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Old 2012-12-16, 17:10   Link #201
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Yes, I am, because I did not feel that the just-retired system was that broken to begin with and, even then, many people got upset over receiving negrep that A) ultimately didn't matter, because the more heavily weighted posrep would have eventually rendered the negrep moot; B) was just part of a game that wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
You're right. But I think that these are things that sometimes takes time to learn.

I'll admit that I once attached too much importance to neg rep. It took me some time to realize that, with the possible exception of someone acting as a complete troll, neg rep would never effect you as much as pos rep did.

Once I made that realization, I stopped caring about neg reps aside from concerns over them potentially silencing some unpopular opinions here.

However, I've personally found that opinions are more diversified now then they used to be. I probably wouldn't credit the rep system for that, but it doesn't seem to me to be hurting matters.


Quote:
I strongly believe it will be for the better.
Why? What concrete improvements do you think the change will bring?

I see a couple ways it could get worse. Speaking of which...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
As other users' feedback also seem to show, I agree that the rep system was easily the most convenient tool when a simple "I like your post" is what I wanted to deliver, or an appreciation of someone's thoughtful response to me which I may or may not be inclined to respond in kind. Barring all the moderation headache, it was useful, and scrapping it will not remove the urge to give a simple thanks -- it just makes it harder.

I noticed just as much about the QFT type posts in some other forums, and let me tell you that they are much more annoying than rep by their sheer ability to pollute a thread and render conversation doubly difficult.
I completely agree with this. I think it's very beneficial to have some sort of quick and easy tool for a simple "I like your post" to avoid these QFT type posts. They really can be very annoying and render conversation doubly difficult.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:09   Link #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
However, I've personally found that opinions are more diversified now then they used to be. I probably wouldn't credit the rep system for that, but it doesn't seem to me to be hurting matters.
Your view of the forum's diversity depends heavily on which sections you frequent. In my experience, it has become much less so, especially in the General Chat section, which has been reduced mostly to the jokes thread, the news thread and a handful of die-hard threads that inevitably attract a lot of inflammatory comments.

My view is entirely subjective, of course. My experience could just as well mean that the initial novelty of the forum has long since worn off and that I should have long since gone elsewhere to look for a broader range of more engaging discussions. As for the anime sub-forums, well, I've more than made clear my opinion on their "usefulness" in recent days. Truth be told, I've always found low-traffic standalone threads more "useful" than the mega sub-forums, despite their apparent "diversity".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why? What concrete improvements do you think the change will bring?
1) Popularity and the pursuit of it will no longer be part of the equation. People no longer have an incentive to farm reputation and instead focus on being as constructive as they can with their posts.

2) It will be less intimidating for new members to join in the discussion. They need not fear speaking up against people with OMG massive green bars — which shouldn't have been a factor anyway but, according to past feedback, it apparently was.

3) People as a whole would dare to say exactly what they want to say, without fear of negrep reprisal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think it's very beneficial to have some sort of quick and easy tool for a simple "I like your post" to avoid these QFT type posts. They really can be very annoying and render conversation doubly difficult.
By all means, keep the feedback channel. Just don't revive any vestiges of the reputation system in the form of "likes". Frankly, I don't see why a simple thank-you post via the feedback channel isn't sufficient "reward". Why the need to accumulate "likes", if not for bragging rights? If you really, really must have the "likes", keep it private, so as to avoid returning to the old problem of farming for popularity, and all the other problems that follow the mindset.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:42   Link #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Your view of the forum's diversity depends heavily on which sections you frequent. In my experience, it has become much less so, especially in the General Chat section, which has been reduced mostly to the jokes thread, the news thread and a handful of die-hard threads that inevitably attract a lot of inflammatory comments.
I think that the issues that you're seeing in the General Chat section is related to something other than the rep system, but that's a lengthy and off-topic discussion. I might bring it up to you in PM though.

Now, I thank you for you sharing your reasons for why you think this change will make AS better. However, I see some of this differently.


Quote:
1) Popularity and the pursuit of it will no longer be part of the equation. People no longer have an incentive to farm reputation and instead focus on being as constructive as they can with their posts.
This honestly reads very counter-intuitive to me. To the degree that people are concerned with popularity, wouldn't that serve as added motivation to be "as constructive as they can be with their posts"?

People tend to be appreciative of constructive posts, after all.


Quote:
2) It will be less intimidating for new members to join in the discussion.
Well, I've seen plenty of new members over the past few months, and most don't seem to have much trouble joining in on the discussion.

In fairness to you, I guess this might be some factor at least.


Quote:
3) People as a whole would dare to say exactly what they want to say, without fear of negrep reprisal.
It could be argued that's a double-edged sword. I wonder at times how many flamewars were headed off out of fear of possible neg-rep reprisal by one or more sides of a heated discussion?


Of course, we'll just have to wait and see. But I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as you're making it out to be.


Quote:
By all means, keep the feedback channel. Just don't revive any vestiges of the reputation system in the form of "likes". Frankly, I don't see why a simple thank-you post via the feedback channel isn't sufficient "reward". Why the need to accumulate "likes", if not for bragging rights? If you really, really must have the "likes", keep it private, so as to avoid returning to the old problem of farming for popularity, and all the other problems that follow the mindset.
That's fine. I pretty much agree with you here. But with the rep system gone, there goes the quick feedback channel as well (unless a new one is created in its place, of course).
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:46   Link #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Can I have a more detailed example? I mean, I know that because of the "10 different users" limit, you can't just circlejerk with 2 people easily. How do people get around this? If they create a new account, then they have 0 rep power.
If not detected, people can build a bit of reputation with several accounts, and then simply start a circle when they give rep to themselves using all the dummy accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I still don't see why "gaming positive rep" was a problem, particularly since "gaming" the system didn't influence other forum users' usage of the forum.
Because it is not an isolated activity as many seem to believe, and it's certainly not a "just for fun" activity in the eyes of some. As I mentioned previously, people farm rep to use it and in many cases, they farm it to abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Most suggestions are shot down, and forum changes are often made with no concern for user input. That's not inherently good or bad, but from the user standpoint it doesn't
But some suggestions are considered and often incorporated later on. To name a few from the top of my head:

Custom user titles, the increase in signatures and profile albums, the new options for social groups, these were all changes made on user feedback.

Heck, when I was still a member, I suggested to unlock the [Quote] feature on profiles and "Shocker" my request was accepted and the quote and several other tags were implemented on profiles. The suggestion to implement more custom avatars was also accepted back in the day, and even now, many people still use said avatars.
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:01   Link #205
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Can't say that this particularly reinforces my impression of AS as a community from anime fans for anime fans. Instead it's "We know best what's good for you".
This is one of the best moderated anime boards in existence, working with a rule set that's far superior to any other board I've seen. Surely they are doing something right with the way they've been running things.
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:09   Link #206
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Personally I'm not sad to see it go. I've always tried to be helpful and constructive but I've noticed I tend to never get reputation and the random negative reps I get have almost never made sense to me.
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:14   Link #207
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I was tired yesterday (just got home from an anime con) when posted my comment on this thread.

Posting again with a clearer mind after getting sufficient sleep. Removing reputation system does mean a form of "equality" for members. Members have "equal" rep, since there's no more rep system. New members can now post their opinions without fear of getting - from others.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-12-16 at 19:39.
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:33   Link #208
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
This is one of the best moderated anime boards in existence, working with a rule set that's far superior to any other board I've seen. Surely they are doing something right with the way they've been running things.
It WAS one of the best moderated anime boards in existence over many years, and I'll readily concede that it would be difficult for me to find an equivalent home should I feel it's finally time to move on. But my criticism stands: In recent years, the moderator interference has become more and more intrusive and nannyish. Maybe you are happy with the mods increasingly simply doing as they please - I'm not.

This was the chance to give the community the feeling that their feedback actually mattered and THEN decide based on the feedback what's best. I have no problem to pose a differing opinion and eventually being overruled for a given reason. Simply deciding something first and then opening up a "by the way, here you can comment on our decision" is not the worst option (at least you get the reasoning behind it and a way to voice disagreement), but it sure isn't the best either.

My 0.018
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:54   Link #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Most suggestions are shot down, and forum changes are often made with no concern for user input. That's not inherently good or bad, but from the user standpoint it doesn't feel that nice.
But some suggestions are considered and often incorporated later on.
To just add to this a bit... we wouldn't be good stewards of the forum if we implemented suggestions simply because someone suggests it (and puts forward a "good argument") without also considering the many other inputs we deal with constantly that most people can't see. Most of the staff consider this their online home (as do many of you), and we want to preserve the elements that make the experience enjoyable for as many people as possible. Of course people will have different opinions on how things should be done, but after doing things a certain way for years, you will tend to default towards that status quo unless the reason to change is truly compelling. An example is just how long it took to reach this decision. Every change brings risk, discomfort, and tension (as we see in this thread). A key part of our "job", as it were, is to mitigate this risk.

To be clear, this decision was not made because we want to make the job easier for ourselves as moderators (if anything, there is a high risk of causing problems, particularly in the short term). We wish strongly to improve the discussion experience on the Forum for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
It WAS one of the best moderated anime boards in existence over many years, and I'll readily concede that it would be difficult for me to find an equivalent home should I feel it's finally time to move on. But my criticism stands: In recent years, the moderator interference has become more and more intrusive and nannyish. Maybe you are happy with the mods increasingly simply doing as they please - I'm not.
I want to be clear, in the interest of fairness, that the issues you are introducing into this equation have little to do with this issue. You are attempting to pitch this change as an example of some greater trend to "do whatever [the staff] want", but I do not believe the evidence supports this. Of course, you probably won't believe me because I'm on the staff, so it's not as if what I say here will really make any difference to this perception you have formed.

All the admins and staff are willing to listen to any legitimate grievances anyone has (and if you don't want to talk to one staff member, talk to another), but it becomes difficult if you're going to engage in this sort of tactic. In my view, you should always start by attempting to deal with your issues directly with the person in question, and then go up the chain if that's not effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
This was the chance to give the community the feeling that their feedback actually mattered and THEN decide based on the feedback what's best. I have no problem to pose a differing opinion and eventually being overruled for a given reason. Simply deciding something first and then opening up a "by the way, here you can comment on our decision" is not the worst option (at least you get the reasoning behind it and a way to voice disagreement), but it sure isn't the best either.
If the metrics we had led to a murky conclusion, where preserving the status quo were a viable option, perhaps you could undertake this sort of feedback phase. But we are quite convinced, based on the evidence we see, that the current rep cycle must end, as the rep balance of power has gotten too far out of whack. This understanding is what led to the decision to retire the current system for a while and take this opportunity to wait for a bit before deciding about a future system.

Not discussing the retirement beforehand (or giving advanced notice) is because it is quite likely that this would have resulted in a rush on rep as people try to mess with a system they know is likely to change or be dismantled. So while the objective of openness is worthy, it can also have consequences. That is why the "sudden" and "immediate" change.

I realize you may not agree with these factors, but I can only say that the decision was not made lightly or without due consideration for the community we are trying our best to serve. (Personally speaking, it's a bit sad to let go of the rep that I accumulated over the years, mostly from before I was on the staff.) Again, I realize that you don't have to believe me if you've decided I'm self-interested here. But I can only pledge that I am telling the truth.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-12-16 at 20:21. Reason: darn typos...
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Old 2012-12-16, 20:08   Link #210
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

If the metrics we had led to a murky conclusion, where preserving the status quo were a viable option, perhaps you could undertake this sort of feedback phase. But we are quite convinced, based on the evidence we see, that the current rep cycle must end, as the rep balance of power has gotten too far out of whack.
I don't doubt that power creep was a real issue.

Still, I can think of ways to deal with power creep alone.

Divide each member's rep points by 10. Or by 20. Whatever you felt was necessary to sort of "roll back the clock" to when the power balance wasn't so out of whack.

Maybe have pos rep and neg rep count for equal amounts.

Were any ideas like this considered? If so, why were they rejected?


I'm honestly pretty curious here.
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Old 2012-12-16, 20:13   Link #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Were any ideas like this considered? If so, why were they rejected?
It was decided that, instead of such an approach (there are various ways to adjust the math allowed within vBulletin, to be sure), we should take this opportunity to go for a time without rep and see how much it really helps foster or harm discussion, and what "gaps" become visible as a result of not having the feedback system rep provided.

So I wouldn't say they were rejected outright, but the approach of "take a break for now" was preferred.
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Old 2012-12-16, 21:13   Link #212
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Of the two major ideas floating around for a suggested replacement of the system, I favor sayde's & Vexx's suggestion of "neutral rep"/"simple thank you" message system, which I view as basically stripping the current system of points, dots, polarity and anonymity yet retain a way to say thanks/give short feedback that was tied to the post.

One thing I liked about the old system that could be salvaged for this is that the comments were tied to your post via a link. And those comments, along with the link and a time stamp were delivered to your control panel. The link was very useful to let me know immediately which post was it that generated the comment.

I'd prefer to call it just a plain Post Feedback system, since removing all points and polarity to make it neutral means erasing the "reputation" portion of the name. A description for a button/window for this system might read "Leave feedback for this post? Your name will be visible to the poster."

I also agree with the point raised that using the VM function just to say a one liner thanks would be overkill, since VMs were a general way to talk to a user publicly. It is agreed that one-liner thank you/+1/QFT messages would be nothing but clutter, but suggesting the use of the VM for that only means moving the clutter to someone's visitor page, which not everyone might like.

On private flame wars happening through this plain post feedback system, I say just let them happen. They are private, after all - it's none of our business. Worrying about it is like worrying about private flame wars that I'm sure already happen through PMs. Chances are, the flames will stay there since I'm not hearing anything about PM flame wars spilling out of control into the open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I was simply wondering if the rep software could be salvaged/rigged/crippled into a simple thank you system so that threads wouldn't be cluttered with "thank you" or "ditto" posts.

There would be no display of dots under the avatar, there would be no colors. In the User CP, there would be just a grey dot, the sender, and the comment field in the User CP. Syn mentioned this as well from other forums. Maybe even no comment field, just the sender's name.

The advantage to it is to reduce the noise clutter of a thread by giving people an off-channel way of just saying thanks.
Vexx's post almost perfectly described what this kind of system would look like. The only thing I didn't agree with is the possible loss of the comment field, since that would defeat the purpose of leaving feedback about a post.

--

On another note, since the reputation system is already retired and will never come back in its current form, is it possible to release the actual formula for giving and taking rep? I'll admit I have been curious more than once about the exact calculations involved in the points.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:04   Link #213
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Aww it's gone?

I must say it really helped me! My very first post in the signature requests thread was me being impatient and emotional. Got 3 neg reps for that and it certainly made me behave in the thread ever since
It's also nice to see a nice pos-rep every morning on your user cp ^^

Though I completely understand why the mods removed the system. It was flawed. Got a few useless neg reps myself too.
It was nice while it lasted....good bye.

EDIT:
It's also good that this now encourages members to just post or send a vm. I guess nothing is really lost. (except for the green boxes)
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:33   Link #214
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Oh, for me it's like the system was frivolous fun. I just liked seeing all the absurd comments people would give me. However, I do not think the system is beneficial to the forum by any stretch.

Basically, the system did not affect me personally, but I could see how it would affect others and that is why I support it being abolished.
Yeah, when I see somebody neg-repping me for being "feminist" or suggesting that BL isn't a blight upon anime that ruins any show it's even remotely associated with, I just laugh, but I imagine there are people who are discouraged from participating in conversations because of that.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:35   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
Vexx's post almost perfectly described what this kind of system would look like. The only thing I didn't agree with is the possible loss of the comment field, since that would defeat the purpose of leaving feedback about a post.
That's the same gripe I have. Especially since there's all kinds of brief statements one may want to make in response to a post--statements that aren't necessarily intended to express satisfaction or dissatisfaction to the post in question. Just off the top of my head, I'm sure quick comments could also be an effective means to provide answers to the types of posts that pose questions or suggestions that may only warrant an extremely brief response for some people.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:51   Link #216
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What about a 'thanking' or 'liking' system? I enjoyed being able to give (and receive) simple and positive feedback for a post. Limit the thanking/liking to X number of times per day or something to prevent abuse and we might be able to retain the benefits of the classic rep system.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:38   Link #217
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I think the ability to stay anonymous was the biggest problem. Exploitations of any system are bound to exist. So if eliminating all systems turns out fine, I'm fine with that.

I think I might even like no system the best. You actually learn to know other users by interacting with them (a method I'm all too familiar with on other forums). The biggest difference I see with this forum is that it's the most populated. But how do you judge new people you meet in life? You can ask around but ultimately you make a judgement for yourself, you don't look at the floating green bars next to their face.

So in that case I guess the biggest 'problem' is thanking people for particularly useful posts without 100 users spamming "Thanks, that's awesome!" in posts. Actual troublemakers are taken care of using the report button.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:42   Link #218
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
You can ask around but ultimately you make a judgement for yourself, you don't look at the floating green bars next to their face.
We need to make an augmented reality smartphone app that does this just as a joke. (Or wait for Google Glasses...)
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:44   Link #219
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Originally Posted by Godlike1889 View Post
Aww it's gone?

I must say it really helped me! My very first post in the signature requests thread was me being impatient and emotional. Got 3 neg reps for that and it certainly made me behave in the thread ever since
It's also nice to see a nice pos-rep every morning on your user cp ^^

Though I completely understand why the mods removed the system. It was flawed. Got a few useless neg reps myself too.
It was nice while it lasted....good bye.
That makes me remember, very first - rep is at the Saimoe 2007 thread. It's because I had a gloating attitude when a character that I liked won. Behaved more after that. But I guess emotions ran high at that time, because received 3 or 4 more drive by - rep in that thread before the saimoe year was over. One of them is because I voted for Rika Furude. It's just fun memories now when I look back on those times.

Quote:
EDIT:
It's also good that this now encourages members to just post or send a vm. I guess nothing is really lost. (except for the green boxes)
Yeah. I guess one benefit would be a little more social interaction among forum members.

It came as a shock at first, because it seems surreal that the rep system would be gone for good after so many years. Thinking again, realized that one reason I wanted it to stay is because I have the habit of telling real life friends about "having a decent reputation there in Animesuki" - but at present, my current real life anime friends are on facebook, and don't understand the meaning of those green bars of reputation here. After some serious pondering.. I guess, there really no more reason for me to feel bad that the rep system will be gone. ",)

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-12-17 at 08:28.
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Old 2012-12-17, 01:47   Link #220
monster
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I'm sure quick comments could also be an effective means to provide answers to the types of posts that pose questions or suggestions that may only warrant an extremely brief response for some people.
That doesn't make any sense to me. If a question was asked in a thread, the answer should go in the same thread, no matter how brief.
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