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View Poll Results: Chuunibyou Demo Koi ga Shitai! - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 33 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 31 31.31%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 20.20%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 2.02%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.01%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.01%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.02%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-14, 14:41   Link #101
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Actually, no that's not really a safe social situation.
Sure it is. This anime has delved into ways to make Rikka's club of practical value to the rest of the school while maintaining it as a safe outlet for chuunibyou acting out.

First there was the clean the pool idea. If the club members had managed to do that successfully, it would have put the club in a more positive light for the school.

Then there is how Shinka used the club to help in a school festival. Remember the whole idea to have Yuuta and Rikka face each other in their chuunibyou personas as part of an entertaining act for other students?

There are practical ways that you can have Rikka's club be useful to the rest of the school, while still maintaining it as a safe social situation for Rikka and friends to embrace their inner chuunibyou.


Quote:
That does NOT solve the problem at all. In such condition, Rikka would actually act the opposite as she should be: instead of accepting reality, she puts a "reality" facade simply for society convenience, and remains on her longing feelings for her father.

Rikka's eccentricity is beyond just having fun: it basically overwrote her personality and how she deal with everyone, not just people who are close to chuunibyou whatsoever.
Which means: Rikka has to switch out from her chuunibyou, but also has to define the antics in a complete different fashion.
She needed to learn to turn them off yes. But she didn't need to go absolute "cold turkey" with them. Which seems to be what happened. And we now see the sorry state it's left her in.


Quote:
That does NOT solve the problem at all. In such condition, Rikka would actually act the opposite as she should be: instead of accepting reality, she puts a "reality" facade simply for society convenience, and remains on her longing feelings for her father.
I disagree. It would provide a chuunibyou basis for Rikka re-learning normalcy. It would be Yuuta using the same sort of method that he used to successfully help Rikka pass her Math test.

With my idea, chuunibyou ("avoiding the Administration's detection") similarly becomes the motivation to learn to be normal.

At a future point, once normalcy has netted Rikka some concrete benefits (such as new friends, better marks in school, etc...), you could switch to "See? There's more ways to be happy than just through chuunibyou. I think it's time, Rikka, that you truly accepted reality. I think your father would want that. I also think if he was here right now, he'd be proud of how far you've already come."

I think that would be a better and more gradual approach than the crude, cold turkey one that Touka basically talked Yuuta into using.


In any event, Rikka needs to give up on reaching her father in "The Unseen Horizon", yes. But that doesn't mean that the whole of her chuunibyou persona has to go with it.


Quote:
Except that even when people keep reminding Rikka to stop her antics in public (not outright saying to stop being chuuni altogether), she -keeps- acting like that. That really shows how far that behaviour got anchored in her.
It's because she doesn't know any other way to be. Rikka needs to re-learn normalcy, yes. But she can do that without discarding her chuunibyou completely.

And I already said that Rikka needs to learn that some social situations are inappropriate ones for acting out in a chuuni way. So I'm not sure why you're even raising a work situation. We agree on that.


Quote:
Actually no, it seems it is her chuunibyou that leads to difficulties in math: Rikka has trouble to grasp math concept, which is initially disctracted by her imagination.
Come on. Plenty of people have their minds wander off to more entertaining thoughts when they try to study subjects they don't like. That's just normal. Rikka just doesn't like math, so when she tries to focus on it, her mind naturally wanders off to something that entertains her more.

Rikka would likely have struggled at Math with our without her chuunibyou. Math is one of the most talent/interest-based subjects there is. I can't think of any subject more polarizing than Math - Some students genuinely love it, and others can't stand it. Rikka is likely in the second group.

If chuunibyou had such a disastrous impact on Rikka's school work, it should affect all subjects equally, not just Math disproportionately. I think it's much more logical to think that Rikka simply has a weakness at Math.



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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I posted this in the image thread already, but I think this perfectly sums up the situation:

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
There's nothing unhealthy about a moderate amount of escapism. And I'm frankly amazed that this is something I have to write to a fellow anime fan of all people...


Quote:
It's a fallacy to assume Rikka will be fine just because another person with different circumstances can handle it.
Rikka has a great support structure in place. There's little reason to think she can't handle it with the support of other people who can handle it. I'm not committing a "fallacy" at all.


Quote:
For example, you can't assume one person won't become drunk and act irrationally after drinking a certain amount of alcohol just because someone with a stronger constitution can handle it.
I don't see much reason to think that Dekomori has a "stronger constitution" than Rikka does. Who was the person brought to tears in this episode? And who was the person who sung her father's favorite song right after getting told off by her brand new boyfriend just last episode?

Rikka is not a weak person. She's stronger than some people are giving her credit for, I think
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Old 2012-12-14, 15:06   Link #102
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sure it is. This anime has delved into ways to make Rikka's club of practical value to the rest of the school while maintaining it as a safe outlet for chuunibyou acting out.

First there was the clean the pool idea. If the club members had managed to do that successfully, it would have put the club in a more positive light for the school.

Then there is how Shinka used the club to help in a school festival. Remember the whole idea to have Yuuta and Rikka face each other in their chuunibyou personas as part of an entertaining act for other students?

There are practical ways that you can have Rikka's club be useful to the rest of the school, while still maintaining it as a safe social situation for Rikka and friends to embrace their inner chuunibyou.
Actually, that's absolutely not what clubs are expected to be: they are solely allowed a room for their distinct and own activities that are there to focus and put up students interest and talents.

As far as it goes, Rikka's club had to undergo chores in order to have their teacher's good graces. Past that, the club doesn't contribute anything to their own members, except just for passing time together.

Shinka was scouted by the drama club, which basically is more fitting to that kind of impersonating performance.
Really, Rikka's club doesn't contribute anything nor in the specifc and general sense.

Quote:
I disagree. It would provide a chuunibyou basis for Rikka re-learning normalcy. It would be Yuuta using the same sort of method that he used to successfully help Rikka pass her Math test.
No, it wouldn't work: Yuuta managed to make Rikka pass because he actually use her chuunibyou to his advantage. How are you going to appeal Rikka's interest for the -reality- using chuunibyou? That's actually going backwards.
In fact, the "covert" method would actually give a proper reason for her to stay in such state, instead of moving forward, as "if acting a bit normal can justify the chuuni most of the time" would severely consolidate the chuuni aspect.

It would absolutely require something that would offset her chuuni interest, to which require an actual change of perseption of reality, instead of faking a "normal behaviour".
Quote:
In any event, Rikka needs to give up on reaching her father in "The Unseen Horizon", yes. But that doesn't mean that the whole of her chuunibyou persona has to go with it.
It is a two fold problem: her chuunibyou is intweened with her longing for her father, and the said behaviour will lead to further problem.
The fact her chuunibyou origin was due to this incident tells a lot about how dear she holds that setup, to the point you cannot make her get over it without putting a dent on that setup. Otherwise, asking her to drop the chuuni act wouldn't affect her that much. It is exactly because she needs that to connect through her father "possible existence" that it is literally carved in her.
She obviously can have some quirks, but the "chuunibyou" itself is really too taxing for her relatives and herself.
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It's because she doesn't know any other way to be. Rikka needs to re-learn normalcy, yes. But she can do that without discarding her chuunibyou completely.
Keeping a catalyst for a personality issue is just not the best idea ever. It is like asking a junkie to act properly with heroine just 2 inch away from them. Even if my analogy is arguably different in term of psychological impacts and solutions, you get the picture: Rikka doesn't need to turn into a chibi Touka whatsoever, but she needs to clear the chuunibyou to "learn" normalcy. Keeping remnants of the same kind is not healthy.
However, -if- she defines her chuunibyou in a complete different fashion (as in true fun without any underlying purpose, which can be turned off at will), that would be a different story. Her current chuunibyou is nowhere close to be that, because of the very nature and origin of her chuunibyou.

That's why she ought to "change" or adopt another form of such eccentricity, or completely disconnect it from her longing for her father, the latter being extremely unlikely, unless if the purpose of her chuunibyou is overwhelmed by a different one, which could be tied to Yuuta. But so long it is exclusively tied with her father, no dice.
Quote:
And I already said that Rikka needs to learn that some social situations are inappropriate ones for acting out in a chuuni way. So I'm not sure why you're even raising a work situation. We agree on that.
The wording is exactly why I think we do not agree: you think "some situations" shouldn't warrant chuunibyou. I feel the opposite: only few instances chuunibyou is fine, the rest has to be dealt differently.
Generally speaking, such behaviour would be shared with people of the same interest in their own private space. Having a switch off only for the sake of appearance isn't going to cut it. The chuunibyou should actually be the "persona" to draw times to times not the other way around.
Quote:
There's nothing unhealthy about a moderate amount of escapism. And I'm frankly amazed that this is something I have to write to a fellow anime fan of all people...
This is because it isn't what you can call "moderate".
Quote:
Rikka has a great support structure in place. There's little reason to think she can't handle it with the support of other people who can handle it. I'm not committing a "fallacy" at all.
That's the very problem: Shinka and Yuuta had to deal with their own chuunibyou alone and could get over it due to their own epiphany regarding that.
Rikka however is highly dependant of people who are close to her, and should she can't stick with them (such like what happened to Touka), there will be major issues on the long run.
Really, the chuuni cases aren't exactly a clear cut and is highly dependant of where it came from and how the said person deal with it, hence why Yuuta had far less issues to discard it than Rikka.
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Old 2012-12-14, 15:50   Link #103
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Uo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Actually, that's absolutely not what clubs are expected to be: they are solely allowed a room for their distinct and own activities that are there to focus and put up students interest and talents.

As far as it goes, Rikka's club had to undergo chores in order to have their teacher's good graces. Past that, the club doesn't contribute anything to their own members, except just for passing time together.

Shinka was scouted by the drama club, which basically is more fitting to that kind of impersonating performance.
Really, Rikka's club doesn't contribute anything nor in the specifc and general sense.
I think you're being overly harsh here, as you are about most points in this discussion.

The fact is that the anime found ways for Rikka's club to be productive. So there would have been no harm in Rikka's club continuing on, and providing a safe venue for Chuunibyou acting out.

You are arguing from some sort of Japanese student club ideal that even anime shows as serious as Hyouka don't seem to subscribe to. Why hold Chuunibyou to a higher standard than the vast majority of other high school anime out there?


Quote:
No, it wouldn't work:
I disagree. I think it would work.


Quote:
Yuuta managed to make Rikka pass because he actually use her chuunibyou to his advantage. How are you going to appeal Rikka's interest for the -reality- using chuunibyou? That's actually going backwards.
No it's not. It's simply giving her an added incentive to try to be normal. It can make "being normal" something of a game to her. I think that through this approach she would eventually see the benefits of acting normal. Honestly, I think that it's quite possible that this could lead Rikka into having an epiphany moment of her own.

And isn't it better if Rikka's maturation into a well-adjusted adult comes from within her, and on the basis of her own evolving longings and desires, than through some sort of strict social conformity forced on her by her sister and boyfriend?

I think you're being overly strict and severe in your assessment of Rikka and what's good for her. She clearly isn't happy in this episode. I think it's pretty clear that the anime is showing how Yuuta and Touka's approach has caused Rikka to go from one unhealthy extreme to another. No, a more moderate approach would be better, and I think that's precisely what we're going to see next episode.

We've now seen what your "scrap chuunibyou" approach would do to Rikka, and it's not a pretty picture. Far, far from it.


Look, Rikka is going to move on from her father's death at some point. It's inevitable. She'll find other people to love and care for, and other people will love and care for her (and in fact, Rikka has already done this). Her father may always be an important part of her life and sense of self, but as long as Rikka finds other people to have strong bonds with, the effect of her father's passing will gradually decline in time.

And that means that chuunibyou can become a fine and safe way for Rikka to find fun, enjoyment, and pleasantness in life. That's not something that should be taken away from her.


Also, I have to say, I'm facepalming hard at the alocholism and heroine comparisons. Good grief, guys. Seriously...
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:17   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Look, Rikka is going to move on from her father's death at some point. It's inevitable. She'll find other people to love and care for, and other people will love and care for her (and in fact, Rikka has already done this). Her father may always be an important part of her life and sense of self, but as long as Rikka finds other people to have strong bonds with, the effect of her father's passing will gradually decline in time.
Right... you mean like how Rikka moved on from her father's death from all these years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And that means that chuunibyou can become a fine and safe way for Rikka to find fun, enjoyment, and pleasantness in life. That's not something that should be taken away from her.


Also, I have to say, I'm facepalming hard at the alocholism and heroine comparisons. Good grief, guys. Seriously...
You're missing the point. Rikka's chuunibiyou comes with trying to find her father in the Unseen Horizon. This is not like Dekomori's chuuni who does it for fun or hell, even Kumin who admits it's fun and plays along. They are fine, because they use their chuunibiyou in exactly the way you suggest.

I am not suggesting that Rikka has to become completely normal. What I am suggesting is that Rikka gives up her unique chunnibiyou fantasy of the Unseen Horizon. You don't seem to understand that right now Rikka's fantasies and the Unseen Horizon with her father come together and have been for this entire series, and however many years that is in the series.

The "Unseen Horizon" has to go, and her friends have to help to make sure it goes. Perhaps they don't have to force it down her throat the way Touka does and can be more subtle in challenging Rikka like how Nana-chan does it, but they can't keep blindly encouraging that belief.

Once the Unseen Horizon is gone, then Rikka can have all the fun she wants with her friends.
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Old 2012-12-14, 17:09   Link #105
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This is an anime where I really wish I knew how the domestic Japanese audience would interpret what's going on. I'm no expert on Japan, but from what I gather, Rikka's behavior is seriously NOT okay by Japanese standards. Japanese teenagers have their ways of rebelling or acting out or whatever, but my impression is that they'll do that *outside* of school, but in school, they tend to wear the uniform and not act out the way Rikka does. In other words, in a young part of Tokyo, you'll see teenagers in outlandish outfits, but during school, they'll be back in their uniform obeying their teachers, after blowing off some steam on the weekends. Indeed, I think Rikka's outright defiance of her elders would look very, very off--simply answering a teacher's questions while "in character" would by itself look defiant.

Again, this is more a gut reaction on my part to what I know of Japan, but I don't think it's unreasonable.

However, anime has frequently subverted a lot of the "normal" rules by which Japanese society actually works, and before the recent drama, we see a school where Rikka's behavior is more or less tolerated, even accepted. And this series subverts other "normal" rules in all sorts of ways--vast amounts of comic violence, Touka's "adult" games of house, how Yuuta's mother acts, etc.

But we see the real world come back, with a vengeance in the last few episodes. Suddenly the rules seem to have changed, and hence Yuuta has a 180 degree course correction.

I quite frankly don't know if this is a brilliant move on the show--questioning some of the basic premises of anime as a genre, that there can be this alternate Japanese universe filled with extraordinarily independent teenagers, adult authority nowhere to be found, and all sorts of even more supernatural phenomena going on, feeding into that view, and then, showing, BAM!, that such a world can't so easily exist.

Or is it just inconsistent writing?

And coming back to my first point, how would a *Japanese* viewer see this series. And would there be a difference between a "regular" viewer and an otaku.
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Old 2012-12-14, 17:52   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Right... you mean like how Rikka moved on from her father's death from all these years?
Rikka hasn't moved on from it yet, at least in part, because of the unusual circumstances surrounding it (which her family frankly played a major role in creating). That, plus there's every indication that Rikka never had many friends before, which is not the case any more. A great personal lost is much harder to weather when you don't have many other close people in your life. But as you create more friendships and relationships in life, it becomes less difficult to move on from past lost.

Furthermore, I think that Rikki found her coping mechanism to be enjoyable in and of itself. She found a lot of it simply "cool". That's why she fell for "Dark Flame Master", remember?

This is something that I don't think you and Klash appreciate enough.



Quote:
You're missing the point.
No, I'm not. I'm well aware of the dangers of the Unseen Horizon portion of Rikka's chuunibyou, and have made that clear before on this thread. Yes, she needs to put the Unseen Horizon behind her. Nonetheless, comparing Rikka's chuunibyou to something like alcoholism or heroine addiction is simply ridiculous. It's an over-the-top comparison.


Quote:
This is not like Dekomori's chuuni who does it for fun or hell, even Kumin who admits it's fun and plays along. They are fine, because they use their chuunibiyou in exactly the way you suggest.
And so does Rikka, to some extent, for the reasons I mentioned above.

We are now seeing what being denied chuunibyou has done to Rikka.

There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, in spite of what you and Klash (and possibly some others) are arguing.



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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
This is an anime where I really wish I knew how the domestic Japanese audience would interpret what's going on. I'm no expert on Japan, but from what I gather, Rikka's behavior is seriously NOT okay by Japanese standards. Japanese teenagers have their ways of rebelling or acting out or whatever, but my impression is that they'll do that *outside* of school, but in school, they tend to wear the uniform and not act out the way Rikka does. In other words, in a young part of Tokyo, you'll see teenagers in outlandish outfits, but during school, they'll be back in their uniform obeying their teachers, after blowing off some steam on the weekends. Indeed, I think Rikka's outright defiance of her elders would look very, very off--simply answering a teacher's questions while "in character" would by itself look defiant.
When has Rikka been outright defiant of her elders, with the exception of her family which she obviously had just cause for feeling resentful towards? When have we seen her act out in-class?
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:06   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
When has Rikka been outright defiant of her elders, with the exception of her family which she obviously had just cause for feeling resentful towards? When have we seen her act out in-class?
When she pretends she has multiple personalities to have enough members for her group to her teacher. The teacher deflects it by talking to her in English, but I doubt other Japanese teaches would handle such a response with such a soft teach. I can tell you for sure that a lot of American teachers would find doing something like that downright disrespectful (it would come off as, you have such contempt for the rules that you won't even *try* to give a plausible explanation), and I'm pretty sure there there's a much higher tolerance for wiseassness from high school students in the US than in Japan.

And from one of the lite episodes, it's clear that not all of Rikka's teachers are so tolerant of her antics.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:09   Link #108
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When she pretends she has multiple personalities to have enough members for her group to her teacher.
Come on, that was totally comical. I think most reasonable teachers would go "Nice try, Rikka, but you're going to have to get a real fifth member to keep the club going, sorry" and laughed it off. That's definitely how my father, who was a teacher for 30 years, would have handled it.

Also, that's not even technically in-class. That was when Rikka and her club met with a teacher outside of class hours.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:23   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Come on, that was totally comical. I think most reasonable teachers would go "Nice try, Rikka, but you're going to have to get a real fifth member to keep the club going, sorry" and laughed it off. That's definitely how my father, who was a teacher for 30 years, would have handled it.

Also, that's not even technically in-class. That was when Rikka and her club met with a teacher outside of class hours.
Sure, it was comical, i.e. not a "real" situation, like all the slapstick violence going around. But Rikka NEVER turns it off, and I doubt your father ever met someone like Rikka. In the context of the world created by the anime, that's actually okay, but it would NOT be okay in the real world. Real teachers who deal with someone like Rikka would either think she's faking it out of stubbornness (itself a problem), or actually contact a real shrink.

Indeed, knowing how downright cruel teenagers would be, the real problem would be her peers; in a real high school, American or Japanese, Rikka would be ostracized by her peers for being, well, crazy. And indeed, that's what happens to Rikka before she meets Yuuta.

But in this alternate universe, it's okay, and it works out. Until the last two episodes, at least. And that's why I see the shift from comedy to drama as maybe just too large a river to bridge.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:26   Link #110
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When she pretends she has multiple personalities to have enough members for her group to her teacher...
If this is the only concrete example that you can come up with, then your claim that Rikka acts out in class is completely baseless. Of course, you're not the only one who has claimed that Rikka has acted out in class, but I don't remember anybody else giving a concrete example, either, so you're not alone there. I gotta agree with Triple_R in that that was played for laughs. I found it extremely funny. And I don't think Rikka would have done that with just any teacher. It seemed to me that that teacher was already predisposed to be understanding and tolerant of Rikka.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:43   Link #111
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Sure, it was comical, i.e. not a "real" situation, like all the slapstick violence going around. But Rikka NEVER turns it off, and I doubt your father ever met someone like Rikka.
In fairness, he almost certainly hasn't. I myself certainly haven't.

But Rikka's chuunibyou is probably not actively problematic enough for most of the teachers to really care about it. I think that Rikka is generally pretty careful about when and where she acts out. In-class, especially during teacher's lectures, she's probably just a very quiet girl.


Quote:
But in this alternate universe, it's okay, and it works out. Until the last two episodes, at least. And that's why I see the shift from comedy to drama as maybe just too large a river to bridge.
You might be right. The mood difference is massive. It's a difficult transition to be sure.

The last episode has a hard job to do, imo. If Chuunibyou pulls it off well, I'll be very impressed.


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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I gotta agree with Triple_R in that that was played for laughs. I found it extremely funny. And I don't think Rikka would have done that with just any teacher. It seemed to me that that teacher was already predisposed to be understanding and tolerant of Rikka.
Good point. Rikka probably had a good sense of that teacher's patience and understanding.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:54   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Good point. Rikka probably had a good sense of that teacher's patience and understanding.
And it's not like she was being "defiant" in the way we would normally think of that term being applied to a high school student in relationship to a teacher, like so much of the behavior that has been portrayed in various anime series over the years. Gosh, aren't there series based on one or more of the students (if not all) in a particular classroom constantly acting rude, obnoxious, and even harassing, if not downright intimidating teachers? Does that sound like Rikka? Not from my perspective. Compared to many of those character types, Rikka seems like a quiet little lamb in class.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:20   Link #113
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I think you're being overly harsh here, as you are about most points in this discussion.

The fact is that the anime found ways for Rikka's club to be productive. So there would have been no harm in Rikka's club continuing on, and providing a safe venue for Chuunibyou acting out.

You are arguing from some sort of Japanese student club ideal that even anime shows as serious as Hyouka don't seem to subscribe to. Why hold Chuunibyou to a higher standard than the vast majority of other high school anime out there?
Rikka's club is "productive" only because they have to do these in order not to be disbanded. The core purpose and activities of the club are not supposed to be groups of teenagers helping teacher staff for the school facilities: it is because they have no choice but to do that in order to keep the club. By no means it was something planned: remember the actual purpose of the club is 1) find an inexistent horizon/magic stuff 2) nap
That's arguably nothing constructive towards students or the school as a whole.

By the way: You are using a meta argument that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I never stated I took other anime any less seriously in term of student council stuff and clubs. In fact, very few are actually serious about that, and of course, chuunibyou doesn't portray a very realistic setup with Nana being okay with such "pointless" clubs.
Really, you really have to think about the japanese culture and the purpose why such clubs are present and highly advertised even by the teacher staff in general.
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I think you're being overly strict and severe in your assessment of Rikka and what's good for her. She clearly isn't happy in this episode. I think it's pretty clear that the anime is showing how Yuuta and Touka's approach has caused Rikka to go from one unhealthy extreme to another. No, a more moderate approach would be better, and I think that's precisely what we're going to see next episode.
The series also shown how desperately Rikka is in her attemp to find her father, to the point no one can reasonably state her situation is healthy.
The real core issue is how her problem is yet to be solved, and fixing her chuunibyou is actually supposed to be a consequence of fixing such issue, not the other around hence why I never said Touka and Yuuta did the best course of action. However, the situation is just as follow: because of that "problem", Rikka is simply not in touch with reality in a reasonable way, to the point it deals collateral damage. And suffice to say, the point isn't to fix her personality but overly handle her problem with by default affects her chuunibyou.

And it is precisely why I kept repeating her current chuunibyou is by no mean what you can't leave her accounted for: it will just be a nagging reminder of what Rikka has lost and not got over yet, which is why I and other people used overexaggerated analogy to make the point across: you -never- leave the very catalyst that leads so abnormal behaviour. That's pretty much inciting that individual to have a relapse (which is why Yuuta had to handle out and cut the chase with Sanae).
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Look, Rikka is going to move on from her father's death at some point. It's inevitable. She'll find other people to love and care for, and other people will love and care for her (and in fact, Rikka has already done this). Her father may always be an important part of her life and sense of self, but as long as Rikka finds other people to have strong bonds with, the effect of her father's passing will gradually decline in time.
And what makes you so sure she will be able to do that? Assuming people don't abandon her sure, but what will happen when she will have to choose a career? What would happen if she has to move out for university and the like?
You are stating that point as if it was a fact she will move on, on her own, despite it isn't as simple as that. And to make things worse, the current situation with her relatives wouldn't move to the slighest if she were to stay in her chuunibyou.
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And that means that chuunibyou can become a fine and safe way for Rikka to find fun, enjoyment, and pleasantness in life. That's not something that should be taken away from her.
But chuunibyou is essentially -not- sane at all, for reasons already explained before. She can have some imagination, escapism, fun time with people. But chuunibyou, especially this kind in such magnitude, is -not- a safe way at all.
I would agree if the series didn't touch any drama at all, and that chuunibyou was used just as a comedy factor without any afterthought (a bit how Okabe's was played in Steins Gate), with it being a mundane stuff sure.
There are reasons why we have such a drastic contrast in the series, with various instance we can actually notice Rikka's loneliness and so forth. Not especially the smoothest transition, but the anime sure have spread points that do not always portray chuunibyou in general as a harmless and glorified behaviour.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:31   Link #114
KLGChaos
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The problem with Rikka's chuunibyou is that to her, it isn't just something fun, like it is was with Dekomori or Yuuta. It's not just escapism. It's completely avoiding reality altogether. With Dekomori and Yuuta and seeing how they interact with other people who aren't Chuu2s, you know that they see it as an act and just something that is/was fun to do. With Rikka, it's different. Though you can infer that she knows it's not real, she's so absorbed in it that it actually makes you wonder whether or not she's actually delusional or not. It's not healthy.

I knew a guy in real life who was like Rikka. He had a somewhat tough home life (a sister who was mentally and physically handicapped, tough parents, etc), so throughout high school he took his escapism (his particular brand was Star Trek, The Next Generation) everywhere. He was a pretty nice guy, but he had problems. He'd pass kids in school at the age of 18 and say he was "shifting to Warp 9". He'd talk into his watch like a communicator. He'd use his calculator as a tricorder in the middle of class. His grades suffered, he was ostracized, and after school he couldn't keep a job because his escapism interfered too much with his personal life. He'd rather skip work to play video games, or even worse, sit there and daydream about Star Trek, than actually try to be productive. He had no ambition to do better because he was happy with his daydreams and spent more time lost in his own mind/delusions than actually trying to do something with his life. Last I heard, about 8 years ago, he tried to commit suicide.

Rikka's on that same slippery slope. For her, the lines between her chuunibyou and real life are blurrier than they are for someone like Dekomori who clearly acts normally when not around others like her (as seen in class). Rikka can't even turn it off when interacting with teachers, it's affecting her school work, etc. What if she got a job? Do you think they'd be happy is she started introducing herself to clients as the Tyrant Evil Eye?

If this weren't a KyoAni production, I'd be half expecting her to slit her wrists in order to get to the Horizon where her father is.
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:24   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
By the way: You are using a meta argument that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I very much beg to differ. You're applying a degree of realism to this show, and to Rikka's character, that's simply out of place, in my opinion.

You can't just dismiss everything that came before the last few episodes. Like it or not, those first few episodes also say something about this fictional world and the people in it.

And one of the things it says is that Rikka having her funky club is no bigger deal than the Food Research Club in Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate or the Classics Club in Hyouka or any other of the numerous half-nonsensical clubs in various anime shows. These clubs are frequently set up for little reason other than to allow friends to goof off in an organized setting. And keep in mind that Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Hyouka could get pretty dramatic/serious at times too.

Certain genre conventions are essentially part of the fictional world we're evaluating here.


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And it is precisely why I kept repeating her current chuunibyou is by no mean what you can't leave her accounted for: it will just be a nagging reminder of what Rikka has lost and not got over yet, which is why I and other people used overexaggerated analogy to make the point across: you -never- leave the very catalyst that leads so abnormal behaviour.
What about the fact that chuunibyou was ultimately the catalyst for Rikka and Yuuta's relationship? As long as Rika and Yuuta are together as girlfriend/boyfriend, their relationship will itself serve as a "nagging reminder" of chuunibyou. Do we want a young couple to look back with regret and shame at what ultimately brought them together?

So unless Rikka and Yuuta intend to separate from each other, I think it would be highly beneficial (if not imperative) for Rikka's chuunibyou to, in a sense, be reformed into something that she can continue to take enjoyment from.

I don't think that Rikka should deny her chuunibyou past, and nor do I think that Rikka should deny chuunibyou itself because it's a key, central element for many of her closest friendships and relationships.


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And what makes you so sure she will be able to do that? Assuming people don't abandon her sure,
Rikka clearly has several people that care deeply about her. I don't think that it's too big of a stretch to think that Rikka will be able to carry at least one or two of those relationships into adulthood.


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And to make things worse, the current situation with her relatives wouldn't move to the slighest if she were to stay in her chuunibyou.
I disagree. It would move as long as Rikka was able to converse normally with them. Again, it's not this either/or extreme that you seem to be promoting. There's a more balanced way to go about this.


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But chuunibyou is essentially -not- sane at all,
Yuuta's not insane. He never was. I doubt that Mori Summer was insane. So saying that chuunibyou is downright insane is just silly, in my view.


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She can have some imagination, escapism, fun time with people. But chuunibyou, especially this kind in such magnitude, is -not- a safe way at all.
The magnitude it was at was a problem, yes. We all seem to agree that Rikka needed an "off switch". Where we differ is that I think it's fine, and perhaps even healthy, if Rikka turns that switch back "on" from time-to-time, whereas you seem to think that Rikka should press the "off" switch, and leave the lights out forever.

Well, if that "turn chuunibyou off forever" is the impression this anime wants to give us, then this is one bizarre way of trying to convey it. The way this episode portrays current Rikka certainly doesn't support that impression much.
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:26   Link #116
novalysis
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
If this weren't a KyoAni production, I'd be half expecting her to slit her wrists in order to get to the Horizon where her father is.
There'd be Angst Fanfics writing this sort of tragedy for Chuunibyou in great detail, mark my words.
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Old 2012-12-14, 21:07   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I very much beg to differ. You're applying a degree of realism to this show, and to Rikka's character, that's simply out of place, in my opinion.
The series has taken a severe turn toward realistic since it's start.

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And one of the things it says is that Rikka having her funky club is no bigger deal than the Food Research Club in Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate or the Classics Club in Hyouka or any other of the numerous half-nonsensical clubs in various anime shows. These clubs are frequently set up for little reason other than to allow friends to goof off in an organized setting. And keep in mind that Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Hyouka could get pretty dramatic/serious at times too.
1. Neither of them have "dealing with reality" as a major theme. "Accepting reality" has been discussed extensively, and the fact that their club is not productive is not something that gets mentioned once and brushed aside.
2. Clubs that don't do anything are common in anime. It's a nice happy fluffy fantasy. This is a series that deals a fair bit with reconciling reality with fantasy.

With those two in mind. May I suggest that, like how reality is crashing down on Rikka, reality is crashing down on Chuu2.

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What about the fact that chuunibyou was ultimately the catalyst for Rikka and Yuuta's relationship? As long as Rika and Yuuta are together as girlfriend/boyfriend, their relationship will itself serve as a "nagging reminder" of chuunibyou. Do we want a young couple to look back with regret and shame at what ultimately brought them together?
I don't think they should look back with shame. I think they should look bac sorta like how some people look back at The Soviet Union with "He who does not miss the USSR has no heart, he who wants it back has no brain."

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So unless Rikka and Yuuta intend to separate from each other, I think it would be highly beneficial (if not imperative) for Rikka's chuunibyou to, in a sense, be reformed into something that she can continue to take enjoyment from.
I don't think "reforming" is the right way to say it. "Reject and later bring it back just for fun" is better. She has to accept reality fully.

Also, that aside, would she take enjoyment from it though? It's a coping mechanism that is closely related to family problems and her dead father. She has fun, but would she enjoy it later, or would it be a pretty nasty reminder?

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I don't think that Rikka should deny her chuunibyou past, and nor do I think that Rikka should deny chuunibyou itself because it's a key, central element for many of her closest friendships and relationships.
While I don't really see why she should deny her chuunibyou past, she has to reject her chuunibyou and accept reality. If she continues her chuunibyou antics, it shouldn't be more than roleplay distinct from her personal reality.

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I disagree. It would move as long as Rikka was able to converse normally with them. Again, it's not this either/or extreme that you seem to be promoting. There's a more balanced way to go about this.
To converse normally, either she has to fake accepting reality to them (bad), or accept reality. There isn't really a way around accepting reality.

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Yuuta's not insane. He never was. I doubt that Mori Summer was insane. So saying that chuunibyou is downright insane is just silly, in my view.
Yuuta's or Shinka's probably weren't insanity, but Rikka rejected and actively ran away from reality, not just acted like it wasn't real.

Going around pretending to be a Jedi or a Ninja or something isn't insane. It's actually quite fun, but believing that you are a Jedi or a Ninja is a problem.

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The magnitude it was at was a problem, yes. We all seem to agree that Rikka needed an "off switch". Where we differ is that I think it's fine, and perhaps even healthy, if Rikka turns that switch back "on" from time-to-time, whereas you seem to think that Rikka should press the "off" switch, and leave the lights out forever.
She needs to turn her delusions off forever. Doesn't mean that she has to stop acting weird forever.

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Well, if that "turn chuunibyou off forever" is the impression this anime wants to give us, then this is one bizarre way of trying to convey it. The way this episode portrays current Rikka certainly doesn't support that impression much.
I disagree.

I don't see anything against turning her delusions off forever, what I see is against turning her delusional activity off forever, i.e., she should still have fun pretending, but it should be pretending. No where am I getting the vibe that Rikka should keep honestly searching of her father and running away from reality.
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Old 2012-12-14, 21:22   Link #118
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I very much beg to differ. You're applying a degree of realism to this show, and to Rikka's character, that's simply out of place, in my opinion.
Then, why the very same show does apply the sense of realism more often than not?
Like I said, I wouldn't even bother with this discussion if the series was solely destined for a fun ride. However, the said series also hinted at several occasions that the "fun time" isn't the sole point, and something less happy go lucky was set, ever since Yuuta realized that Rikka had barely any friends.
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You can't just dismiss everything that came before the last few episodes. Like it or not, those first few episodes also say something about this fictional world and the people in it.
This is exactly because I didn't dismiss anything pror the few episodes that I was barely phased by the change of direction of the said series.
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And one of the things it says is that Rikka having her funky club is no bigger deal than the Food Research Club in Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate or the Classics Club in Hyouka or any other of the numerous half-nonsensical clubs in various anime shows. These clubs are frequently set up for little reason other than to allow friends to goof off in an organized setting. And keep in mind that Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Hyouka could get pretty dramatic/serious at times too.
Except KoiChoco setup is hardly anything close to what Hyouka and Chu2Koi were actually portraying. In fact, I can't even consider a single bit of realism approach in this series. Meanwhile, the classic club did cover subjects related to their club and contributed with an anthology. On the other hand, Rikka's club has barely anything of that kind, and their performance at their school festival was solely due to Shinka personal agenda to steal limelight from the cheerleader club.

As it stands, the club hardly had any activity and surely didn't contribute anything as a club. As for the characters, that's certainly another story.
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What about the fact that chuunibyou was ultimately the catalyst for Rikka and Yuuta's relationship? As long as Rika and Yuuta are together as girlfriend/boyfriend, their relationship will itself serve as a "nagging reminder" of chuunibyou. Do we want a young couple to look back with regret and shame at what ultimately brought them together?

So unless Rikka and Yuuta intend to separate from each other, I think it would be highly beneficial (if not imperative) for Rikka's chuunibyou to, in a sense, be reformed into something that she can continue to take enjoyment from.
Actually, if their relationship evolves beyond just being "partners in chuunibyou", that wouldn't be a problem which actually occured there, as Rikka didn't see her relationship with Yuuta as "chuunibyou" after realizing she loves him. In fact, after her discussion with Shinka, she actually was fending off, so it isn't really connected that much anymore, otherwise she wouldn't be able to be around Yuuta in this episode like she did with Sanae.

And that's actually what I was stating from the very beginning: Rikka -current- chuunibyou needs to be changed, due to the nature of the former. Just hiding it would not fix the problem: her behaviour needs tweaks, that's far as it goes. And for that, she need to address the initial problem that lead her to turn into a chuunibyou girl.
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I don't think that Rikka should deny her chuunibyou past, and nor do I think that Rikka should deny chuunibyou itself because it's a key, central element for many of her closest friendships and relationships.
Rikka cannot act like a middle schooler forever. She has to let it behind her, otherwise she will never get over things despite the fun she forcefully try to have there.
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Rikka clearly has several people that care deeply about her. I don't think that it's too big of a stretch to think that Rikka will be able to carry at least one or two of those relationships into adulthood.
That still doesn't address the problem of how uncertain she will be able to "graduate" from it on her own accord, especially when you have someone like Sanae, who despite knowing full well what she does is all fiction and fantasies, she hammers it down.
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I disagree. It would move as long as Rikka was able to converse normally with them. Again, it's not this either/or extreme that you seem to be promoting. There's a more balanced way to go about this.
That's exactly the problem: Rikka is unable to do that. Rikka started to opens a little with Yuuta because he can interact with her with a chuuni perspective, and even that, it isn't like Yuuta could interact with "normal rikka" until the eyepatch incident occured.
If Rikka had just "hard time" to have some normal behaviour, it wouldn't be as distressful. However, as the show has shown so far, her chuunibyou is basically permanent thus far, even when she is -alone-. That is really too deep rooted to expect her to act normally conveniently.
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Yuuta's not insane. He never was. I doubt that Mori Summer was insane. So saying that chuunibyou is downright insane is just silly, in my view.
Scratch that, I should have used the word "healthy" like my previous posts. In any case, Yuuta and Shinka did get over their personal chuunibyou since they know full well that such behaviour would be detrimental for them on the long run, especially their reasons' (at least, Yuuta's) aren't anything as severe and rooted as Rikka's.
The catch is that they still can "use" it for fun at times, but that definitely proves how different their cases were compared to Rikka's. Again the point stands: Chuunibyou behaviour is not a socially acceptable behaviour, nor for the involved individual, nor for society in general, especially in Japan, where personal space, humility and quietness are expected from everyone (which isn't an unique set of value for that country either).

Heck, even yuuta knew it when he was in his chuunibyou period, as he bailed the very moment he saw that policeman. Rikka would definitely ignore him.
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The magnitude it was at was a problem, yes. We all seem to agree that Rikka needed an "off switch". Where we differ is that I think it's fine, and perhaps even healthy, if Rikka turns that switch back "on" from time-to-time, whereas you seem to think that Rikka should press the "off" switch, and leave the lights out forever.
Nope, you didn't get what I was trying to point out: the off switch is not going to do anything. What Rikka needs is to -change- the light bulb, more importantly its filament.
To illustrate my analogy: think a light bulb with the light as the "displayed behaviour", and the filament as the catalyst of such behaviour, while the bulb itself is the individual. Assuming the filment is going haywire (core issue for Rikka), the light you get isn't really doing any good, giving a funky green instead of blue (chuunibyou). Change the filament without changing the bulb in its entirety and you fix the light emitted.
A off switch actually implies the chuunibyou is still there, but would be used at will, which still means that the problem why the chuunibyou appeared is -still- present.
And what Touka and Yuuta tried was rather put a filter on Rikka's behaviour hoping the issue would be fixed as a follow, despite it won't be that easely (in my analogy, they rather tried to cover the light bulb with a blue hue plastic instead of fixing the core problem, the filament).

What I think primordial in the conclusion of the series is that Rikka has to get over her personal problem, which will obviously change the purpose of her chuunibyou accordingly: as explained by Yuuta, Rikka keeps something dear to her, and the chuunibyou behaviour is a shield to maintain that.
But if her problem is solved, likewise, her chuunibyou will not define her full personality as result. Instead, it could be potentially like Yuuta's: a simple means to mess around which wouldn't break the bound of social acceptance past a certain treshold. And eventually, if the necessity of acting chuuni disappear, that behaviour might naturally turn into her previous genki persona with some fantasies to brighten the mood, which wouldn't be really chuunibyou where it is a much stronger makebelieve concept (and in this case, it is her longing for her father that makes her believe he is still alive).

But really, just giving Rikka a sense of "acting normal, acting chuuni" at the same time won't fix the problem at all. It will just displace it.
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Well, if that "turn chuunibyou off forever" is the impression this anime wants to give us, then this is one bizarre way of trying to convey it. The way this episode portrays current Rikka certainly doesn't support that impression much.
The anime actually shows that "turning off chuunibyou" isn't enough at all. In fact, the very conflict Yuuta has is the prime example that a one sided solution won't fix the issue. Rikka's problem takes precedence to the gravity of her chuunibyou, to which will be changed accordingly should her own issue is settled. Otherwise, Rikka's depression wouldn't be so severe if it was just a simple lack of fun.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 22:05.
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Old 2012-12-14, 22:58   Link #119
ShiroiRyu
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Sorry, guys, i'm french so i will not wrote a lot after you.
But i read just one thing :

Quote:
After watching this episode, I would like to conclude that this series has been better than what KyoAni usually makes.
I hate Haruhi, i hate K-on!, i hate Clannad.
I hate a lot of things from KyoAni.
The only thing i liked from KyoAni was Nichijou!, mainly because i loved the OP from Hyadain.
When i began this anime, i was more "meh" ... another KyoAni thing with bad graphic style. <_<
Now when i see it, i can just only feel sad and i think KyoAni can do some good thing too ... sometimes....
Sorry. :/
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Old 2012-12-14, 23:05   Link #120
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Rikka hasn't moved on from it yet, at least in part, because of the unusual circumstances surrounding it (which her family frankly played a major role in creating). That, plus there's every indication that Rikka never had many friends before, which is not the case any more. A great personal lost is much harder to weather when you don't have many other close people in your life. But as you create more friendships and relationships in life, it becomes less difficult to move on from past lost.

Furthermore, I think that Rikki found her coping mechanism to be enjoyable in and of itself. She found a lot of it simply "cool". That's why she fell for "Dark Flame Master", remember?

This is something that I don't think you and Klash appreciate enough.
She also pushed those same friends away in the second half of this show when we were introduced to her family situation. Shinka didn't know, Kumin didn't know, and even Dekomori didn't know despite being friends with her longer than Yuuta has.

This isn't something light that naturally wears off with time. I don't think you understand how important it was that Yuuta was constantly there not just to support her, but to keep her in check as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, I'm not. I'm well aware of the dangers of the Unseen Horizon portion of Rikka's chuunibyou, and have made that clear before on this thread. Yes, she needs to put the Unseen Horizon behind her. Nonetheless, comparing Rikka's chuunibyou to something like alcoholism or heroine addiction is simply ridiculous. It's an over-the-top comparison.




And so does Rikka, to some extent, for the reasons I mentioned above.

We are now seeing what being denied chuunibyou has done to Rikka.

There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, in spite of what you and Klash (and possibly some others) are arguing.

When has Rikka been outright defiant of her elders, with the exception of her family which she obviously had just cause for feeling resentful towards? When have we seen her act out in-class?

I don't understand how I'm supposed to answer this question when you don't count her family, you don't count her teacher, and you don't even count her peers. What elders are left? Yuuta's mom who usually has to work anyway?

She clearly acted out during her first meeting with Yuuta in class, pretending that her eye and arm were hurting. Then, she acted out against every club she visited, towards peers that weren't part of her class that you could presume to be "used to her". If you're discounting every non-serious example as well as serious cases with her family, then there's not much left to the show. It's been shown that she hasn't been fine even before Yuuta forced her to take off her eyepatch.

I don't understand how her dissatisfaction with being "normal" suddenly translates to going back to the way things were, where she had to turn every social situation, from meeting other people in clubs to dealing with the survival of her club to her own academic career into a battle in search for the Unseen Horizon.

It's been obvious from the very beginning that Rikka needs Yuuta to keep her in check and grounded in reality, yet you're acting like encouraging her to follow not just any fantasy like Dekomori, but the fantasy of finding her father, thinking that she will outgrow it naturally when it's only thanks to Yuuta's help that she could even keep her academics and the club that's so very important to her afloat. She can have her chuunibiyou back when her outlook on her father's death is different.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2012-12-14 at 23:35.
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