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Old 2012-12-14, 14:12   Link #25141
sa547
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I came back from working on something and then this rampage shit came up again.

When the hell this is going to end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I don't think reason has anything to do with it.
Just a level of hate/anger that none of us can identify with.
Mental health is a real problem in the US.
Many institutions were defunded in the 1980s, and it would seem that after that the number of shootings like this one has spiraled upwards out of control.
I maybe wrong, but perhaps it is time to start rethinking that policy.
Yeah, it seems that the real cause of the problem had been ignored as everyone else tries to blame the usual suspects for incidents like these.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:14   Link #25142
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
part of me think it's the Mayan Calender idiots...
They must truly be idiots. When it's the end of the world, you don't go and kill innocents and children! You have an orgy!
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:15   Link #25143
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
I have never understood people who just walk into classrooms or malls or cinemas and shoot the innocent. Why the necessity to ruthlessly steal away their lives? I might sound heartless but if they think their lives suck, why don't they shoot their own heads instead of inflicting pain on others? Are they that desperate to feel in control that they want to have the last bit of "power" before they are shot/arrested by the cops?

I am guessing if their minds are screwed, they are not bound by reasoning anyway.
I find these types of cases fascinating. The vast majority of people have no desire to harm others, so what makes these people different? Or, if they started out like the rest of us, what pushed them over the edge?

Based on a number of cases where past history could be established, it seems like the individuals came to feel isolated and despaired. One particular case from a few years ago was really interesting, because the shooter had a diary of sorts which revealed that even though he was a pretty social guy he felt horribly alone. He also came to resent women because he was always being turned down. He eventually decided to end it all; went into a gym with firearms, shot some women, and then shot himself.

It's fairly well-established that feelings of isolation (or true isolation) are psychologically harmful. I don't know exactly what happens to these people - maybe they lose their grip on reality, or perhaps their personality and values begin to warp. Either way, it's clear that something disengages. As to why they kill others in addition to themselves, who knows? Perhaps it's one sad, final effort to connect and be involved with others in some way.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:16   Link #25144
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sad to say, but from what I'm gathering _an entire kindergarten class_ was... liquidated!

- all unaccounted for
- ~200 shots
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:19   Link #25145
GoddyofAus
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America will never fucking learn. It's Gun Laws are TOO LENIENT.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:21   Link #25146
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I don't think reason has anything to do with it.
Just a level of hate/anger that none of us can identify with.
Mental health is a real problem in the US.
Many institutions were defunded in the 1980s, and it would seem that after that the number of shootings like this one has spiraled upwards out of control.
I maybe wrong, but perhaps it is time to start rethinking that policy.
It's really depressing and exasperating at the same time.

Latest report says the shooter killed one of his own parent before going to the school...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoddyofAus View Post
America will never fucking learn. It's Gun Laws are TOO LENIENT.
Don't even fking start that here, you want to talk gun control, there are existing and proper threads for it.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:23   Link #25147
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I find these types of cases fascinating. The vast majority of people have no desire to harm others, so what makes these people different? Or, if they started out like the rest of us, what pushed them over the edge?

Based on a number of cases where past history could be established, it seems like the individuals came to feel isolated and despaired. One particular case from a few years ago was really interesting, because the shooter had a diary of sorts which revealed that even though he was a pretty social guy he felt horribly alone. He also came to resent women because he was always being turned down. He eventually decided to end it all; went into a gym with firearms, shot some women, and then shot himself.

It's fairly well-established that feelings of isolation (or true isolation) are psychologically harmful. I don't know exactly what happens to these people - maybe they lose their grip on reality, or perhaps their personality and values begin to warp. Either way, it's clear that something disengages. As to why they kill others in addition to themselves, who knows? Perhaps it's one sad, final effort to connect and be involved with others in some way.
I can see where you're coming from, and I do know that there is a bigger issue lurking but it's very hard for me to try and understand and accept that when innocent lives, especially children are involved.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:23   Link #25148
Destined_Fate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
I have never understood people who just walk into classrooms or malls or cinemas and shoot the innocent. Why the necessity to ruthlessly steal away their lives? I might sound heartless but if they think their lives suck, why don't they shoot their own heads instead of inflicting pain on others? Are they that desperate to feel in control that they want to have the last bit of "power" before they are shot/arrested by the cops?

I am guessing if their minds are screwed, they are not bound by reasoning anyway.
You will never understand why people do some of the things they do. Maybe they were sick, or they just wanted to screw the world because they were screwed over something. In the end it doesn't matter, what's done is done and the next step is to bring justice to the monster and learn to move on from tragedy.

Talking about understanding such selfish people reminds me of my friend who committed suicide earlier this year. I'll never understand why he did it and I'm sure he never even thought how this effected his family or friends just that he wanted to end it for himself, consequences or others being effected be screwed.

Had good times with him but I don't think I'll ever bring myself to forgive him for killing himself since his family still loved him and were more than willing to help him make a future for himself.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:23   Link #25149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoddyofAus View Post
America will never fucking learn. It's Gun Laws are TOO LENIENT.
gun control has nothing to do with the overall issue, as someone said earlier I think the bigger issue is mental health in the United States. About 1 in 4 American adults suffer from a mental disease of some sort. Now that number could be so high because we have so many different things classified as mental disorders now but I think it says we need to take better care of ourselves as a people to improve the society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I don't think reason has anything to do with it.
Just a level of hate/anger that none of us can identify with.
Mental health is a real problem in the US.
Many institutions were defunded in the 1980s, and it would seem that after that the number of shootings like this one has spiraled upwards out of control.
I maybe wrong, but perhaps it is time to start rethinking that policy.
That is probably right, usually stuff like this doesn't revolve around reason but emotions and anger. Its near impossible to think of any logical reason that would lead to a person acting in this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
part of me think it's the Mayan Calender idiots...
If that was the reason at all behind this I am not sure how I would feel ... somewhere between anger and disappointment at the stupidity of people I guess. I have never understood the logic of that either, killing one self before the supposed end of the world, the worlds ending anyway so why kill yourself? Maybe I try and use logic and reason in too many things because I have a terribly hard time trying to understand people half of the time anymore.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:28   Link #25150
Destined_Fate
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There's only so much you can do, the attacker was very determined to carry it out. I do wonder though if any of the adults tried to at least get the children away even if it cost them their own lives. Maybe I'm naive but I would gladly lay down my life if it meant saving the lives of many, especially children who have done no wrong.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:28   Link #25151
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoddyofAus View Post
America will never fucking learn. It's Gun Laws are TOO LENIENT.
It's already illegal to bring a gun into a school.
CT has an assault weapons ban, so does NJ.
No gun law was able to stop this, so how is another one going to do anything.

This whole issue is about people, not objects.
Worst school massacre in the US was done with three bombs, and those were illegal at the time.

We need to deal with the issue of the mentally ill, and we need to deal with it now.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:29   Link #25152
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
If that was the reason at all behind this I am not sure how I would feel ... somewhere between anger and disappointment at the stupidity of people I guess. I have never understood the logic of that either, killing one self before the supposed end of the world, the worlds ending anyway so why kill yourself?
part of me believes that solely because of what happened with Y2K...
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:34   Link #25153
kyp275
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According to NBC, the shooter's mother was a teacher at the school, and was also killed.

Put two and two together, I'm guessing the shooter killed the dad first at home, then went to the school his mom teaches at, killed her and her class together.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:35   Link #25154
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No gun law was able to stop this, so how is another one going to do anything.
Make the investigation process more thorough, make applicants for guns and their permits go through more tests and/or evaluation, subject them to yearly tests of competence (for skill with handling and/or mental analysis), or the "nuclear option" of banning guns entirely... there's a lot more that we could be doing that we're currently not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
We need to deal with the issue of the mentally ill, and we need to deal with it now.
While I agree that there's a problem with how we're handling mental health care, I don't know that we should be so quick to write off anyone who does something like this as being mentally ill. Granted, I'll admit that in this case it's hard to imagine how it could have been anything else.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:38   Link #25155
GDB
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
In the end it doesn't matter, what's done is done and the next step is to bring justice to the monster and learn to move on from tragedy.
But it does matter. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. By just shrugging and moving on, nothing changes. If a reason can be discovered, prevention becomes possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No gun law was able to stop this, so how is another one going to do anything.
This is all I'm going to say on the matter, since it has its own topic, but this. A law means nothing if it isn't enforced. Or in other words, quality over quantity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Worst school massacre in the US was done with three bombs, and those were illegal at the time.
I really hope this is just awkward wording/reading on my part, and you aren't implying they were illegal then, but are legal now.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:44   Link #25156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Don't even fking start that here, you want to talk gun control, there are existing and proper threads for it.
I'm sorry - but - the gun control debate is so freaking relevant to the current news. If you don't like it, come up with a SYSTEM to prevent these kinds of incidents from happening again. At the very least, decrease them in both frequency and "effectiveness". By the time a person is determined to be screwed in the head --- he had already done the unthinkable.

Since Columbine, high schools themselves have barricaded themselves as fortresses of security. Perhaps elementary schools should be doing the same. But guess what? That diverts spending from the actual education of these schools.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:46   Link #25157
GoddyofAus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
It's already illegal to bring a gun into a school.
CT has an assault weapons ban, so does NJ.
No gun law was able to stop this, so how is another one going to do anything.

This whole issue is about people, not objects.
Worst school massacre in the US was done with three bombs, and those were illegal at the time.

We need to deal with the issue of the mentally ill, and we need to deal with it now.
So the possibility the suspect can drive across a border, buy the automatic rifle he wants to use then drive back over is completely irrelevant, is it?
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:54   Link #25158
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Fully automatic weapons are illegal across the entire country since the 1930s without a special permit (that covers collectors, historians, and museum collections for the most part).

What weapons were used is a better question if this debate is to be brought up (again). Last time people were going off about a AR-15 that in fact jammed and the deaths were caused by a shotgun and pistol instead of the "feared, nasty, deadly, 'assault weapon'".
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:57   Link #25159
Destined_Fate
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Learning of the past does nothing for anyone else since the past will always repeat itself. All you can do is maintain that you will never fall to such lows as that monster and if the need ever arises you would have at least done everything you possibly to prevent or be prepared for situations like these that are, in the end, out of your hands.

I love gun rights but I do admit that it's very easy to get certain types of guns. Went to a Gun show and they didn't even need to check me other than a flash of ID because they weren't sure I was an adult(I look very young) and that I had the money for what I wanted. Not like they were required to do much of anything but they were free, if they wanted, to deny me sale if they weren't comfortable with my demeanor.

Than again I wasn't really trying to buy anything "big" that many point to as main offenders. Though those guns that are "supposedly" semi-automatic result in far less deaths than just hand guns you can get from any gun store. Something to think about.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:58   Link #25160
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
I'm sorry - but - the gun control debate is so freaking relevant to the current news. If you don't like it, come up with a SYSTEM to prevent these kinds of incidents from happening again. At the very least, decrease them in both frequency and "effectiveness". By the time a person is determined to be screwed in the head --- he had already done the unthinkable.
What I don't like is people using this tragedy to drive their own political points, not to mention when it's the fking wrong thread, it's just downright disgusting to me.

You want to have that discussion, by all means, go ahead, but do it IN THE RIGHT FRAKKING THREAD instead of derailing this one.
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