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Old 2012-12-16, 02:08   Link #1021
Wild Goose
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Firstly, it's Koko.

Secondly, even if the world's armies attempt to mobilize against Koko, to do so they will need mobilisation irders, op orgers, FRAGOs, logistics support requests. How ate these going to be transmitted by? Computer, using military networks. Who has a quantum computer that can access these networks and tamper with these orders?

That's right, Koko.

Tl;dr, nobody can move against Koko because when they order their armies to move, Koko uses Jormungand to rewrite the orders. In the short term, she's untouchable.
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Old 2012-12-16, 08:04   Link #1022
Anh_Minh
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In the long term (a few weeks) they can get a few hundred people to South Africa.

No, scratch that. In the long term (a few days, or maybe a few hours) they can make a deal with the armed forces that are already there and kill Koko and her, what, nine bodyguards?

She isn't on the moon. You don't need thousands of people with rare equipment. So, while unusual, the logistics problems are far from unsurmountable.

Unless Jormungand's on a ship in the middle of nowhere. With satellites working against them, they'd never find it.
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Old 2012-12-16, 08:33   Link #1023
CrazyPerson
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Guys, there's no solid confirmation that her Q-comp is in South Africa. It's only the CIA that even has a remote guess that it's there. No one is going to deploy forces or nukes against her there if they can't even confirm it's there. They're more likely guessing it's with all the satellites launched for Hek-GG.

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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
If all of Russia's satellite went dead or they lost control you think they won't assume it is not an attack by the US and vice versa

Also what to you mean no one can move troops?
There is a reason why submarines and carriers are nuclear powered
and sailors still need to learn how to navigate using a compass and the stars
She's not disabling all the satellites. She's probably going to mis-direct them on such. She can probably inform the governments about her plan too, it's doubtful she wouldn't have thought about accidentally triggering the end of the world.

They'd have to send the orders to move the troops. By intercepting communications, she'd force and deployed forces at sea to navigate to a port first then somehow communicate back home. No way anyone can deploy against her for weeks.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Except it was possible to make ICBM's before interconnected computer networks. all you need to guide a ICBM is gyroscopes. There's no way to hack something like that. So I don't really think Yoko's plan isn't really any kind of long term solution to anything really...certainly not enough to justify killing 700 thousand people for starters.
That doesn't make it impossible to fight wars. It just means that armies have to adapt...and lets be honest. EVERYONE is going to adapt if Yoko goes and kills 700k people with her super weapon.
That 700k is the initial startup cost, not a repeatable use death ray. If she could 700k every day they might. Again with the ICBM, they don't know the exact location of the main computer. No country is going to nuke without knowing. They only suspect it's in S. Africa and they don't know if there are duplicates elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Firstly, it's Koko.

Secondly, even if the world's armies attempt to mobilize against Koko, to do so they will need mobilisation irders, op orgers, FRAGOs, logistics support requests. How ate these going to be transmitted by? Computer, using military networks. Who has a quantum computer that can access these networks and tamper with these orders?

That's right, Koko.

Tl;dr, nobody can move against Koko because when they order their armies to move, Koko uses Jormungand to rewrite the orders. In the short term, she's untouchable.
Exactly. And if they move against her, it will be with World War One era tech. She can probably deploy her company warehouse of Predator Drones and Patriot Missiles against that. And all the logistics she denies the enemy countries? She can use that for any PMC she wants to hire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In the long term (a few weeks) they can get a few hundred people to South Africa.

No, scratch that. In the long term (a few days, or maybe a few hours) they can make a deal with the armed forces that are already there and kill Koko and her, what, nine bodyguards?

She isn't on the moon. You don't need thousands of people with rare equipment. So, while unusual, the logistics problems are far from unsurmountable.

Unless Jormungand's on a ship in the middle of nowhere. With satellites working against them, they'd never find it.
Not if she intercepts any communications to S. Africa forces in the area. They would never know. She can probably deploy her company warehouse of Predator drones against any local forces that somehow might get wind. This will give her several weeks at least.

That's assuming they can confirm the computer is in South Africa.
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Old 2012-12-16, 08:33   Link #1024
Dop
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But what about the good old M.A.D. doctrine? Mutually Assured Destruction.

Koko's perfectly OK with killing three quarters of a million people in flight. If country X launches an attack on her, you think she'll have qualms about reducing their capital city into a pile of rubble? Just for starters?

It's also possible that the satellites are part of a distributed computer system, so to take down Jormungand would involve downing a large number of satellites.

There's a lot more to the plan than just downing all airborne vessels, I think.
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Old 2012-12-16, 08:59   Link #1025
Anh_Minh
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Whether the computer's in South Africa or not, she is, and so is her factory.

The South African army has more than 30000 people in it, and they don't have a long way to go. They'll be just as out for blood as the rest of the world.

As for fear of retaliation... What's she gonna do? Ground every plane, twice?
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Old 2012-12-16, 09:26   Link #1026
CrazyPerson
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Think of it like a country with: is it worth it to mobilize what little active forces you have against a hard to reach target, with no guarantee that it's actually your target? And Koko can move. She's not stuck in SA. Her flight/naval assets are fully operational.

Okay, assume they confirm it's the factory and 30,000 SA army peeps got down there, assume the orders to hire the SA army get through, and assume the order from the SA commanders to their troops don't get intercepted and redirected, then Koko deploys her predator drones and bombs the army to pieces. She certainly has them 'cause if she can deploy a drone on unfriendly territory near Cuba, she can deploy on home ground. Let's also assume she doesn't hire a personal PMC, of which there are probably plent of in SA, to help fight too.

Retaliation? That's a nice stock market you have there. It would be a shame if it suddenly got wiped. Electronic hospital records? It says little Susie Evans is a 87 year old man with incontinence and no penicillin alergy. Production Factories? How come my Ohio GM production line isn't making cars, but dancing around to the tune of Portal 2's "Exile Vilify?" Personal computers? Senator Lamar Smith and all his staff's work and home computers have all suddenly been bricked. That's probably sufficiently threatening if you target the right people or a good amount of people.
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Old 2012-12-16, 10:30   Link #1027
Fawx9
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So uhh, did she not realize that we had two world wars with aircraft that had next to no 'computers' that could be hacked?

Unless she has stockpiled a huge amount of drones, like decades worth, I don't see how it's feasible to maintain the no air travel rules.

I guess should could bomb manufacturing plants, but that would completely destroy infrastructure which would go against the whole keeping the world as it is (the one Jonah mentioned he loved).
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Old 2012-12-16, 10:49   Link #1028
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Think of it like a country with: is it worth it to mobilize what little active forces you have against a hard to reach target, with no guarantee that it's actually your target? And Koko can move. She's not stuck in SA. Her flight/naval assets are fully operational.
But her factory is immobile. And how hard of a target can it be? She's only got a few people.

And against someone who just killed 700000 people and threatens the world with more to come? Yes, it's worth it. No sacrifice is too great, unless you're the one getting sacrificed. (Meaning SA wouldn't nuke itself even if it was a nuclear power, but for every other country that option would totally be on the table.)

Quote:
Okay, assume they confirm it's the factory and 30,000 SA army peeps got down there,
You don't need all 30000.

Quote:
assume the orders to hire the SA army get through,
Yes, assume a general can drive to a base and yell "Assemble! March!". That's really not as difficult as you paint it.

Quote:
and assume the order from the SA commanders to their troops don't get intercepted and redirected, then Koko deploys her predator drones and bombs the army to pieces. She certainly has them 'cause if she can deploy a drone on unfriendly territory near Cuba, she can deploy on home ground.
A few dozen predators, even if she's got them, aren't going to save her.

Quote:
Let's also assume she doesn't hire a personal PMC, of which there are probably plent of in SA, to help fight too.
Right now, she can't trust Jonah not to shoot her. What makes you think she can trust a random PMC?

For that matter, how is she going to pay them? Just her threat effectively destroyed our banking system.

Quote:
Retaliation? That's a nice stock market you have there. It would be a shame if it suddenly got wiped. Electronic hospital records? It says little Susie Evans is a 87 year old man with incontinence and no penicillin alergy. Production Factories? How come my Ohio GM production line isn't making cars, but dancing around to the tune of Portal 2's "Exile Vilify?" Personal computers? Senator Lamar Smith and all his staff's work and home computers have all suddenly been bricked. That's probably sufficiently threatening if you target the right people or a good amount of people.
But see, here's the problem: if you take hostages, and start shooting a few, you lose almost all your leverage and most likely get a full assault. It doesn't matter if 90% of your hostages are still alive - that's the point where the police goes all in.

Killing 700000 people and threatening the rest of the world with more? It just means she has to do down as fast as possible. Worry about picking up the pieces of her rampage once she's dead and her computer destroyed or seized.

And worst case scenario: people learn to do without open electronic networks. It'll suck, but that's how we've done for most of our history. What they won't do is give up on killing Koko and taking back... well, late 20th and early 21st century technology. That's what this is about.
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Old 2012-12-16, 10:55   Link #1029
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
In the short term, she's untouchable.
Jonah has something to say about that.
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Old 2012-12-16, 11:11   Link #1030
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Jonah, why u upset? it will ONLY kill 700,000... actually if the planes drop, the casualty could be over millions

could that be their goodbye kiss?
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:09   Link #1031
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That doesn't make it impossible to fight wars. It just means that armies have to adapt...and lets be honest. EVERYONE is going to adapt if Yoko goes and kills 700k people with her super weapon.
Not necessarily, it seems like Koko is counting on the fact that it is too difficult or nearly impossible for current armies to transit back to the old way because of time and costs. In addition, there is strong ties between armed dealers and armies around the world. For arm dealers to transit away from the modern era sounds like they are going to lose much of their money. I think the episode 20 with Curry was to emphasize the fact that it is already difficult for some to sell weapons. So arm dealers not wishing to lose money, they will try to push armies to maintain the status quo, even though Koko has total control of modern weapons.
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Old 2012-12-17, 00:34   Link #1032
creb
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As entertaining as it is to speculate on the feasibility of Koko's plan (personally, I think it's completely unfeasible and in RL she'd be dead within a week, or so on the run she may as well be, but I digress), I'm fairly sure at this juncture that the details don't matter and what does is whether or not Jonah proves to be the healing tonic Koko's shattered psyche needs to return to becoming a functional member of society.

The easy answer is yes, he'll bring her back over the edge of insanity, but I really hope they don't go for the easy answer. I wouldn't bet on it, but I do hope.

We've presumably got two more episodes left, and while the short preview didn't really give much away that couldn't be taken wildly out of context, I'm going to guess that it's mostly the world reacting to Koko's plan, prior to the final episode which will actually get around to making the decision on whether Koko's "conscience" ala Jonah wins out, or all the pent up pain and rage she's accumulated over the years living the twisted life she has.

On another note, if Koko is ready to implement her plan already, what was the point of springing the chic from the Americans?

Or is there a third season coming up and I'm totally wrong in the assumption that this plot is going to have to be wrapped up in two more episodes? :/

It could certainly go on and on, as it's obvious she's pulled the rug out from under her own family as well, and we haven't even met the father, who's probably the source of all sorts of therapy-requiring issues in both his children.
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Old 2012-12-17, 06:39   Link #1033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But her factory is immobile. And how hard of a target can it be? She's only got a few people.

And against someone who just killed 700000 people and threatens the world with more to come? Yes, it's worth it. No sacrifice is too great, unless you're the one getting sacrificed. (Meaning SA wouldn't nuke itself even if it was a nuclear power, but for every other country that option would totally be on the table.)
You keep ignoring the fact that it isn't publicly known that the factory is the must hit target. All your other points on a strike on her fails after that. But I'll humour you and keep going.

That 700k is a one-time thing from the plane crashes. After that, nobody flies and no more body count from her unless you're dumb enough to fly on compromised networks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You don't need all 30000.
The less attacking her, the more likely she'll hold with advanced weaponry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, assume a general can drive to a base and yell "Assemble! March!". That's really not as difficult as you paint it.
The difficulty is for your general to even know that the SA factory needs to be hit. She's going to be as sure as hell to make sure no forces of any size even HEARS that the factory needs hitting. Only the CIA even has a remote guess that it's the factory. That's also ignoring the fact she can bribe them too, the country, that is.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A few dozen predators, even if she's got them, aren't going to save her.
She supplies countries with predators. She's going to have more than a few dozen. And all the predators have to do is take out any C&C and the army is routed. That's also not to mention bombers that she has at her disposal. After R, you saw how she dealt with Hex.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Right now, she can't trust Jonah not to shoot her. What makes you think she can trust a random PMC?
She doesn't have to let to PMC into her plan. All she needs to do is pay them, send them to an area probably farther away from the factory and say "hold the line, you'll have air support." That or bribe the SA army.

As for Jonah, well that's a storyline thing. While Koko has trusted him explicitly, she knew, he knew, and we all knew he wasn't that loyal to her and that he has his own conscience. She chose to expose herself that way for her own reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
For that matter, how is she going to pay them? Just her threat effectively destroyed our banking system.
Suppose she is destroying the banking system, she's in the perfect position to make a new world order. PMC's will want to cozy up to that. But that isn't the point, she isn't going to destroy the banking system, just selectively halt comms she doesn't like and traffic she doesn't want.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But see, here's the problem: if you take hostages, and start shooting a few, you lose almost all your leverage and most likely get a full assault. It doesn't matter if 90% of your hostages are still alive - that's the point where the police goes all in.
Consider the first 10% as the guards a bank robber shoots before gaining complete control of the bank. The police will still want to negotiate for the 90% as long as the robbers aren't shooting after control is gained.

You're thinking too small of a scale. Both Russia and the USA had each other's countries hostage for ages with nuclear arms. MAD doctrine ensured that neither struck. They nuke her, and while the nukes are in-bound, she wipes them out. So just like the cold war, neither will want to strike. I bet that if she wipes them pre-emptively, they'll launch a few weeks later if they're feeling bold; that preserves the MAD aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Killing 700000 people and threatening the rest of the world with more? It just means she has to do down as fast as possible. Worry about picking up the pieces of her rampage once she's dead and her computer destroyed or seized.
Where does it say she's threatening more after the 700k? You stay out of the air and she can't actively kill you. No country is going to think 700k worth the end of the world. And Jormungand guarantees no fast response, nuclear or otherwise. She's also not rampaging to kill people on a daily basis, don't know where you're getting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And worst case scenario: people learn to do without open electronic networks. It'll suck, but that's how we've done for most of our history. What they won't do is give up on killing Koko and taking back... well, late 20th and early 21st century technology. That's what this is about.
This part I agree with. Each country will want to get sovereign control back. But if she plays right, whether or not they can do so is another matter. Jormungand going mobile and hidden will ensure they're stuck with closed wired networks or short range radio (anything long range and wireless will probably get intercepted). Early 21st century tech is a huge barrier to raging long-distance conflicts. Body counts would definitely get reduced... which is her goal.
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Old 2012-12-17, 16:25   Link #1034
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
You keep ignoring the fact that it isn't publicly known that the factory is the must hit target. All your other points on a strike on her fails after that. But I'll humour you and keep going.
People in the know are right there in SA. Her shit's going to slow the information down, sure, but it'll get there.

Quote:
That 700k is a one-time thing from the plane crashes. After that, nobody flies and no more body count from her unless you're dumb enough to fly on compromised networks.
Except as a result of the chaos she caused.


Quote:
The less attacking her, the more likely she'll hold with advanced weaponry.
They need enough to kill 10 people with advanced equipment. (And how many drone operators among them?)


Quote:
The difficulty is for your general to even know that the SA factory needs to be hit.
Yes, it is.

Quote:
She's going to be as sure as hell to make sure no forces of any size even HEARS that the factory needs hitting.
So it'll take a few days instead of a few hours.

Quote:
Only the CIA even has a remote guess that it's the factory. That's also ignoring the fact she can bribe them too, the country, that is.
Bribe them with what? What bribe's big enough to accept being carpet bombed with nukes? Especially when she just made the concept of money itself pretty shaky...


Quote:
She supplies countries with predators.
Her employer does.

Quote:
She's going to have more than a few dozen.
Does she? Those drones would have to be made, she'd have to have them on hand, and she'd need operators for them.

Quote:
And all the predators have to do is take out any C&C and the army is routed.
Fuck C&C. Charge and kill everything that moves. It's a suboptimal tactic, but throw enough people at it and it'll work. She kills 700000 people in an instant and people will be ready to make plenty of sacrifices to take her down.

Quote:
That's also not to mention bombers that she has at her disposal. After R, you saw how she dealt with Hex.
Logistics problems aside (the logistics of the bombers, I mean), those bombers can be taken down by planes with electronics that won't take commands from outside the plane. Or AA guns.


Quote:
She doesn't have to let to PMC into her plan. All she needs to do is pay them, send them to an area probably farther away from the factory and say "hold the line, you'll have air support." That or bribe the SA army.
She tells them that, and they can't figure out she's the one threatening the world?

Quote:
As for Jonah, well that's a storyline thing. While Koko has trusted him explicitly, she knew, he knew, and we all knew he wasn't that loyal to her and that he has his own conscience. She chose to expose herself that way for her own reasons.



Suppose she is destroying the banking system, she's in the perfect position to make a new world order. PMC's will want to cozy up to that. But that isn't the point, she isn't going to destroy the banking system, just selectively halt comms she doesn't like and traffic she doesn't want.
Our banking systems - our economies - are built on trust. She demonstrates that the worlds' computers can be brought down by the push of a button, that the button is in the hands of a madwoman, and that trust is gone. Not even Koko can rebuild it. She could drop dead three minutes after pulling the trigger and making her ultimatum, and it wouldn't matter: rebuilding the world will be a bitch, and it'll take a long time.


Quote:
Consider the first 10% as the guards a bank robber shoots before gaining complete control of the bank.
Except they're not guards. They're civilians. And the robber's just showed herself to be a mass murdering crazy woman.

Quote:
The police will still want to negotiate for the 90% as long as the robbers aren't shooting after control is gained.

You're thinking too small of a scale. Both Russia and the USA had each other's countries hostage for ages with nuclear arms. MAD doctrine ensured that neither struck. They nuke her, and while the nukes are in-bound, she wipes them out. So just like the cold war, neither will want to strike. I bet that if she wipes them pre-emptively, they'll launch a few weeks later if they're feeling bold; that preserves the MAD aspect.
Except as far as they're concerned, she'll have already launched. Why, then, not also pull the trigger?


Quote:
Where does it say she's threatening more after the 700k?
You do, actually. You keep arguing that she'll do terrible things if people cross her. And remember, to her, those 700000 dead are just a show of force. A prologue to her telling the world how it's going to be.

Quote:
You stay out of the air and she can't actively kill you.
As you've justly pointed out, there is so, so much more she can do to people.

And as I've explained, her very existence means the world is stuck in a bad place. Just keeping breathing isn't the worst thing she can do to the world, but it's close enough that the difference won't matter.

Quote:
No country is going to think 700k worth the end of the world.
You think they'll surrender. I think there'll be plenty who, in panic or in rage, will strike at her.

More than that, you think the world can pretty much keep existing while she has that sword of Damocles above the world. I think the only way forward is over her dead body.

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And Jormungand guarantees no fast response, nuclear or otherwise. She's also not rampaging to kill people on a daily basis, don't know where you're getting this.
Her opening shot's several lifetimes' worth of rampage. The ensuing chaos will be worse. And, to make the chances she wants, she'll be threatening the world with more. She said as much - the planes is just a beginning. Part of her plan, which makes it, somehow, even worse than if she'd done for shit and giggles, as a one day prank.


Quote:
This part I agree with. Each country will want to get sovereign control back. But if she plays right, whether or not they can do so is another matter. Jormungand going mobile and hidden will ensure they're stuck with closed wired networks or short range radio (anything long range and wireless will probably get intercepted). Early 21st century tech is a huge barrier to raging long-distance conflicts. Body counts would definitely get reduced... which is her goal.
And the world will have nothing better to do than learning to cope, and hunt her down.

BTW, it's not like even a quantum computer can't break the One Time Pad, or gain access to a physically closed network, so it's not like they'll be completely disarmed.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:53   Link #1035
lordblazer
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hmmm. to be honest they haven't subbed it yet and its going on thursday now.
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Old 2012-12-20, 13:57   Link #1036
ars89
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Spoiler for ep 11:
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:12   Link #1037
lordblazer
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Not necessarily, it seems like Koko is counting on the fact that it is too difficult or nearly impossible for current armies to transit back to the old way because of time and costs. In addition, there is strong ties between armed dealers and armies around the world. For arm dealers to transit away from the modern era sounds like they are going to lose much of their money. I think the episode 20 with Curry was to emphasize the fact that it is already difficult for some to sell weapons. So arm dealers not wishing to lose money, they will try to push armies to maintain the status quo, even though Koko has total control of modern weapons.
Yea, the military industrial complex today is very complicated. On top of that sea trading lanes take weeks to transit and most trade is done by air. If things go back to the old way with the current population and level of trade. I can only imagine the nightmare. I mean traffic jams on the seas? they would have to expand more of the lanes for trade, etc etc.


overall, i loved this episode. and OMG I'm soo attracted to Koko right now.. Jonah!!! is too lucky!!! But women like Koko are my type I guess.
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Old 2012-12-20, 23:30   Link #1038
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ep.11 perfect order

so koko even more why she doing this plan cause of dislike of war, killing, etc want to change it all give doing for the reasons it cause johan to swim away from koko.

yet after swim here kasper little talk with johan with more wonder to asking for answer so johan hang around with kasper.

& koko let show here plan having bookman witness it all being like a test subject that koko's plan is about having bookman meet rebel then rescue by marines & seeing it happen so amaze indeed bookman is also a koko's person.

1ep left to see how it all plan.
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Old 2012-12-22, 03:20   Link #1039
creb
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Looks like Koko cuts her hair for the next episode. I liked it long.

I wonder if Lehm works for Koko, or works for her father (and similarly, Chiquita in regards to Koko's brother).

Because, if I had one more episode left and was in charge of this story, I'd end it with Jonah deciding Koko is right, going back to her, Koko smiling and putting her plan into full gear, and then Lehm quietly shooting Koko. He then lights a cigarette, we get flash-reaction face shots from everybody, and credits. Last few seconds after the credits roll, still shot of Koko's father in his lair of evil, muttering something about a foolish girl.
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Old 2012-12-22, 05:27   Link #1040
Yu Ominae
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Well Lehm did first work for Floyd before being assigned to Koko.
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