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Old 2012-12-16, 14:18   Link #3521
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
Sometimes I wonder if that's all you got to hope for; do you have any idea how asinine it is to the rest of the planet that owning assault weapons is a reason to vote one party or another?

But of course, that's the reality. I am well aware that because most Americans don't vote, that the weapon fanatics can decide an election just by bothering to show up to the booth. The ban won't pass of course; it's just the usual that goes through every time a bunch of American children dies. No one actually believes America would change in any way. As we said recently, there is no Progressives in American politics anymore.
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Old 2012-12-16, 14:28   Link #3522
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
do you have any idea how asinine it is to me that owning assault weapons is a reason to vote one party or another?
fixed it for ya, at least I'm assuming that you're not actually trying to proclaim yourself Speaker of the World here.

There are a lot of reasons for every individual in every country to vote the way they do, ranging from everything including social issues, religious issues, to who they think looks cuter, it's their right, and it's certainly not up to you to dictate what should or should not be used as a criteria in their decision making process.

Quote:
But of course, that's the reality. I am well aware that because most Americans don't vote
Most? I seem to recall the last couple elections had voter turnouts of around 57% or so, how does that equate to "most Americans don't vote"?

Quote:
that the weapon fanatics can decide an election just by bothering to show up to the booth.
Nothing dresses up an incorrect statement like petty insults.

Quote:
The ban won't pass of course
Most likely not, but that's because it's an issue that's still pretty divided in the general public.
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Old 2012-12-16, 14:29   Link #3523
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It was in the news, so it wasn't swept under the rug. It's not sticking around the news because compared with the shooting that happened two days ago because nobody died, and the person who was injured was not injured as a result of bullets.
You missed the point.

Finally, a state that understands the situation and how to stop it or at least lessen it considerably.

State House passes bill allowing concealed weapons in schools, day care centers, stadiums, churches
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/2...ons-in-schools

And to further back up my point.
Here was yet another shooting yesterday.
This time a hospital in Georgia.
The shooter was prompted "neutralized" by an armed police officer.

Gunman dead after Alabama shooting
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/2...abama-shooting

Politically, I am of the opinion that any politician who backs new gun control will lose in 2014 if they're up for re-election.
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Old 2012-12-16, 14:40   Link #3524
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Finally, a state that understands the situation and how to stop it or at least lessen it considerably.

State House passes bill allowing concealed weapons in schools, day care centers, stadiums, churches
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/2...ons-in-schools
To me, it look like a very bad idea, but at least they say to limit this to highly trained gun owners only. Of course it don't specific who qualifie to be thoses ''highly trained gun owners''.

It simply a way to give a false sence of security to some, increase the over-presence of gun in the US and let's not forget about the gun culture ever so presente.
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Old 2012-12-16, 14:43   Link #3525
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
fixed it for ya, at least I'm assuming that you're not actually trying to proclaim yourself Speaker of the World here.
Ask to non USA citizens, for the rest of the world it is asinine, you will not find one country where this is even an issue in an election, let alone a decisive issue.
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Old 2012-12-16, 14:53   Link #3526
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
To me, it look like a very bad idea, but at least they say to limit this to highly trained gun owners only. Of course it don't specific who qualifie to be thoses ''highly trained gun owners''.
This bill has been in consideration for years here (I'm from Michigan), to answer your question, this applies only to people who already have their CCW, and would require additional mandatory training course before they can apply for this.

Quote:
It simply a way to give a false sence of security to some, increase the over-presence of gun in the US and let's not forget about the gun culture ever so presente
I'm just not gonna go there in this thread, and neither should anyone tbh, the gun control thread is locked for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Ask to non USA citizens, for the rest of the world it is asinine, you will not find one country where this is even an issue in an election, let alone a decisive issue.
I'm glad now that there's TWO of you, you guys can now totally speak for the other 6.7 billion that doesn't live in the US

And yes, I do know many non-US citizens who holds views on both sides(considering that a good deal of my family doesn't live in the US). And no, they don't just think it's "asinine", as they can actually manage to talk and debate the issue without resorting to rancor and petty insults.

Every country have unique and serious issues to deal with in their politics, how you can remotely begin to use that as some sort of negative mark is beyond me. For example, what other country besides Taiwan has to deal with the ever-present threat of a Chinese invasion? even Mexico has its own unique set of problems to deal with.
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:03   Link #3527
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Every country have unique and serious issues to deal with in their politics, how you can remotely begin to use that as some sort of negative mark is beyond me. For example, what other country besides Taiwan has to deal with the ever-present threat of a Chinese invasion? even Mexico has its own unique set of problems to deal with.
I find it even more worrying that you are equivalencing the fear of a military invasion to the desire to keep assault weapons.

If Taiwan gets invaded, it ceases to exist. You are saying to lose your precious guns means America would die... Which I guess, I HAVE heard online very frequently. In the same breath as claiming Obama is a communist dictator.

And that's why I say it is asinine. You actually believe your assault rifles is the reason you can still be safe in your own country. That says more about America than anything else. Note that the same mentality exists in the likes of Afghanistan.
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:06   Link #3528
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I find it even more worrying that you are equivalencing the fear of a military invasion to the desire to keep assault weapons.
We don't have "assault weapons" in the US for sale without a Class III license that requires an extensive background check by the FBI, registration with the IRS (tax stamp) and BATF (form 4).
AR-15s are not assault rifles (the AR stands for Armalite, the company that makes it).
So what are you talking about?
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:11   Link #3529
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I'm glad now that there's TWO of you, you guys can now totally speak for the other 6.7 billion that doesn't live in the US
There are plenty of US citizens like you who like to talk on behalf of US non USA citizens. That does not change the fact that only in the USA (a country that has not been invaded since Pancho Villa and even then it was irrelevant) has as one of its top priorities gun ownership when it is plain for everyone to see that there are plenty of relevant issues to be fixed ASAP. When Clinton mustered the guts to pass the assault weapon ban NOTHING happened, the sky did not come crashing down, the USA was not invaded, the crime rates did not skyrocketed, the economy was not affected, cat and dogs did not start living in peace, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
We don't have "assault weapons" in the US for sale without a Class III license that requires an extensive background check by the FBI, registration with the IRS (tax stamp) and BATF (form 4).
AR-15s are not assault rifles (the AR stands for Armalite, the company that makes it).
So what are you talking about?
Most people include semi-automatic into the assault weapon category. Anyway, for easier understanding, when people talk about a ban on assault weapons, they are talling about a ban on semi-automatic, there, happy now?
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:13   Link #3530
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Notice how the shooting last night is being swept under the proverbial rug.
More than 50 shots fired at Fashion Island mall; suspect held
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3525149.story

But that was in California where they've had an assault weapon and high-cap mag ban since the 1990s, so that one doesn't count.
Saw it on CNN, they didn't have much info atm though...
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:15   Link #3531
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I find it even more worrying that you are equivalencing the fear of a military invasion to the desire to keep assault weapons.

If Taiwan gets invaded, it ceases to exist. You are saying to lose your precious guns means America would die... Which I guess, I HAVE heard online very frequently. In the same breath as claiming Obama is a communist dictator.

And that's why I say it is asinine. You actually believe your assault rifles is the reason you can still be safe in your own country. That says more about America than anything else. Note that the same mentality exists in the likes of Afghanistan.

No, that's just you trying to twist my words and put new ones in my mouth. Please read through both my response and what I was responding TO first thoroughly before you start jumping to conclusions.

Here, let me try to make it as simple as possible so you can follow:

Ogon stated that gun control even being an issue is by itself bad.

I disagreed, as every country has their own unique circumstances that leads to a unique set of issues to deal with, and provided some examples.

How can that possibly equate to me saying gun control = invasion is beyond me.

And please, stop trying to act like you even remotely know what my believes are or what I think about safety in America in general. You're so blinded by your own preconceptions you can't see out past your own bubble, which ironically makes you behave exactly like the extremists on the other side which you despise so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
There are plenty of US citizens like you who like to talk on behalf of US non USA citizens.
Please, I'd love to see you quote me behaving that way. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Quote:
Most people include semi-automatic into the assault weapon category.
and they would be wrong to do so. If a bunch of people started calling horses elephants, does it make the two of them the same?

Quote:
Anyway, for easier understanding, when people talk about a ban on assault weapons, they are talling about a ban on semi-automatic, there, happy now?
Also incorrect. When people talk about ban on assault weapons, they're talking about a ban on "assault-looking" weapons, while dealing little with their actual capability. There has been no national ban on semi-automatics, which would in effect ban the vast majority of modern (and frankly non-modern) firearms.
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:20   Link #3532
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I disagreed, as every country has their own unique circumstances that leads to a unique set of issues to deal with, and provided some examples.

How can that possibly equate to me saying gun control = invasion is beyond me.
To be fair, the only example you used of another country's unique issue was being invaded by China.
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:22   Link #3533
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
To be fair, the only example you used of another country's unique issue was being invaded by China.
I would assume that pointing that out and telling him to think to his own country's set of problems would be enough to make my point, do I really need to go through every country's unique issues?
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:24   Link #3534
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
do I really need to go through every country's unique issues?
No, but you said you had no idea how they could be equated. That's how. Only two are mentioned: 1 for America, 1 for Taiwan. America's was gun control, Taiwan's was being invaded by China. Therefore, the two are automatically in comparison for being equal issues, at least for their respective countries.
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:25   Link #3535
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Please, I'd love to see you quote me behaving that way. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
fixed it for ya, at least I'm assuming that you're not actually trying to proclaim yourself Speaker of the World here.
Quote:
There has been no national ban on semi-automatics, which would in effect ban the vast majority of modern (and frankly non-modern) firearms.
Federal Assault Weapons Ban
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:37   Link #3536
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
This bill has been in consideration for years here (I'm from Michigan), to answer your question, this applies only to people who already have their CCW, and would require additional mandatory training course before they can apply for this.
So, those trained gun owners... will they know each other? Because that's the point that's always stumped me. Assuming a psycho starts shooting people at random, and several well intentioned gun owners jump into the fray (instead of the saner reaction of crawling away in wet pants), how will they know the good guys from the psycho's possible accomplices?
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:45   Link #3537
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
No, but you said you had no idea how they could be equated. That's how. Only two are mentioned: 1 for America, 1 for Taiwan. America's was gun control, Taiwan's was being invaded by China. Therefore, the two are automatically in comparison for being equal issues, at least for their respective countries.
Did you also not read through my post and what I was responding to, and Valiant's interpretation of them? attempting to equate the two would mean that either they didn't pay attention to what was actually being said, or are intentionally distorting what was said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
How is telling someone that they're only speaking for themselves and not the rest of the planet becomes me trying to talk on behalf of him? In case you haven't realized, I was criticizing his attempt to do what you're accusing me of doing.

FFS, actually read through what I wrote and stop jumping to conclusions.

And yes, I'm quite aware of the old AWB, maybe you're simply not familiar with weapons in general, but most of the stuff on that list has more to do with the look and form of the weapon than their core capability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So, those trained gun owners... will they know each other? Because that's the point that's always stumped me. Assuming a psycho starts shooting people at random, and several well intentioned gun owners jump into the fray (instead of the saner reaction of crawling away in wet pants), how will they know the good guys from the psycho's possible accomplices?
Of course not, which is another common misconception really of the CCW crowd by those not familiar with the issues. They don't advocate themselves as some sort of replacement for LE, the primary intent has always been the protection of yourself and those around you.

For example. assuming a mall shooting scenario. A CCW holder should not seek out and confront the shooter if he/she is not in immediate danger, but rather seek cover and protection like everyone else, the weapon is what he/she should use should the shooter comes to them. On the other hand, in clear cases where the shooter started blasting rounds right in front of the ccw holder, he/she will have the option to fire back if they should choose.
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Old 2012-12-16, 15:50   Link #3538
james0246
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Stop all Gun Control Discussion. This is not the thread for a discussion of Gun Control (that one was locked), and if they continue as they have then I will start issuing infractions and bans.
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Old 2012-12-16, 16:51   Link #3539
GundamFan0083
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I prefer John Kerry as Obama's pick to replace Hilary, so I hope this source is correct. For all that I disagree with Kerry on, I agree with many of his foreign policy stances (especially when it comes to getting US jobs back into the united states).

Source: Obama has chosen John Kerry as Secretary of State
http://www.suntimes.com/17019560-761...-of-state.html
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Old 2012-12-16, 17:10   Link #3540
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I prefer John Kerry as Obama's pick to replace Hilary, so I hope this source is correct. For all that I disagree with Kerry on, I agree with many of his foreign policy stances (especially when it comes to getting US jobs back into the united states).

Source: Obama has chosen John Kerry as Secretary of State
http://www.suntimes.com/17019560-761...-of-state.html
I am concerned that this is what the GOP wanted because it gives them a shot at taking Kerry's seat in the Senate -- which is exactly the game they were playing to begin with. Obama could have put anyone up, Rice was just unlucky because the GOP wanted Kerry out of the Senate, hoping to put Scott Brown there.
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