[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Also the game makes pretty clear that when Nanjo was killed they were already dead. Eva Beatrice lists the people who're dead when Nanjo was killed which caused Battler troubles because it left only himself, Jessica and Eva. He knew he couldn't have done it, and the same goes for Eva as he was keeping her under control so he suspected Jessica and Eva Beatrice informed him Jessica didn't do it either.

Of course Battler didn't know that Yasu/Sayo was still alive and that only his disguises as Shannon and Kanon had been killed so he couldn't figure out there was an extra person going around killing Nanjo.

If that were true then Battler wouldn't have been able to make the argument that someone faked there death then died shortly afterwards.


Here is a thought, Beatrice often refers to land as her perfect game. In both Turn and Legend something didn't go entirely as planned. Going off of what Kiltias said about the two games having the same first victims it's entirely possible that both Turn and Legend were games used to compensate incase something went wrong. In Legend although Hideyoshi and Eva are accomplices it's possible they didn't become accomplices until later in the story (Like when the three were alone in front of the gardening shed). The rest of Legend seems to go entirely as planned after that. Turn is the opposite. The beginning goes perfectly as planned but half way through her accomplice gets smart and starts trying to hide away with the people she thinks are safe. Yasu compensates for this by making the servants fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death and pulls people out of Rosa's closed room. So in Land I'm thinking that everything goes entirely as planned and the accomplices do exactly what she says. If this is true I would really like to read it.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

At that point we'd just be grasping at straws, because we have no idea how such a process even works to begin with or what "tempering influences" are represented by what character. How could we possibly expect to be able to confirm that or even guess at it without the mechanics of it being presented?

Between Shannon and Kanon, Kanon is the one who is sullen, withdrawn, and voices negative opinions about people, while Shannon is the one who tries to be pleasant and sociable and see the best in people. With respect to Yasu's real personality, it seems clear that Kanon ended up being something like a release valve for her. If "Kanon" becomes a real, separate person, then all of that negativity just stays bottled up behind her Shannon facade, doesn't it?

Incidentally, I picked Kanon to split since he has an ironclad alibi for one of the Man From 19 Years Ago phone calls.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Between Shannon and Kanon, Kanon is the one who is sullen, withdrawn, and voices negative opinions about people, while Shannon is the one who tries to be pleasant and sociable and see the best in people. With respect to Yasu's real personality, it seems clear that Kanon ended up being something like a release valve for her. If "Kanon" becomes a real, separate person, then all of that negativity just stays bottled up behind her Shannon facade, doesn't it?

Assuming that attitude even exists in End. I think it's a little more complicated to yank Kanon out of that arrangement and grant him full personhood for one story and then say "and then it changes the setup like this." You don't know that. You cannot possibly know that. I can't know that. You could be right, but you're making an educated guess at best because the author refuses to define the workings of a system he probably realizes will sound stupid no matter how he explains it.

A lot of our guesses sound nice and make more sense than knowing nothing, but we can't confirm them. We're wandering way far afield when we say "If Kanon got made his own person for End only, it would change Shannon's motives in this way" when we're already guessing at Shannon's motives in every other scenario and barely understand how the two interact under normal circumstances save that "they do." Would Kanon being just another servant and not a refuge for the host servant's loneliness and anger cause her to become fixated on vengeance over understanding? Maybe. Maybe not. Could be, but how the hell are we supposed to know?

It's not that I'm trying to belittle your point here, but it's frustrating because no matter how much nicer it sounds than whatever else we've thrown out here before it's ultimately no more meaningful.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Valkama

If that were true then Battler wouldn't have been able to make the argument that someone faked there death then died shortly afterwards.

What do you mean with 'if that were true?'

The game says as follows:

As they called Jessica's name, Battler and Eva ran to the front of the parlor.

...They were searching for Jessica because they had gone to the servants' room, found Nanjo's corpse, and didn't know where Jessica was.

".........So, what's your point? ......What are you trying to say?"
"Y, .........you couldn't be.........Oh no......"

Beato went pale.
...That made it clear that the move the evil witch was trying to make was bad enough to make Beato go pale...

"This time, ......I'll give you a fatal move that you won't be able to talk yourself out of. ...No, I'll make this move against all humans who support you. Listen carefully to my move."

"S, ......stop it..., that move is.........!"
"Beato, stay back...!! I'll take it! Come on, you fake witch!!"

"After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision. Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice. By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva. "
"Wh, ......whaat............?"

"I'll seal you, and humans as well, ......in a red barrier that most certainly cannot be escaped from. Farewell, lowly humans. Sleep for all eternity in a absolute closed room of magic with no exits. ......Come on, listen carefully. Listen to the red truth."

There are no more than 18 people on this island.
Throw away your foolish thoughts of mysterious people hiding and committing crimes.

...But if I say it this way, you could also suspect animal culprits.
It would be unbearable to hear an irrational theory about how an orangutan trained to commit murder wouldn't count as a human.

So, I'll change it like this.

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
That's how it is. Next, I'll explain the situation for all 18 people who exist on this island.

Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead.
Natsuhi is dead.
Hideyoshi is dead.
George is dead.
Rudolf is dead.
Kyrie is dead.
Rosa is dead.
Maria is dead.
Genji is dead.
Shannon is dead.
Kanon is dead.
Gohda is dead.
Kumasawa is dead.
Nanjo is dead.
The 15 people mentioned are dead.

And.

Battler is alive.
Eva is alive.
Jessica is alive.

This is all 18 people!

"So you understand that accordingly, when the last victim, Nanjo, died, only three people, Battler, Eva, and Jessica, were alive, right?"

".........Wh, ......what did you say...? ......Y, ......you bitch, ...you couldn't mean............"

"Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching over her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room."

"......And I know what you're thinking. Your next move will be this, right? There's also a chance that Jessica is the culprit! But too bad, I'll slice it up in red before you try!!"

"Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder! She was not involved with Nanjo's murder!! Her eyes were completely blocked. It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that! And here's an extra. Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved!!"

"W, wait a second!! Isn't that weird?!! There are only three humans, then a murder occurs, ......and none of those three were involved? That's insane!!"

"I'll state it clearly. The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica!! In other words, it wasn't one of the survivors. Get iiit?"

"No, umm, .........th, that's right! What about multiple personalities...?! Just like you were originally another personality of Eva oba-san's, ......let's say Jessica had another, witch-like personality, which took the name of 'someone other than Jessica' and killed Doctor Nanjo...!!"

"Moron. I've already said it in red. Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her! No matter what kind of personality she was possessed by, murder could not be carried out with her body! I wonder if you'll be satisfied if I say it this way? No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo! This also applies to Battler and Eva. In other words, no matter how much you try to struggle and interpret it, neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo!"

"Y, ...you've got to be kidding me!!! I mean, everyone else is certainly dead, right?!! Then......all that's left, ......is the 'Doctor Nanjo suicide theory', right?! And the trap theory! The culprit was already dead, but a trap that they had already prepared went off..."

"Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him...!!"

"But wait!! There are only three survivors! You said in red that everyone else is dead! You basically confirmed the life or death status of all 18 people. Furthermore, the existence of a 19th person has already been denied in red...!!"

"In other words, no one can exist except the three survivors!! And yet, a fourth person other than those three appeared before Doctor Nanjo!! Why could a person other than us appear and murder Doctor Nanjo when no 19th person exists?!?! Insane!! You're lying!! You're lying with the red letters!!!"

"The red only tells the truth!!! Isn't doubting that the same as betraying the honor of that witch who's behind you, shriveling up in fear of me and hiding behind your back?!"
"D, .........damn it............!!!"

If we want to go with Battler's theory that someone else killed Nanjo and then died we slam into a bunch of problems.

Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa were declared dead prior to Nanjo's death and the same applies to Rosa and Maria.

This would leave out Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi and George.

I'll say that Battler checked Rudolf and Kyrie and possibly even some of the others if not them all (I don't remember well if he got close enough and if they presented clear signs they were corpses) but let's pretend he didn't check them at all.

If one of them were to be alive he would have to reach Nanjo and kill him to... go die short after in some unknown place for... what? An incident? Not really mystery like.
If that person was previously fatally wounded but still alive then he/she would have likely left drops of blood all around and in this case he/she wouldn't have had a reason to fake his/her death, he/she could have said he/she'd been attacked and defended himself/herself and then ask for medical aid.
It'll be safe than risking to bleed to death.

So likely Beato could have destroyed Battler's blue truth pretty easily as Bern and Lambda did for some blue truths about Ep 1 that Battler used (one of which, if I don't remember wrong, was already disproved by a red Beato used previously although during the duel in EP 4 she didn't counter it)

Originally Posted by Valkama

Here is a thought, Beatrice often refers to land as her perfect game. In both Turn and Legend something didn't go entirely as planned. Going off of what Kiltias said about the two games having the same first victims it's entirely possible that both Turn and Legend were games used to compensate incase something went wrong. In Legend although Hideyoshi and Eva are accomplices it's possible they didn't become accomplices until later in the story (Like when the three were alone in front of the gardening shed). The rest of Legend seems to go entirely as planned after that. Turn is the opposite. The beginning goes perfectly as planned but half way through her accomplice gets smart and starts trying to hide away with the people she thinks are safe. Yasu compensates for this by making the servants fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death and pulls people out of Rosa's closed room. So in Land I'm thinking that everything goes entirely as planned and the accomplices do exactly what she says. If this is true I would really like to read it.

Not really. Beato refers to it as her best tale

"You wrote a tale about it, sealed it in a message bottle, and threw it into the sea! Two of those were discovered later on...! Both of them were stories of cruel serial murders!"
"What a shame that only two of them made it to shore...! How sad that 'Land', my best masterpiece, was never seen by human eyes."

which as a tale doesn't means much as whatever happens in tales and therefore also in all the games which are nothing else but tales, is planned by the writer and, if we want to stretch the meaning and apply it to 'Land' as a game it can simply mean it was a very difficult one or one she particularly enjoyed.

I seem to remember Ryukishi said Land was supposed to be difficult so I guess that's what Beato (who's likely MetaBeato as she's talking with MetaAnge) means.

Originally Posted by Renall

Assuming that attitude even exists in End. I think it's a little more complicated to yank Kanon out of that arrangement and grant him full personhood for one story and then say "and then it changes the setup like this." You don't know that. You cannot possibly know that. I can't know that. You could be right, but you're making an educated guess at best because the author refuses to define the workings of a system he probably realizes will sound stupid no matter how he explains it.

A lot of our guesses sound nice and make more sense than knowing nothing, but we can't confirm them. We're wandering way far afield when we say "If Kanon got made his own person for End only, it would change Shannon's motives in this way" when we're already guessing at Shannon's motives in every other scenario and barely understand how the two interact under normal circumstances save that "they do." Would Kanon being just another servant and not a refuge for the host servant's loneliness and anger cause her to become fixated on vengeance over understanding? Maybe. Maybe not. Could be, but how the hell are we supposed to know?

It's not that I'm trying to belittle your point here, but it's frustrating because no matter how much nicer it sounds than whatever else we've thrown out here before it's ultimately no more meaningful.

I'm starting to think we see 'End' as different because actually the point of view is different. It's possible this time the narrator isn't Battler (whose point of view isn't reliable anymore) or because Battler is actually an accomplice.
In Ep 3 Eva might have been blackmailed as well, EvaBeatrice talking to her might have been the equivalent version of the man of 19 years ago.

Instead than a phonecall saying 'I'm your child' she got one saying 'I'm Beatrice/the witch inside you and I'll help you get the money if you do as I say'.

Then the voice might have tried trapping Eva in a situation similar to Natsuhi, Kyrie got suspicious so she questioned Hideyoshi but things went wrong and they died.

In short we would still have a manipulative, vengeful and mean Yasu but it's more hidden than the one in Ep 5, a Yasu that wants to take away from Eva everything she loves because Eva said something along the line of her being below George implying only money and not love matters.

Same for Ep 2 in which Yasu might have claimed of being her mother to force Rosa into being an accomplice.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If we want to go with Battler's theory that someone else killed Nanjo and then died we slam into a bunch of problems.

Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa were declared dead prior to Nanjo's death and the same applies to Rosa and Maria.

This would leave out Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi and George.

I'll say that Battler checked Rudolf and Kyrie and possibly even some of the others if not them all (I don't remember well if he got close enough and if they presented clear signs they were corpses) but let's pretend he didn't check them at all.

If one of them were to be alive he would have to reach Nanjo and kill him to... go die short after in some unknown place for... what? An incident? Not really mystery like.
If that person was previously fatally wounded but still alive then he/she would have likely left drops of blood all around and in this case he/she wouldn't have had a reason to fake his/her death, he/she could have said he/she'd been attacked and defended himself/herself and then ask for medical aid.
It'll be safe than risking to bleed to death.

So likely Beato could have destroyed Battler's blue truth pretty easily as Bern and Lambda did for some blue truths about Ep 1 that Battler used (one of which, if I don't remember wrong, was already disproved by a red Beato used previously although during the duel in EP 4 she didn't counter it)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's how Nanjo died. You said that they were dead before Nanjo's murder and you used Eva's red as evidence. My rebuttle "If that were true" was merely saying that the red didn't deny that they faked there death killed Nanjo and then died shortly after which is how Battler could make that theory.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Valkama

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's how Nanjo died. You said that they were dead before Nanjo's murder and you used Eva's red as evidence. My rebuttle "If that were true" was merely saying that the red didn't deny that they faked there death killed Nanjo and then died shortly after which is how Battler could make that theory.

Okay but it still remains the problem of how they could be alive.
Natsuhi and Krauss were clearly staked and Battler saw they had strangulations signs.
I think it's enough to say he checked they were dead.

The same goes from George. According to Battler he couldn't see in him any sign of life.

Hideyoshi is clearly staked in the chest, Rudolf has a stake on his forehead and Kyrie one in her stomach. Battler viewed them so, since he's the detective and what he sees is reliable I'll say here the deaths were checked as well.

In short even if those deaths aren't confirmed by the red they're confirmed by the detective.

Of course Battler doesn't know he is blessed with the reliable point of view of the detective so he can make that theory but we know.

The red for Rosa and Maria's death is also confirmed by the red that define the cause for their death. In short even if we say that the red declaring Rosa's death applied only to... let's say her good mama personality, she had a stab to the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence which makes her chance to survive pretty nonexistant.

Interesting enough, the first 6 victims didn't have the cause of their death declared (we only know it wasn't suicide or a trap) and, although Shannon is in the same room in which George is lying death, Battler doesn't say a word about her, implying he doesn't check her life or death status.
In the manga she's even represented as lying on her stomach, so he couldn't see the 'wound' on her chest.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Interesting enough, the first 6 victims didn't have the cause of their death declared (we only know it wasn't suicide or a trap) and, although Shannon is in the same room in which George is lying death, Battler doesn't say a word about her, implying he doesn't check her life or death status.
In the manga she's even represented as lying on her stomach, so he couldn't see the 'wound' on her chest.

Also noteworthy is, how the statement "The above mentioned 15 people are dead" was uncolored in the novelization and the PS3 version of EP3, thus heavily hinting at the culprit being hidden there. It becomes obvious once one considers the culprit 'Beatrice' using the same narrative body as Shannon and Kanon.

Though this would make EP3 the most cruel game in the process as it would more than any other game imply that 'Beatrice' has actually lost her marbles and went on a killing spree.
The only thing that helps with this is the End Roll of EP1 already saying that none of the theories put out after the message bottle was found and the Witch Serial Murder craze started was actually correct.

[GuestSpeaker]

That said, there's no evidence I can think of that "Beatrice" actually exists in End or Dawn. So I guess it's only an issue in the first four games (or, at the absolute lower limit, Turn and Alliance), for which there is no exact person count given. Although the final battle of Alliance might cause problems with that, I don't know.

I think you don't have to count her for the same reason she never did, she was a witch, not a human. Her title as a piece is the first witch, hence she doesn't have to be in the 18 count.


I had a very elegant theory for the parlor scene in 5, involving how the game signposted with clues that the number of people had changed, but one of Lambda's reds (at least in the manga) crushed that theory to small and sad pieces.


I always thought the point in three was that Kyrie survived, even her TIP pointed out that a wound to what most people refer to as the stomach isn't immediately fatal (even in a thin person it's mostly fat, space and some gut). Though she only has gameboard motivations to play dead in front of Battler (or be conveniently unconscious) even seeing a stake in there means nothing

[GuestSpeaker]

Also note what comes with the American version of the Uminelo anime:

[Premium box with bonus item: A full-color, 28-page hardcover art book, which will provide a deeper understanding of the series with an in-depth story analysis, detailed character bios, and character sketches

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I think you don't have to count her for the same reason she never did, she was a witch, not a human. Her title as a piece is the first witch, hence she doesn't have to be in the 18 count.

I hardly see that as fair though. If George is a furry and his spirit animal is a panda, does that mean he can "kill" himself, assume his fursona, and evade person checks while snacking on delicious bamboo?

[lpf]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Battler saw them dead, which is as good as a confirmation as he's the detective.
So it's possible they killed Rosa and Maria and tried to kill/killed Hideyoshi in Ep 3 but they should have ended up being killed by the time Battler found them.

This riddle specifically needs to consider the possibility of misdiagnosed deaths, which raises an assumption that many investigators take for granted but which I would be interested in hearing opinions about: can Battler guarantee a character's death on Beatrice's gameboard?

My basis for doubting this ability of his is the happenings in Dawn. In this episode, a clear distinction is made between being the detective (which Battler is: Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!) and declaring the detective's authority (which Battler never did). Being the detective only means the narration from his or her point of view can't deceive the reader by telling falsehoods. It doesn't mean the detective can't be deceived, by faked or misdiagnosed deaths, for instance.

'Van Dine's 2nd: No wilful tricks or deceptions may be played on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.'

(I am not using this rule as an authority and it doesn't fit Umineko as a whole at all, but I found the phrasing nicely fitting for this case.)

I realise that the gameboards in Chiru are filled with irregularities, and that the characters do not always tell the truth about the power they can use—not to mention Ryukishi07 is very whimsical with the rules (regarding the need to provide evidence when stating something in red which is brought up at convenient moments; the capacity to 'lock' the Red Truth; or even the Golden Truth). But do you have clues that would indicate Battler's autopsy being absolute?

Regarding Nanjo's murder, there is something I want to ask for: what is everyone's opinion on the money the survivors were sent after the events? I think solving this riddle first would help solving this one. 07151129 is related to both George (TIPS and time at which it appeared) and Nanjo (the money), and Nanjo is a probable accomplice for George's escape from the guest house. Among the pieces whose death wasn't confirmed, George sounds like a likely culprit. Furthermore, he was injured which could account for his later death.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also noteworthy is, how the statement "The above mentioned 15 people are dead" was uncolored in the novelization and the PS3 version of EP3, thus heavily hinting at the culprit being hidden there. It becomes obvious once one considers the culprit 'Beatrice' using the same narrative body as Shannon and Kanon.

Though this would make EP3 the most cruel game in the process as it would more than any other game imply that 'Beatrice' has actually lost her marbles and went on a killing spree.
The only thing that helps with this is the End Roll of EP1 already saying that none of the theories put out after the message bottle was found and the Witch Serial Murder craze started was actually correct.

That or either it's true Eva never solved the epitaph but Yasu handed her the solution in exchange for her help.
After all in Ep 3 Eva seems to feel responsible for the deaths and yet, if she's not the same as Eva Beatrice, she killed no one and therefore she's not responsible for what had happened.
In short Beato is still following the epitaph as in the other games and, in fact, if you don't know Eva solved the epitaph (and pieces didn't know it) what she's doing is perfectly fine.

The dialogues between Eva and Eva Beatrice are pretty interesting if one thinks at them as dialogues between Eva and Yasu.

I wonder if, in any game, Beato planned to put the blame on someone.
In fact in Ep 4 she pushes the blame on Kinzo (which is possibly the best sacrifical lamb as he's dead) and in Ep 2 she pushes it on Kanon (and the servants by default).

Ep 1 is maybe the oddest because as soon as you suspect someone (Eva, the servants, Natsuhi) he dies...

[GuestSpeaker]

I hardly see that as fair though. If George is a furry and his spirit animal is a panda, does that mean he can "kill" himself, assume his fursona, and evade person checks while snacking on delicious bamboo?

I remember that people had trouble with this because of ep 3, but when did Beatrice actually act on her own after Shannon and Kanon were dead?


Plus if you were given adequate clues that his fursona was walking around and doing stuff and also that he was the body for that fursona, then you probably could. Though I didn't think you needed to for Umineko to work....

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I remember that people had trouble with this because of ep 3, but when did Beatrice actually act on her own after Shannon and Kanon were dead?


Plus if you were given adequate clues that his fursona was walking around and doing stuff and also that he was the body for that fursona, then you probably could. Though I didn't think you needed to for Umineko to work....

Well, it was 'Beato' who killed Nanjo and she did it after Shannon and Kanon were dead.

[GuestSpeaker]

I thought it was a not quite dead person who then died?

Though I guess it was also hinted that Beato may have been playing fake Kanon at that point

[GuestSpeaker]

Also interestingly enough, the manga scanlation of Ep 2 says Shannon's given name is "Kiyo"

[GabrieliosP]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also interestingly enough, the manga scanlation of Ep 2 says Shannon's given name is "Kiyo"

Excuse me? I believe this might have been a mistake on the scanlator's part, but can say give me the number of the chapter so I can check?

[battle22]

Excuse me? I believe this might have been a mistake on the scanlator's part, but can say give me the number of the chapter so I can check?

Translator also Had Kinzo call the child a grandson in Ep5 and Lion was a 'She' in Ep7. So that error is obviously from Wtdnd again.

[GabrieliosP]

Oh right, that translation group. "Lion is treated as a woman because I think he/she is one" is the biggest non-excuse I ever saw for a translator.

[theacefrehley]

No need to cry
EP7 was corrected to a v2 right after

Entitlement much...

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also interestingly enough, the manga scanlation of Ep 2 says Shannon's given name is "Kiyo"

That was not me, but the hiragana for 'ki' (き) and 'sa' (さ) might be mistaken for each other if the quality of the raw scan is low (and the translator is not familiar with the VN)