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Old 2012-12-15, 10:56   Link #6641
Kaijo
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Between bad mostache villains and bad cartoonish villains I am in for a ride… no thanks. They Hückebein, the Grendels, Hardis… none of them is worth anything. Pick between them is pointless. But if I have to choose I take the Hückebein any time. At least they did try to look evil at first, the Grendels didn’t even attempt to pretend they were more than comic relief villains with the same deep and personality of toilet paper.
The Grendels were never meant to be taken seriously as any kind of major villains. This is fairly typical in shonen series, which you'll notice if you watch enough. There is a crap group of bad guys who exist solely for the good guys to kick the shit out of, thus showing how good (or better) the good guys have gotten, and also setting the stage for how powerful the bad guys are among the stars. We now know that the Hucks are step above most other Eclipse infectees out there, and that RF6 really did practice and prepare to deal with Eclipse people; they just weren't quite prepared for how determined, sneaky, and strong the Hucks were.

*That* was the purpose of the Grendels.

Of course, we could always find out later that the Grendels have other secrets, or another purpose to them, such as being caught deliberately. They might also be used as a showcase for Shamal's cure/treatment (if she gets one perfected). Perhaps Carter himself wanted his "family" to get captured because they heard RF6 might have a cure, and he secretly wants his family to live out a normal life.

But since I haven't actually read up to that point in the manga since it is untranslated, I'll wait and see. But I can at least surmise the the primary purpose of the Grendels, if nothing else, based on experience watching shonen series.
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Old 2012-12-15, 11:21   Link #6642
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You're talking about his sudden teleport powers xD?
Yeah, it's the kind of thing that could be a major surprise later, so I don't know why you'd blow the reveal over nothing.
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Old 2012-12-15, 13:01   Link #6643
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Agreed. The point of the Grendels is being just a comic relief cartoonish villains. But that is what makes them so bad to me. All their scenes aren’t funny, interesting or even down entertaining. I can see them being animated as the most loud and annoying type of human being possible, and that is never good, no matter how much shonen I see. Just because is cliché and is in so many other media to the point is common means I will just accept them. I will hate that kind of things in any series where is play bad, as here.

And no, they aren’t improving anything. Yeah is smart how they move the bomb to the shoulder, but if they are so freaking goods: why they even take the job in the first place? Maybe will be talk later, but so far they seem to be just kind of there and their existence serve no reason from a story telling perspective other than to show Vandin being able to replace the Hückebein with even lamer characters.

You see Force have been playing with its tone since the beginning. It seem darker and a little more “serious” than the other seasons with people exploding in to ball of flesh, Veyron killing 3 nuns just because, Signum being cut in half and impale on the ground, etc. So with all of that they return too goofy plain old magical girl stuff that makes us laugh, like the Grendels. In other series the comic relief and the more serious stuff is handle better, here? It is not, starting with the fact that ALL the villains are comic relief cartoonish people. Even Curren or Hardis. They just come in and out with so much freedom and the antagonism moves to here and there for no good reasons that is hard for me to tell who I am suppose to side with. I know is SD6 but I am trying to make a point here.

In the end is just down bad characters. I can’t connect with them or force me to care. Something the first two seasons did a lot better, showing the characters with not more deepness but understandable and sympathetic back stories. Here? I have little and nothing for the Hückebein and Grendel families. And something with the powers. Since they explain it so bad, it doesn’t matter. You see because any character can have any power that the plot needs them to have. Like that nun who has the same power as Sein in StrikerS, can you think how will that end if she didn’t have that? Or Carter itself, how could they escape if he could not put cloths and weapons out of his ass? Talking about convenience, I wonder how things could go if Hardis didn’t have a Divider… is a good thing that the characters have the powers the plot needs them to have, right? So no, to be me is a lot of bullshit really.
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Old 2012-12-15, 13:47   Link #6644
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Why they took the job? To get caught later and escape from those guys I guess. Now that Nanoha's befriended them, they will be true friends.
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:04   Link #6645
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Maybe you are right. I mean who will not want to be friends with Nanoha? The other option is a SLB to the face to is pretty much the only real option here
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:29   Link #6646
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Agreed. The point of the Grendels is being just a comic relief cartoonish villains. But that is what makes them so bad to me. All their scenes aren’t funny, interesting or even down entertaining. I can see them being animated as the most loud and annoying type of human being possible, and that is never good, no matter how much shonen I see. Just because is cliché and is in so many other media to the point is common means I will just accept them. I will hate that kind of things in any series where is play bad, as here.

And no, they aren’t improving anything. Yeah is smart how they move the bomb to the shoulder, but if they are so freaking goods: why they even take the job in the first place? Maybe will be talk later, but so far they seem to be just kind of there and their existence serve no reason from a story telling perspective other than to show Vandin being able to replace the Hückebein with even lamer characters.

You see Force have been playing with its tone since the beginning. It seem darker and a little more “serious” than the other seasons with people exploding in to ball of flesh, Veyron killing 3 nuns just because, Signum being cut in half and impale on the ground, etc. So with all of that they return too goofy plain old magical girl stuff that makes us laugh, like the Grendels. In other series the comic relief and the more serious stuff is handle better, here? It is not, starting with the fact that ALL the villains are comic relief cartoonish people. Even Curren or Hardis. They just come in and out with so much freedom and the antagonism moves to here and there for no good reasons that is hard for me to tell who I am suppose to side with. I know is SD6 but I am trying to make a point here.

In the end is just down bad characters. I can’t connect with them or force me to care. Something the first two seasons did a lot better, showing the characters with not more deepness but understandable and sympathetic back stories. Here? I have little and nothing for the Hückebein and Grendel families. And something with the powers. Since they explain it so bad, it doesn’t matter. You see because any character can have any power that the plot needs them to have. Like that nun who has the same power as Sein in StrikerS, can you think how will that end if she didn’t have that? Or Carter itself, how could they escape if he could not put cloths and weapons out of his ass? Talking about convenience, I wonder how things could go if Hardis didn’t have a Divider… is a good thing that the characters have the powers the plot needs them to have, right? So no, to be me is a lot of bullshit really.
A very respectable opinion since those are your tastes.

Personally, i was pissed at all the sudden "grimdark" tone FORCE luanched on it's first chapters (among "other" issues most of the forum already heard from me xDU). An when the Grendels first appeared i was like "great, more overpowered characters" ...then i was "meh, they're just second runner to the Huckebein" ...then they started to show hidden depths (not only Carter but the girls as well) and sort of moving the plot themselves by unveiling key information and while bieng goofy i think it's kind of refreshing, naturally it has been done much better on other works (like Tenguen Toppa Gurren Lagann, that series mixes grimdark with bombastic goofiness pretty well xD) ...but i received well the bit of phresh air after all this density and plot stuckiness (possesed Tohma's fight lasted for almost a year -_-).

What i also like about them is that so far they haven't been used excessively, they are shown from time to time so we can get a grasp of what's going on with them but now Curren assaulted Hardis's detention room and another Hucks. VS. S6 battle is about to start. Hardis revealed the reason behind his smug smile as he's shown to be the strongest character in the Nanohaverse at least for now, stripping Curren from the title. That means he don't need to fear anyone cuz he can simply curbstomp the daylights out of whoever he wants. I'm still waiting for the next Chapter to see if Curren has lost her plot armor and is now vulnerable to te heroes's attempts at attacking her.

Goofy-yet-competent characters tend to get in the way of any of the parties at the most unexpected moment. I'll find incredibly fun if the Grendels manage to foil one of the goals of any of the pareties (Vandin/Huckebein/Section Six) ...extra points if they do it by ACCIDENT xD!

So well, for me is nice to hav ethem on the boat cuz the pwoer levels in this season are crazylly unbalanced so it's nice to have characters who don't rely mainly on strenght to be enjoyable.
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Old 2012-12-15, 16:36   Link #6647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Agreed. The point of the Grendels is being just a comic relief cartoonish villains. But that is what makes them so bad to me. All their scenes aren’t funny, interesting or even down entertaining. I can see them being animated as the most loud and annoying type of human being possible, and that is never good, no matter how much shonen I see. Just because is cliché and is in so many other media to the point is common means I will just accept them. I will hate that kind of things in any series where is play bad, as here.
It's a well established thing in pretty much any action series, ever. There is always an established scene, where the hero (or heroes) beats down some lesser bad guys to show how good they are, and set up for how good the main bad guy(s) are. Odds are, you've watched it many times already. You may as well declare that you dislike every action series and movie, ever.

Also, they aren't comedic relief; as I said, they are mainly just trashable bad guys for the sake of letting the heroes show off. Sure, they could have had more to them, but their primary purpose has been the primary purpose of every lesser bad guy, like, ever. If you're not finding comedy in Force, I suggest you back up and realize you're reading Nanoha here. It's never really been known for it's comedy. There have been minor bits here and there, but it's never been a focus. There is no real comedy in Force, and it's not meant to be there.

Quote:
In the end is just down bad characters. I can’t connect with them or force me to care.
This is a common problem among series that start as anime, and then go to manga form. You were previously getting moving color pictures and sound, and now you're just getting static black-and-white images. Considering anime plays upon more senses, it has a better chance of connecting you more with the characters. Not always, of course, but especially in this case, your brain is having a difficult time ascribing the same emotional connection. It's like going from perfect 20/20 vision, to a blurry tunnel-esque vision. Your brain is simply not getting the same amount of stimulus, so it responds weaker.

But of course, whether we like something or not, is purely subjective. For you, I'd suggest you stop reading, then. Or at least wait until it's all done. Or perhaps focus on Vivid or Innocent, if that is more your cup of tea. For me, I don't care for Innocent much, and so I don't keep track of it.

Everything changes, nothing remains the same. We either change with it, or stubbornly sit there while life goes on around us. The Nanoha series is changing as well.
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Old 2012-12-15, 16:45   Link #6648
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There is no real comedy in Force, and it's not meant to be there.
All of your post sounds very reasonable but i must disagree on that part. The series as a whole is definetely itnended to be more serious and dark than previous installements (with varying degrees of success xDU). But the Grendels are blatant comic relief characters, in their few appearances they had beaten the record of funny cartoon faces of all the cast combined, they also cover lots of comedic stereotypes: The loud and flamboyant leader Carter, the heavy Tsundere-ish Maria (seriously she could be a Kugimiya Rie character without trouble xDU), the resident cloud cuckoolander Lolo ...heck, even Quinn with her serious personality plays the foil for most of the group xDU

Sure they may not be very successfull at comedy but the intention of the characters is clear. Of course they also fill the bill for disposable lesser villains (as the Wolks play the role of disposable lesser heroes xDU). But their intention as comedic characters is painfully obvious xDU
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:04   Link #6649
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All of your post sounds very reasonable but i must disagree on that part. The series as a whole is definetely itnended to be more serious and dark than previous installements (with varying degrees of success xDU). But the Grendels are blatant comic relief characters, in their few appearances they had beaten the record of funny cartoon faces of all the cast combined, they also cover lots of comedic stereotypes: The loud and flamboyant leader Carter, the heavy Tsundere-ish Maria (seriously she could be a Kugimiya Rie character without trouble xDU), the resident cloud cuckoolander Lolo ...heck, even Quinn with her serious personality plays the foil for most of the group xDU

Sure they may not be very successfull at comedy but the intention of the characters is clear. Of course they also fill the bill for disposable lesser villains (as the Wolks play the role of disposable lesser heroes xDU). But their intention as comedic characters is painfully obvious xDU
Well, as I've noted before, I have yet to actually see those chapters (the translation ends before they show up, and I haven't cared to dig up raws). But there is a clear distinction I feel needs to be made here.

There are few moments, here and there, in Force (even before the Grendels show up), that are meant to be amusing. But they aren't strictly comedy, either. They aren't meant to make you laugh, so much as bring a bit of a smile. A few lighthearted moments, meant to break the tension of the darker elements present.

That's a bit different than actual comedy. And Force itself is not meant to be a comedy (and neither is Nanoha in general, meant to be a comedy). One of my first real laugh out loud moments was in Season 1, where Nanoha sees Yuuno as a boy for the first time. It was a lighthearted moment, but S1 was in no way a comedy.

That's what we're dealing with here. Yes, the Grendels have specific traits, but I'd wager that's just Tsuzuki being lazy and reducing the trash bad guys to walking stereotypes to make it easy. Minor bad guys aren't known for heavy development or characterization, after all. Their only job is to make just enough of an impact that they aren't Stormtrooper #4352 and pose at least a little danger... and then get walloped/captured/etc.
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:09   Link #6650
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The stuff with Touma and Section Six, okay, but there's also been attempts at humor with the Hucks that just come off as black comedy, which isn't exactly appropriate for this series.

Honestly, if having designated people for that cuts down on those moments, I'm fine.
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:14   Link #6651
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Well, yeah, that's kind of my point, the Grendels are comic relief characters even if FORCE itself is not a comedy series. There's lots of examples in tons of deep grimdark series (Neon Genesis Evangelion, a very serious and dark series had PenPen and Shinji's schoolmates, for example).

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That's what we're dealing with here. Yes, the Grendels have specific traits, but I'd wager that's just Tsuzuki being lazy and reducing the trash bad guys to walking stereotypes to make it easy. Minor bad guys aren't known for heavy development or characterization, after all. Their only job is to make just enough of an impact that they aren't Stormtrooper #4352 and pose at least a little danger... and then get walloped/captured/etc.
What i find interesting about the Grendels is that they are still getting focus despite being already captured, most disposable Villains are left out of the picture the moment they're defeate or hit the jail ...but for some reason this is not the case so i'm expectant about what Tsuzuki is planning to do with them xD
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:39   Link #6652
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Well, the last thing I'll say about all this comedy stuff, is that despite my words, I don't see Force as particularly dark. I mean, S1 had Fate's whipping and trauma, A's had Hayate seeing her family killed in front of her, and we know there were a ton of deaths in StrikerS that weren't shown. Force is, if anything, just more relaxed on what they can show, as if there are no more censors holding it back (remember nipplegate?).

So, whether you consider it black comedy or no, Force is merely continuing the same general level of tone from before, just no longer restrained on outright showing you things you had to know were out there from before. You had to know there were outright fairly horrible things going on in this world. Jail's impregnation of his cyborgs, Agito's experimentation, etc.

So I don't see this series as particularly dark (and I rather hate applying that term in general; I mainly prefer to just label "darker elements" within a series). Thus, the more lighthearted moments don't seem particularly out of place to me.

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What i find interesting about the Grendels is that they are still getting focus despite being already captured, most disposable Villains are left out of the picture the moment they're defeate or hit the jail ...but for some reason this is not the case so i'm expectant about what Tsuzuki is planning to do with them xD
There are a couple of lines of thought I had about that:

1. They is more to them that they are hiding, such as possibly working for the ultimate big bad.
2. They will be used to demonstrate a cure (although possibly not a complete one). Tsuzuki can't use a cure on Thoma and get rid of his powers just yet.
3. Carter sees which way the wind is blowing, and is betting by working with the TSAB, he can protect his family. His family might not have entirely gone with it, so he arranged for everyone to be captured
3. Tsuzuki sees what fanservice has done for Vivid's selling numbers, and is trying to ply the useless Grendels for that purpose.

There are a few other angles that could be in play, but they are variants of the above. Then again, at the end of this, there might not be any cure, and Thoma could end taking the surviving members of the Hucks and Grendels off into space, to find a way they can live without killing people. Or perhaps form a new special "EF6" (Eclipse Force 6) with some of the Grendels and possibly Hucks.
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Old 2012-12-15, 18:05   Link #6653
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But Thoma was already cure by Lily on the chapter they melt together the first time. Otherwise how is not a pile of flesh for not killing anything? Lily just melt with him, activate the antigens and presto… that was unrealistic easy. And no, is not that this manga and that was anime, this is still bad characters. I mean I have read manga after watching the anime and like it before.

And yes, I know the formula of using bad guys to show off the hero and then putting the real bad guys. What I don’t get is how the Grendel fit that when they appear after the Hückebein and they still kick the good guys assess. For that matter why we still use the cast from StrikerS when the oldest cast is always more effective and interesting. Yeah, that what keeps me from enjoying Force, its need for being just bad
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Old 2012-12-15, 18:13   Link #6654
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It's not really a case of just being more relaxed. They showed you bad stuff in the early seasons, yes, but it didn't turn around and try to do comedy in the same scene. Force has done so, which is what I don't like. It's quite simple.
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Old 2012-12-15, 18:13   Link #6655
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Touma and Lily's merging wasn't a cure for the Eclipse. Touma is still infected and Lily, being what she is, probably can't be cured, as its probably an integral part of her systems.
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Old 2012-12-15, 18:31   Link #6656
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It was a cure, they say it. Lily just activate the antigens and Thoma hasn't going in anything dangerous with the Eclipse in 3 moths. Thome is cure from being a mindless wild beast or to even have to kill in order to keep it going. For that matter I don't think we ever get to see the Huckebeing killing anything other than Veyron killing 3 nuns and then that Eclipse guy which name I can't remmember
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Old 2012-12-16, 06:42   Link #6657
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Personally, i was pissed at all the sudden "grimdark" tone FORCE luanched on it's first chapters
Grimdark? Force isn't anywhere near grimdark. Darker than previous Nanoha seasons, sure, since more people die and we actually see blood here and there.

But it has a loooong way to go before it can lay claim on the grimdark tag.

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It was a cure, they say it. Lily just activate the antigens and Thoma hasn't going in anything dangerous with the Eclipse in 3 moths. Thome is cure from being a mindless wild beast or to even have to kill in order to keep it going. For that matter I don't think we ever get to see the Huckebeing killing anything other than Veyron killing 3 nuns and then that Eclipse guy which name I can't remmember
They do say it's a cure, but they also say it isn't a complete cure yet. That's why Lily has to stay close to Thoma. It's progress, hence why Shamal is happy, but it's not a complete cure yet. Thoma is still in danger of relapsing.
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Old 2012-12-16, 11:27   Link #6658
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Okay about FORCE being dark, i consider it as such, yeah lots of familiar elements are present but some are gone as well and the intention of "hey this is more serious and darker ...hence cool and different" was blatantly implied during the first half of the story. Veyron openned the curtain by killing nuns inside a church, then the Hucks introduced themselves as a group of Black Leather suited motorbikers with heavy metal vibes, then they despised and mocked whoever they can while salughtering them (an element shown only during the last part of StrikerS by Jail and Quattro specifically, no villain before dared to mock the strenght of the heroes, Precia could but i guess she didn't had the time to make a stop for some villanious cackling xDU). Then obscure and morbid things started to be revealed about the Eclipse and Tohma's involvement with the Silver Cross in a way that screams "Yeah this is daaarker and heaaavier than the Book of Darkness incident".

Fortunately, since the Grendels's introduction things seem to have downgraded to a lighter tone. It still feels like "StrikerS, only darker" but at least the constant intention of shoving down our throats how "cool and dark" this series is seems to be gone and things are running a bit more smoothly now. The Huckebein family ceased to constantly showing off how superior they are and finally started to work on their actual goals which is at least interesting to see (i so want to finally see this so-called "family reunion" Curren has been talking about for YEARS TOT) ...and i'm curious enough to want to see it to the end.

Probably Tsuzuki intended to create a darker Nanoha series but failed and ended up repeating his formula yet again? I don't know. But for what it is i can feel FORCE and the most "purpousefully darker" installement in the Nanoha series (in close competition with the SSX sound stage).

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3. Tsuzuki sees what fanservice has done for Vivid's selling numbers, and is trying to ply the useless Grendels for that purpose.
All of them valid points, in regards of Fanservice i don't see why the Grendels would be so exclusive about it, FORCE has plenty of it even before they came into the picture (Lily is the main offender, then we had Isis naked for the lulz, and Curren Huckebein who is walking fanservice that just happens to be just as sexy as she is strong ...and a bleeding half-naked Signum for some people's tastes xDU). If anything they only provide, again, goofier fanservice (or "guilt free" if you want to see it that way) xDU

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There are a few other angles that could be in play, but they are variants of the above. Then again, at the end of this, there might not be any cure, and Thoma could end taking the surviving members of the Hucks and Grendels off into space, to find a way they can live without killing people. Or perhaps form a new special "EF6" (Eclipse Force 6) with some of the Grendels and possibly Hucks.
Yup one of my guessed endings on the series is that a full cure will never be found and the TSAB will, yet again, sum the season's villains to it's rooster of crimefighters. The thing debated in such a case is that the members with higher responsability among the Hucks will get things not as easy when it comes to clean their books, the Grendels have it a bit easier because they seem to not have caused that many casualties as also being just a bunch of rebelious teenagers while the Huckebein family act like downright terrorists.

The other outcome i have guesses on (and one i would like to happen) is for the Huckebein to remain anti-villains to the end of the season and escape to continue with their lives and purpouse, at least that way they'll remain strong and impressive. Reformed villains in the Nanohaverse tend to suffer demotion over time culminating in becoming mere punchin bags for newer villains xDU
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Old 2012-12-16, 16:48   Link #6659
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I think you didn’t get me there. When I say “darker” I mean as the elements on the story were no longer so… simple, to use a word for it. Yes, Precia did beat Fate and yes, the Wolkenritter dead on A’s was a little too strong but in the end they never went that far with that kind of things. A’s and the first season keep a very nice tone of adventure, friendship and believing in the power of the cards or some crap like that. It was two common and overall generic kids anime with a few elements here and there that make it a little more for us, the fans.

What happen in StrikerS and was carried over to Force is that the show tries to be more and fails. It want to be a magical war, shonen or even mecha series but delivers odd lines, bad plot and terrible characters that come from a more simple show as a magical girl anime is. In the end those elements doesn’t add and becomes something of a mess that didn’t keep me happy. Force has not only play with the same things as StrikerS, makes it even worse. Transforming in to a generic shonen anime with a terrible protagonist and lame villains. Tries to pretend there is a mystery or some hidden agenda for many of the villains but one think is when such mystery add to the story another is when you create such “mystery” in order to make up for a bad plot. And those are Hardis and Curren right there.

The characters have been changing their minds in order to fit the plot without any kind of logic. There is a ton of things that we aren’t told and we have to assume and set ups that ends in rather disappointing results. Is not a “mystery” is just bad writing. Why? Well because the characters actions make no sense. Like the Silver Cross itself, at first was this huge thing that hold the secrets of the Eclipse and the target of both SD6 and the Hückebein family to the point Hayate even says that the Silver Cross is more important than the Hückebein .

But then what happen? The Hückebein let the Silver Cross and Thoma go away for no real reasons and the good guys get them and… nothing happens. Too much for the key to the case, right? Now the Hückebein are important, but turns out there was another faction that, even when we already see it, wasn’t mention until half way the series: the Vandin Corporation. One thing is never brought until much later and creates a whole bunch of questions and make our “elite investigators” look like idiots. Is this bad plot and pacing what hurts the manga most. It does bring up things as police investigation, terrorism, large scale battles, and etc. but forgets the fact we are no longer having 9 years old dealing with this crap but a group of elite train officers, who still act like 9 years old kids with no idea of what they are doing, missing obvious things.

I want just to understand this: the story is bad because it keeps pretending. It try to build up mystery but with no logic or actual mystery. It brings all the clichés in the book but more as padding that as actual development or adds to the story. I know is not complete and maybe will make sense later but take for example this: Isis true last mane, Egret. What that something important? No, but was present as if she did had a good reason to not reveal her identity which is, so far, no big deal. That is why I am afraid the Grendel will be just as that, a unnecessary, boring, ridiculous and lame accessory.
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Old 2012-12-16, 17:11   Link #6660
Kaijo
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We probably all have different subjective definitions for what we consider "dark" and "grimdark" so I'll try to define mine:

I try to use reality as a baseline. If the storyline is consistent about deaths, hopelessness, torture, etc., in what might be considered the worst of reality, then I consider it dark. I'm talking practically no hope, or very little of it. It really must feel like there is no hope, with awful things happening near constantly, and it must seem like there is no way out. That no matter what a character does, nothing good happens.

A couple of anime series that I consider to be good examples of this, are "Here and There, Then and Now" and also "Another." For a manga series that I consider "Dark Shoujo" try "Haou Airen" (and a very strict warning dark, depressing warning on that series).

Death, in and of itself (and no matter how much death there is), does not make a series seem dark to me. There has to be a sense of hopelessness, that struggling doesn't seem to make things better. And things fail through no real fault of the people alone; they are just thwarted at nearly every turn by circumstances beyond their control.

So, when I compare Force to any of the above series, I'm forced to conclude that it really isn't dark. After all, we had mass deaths in S1 (Precia's reactor explosion), A's (the book of darknesses many reincarnations), and Strikers (Jail's attacks weren't bloodless). We had to know each of those mass deaths happened; it's just that Force is actually showing us the bodies. That alone, doesn't make it dark for me.

And Nanoha in general is an idealistic universe, so pink beams of friendship will eventually make everything mostly okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
The characters have been changing their minds in order to fit the plot without any kind of logic. There is a ton of things that we aren’t told and we have to assume and set ups that ends in rather disappointing results. Is not a “mystery” is just bad writing. Why? Well because the characters actions make no sense. Like the Silver Cross itself, at first was this huge thing that hold the secrets of the Eclipse and the target of both SD6 and the Hückebein family to the point Hayate even says that the Silver Cross is more important than the Hückebein .

But then what happen? The Hückebein let the Silver Cross and Thoma go away for no real reasons and the good guys get them and… nothing happens. Too much for the key to the case, right?
Curren/Karen "let" Thoma get away, because the cost of trying to keep him would have been too much; they would have made themselves too much of an enemy to the TSAB, and brought more than RF6 down on them. That's why she only injured Hayate, instead of killing her. That's why they only damaged TSAB ships that came after them, instead of outright destroying them. And Curren/Karen pretty much feels confident that Thoma will eventually come back to them voluntarily (for reasons that will probably be revealed later).

The book of the Silver Cross itself is mainly an artifact that helps in the development of the Eclipse virus, the dividers, etc. That's why it is important. Now that the good guys have it, there isn't much they can do except try to keep it out of bad guy hands, and also study it for a cure. That's its importance.

Quote:
Now the Hückebein are important, but turns out there was another faction that, even when we already see it, wasn’t mention until half way the series: the Vandin Corporation. One thing is never brought until much later and creates a whole bunch of questions and make our “elite investigators” look like idiots. Is this bad plot and pacing what hurts the manga most. It does bring up things as police investigation, terrorism, large scale battles, and etc. but forgets the fact we are no longer having 9 years old dealing with this crap but a group of elite train officers, who still act like 9 years old kids with no idea of what they are doing, missing obvious things.
Perhaps you could point out how their investigation is flawed? As far as I can tell, they are doing what they can, given their limited resources. It's pretty much Hayate that managed to get some permission to reform RF6 to go after the Eclipse problem. The TSAB at large is only halfheartedly addressing it; they haven't made pursuit and elimination of the Hucks any kind of major priority.

Quote:
I want just to understand this: the story is bad because it keeps pretending. It try to build up mystery but with no logic or actual mystery. It brings all the clichés in the book but more as padding that as actual development or adds to the story. I know is not complete and maybe will make sense later but take for example this: Isis true last mane, Egret. What that something important? No, but was present as if she did had a good reason to not reveal her identity which is, so far, no big deal. That is why I am afraid the Grendel will be just as that, a unnecessary, boring, ridiculous and lame accessory.
I'm not sure how you think "pretending" fits into your Isis quandary. We have some hints that Isis is the "daughter" of the Egret Security services, which granted, hasn't been expanded on much. But given that Force has a whole lot longer to go, it's understandable. When you're watching a 13 ep series like A's, do you wonder, after watching ep 4: "Why isn't it telling us where these Wolkenritter knights come from and why are they doing what they are doing?" Even more so with the masked guy that turns up later, that it takes another 5 episodes before we find out his deal.

There will always be questions, and until the series is done, we have no choice but to sit back and see how they reveal the answers to plot points.

Some criticism is fine, but you can't really judge a book by the cover and the first few chapters. At least wait until you get through it before going, "Waaaah! The series isn't explaining everything in the first 30% of the story!"

Last edited by Kaijo; 2012-12-16 at 17:31.
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