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Old 2012-12-14, 21:13   Link #11481
ziggi92
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A could Medaka box in real be without "boring & useless Zenkichi" at begin of Manga we saw it through the point of view from Zenkichi maybe it is kind ironic that if Wolfenstein is right about Devil Style it it all about faith in himself that I think is one reason why Zenkichi is boring is because we have so many hopes or faith in him that could become better that nearly does not happens so instead we see Zenkichi the normal like some at big hopes like me of him getting big before the black wedding and right after becoming president but no he is still same Zenkichi that we know of has not changed.


There is another reason why I think many people considered him boring is because of him nearly always becomes victim of something like for example what happened at Jet black wedding where he became of the people of got trap and was the last one to be released from the trap plus he could have dead from the wound he got but that is another story.

Instead of saving himself like what Kumagawa did and Ajimu with their trap instead he saved by the one he was suppose to save.

And now he is again trapped now by he "suppose" friend Kumagawa who doubtful told Zenkichi that he would make him disappear from forsake of Shiranui coming back to the academy.

And Again is going to be saved by someone this is not sign of powerful character but instead weak character who is being used by powerful people by all means like being part of plan of making someone lose (ajimu) but now his is still being control by powerful ones who he is not equal with like Kumagawa who made him disappear like he was nothing.

That is why it will be interesting if Zenkichi will be back will he change and become someone who is not controlled by powerful people or will he still be the same "boring" Zenkichi.


But another thing why is Shiranui willing to save "boring Zenkichi" what makes him not "boring" in her eyes which nobody can see expect Ajimu and some near Zenkichi expect for Medaka.

What makes Zenkichi special that it is not possible to see the manga without Zenkichi would be like Batman without robin why is that he is so important to the manga is because of Zen X Medaka relationship which many people don't like to see happened instead they like to see him with another character.
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Old 2012-12-14, 21:29   Link #11482
[HearT]
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Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
well, here's to hope that kumagawa doesnt pull up a trick and shiranui actually won this match.

and its nice to see medaka stunned for once.
Well there has to be some sort of trick, it would just be too random to have Zenkichi disappear for a chapter to piss off Shiranui then have Kumagawa and Shiranui fight for a couple of pages and then bring Zen back 2 chapters later, that'd just be too lame~
especially with the buildup from the beginning of the chapter saying Kumagawa probably has something planned,

And it's Kumagawa, he doesn't go down without screwing you over a bit first~
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Old 2012-12-14, 22:08   Link #11483
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by ziggi92 View Post
A could Medaka box in real be without "boring & useless Zenkichi" at begin of Manga we saw it through the point of view from Zenkichi maybe it is kind ironic that if Wolfenstein is right about Devil Style it it all about faith in himself that I think is one reason why Zenkichi is boring is because we have so many hopes or faith in him that could become better that nearly does not happens so instead we see Zenkichi the normal like some at big hopes like me of him getting big before the black wedding and right after becoming president but no he is still same Zenkichi that we know of has not changed.

Haha. It is kind of interesting to see Zenkichi fans try to rationalize the perspective of why some people consider him "boring". But if I had to say the one thing which makes Zenkichi "uninteresting", it actually has nothing to do with his lack of power or needing to be saved. Rather, it is instead Zenkichi's personality/point of view/understanding of the world, this is the fundamental "boring" part of his character.

There are basically two major components of Zenkichi's personality. The first, Zenkichi's 'love'/obsession with Medaka, is the primary contributor to the weakness of Medaka Box's beginning chapters. At the start of the series, Zenkichi's entire personality is basically about the belief that "Medaka is always right". Zenkichi raises Medaka up like some kind of paragon to be loved and protected, forcing readers to just think of the series as some piece of crap where the main character is perfect, invincible, and always right. In large part, it is Zenkichi's fault that at the beginning of the series it is impossible to see or think of Medaka as human.

The second major aspect of Zenkichi's character is his idealism/positive outlook on life. This is the principle source of where his thematic/narrative value can come from. Even though everybody knows that life/the world is meaningless, in the end it's still important to look forward, believe in things, and keep trying. In order to have any sort of proper life, a human being must accept that. Out of all the characters in Medaka Box, Zenkichi is more or less the best/only one who can pass on this message.

However, despite the necessity of Zenkichi's idealism/optimism at the fundamental level, there are a lot of times when Zenkichi's natural idealism is just bullshit or goes too far. Zenkichi is not really someone who understands all of the meaninglessness or emptiness Medaka/Kumagawa (or other characters; Emukae, etc.) has seen. Again, especially in the early parts of the series: for example, the time when Zenkichi refused to accept Unzen + Team Loser's help during the Flask Plan because "Medaka would cry if she found out you got hurt for her". But also sparking off the Not Equals/True Flask Plan arc when Zenkichi refused to cooperate with others for the Treasure Hunt (and complained about the results). And still recently when Zenkichi thought it was honestly viable to charge straight in and fight Iihiko again, without any plan or training.

All in all, both "boring" aspects of Zenkichi (irrationally being in love with Medaka, and empty optimism) still exist in his character, so you can't really expect things to get better. More accurately, they are pretty significant and defined aspects of his character, so you should only expect them to change after major character development.
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Old 2012-12-14, 23:35   Link #11484
summers
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...What if Kumagawa's plan is to turn himself into a Plus?
It would be an abomination. Chapter also highlighted that Kumagawa is random so he may just be experimenting and seeing how things will end up.
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Old 2012-12-15, 00:23   Link #11485
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Okay, why is it a given that he can't understand what they go through? There's a difference between not liking something, and not understanding what others go through. Not saying he's right in his methods, but I just wanted to clarify this semantic point.

While I agree that he can be overly stubborn, I don't think his methods are inherently "wrong" per se.
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Old 2012-12-15, 02:42   Link #11486
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Okay, why is it a given that he can't understand what they go through? There's a difference between not liking something, and not understanding what others go through. Not saying he's right in his methods, but I just wanted to clarify this semantic point.

While I agree that he can be overly stubborn, I don't think his methods are inherently "wrong" per se.
Haha. Well, to clarify I was not really talking about Zenkichi's "methods", but moreso his beliefs or attitude. Alternatively his perspective.

I mean, for the first example, do you think it was realistic for Zenkichi to believe that the Student Council could reach/save Medaka without Team Loser? Reasonable that he should refuse their help because it might hurt Medaka's emotions? Zenkichi did, and it was this attitude of aiming too high while at the same time not looking at realistic consequences of failure which describes Zenkichi's attitude as false/empty optimism. Zenkichi believed/hoped he could do something, which was not only impossible but pointless to do.

Actually, to be more accurate, I guess you could call this "false" Plus, or "trying too hard" Plus.

So with regards to what I said about "understanding" what Medaka, or other Abnormals/Minuses had seen, I wasn't really talking about hardship or experiences. "Gone through" wouldn't quite be the right words. It was just more like, a realistic/accurate understanding of reality. Of what's actually possible, what their limits are, stuff like that. Also, what's worth doing in the first place. In general, the reason why other types of characters would be more likely to understand this kind of stuff (realistically achievable things) would either because they have a higher capacity to understand things quicker (i.e. Abnormals) or have more experience fighting against not being able to achieve them (Minuses).
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
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Old 2012-12-15, 05:20   Link #11487
Clarste
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On that note, I find it interesting that apparently Zen now has the skill to see his own limitations. Which actually explains something I had been wondering about.
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Old 2012-12-15, 07:08   Link #11488
kenjtr
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
On that note, I find it interesting that apparently Zen now has the skill to see his own limitations. Which actually explains something I had been wondering about.
What does it explain ?

I also thought zens new skill is intresting since when people know their limits they can grow up . I think zenkichi is pathetic since he is the normal human who went to a magical world because he fell in love with future owerlord of that world . Zenkichi has potencial to become president if he doesnt blindly follow medaka but in the end nothing changes even after election .

Sad thing is no matter how much zenkichi tries medaka can overcome that in instant with no effort so i really wonder whats the point of trying , as long as zenkichi dont accepts he will never be with medaka like professor fukurou he will never be happy and i hope this arc will serve that purpose .
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Old 2012-12-15, 14:28   Link #11489
kagato3
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Originally Posted by [HearT] View Post
Well there has to be some sort of trick, it would just be too random to have Zenkichi disappear for a chapter to piss off Shiranui then have Kumagawa and Shiranui fight for a couple of pages and then bring Zen back 2 chapters later, that'd just be too lame~
especially with the buildup from the beginning of the chapter saying Kumagawa probably has something planned,

And it's Kumagawa, he doesn't go down without screwing you over a bit first~
I think the trick is by loseing Kumagawa wins
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:08   Link #11490
ccie20012
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I am very surprised to read this.
Why are all (or some sort of an active part of the forum) are convinced that Zen must be change.
He subjectively (for himself) looks as fine.
He is satisfied with his life.
He loves the most important character of this manga (Medaka). I have the proof.
She loves him. I have the proof.

It reminds me time when any assured me that the Medaka never admits his love for Zen.
"Medaka not likes Zen". (c) I remember this moment in the forum.
The impression is that people follow the rule:
"If the facts are contrary to my opinion, so much the worse for the facts."

Quote:
he will never be with medaka
Proof please. At the moment Medaka plans to marry him (in due time). Zen no doubt in this. Other manga characters to doubt? No one.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-12-15 at 15:21.
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:12   Link #11491
Dr. Casey
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This series has a pretty awesome fanbase right here. ~11,500 posts of enthused, in-depth analysis and discussion, and a minimum of "omg this series sucks sooooo much it's totally jumped the shark"-style rage that infests so many other AnimeSuki discussions. Kinda makes me want to read the manga just so I can join in.
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:14   Link #11492
Kaisos Erranon
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On that note, I find it interesting that apparently Zen now has the skill to see his own limitations. Which actually explains something I had been wondering about.
Wait, what exactly?
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:06   Link #11493
kagato3
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Originally Posted by kenjtr View Post
What does it explain ?

I also thought zens new skill is intresting since when people know their limits they can grow up . I think zenkichi is pathetic since he is the normal human who went to a magical world because he fell in love with future owerlord of that world . Zenkichi has potencial to become president if he doesnt blindly follow medaka but in the end nothing changes even after election .

Sad thing is no matter how much zenkichi tries medaka can overcome that in instant with no effort so i really wonder whats the point of trying , as long as zenkichi dont accepts he will never be with medaka like professor fukurou he will never be happy and i hope this arc will serve that purpose .
I wouldn't say Zen follows Medaka blindly He follows her for what I think is 3 reasons.
1) she will drag him along whether he wants to go or not and it's too much of a pain to fight with her about most things that as long as it doesn't conflict with his belifes he will grugeingly go along with it snarking all the way (basicly the whole reason he ended up in the student council to start with is because she would not take no for an answear)

2) He understands just how much the normal world and Medaka don't mix well so he has made him self into a buffer zone to protect the 2 from each other. He's made it his goal to keep her human while at the same time keep her existance from crushing those around her. I think he's always had a good understanding of his and others limits and that is why he has been able to be around Medaka for so long and still be saneish.

3) He realy likes her. He may have just figured out he loves her but he has always known that being with her is intersting if not enjoyable on some level to him.
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:25   Link #11494
kenjtr
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Sad thing is all that caused by zenkichis pity for medaka , he couldnt stand medaka being all alone when she was a child and decided to help her but in the end he ended up the one who is suffering the most in medakas wacky verse .
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:29   Link #11495
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Sad thing is all that caused by zenkichis pity for medaka , he couldnt stand medaka being all alone when she was a child and decided to help her but in the end he ended up the one who is suffering the most in medakas wacky verse .
I think it was more admiration than pity that kept him around her when they were kids. To him she was super smart and cool and being around her was fun. The admiration kinda died down when he started to realize she was godlike 24/7 but by then he already had a strong relationship with her, she refused to let him get some distance and he had lingering feelings for her so just kept quiet and followed her lead.
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Old 2012-12-15, 18:52   Link #11496
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I think it was more admiration than pity that kept him around her when they were kids. To him she was super smart and cool and being around her was fun. The admiration kinda died down when he started to realize she was godlike 24/7 but by then he already had a strong relationship with her, she refused to let him get some distance and he had lingering feelings for her so just kept quiet and followed her lead.
Its sad that zenkichi has feelings for medaka and that shows us how love destroys a shounen character , luffy is very clever in that department .
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Old 2012-12-15, 19:01   Link #11497
Randrak42
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Its sad that zenkichi has feelings for medaka and that shows us how love destroys a shounen character , luffy is very clever in that department .
Not really, love can be an extremely powerful tool for character development if done right.

Personally, I don't believe Zenkichi's love for Medaka harms the character in this case, he knows who he loves and isn't afraid of saying it out-loud...which is something many shounen heroes don't do at all. Then again I'm not part of the "Zenkichi is boring and useless" group and like him quite a lot as he is.
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Old 2012-12-15, 19:26   Link #11498
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Regarding Clarste's point, it seems like it would be a natural extension of Devil Style(though it really hasn't been mentioned much since the election). Because fate has no whims in his favor or against him, he has to rely on his own abilities. It's notable that even with Altered God mode Model Zenkichi, he gets cut up pretty badly but barely gets the win.

@Randrak Hmm, I'm left thinking back to Sol's point about "If Zenkichi stays with Medaka", then neither of them have really learned anything or progressed. What's your thought on that?
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Old 2012-12-15, 20:14   Link #11499
Randrak42
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@Randrak Hmm, I'm left thinking back to Sol's point about "If Zenkichi stays with Medaka", then neither of them have really learned anything or progressed. What's your thought on that?
Hmmm...well, I do agree that Zenkichi's view of Medaka being a perfect being that is always right is quite the negative trait to his character, while I agree that his thoughts on this aided in making people perceive Medaka as a boring godlike MC, he only played a small part in it as Medaka's own actions took the front seat in telling people just how superior she is to everything (that...and he wasn't the only one that viewed her as such).

But he has since changed and developed, he hasn't been shown to agree with her in everything or just blindly following her reasoning. He doesn't seem to me as the old Zenkichi that believes Medaka is always right and always above everyone. This was a changed aided by two things, the realization of his love for her and the guidance from friends.

I believe that without Ajimu and other's Zenkichi would probably still be the same as before, after being told off by Medaka when he failed to solve the riddle and complained he would just revert back to the blind follower of the Medaka cult.
The OLD Medaka x Zen relationship was actually pretty poisonous to both characters since they fed off eachother in the worst ways, Zenkichi followed the one that was always right and Medaka never saw wrong in her actions either. But with the help from others this relationship changed, I don't see it as poisonous at all now they now feed off eachother but there's actual nutritious value in those meals.

So...no, I don't really agree that if Zenkichi stays with Medaka then neither of them have really learned anything or progress because they HAVE changed already, admittedly it was thanks for their friends and companions a lot of the time but that's something that happens a lot in real life as well.

This is a complicated issue to discuss, everyone has certain feelings about characters and everyone has certain feelings about those character's involvements in the story. Some people perceive some changes in characters as good while others perceive it as bad. It's not that it is impossible for people to understand eachother's view points, but this never happens completely and a full agreement is rarely seen.
I'm a simple man...I don't like to think too much about things when I'm reading manga or watching anime.
I tend to stay away from posts like Sol's who tends to dig too deep for my liking at times. I stay away from certain discussions because I see people often over-thinking things, over-complicating things but get angry at me for simply suggesting a simpler view on things. This is something I only see in a very few number of threads I frequent, it's good that people get in-depth discussions out of a shounen manga...but I like to stay simple, state a short opinion on the chapter when it comes out and then let the others think about the psychology of it all.
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Old 2012-12-15, 21:46   Link #11500
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I don't think Zen ever thought of Medaka as someone that was always right. He rearly agrees with her methods other then they some how seem to work out. I think the reason people see it that way is because if you boil it down Medaka's belife system is based off of Zen's all-be-it in a more childlike way, so of course he is going to think what she is doing is right most of the time it's what he would do.
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