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Old 2012-12-13, 17:19   Link #1041
xizro345
King's Justice
 
 
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post

And complaining over name changes? Come on guys. Seriously?
Yes, seriously. Localizing isn't changing things just to make things more unique.
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Old 2012-12-13, 17:46   Link #1042
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
Yes, seriously. Localizing isn't changing things just to make things more unique.
No it's not, it's making minor edits to a franchise to make it more appealing and easier to understand by a foreign audience.

Magiquone and Arfoire, both reference the same thing, but which one is an English speaking North American going to understand the reference/joke with much easier? The latter obviously. Heck look at Pokemon, I've never seen anyone who speaks English ever call them by their Japanese names.

I'm not Japanese, so a lot of Japanese pop culture references and language puns these games make will be lost on me and likely many others. It's always a lot easier to enjoy games with references and jokes you can understand as opposed to ones that'll just leave you confused.
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Old 2012-12-13, 23:59   Link #1043
shinku no kage
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Dammit...the NA version gets a special time capsule tin eh? Makes me ALMOST want to buy the game for it.

I'm not entirely surprised about this whole dub mismatch problem whatnot. At this point why do we put any expectation into things to begin with? How often do dubs turn out to be "good"? Atleast we're lucky enough that NISAmerica is "generous" enough to usually give players the option of using the JP voices in their games.

Besides, can't complain much with a game such as this one that is filled with numerous references and puns that are unique to Japan, which even only a small majority of the Japanese players get the references, so it's hard enough work to translate and/or add dialogue for a release overseas.

C'mon, how many of the casual gamers can even pronounce "moe" let alone understand what it means?LOL

...and moving onto talking about the JP version, STILL no date on the DLC characters. At this point I've basically thrown out any thoughts on getting them, I've already gotten the Platinum Trophy for the game, not much left that I "have" to do.
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Old 2012-12-14, 00:31   Link #1044
xizro345
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
No it's not, it's making minor edits to a franchise to make it more appealing and easier to understand by a foreign audience.
Except that they were names given by the creators. And should remain as is. Not to mention, NISA blatantly lied regarding Pishe's name (not linking her to the PC Engine) and Pururut's name (she references the Megadrive, not the non-exsistant Pluto). Why change Copyliace to Copypaste? It's not even related to the character at all, since the description given even in the official material is misleading. Even Anonedeath got changed to Anonydeath, I suppose to enhance his "odd" behavior, but there was no need to do so. I don't see legitimate reasons to change the names.

Quote:
I'm not Japanese, so a lot of Japanese pop culture references and language puns these games make will be lost on me and likely many others. It's always a lot easier to enjoy games with references and jokes you can understand as opposed to ones that'll just leave you confused.
That doesn't mean you can make arbitrarily jokes that even change the behavior of the characters (references to Neptune being chubby in the first game - non existant - or the whole enhancing the dialogue of Trick The Hard).

Last edited by xizro345; 2012-12-14 at 00:48.
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Old 2012-12-14, 01:00   Link #1045
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Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
Except that they were names given by the creators. And should remain as is.
Again, I point out Pokemon as an example. You're going to be very hard-pressed to find people who give a fuck about this kind of thing.

Quote:
Not to mention, NISA blatantly lied regarding Pishe's name (not linking her to the PC Engine) and Pururut's name (she references the Megadrive, not the non-exsistant Pluto). Why change Copyliace to Copypaste? It's not even related to the character at all, since the description given even in the official material is misleading. Even Anonedeath got changed to Anonydeath, I suppose to enhance his "odd" behavior, but there was no need to do so. I don't see legitimate reasons to change the names.
I admit I haven't been following this game nearly as closely as you apparently are. Only Pururut's name is familiar to me and I didn't even think it was a reference to anything, and I imagine most don't really care about the name change regardless cause it's not a big deal.

Quote:
That doesn't mean you can make arbitrarily jokes that even change the behavior of the characters (references to Neptune being chubby in the first game - non existant - or the whole enhancing the dialogue of Trick The Hard).
Changing the character's behavior huh? I think it's pretty safe to say the characters act pretty damn close to how they were intended to behave so I'll have to disagree. Neptune's still a genki girl and CFU Trick is still a lolicon even with the localization, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 2012-12-14, 07:06   Link #1046
xizro345
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Again, I point out Pokemon as an example. You're going to be very hard-pressed to find people who give a fuck about this kind of thing.
Then let me introduce a reductio ad absurdum: If names aren't a big deal, what about changing music, removing part of the game, changing systems "to localize it better"? Would that be still "not a big deal"?

Quote:
I admit I haven't been following this game nearly as closely as you apparently are. Only Pururut's name is familiar to me and I didn't even think it was a reference to anything, and I imagine most don't really care about the name change regardless cause it's not a big deal.
I am still playing the Japanese version (almost finished now). And it's pretty clear she's a reference by just looking at her goddess form. And I repeat: we're not talking about references here but names that NISA, insulting the player intelligence, believes are not sufficiently direct.

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Changing the character's behavior huh? I think it's pretty safe to say the characters act pretty damn close to how they were intended to behave so I'll have to disagree.
Sorry but that's not true. It made seemed that Neptune was kind of obssessed with food, while it's not the case, there was no mention of it in the original dialogue. And Trick got much, much worse. In the original he says about himself that he's a maniac and rarely rambles despite his obsession. NISA's dialogue, instead, turned him in a semi-pedo guy.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:08   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
Then let me introduce a reductio ad absurdum: If names aren't a big deal, what about changing music, removing part of the game, changing systems "to localize it better"? Would that be still "not a big deal"?
We're just talking about the names of the characters here. Everything else is irrelevant. But if you want an an answer, localization needs to have it's limits and if changing a character's name warrants a foreigner being able to find the character endearing, then it's a acceptable change because it's not severe enough to affect the other things you mention.

Quote:
I am still playing the Japanese version (almost finished now). And it's pretty clear she's a reference by just looking at her goddess form. And I repeat: we're not talking about references here but names that NISA, insulting the player intelligence, believes are not sufficiently direct.
So you think they're insulting your intelligence huh? Maybe it's not you they're putting into consideration when changing the names but those who don't have any knowledge of the game and it's origins prior to purchasing it. There's always a possibility, even if it's very small, that someone outside the niche target audience will give the game a try.

Quote:
Sorry but that's not true. It made seemed that Neptune was kind of obssessed with food, while it's not the case, there was no mention of it in the original dialogue. And Trick got much, much worse. In the original he says about himself that he's a maniac and rarely rambles despite his obsession. NISA's dialogue, instead, turned him in a semi-pedo guy.
Aaaaaaand? The gluttonous aspect of Neptune's character is not what makes up her core personality. That belongs to her air-headedness and genki-ness which is sufficiently expressed in the localization already. CFW Trick's pedophilic tendencies get across to the audience that he's a lolicon too, so I still don't see the problem.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:18   Link #1048
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
So you think they're insulting your intelligence huh? Maybe it's not you they're putting into consideration when changing the names but those who don't have any knowledge of the game and it's origins prior to purchasing it. There's always a possibility, even if it's very small, that someone outside the niche target audience will give the game a try.
There is a drastic difference in changing the name for the hell of it and changing the names in order to get the point across.
That being said, Arfoire is no better than Maqiquone, because even saying out of loud doesn't always make sense either (be it english native or not). In fact, only those who know what's a flashcard/R4 would catch the reference, so I don't particularly think it is worse or better albeit a tad unecessary.

Some other changes are however a tad more questionable than that, and it is actually not better than change characters names like Kasumi and Shin into Ashley and Casey (gross exaggeration notwithstanding).
Quote:
Aaaaaaand? The gluttonous aspect of Neptune's character is not what makes up her core personality. That belongs to her air-headedness and genki-ness which is sufficiently expressed in the localization already. CFW Trick's pedophilic tendencies get across to the audience that he's a lolicon too, so I still don't see the problem.
I disagree: when you actually translate/localize a fiction, you have to bring the points that should be understood by the audience, without putting your own perspective in it.
Neptune's gluttony actually came out of thin air and makes some actions a bit more "inconsiderate" when the english text indicate more often than necessary that she is hungry. It becomes a little crass when you have mentions like "whoa, I almost crapped my pants!" instead of a plain "whoa, you surprised me!".

Such kind of altered lines change how the character is perceived on the long run, leading to very different result at some point.
For instance, "US" Neptune sounds actually more flanderized and unable to read the mood than the original game.

Also, no Trick is quite different: in the US, he is basically a huge molester who would love to "eat" little girls.
The jp version actually makes him -worship- little girls and go to extreme measures to protect them (licking parts are gross, but actually "heal" Rom and Ram for instance).

A lot of instances actually make Trick actions nearly the complete opposite to what it was supposed to do. So the "message" of him being a lolicon is "sort" of the same, but the nature and magnitude of it are severely different.
And this is already emerging from what I can see (changing IH's "they are all mine!" into "they are my pets").
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Old 2012-12-14, 15:22   Link #1049
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While I don't like the dub, but I do think NISA had done a good job translating the game in mk.II with their liberal style. A lot of the jokes won't come across as easily if they translate them literally, and I give credits for managing to find the English-speaking equivalent(sort of) of them (a skill I've yet to have as a translator myself). As far as I've played it(I haven't finished it yet, will get around that later), I think they have conveyed the 'spirit' of the jokes quite decently(even with that, some jokes still don't come across, like Nisa's "Mou kowakunai!" ).
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:02   Link #1050
SilverSyko
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There is a drastic difference in changing the name for the hell of it and changing the names in order to get the point across.
That being said, Arfoire is no better than Maqiquone, because even saying out of loud doesn't always make sense either (be it english native or not). In fact, only those who know what's a flashcard/R4 would catch the reference, so I don't particularly think it is worse or better albeit a tad unecessary.
Not really. If someone knew what the R4 was but didn't have any knowledge of Japanese language, Arfoire would be he better choice of name to have. But yes, it's true that the majority probably won't even know what the R4 is in the first place so I'll meet you half-way.

Quote:
Some other changes are however a tad more questionable than that, and it is actually not better than change characters names like Kasumi and Shin into Ashley and Casey (gross exaggeration notwithstanding).
I only agree with this if the setting of the game/anime/whatever is set in real-world Japan. If it's a completely fictional world there's a lot more leeway to change the characters names.

Quote:
I disagree: when you actually translate/localize a fiction, you have to bring the points that should be understood by the audience, without putting your own perspective in it.

*SNIP*
Okay, but who's to say these "inconsiderate" and "crass" changes to dialogue don't make it more endearing for a North American audience? That's who they're marketing to and therefore need to appeal to.

I have never played the Japanese version of these games and I don't intend to, so I was completely unaware of these behavioral differences. All I was told was that Neptune was an airhead, and that's what I got in the NA version. I was told Trick was a lolicon, what's what I got in the NA version. To me, that isn't any different from my expectations and I have no complaints.

I can name several characters I find way more endearing in their localized states than their original selves. I find Japanese voices annoying sometimes, Japanese comedic dialogue is often very tame and confusing rather than funny so I'd rather hear jokes and references I can understand and laugh at, and characters frequently cussing and saying crude things is something a lot of North Americans can relate to.

Ultimately, the goal of localization is to adapt a foreign franchise into something that another country can find more endearing and understandable without changing as little of the core aspects as possible, and I feel this series accomplishes that well enough.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:04   Link #1051
xizro345
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
We're just talking about the names of the characters here. Everything else is irrelevant. But if you want an an answer, localization needs to have it's limits and if changing a character's name warrants a foreigner being able to find the character endearing, then it's a acceptable change because it's not severe enough to affect the other things you mention.
I disagree. While there's no way to get all the jokes and to assume the dialogue would look exactly like the Japanese version, expecting the character to behave like NA people is equally absurd. It's a Japanese game nevertheless. Characters are named in certain ways for a reason. I don't see the reason to change them.


Quote:
So you think they're insulting your intelligence huh? Maybe it's not you they're putting into consideration when changing the names but those who don't have any knowledge of the game and it's origins prior to purchasing it. There's always a possibility, even if it's very small, that someone outside the niche target audience will give the game a try.
They wouldn't get the reference either way if they're outside the niche - hence no reason to change it. And it's insulting because NISA thinks people are not enough "accustomed" to get it. Why change Warechuu in Pirachu? The Pokemon reference was obvious from the beginning, but for some reason NISA thought people wouldn't get it.


Quote:
Also, no Trick is quite different: in the US, he is basically a huge molester who would love to "eat" little girls.
The jp version actually makes him -worship- little girls and go to extreme measures to protect them (licking parts are gross, but actually "heal" Rom and Ram for instance).
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Trick really behaves differently.

Quote:
And this is already emerging from what I can see (changing IH's "they are all mine!" into "they are my pets").
Yeah, I noticed that too. Seems they changed a bit Anonedeath too from what I see, but it's too early to tell.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:22   Link #1052
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Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
I disagree. While there's no way to get all the jokes and to assume the dialogue would look exactly like the Japanese version, expecting the character to behave like NA people is equally absurd. It's a Japanese game nevertheless. Characters are named in certain ways for a reason. I don't see the reason to change them.
Why? Its not like the game is set in any real-world location so why are the characters obliged to act like they were intended to as long as the general personality of their character remains the same? If you ask me, expecting them to not be slightly changed is even more absurd when they're trying to appeal to North Americans. Not Japanese.

Quote:
They wouldn't get the reference either way if they're outside the niche - hence no reason to change it. And it's insulting because NISA thinks people are not enough "accustomed" to get it. Why change Warechuu in Pirachu? The Pokemon reference was obvious from the beginning, but for some reason NISA thought people wouldn't get it.
Even I don't know what the hell 'Warechuu" is a reference to unless it's a reference to hardware and software in general. Honestly I like Pirachu more because it's a reference to a franchise me and most North Americans are very familiar with, making it more endearing. If you find it insulting then you're in an incredibly small minority.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:38   Link #1053
xizro345
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Why? Its not like the game is set in any real-world location so why are the characters obliged to act like they were intended to as long as the general personality of their character remains the same? If you ask me, expecting them to not be slightly changed is even more absurd when they're trying to appeal to North Americans. Not Japanese.
But, as Klashikari showed, they do not retain their features. And the game has not been made to appeal to NA people, despite Idea Factory's intention to sell it overseas (as per financial results). Hence something will be lost no matter how one tries.
In fact, I think NISA dug its own hole with the treatment of Neptune, in light of certain events that happen in V. It would be very difficult to keep the image they created.

Quote:
Even I don't know what the hell 'Warechuu" is a reference to unless it's a reference to hardware and software in general. Honestly I like Pirachu more because it's a reference to a franchise me and most North Americans are very familiar with, making it more endearing. If you find it insulting then you're in an incredibly small minority.
Is that difficult to let the players decide themselves? I think not. NISA also instead of trying to stick with its decision makes up extremely odd excuses, and has been doing this more than once. As I mentioned, they changed Pururut to Plutia, but instead of saying the localizing reasons, they fabricated a lie in which Pururut represents a project SEGA never had and that was never mentioned, Pluto.
On top of that, they also kick the people that want a dub in the nuts, promising a dub that covers the same amount of mk2 lines, but V's script is double in size...
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:59   Link #1054
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Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
But, as Klashikari showed, they do not retain their features. And the game has not been made to appeal to NA people, despite Idea Factory's intention to sell it overseas (as per financial results). Hence something will be lost no matter how one tries.
Neptune's still an air-headed genki girl and Trick's still a lolicon like they were intended to be. I don't know how many times I have to say that. Even if they show it differently from the Japanese version they still have the same general personality. That's perfectly okay as they're not completely different characters anymore.

And the game was made for a Japanese audience sure, but it's being localized to a North American audience, so it's the localizers' job to make sure it can appeal to North Americans with as subtle edits as possible.

Quote:
Is that difficult to let the players decide themselves? I think not. NISA also instead of trying to stick with its decision makes up extremely odd excuses, and has been doing this more than once.
For the record I'm not trying to defend Nippon Ichi America. I haven't really played any games they've localized except for Neptunia so I don't really care about them. I'm mostly trying to say that changing a character's name during localization is okay in Neptunia's case and not that big of a deal.
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Old 2012-12-14, 17:03   Link #1055
xizro345
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I'm way more wary of them, since I happened to witness the mess that was Ar Tonelico 2. And their stance reminds me too much of the way Working Designs used to work, something I do not like.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:22   Link #1056
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and characters frequently cussing and saying crude things is something a lot of North Americans can relate to.
I find this unfortunate.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:38   Link #1057
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Neptune's still an air-headed genki girl and Trick's still a lolicon like they were intended to be. I don't know how many times I have to say that. Even if they show it differently from the Japanese version they still have the same general personality. That's perfectly okay as they're not completely different characters anymore.

And the game was made for a Japanese audience sure, but it's being localized to a North American audience, so it's the localizers' job to make sure it can appeal to North Americans with as subtle edits as possible.
The problem is that the "subtle" localization is as smooth as a sledgehammer. Really, the changes in term of speeches and terms used is quite numerous and often nonsensical.

Do you actually see non US english native stories/movies with their characters changed to match your usual joe who needs a beer, BBQ and the F word every 5 seconds?
I find extremely odd and exaggerated to think that cussing is actually "appealing" the NA audience: it surely put the audience in a cliche that many would definitely not enjoy, moreso those who are versed in anime stuff.

And for some reason, other localization of very "japanese" game do not have such treatment even for US releases: you don't see FF games with that kind of stuff, right?

Really, while the "flavor" change might please "some people" in getting characters in a very non subtle way, I sincerely have hard time to believe that such treatment would make the game more suitable for NA public.


Also, no, some speech pattern obviously lead to differences and perceptions of a given character to a certain degree. Really, having a character talking all the time about food and using 5 years old joke give a -much more- juvenile and dumb image than if the speech was moderately normal, but in a hyper way.
Overal personality cannot be exactly considered the same when interests and actions are shown in a very different light. That's like having K-on heroines talking about boys instead of cakes.
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:37   Link #1058
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I find extremely odd and exaggerated to think that cussing is actually "appealing" the NA audience: it surely put the audience in a cliche that many would definitely not enjoy, moreso those who are versed in anime stuff.
Look at American media. What's the most successful animated show there? South Park. Look at the kinds of games Americans play. What are the most successful titles? The Call of Duty series.The most successful animated film? Shrek 2.

Tastes of the North American general public are vastly different from the Japanese. Based on the facts I don't think it's exaggerated to say North Americans find crudeness and violence very entertaining. Editing a game like Neptunia to include some of that to a reasonable degree makes tons of sense to me.

Quote:
And for some reason, other localization of very "japanese" game do not have such treatment even for US releases: you don't see FF games with that kind of stuff, right?
Well for one thing think about what kind of goals and tone Final Fantasy has compared to Neptunia. While I have never played a main FF game for longer than an hour or two, I know they're much more serious in tone and try to tell an engaging story. Neptunia on the other hand does not. It relies mostly on it's comedy, references and cuteness to get by. I think in Neptunia's case it's allowed to get away with larger amount of "Americanization" since it needs a lot more of it to have appeal to Americans, but not too much that it loses it's Japanese flair. That's why it's the dialogue and behaviors of the characters that have changed the most out of everything.

Quote:
Really, while the "flavor" change might please "some people" in getting characters in a very non subtle way, I sincerely have hard time to believe that such treatment would make the game more suitable for NA public.
Well unfortunately based on what's incredibly popular in North America I can't really agree with this. It's a shame but....yeah.

Quote:
Also, no, some speech pattern obviously lead to differences and perceptions of a given character to a certain degree. Really, having a character talking all the time about food and using 5 years old joke give a -much more- juvenile and dumb image than if the speech was moderately normal, but in a hyper way.
Overal personality cannot be exactly considered the same when interests and actions are shown in a very different light. That's like having K-on heroines talking about boys instead of cakes.
Well I'm just going to leave it at this then since I don't think there's much more I can say on the subject. I never played the Japanese version, I don't intend to, and I'm completely fine with how the characters are portrayed as they currently are in the NA version. I was given expectations on how they would behave and I got it. Simple as that.
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Last edited by SilverSyko; 2012-12-14 at 22:49.
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Old 2012-12-14, 22:21   Link #1059
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Chapter 25 is out

Spoiler for 25:
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Old 2012-12-15, 01:39   Link #1060
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Chapter 25 is out

Spoiler for 25:
Spoiler for Meanwhile...:
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