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Old 2012-12-16, 19:12   Link #6661
Sansker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Some criticism is fine, but you can't really judge a book by the cover and the first few chapters. At least wait until you get through it before going, "Waaaah! The series isn't explaining everything in the first 30% of the story!"
You are right of course. But has been over 3 years and 25 chapters. And there isn’t still some idea where this is going. So I am not in all that “will be explain later” or “give it time” at this point. But yes, it can be all just doom if is not complete, that is why I keep reading it after all, but so far I am not impress and that is my main problem. If after a 30% of the series, as you say, you fail to make yourself coherent or at least interesting, changes are you are not going to progress. But maybe I am wrong, I will be glad if I am wrong since I am a fan of the series. So I hope you are right and is all explain later.

And also the Book of the Silver Cross is something more than that. You see if the good guys could get their hands on the Book of Darkness before the Wolkenritter could finish it, what would happen to A’s? It will happen something: The Wolkenritter attacking the Artha or even killing to get it back, Graham doing something odd or more drastic, etc. but it will made up for something: in Force the Silver Cross does nothing at all and it seems like nobody even care for it anymore. Is like “The Silver what? Who needs that crap? The AEC weapons, now that is some neat stuff right there, lets go” Is just odd, and doesn’t seem to make sense. Is like Sauron getting the Ring on LOTR and doing nothing with it. Is like the Relics on StrikerS, with time they become pointless and have not use, even when at the beginning they were a real trouble. Just saying, seems like it will be the same case here.

How the investigation is flawed? Allow me to share who I think it is. First, how did they know the Hückebein family was involve? They were already looking for them: how? Why? Never explain. But that is ok, kind of, so what about the rest. First they get to Ruwella and find the remains of the lab and accuse Thoma of being a thief and, I presume, didn’t bother talking with the scientist there since they didn’t get a clue on Vandin, so how they proceed with those guys? Just there I don’t get anything since is never explain. Later we see them doing nothing ultil they catch Thoma as the Hückebein attack Vandin, they go there to investigate find a lot of proofs that they were experimenting with Eclipse and living peoples as well as proof that the Hückebein attack them and the Hardis is lying and yet they wait 3 months to act, when time is running short and they want to stop the criminals. But there a lot of plot convenience things that we never see that hold them back to the point they are just talking, 3 months later, that Hardis was hiding something. When in the past this has never being an issue, that is what I call “pretending”, acting like there is some mystery or tricks when there is none.

We all see it coming Hardis was evil, he say it himself so watching the heroes catch up what is plan and obvious doesn’t make them bright if you ask me. They never show what kind of investigation they are doing and we spend time after time with the rookies, that is true, but then I wonder if they aren’t even trying. Because is really easy. I mean they all seem to be in the case of what is going on and yet they do nothing about it, because the manga will be over in like 2 seconds.

In the end yes, we need to wait but I am just saying what it looks to me like doesn’t make sense and I will want an explanation. If it’s going to be one, good, but until it is I will sit and say what I think is nor right. Just that, expressing my opinion.
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Old 2012-12-16, 20:34   Link #6662
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And Nanoha in general is an idealistic universe, so pink beams of friendship will eventually make everything mostly okay.
That's why i was calling on FORCE for being a pretentiously dark series. During the first half most of the idelistic concepts of the Nanoha canon were defied if not outright subverted with the introduction of the Huckebein family and all the consequences carried by their appearance as also Tohma's actions. The new rules of the setting disabled Nanoha's pink beams of freindship and replaced them with blue blasts of destruction (true destruction this time). The new villains are too much for the heroes to handle without using lethal force (Signum got trounced among other thing for being a softie who forgot how to fight a death battle ...and later she only managed to force a draw due the her insistance on capturing Cypha alive, altough that was not that bad of a thing thinking about it, i could gave a Cypha a good excuse to stop holding back and things could go really bad for Sig-chan). And to top it all off most of the plot is driven by Curren and Hardis talking about stuff only they know with Section Six left in the dust scratching their heads about what to do for most of the manga.

For a moment things looked very different than in previous seasons (Original Season was mainly about Nanoha befriending a beautful girl, heck, in the Movie 1st manga Nanoha's intervention wasn't even key to solve Precia's case the bureau did it all without much trouble xDU). 2nd season had sme tension but nowhere as much. We've got glimpses of the Wolkenritter's niceness right from the start and their treat of the heroes wasn't nearly as evilish, the Masked guys were the ones who posed the most mistery and threat during the season. Even in StrikerS where the stakes and damage were more "realistic" it was more or less stated the numbers are considerably weaker than the main cast powerwise, hence their overreliance in teamwork, deceiving tactics and batallions of Gadget Drones equiped with AMF tech aiding them in battle.

In FORCE we knew right from the start that the villains are awfully stronger than the heroes, that they aren't nice people at all (affably evil at best), that the cool powers trained and developed by our heroes for years are now useless and that their new weapons are actually weaker than their old ones (again not making this up, Vita herself gave us plenty of exposition about how dire their situation is for being forced to rely on AEC-Equipement). The odds were really bad and the implication of our heroes being forced to finally draw blood on the battlefield was greater than ever, adn then ...nothing happened. The highlight of the bloodshed was Signum being slaughtered then all the carnage got toned down to the point of being the same as before ...only lamer.

At least i'm getting a few laughs with the Grendels and i'm waiting for something interesting to happen with them ...or for something interesting to happen at all xDU The main plot started to run in circles for about 6 chapters and as i said i'm waiting to see what the heck Curren is planning. Sansker is right about plot keys being constantly thrown then forgotten so i hope this is not the case here, Curren is supossedly going after something big and Hardis is supposedly confident about having his plans running smoothly so i hope things get finally explained soon.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:57   Link #6663
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One thing to keep in mind, and this is something that has been stated over and over: Force is a once a month manga. Yes, 3+ years is an incredibly long time for how much we've gotten, and it makes it seem like the story is dragging. I think it sucks, too. I'd prefer a once a week manga, but we get what we get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And also the Book of the Silver Cross is something more than that. You see if the good guys could get their hands on the Book of Darkness before the Wolkenritter could finish it, what would happen to A’s? It will happen something: The Wolkenritter attacking the Artha or even killing to get it back, Graham doing something odd or more drastic, etc. but it will made up for something: in Force the Silver Cross does nothing at all and it seems like nobody even care for it anymore. Is like “The Silver what? Who needs that crap?
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about here. The good guys don't need the book of the silver cross, per se, because they have no desire to create more eclipse infectees. Their main concern is shutting it down as a threat and to prevent bad guys from using it.

Quote:
The AEC weapons, now that is some neat stuff right there, lets go” Is just odd, and doesn’t seem to make sense. Is like Sauron getting the Ring on LOTR and doing nothing with it. Is like the Relics on StrikerS, with time they become pointless and have not use, even when at the beginning they were a real trouble. Just saying, seems like it will be the same case here.
I'll agree about the relics seemingly being pointless... we never really get why Jail is gathering them, and other then the one they put into Vivio, you don't really see them used. We do know that they were created to be fused with a linker core, and thus make an individual stronger (and Zest and Lutecia were said to be relic weapon experiments, so they probably had some that were removed off screen).

AEC weapons, I'll also partially agree, but mainly because I don't particularly like most of them. I would have preferred they either stick with the original devices and just made upgrades to them. They do make some sense in that they are purposefully made to distribute to the standard rank-and-file as a means to convert magic into physical matter in order to battle anti-magic foes (even ignoring the Hucks, AMF weaponry is on the rise). Still, you can create physical matter with magic anyway, but perhaps the new weapons make it easier for C and D ranked mages.

Quote:
How the investigation is flawed? Allow me to share who I think it is. First, how did they know the Hückebein family was involve? They were already looking for them: how? Why? Never explain.
They've been investigating towns that were destroyed and wiped out, and there was even a scene where Teana was questioning some survivors, and discovered that the killers were wielding dividers that looked like the ones the Hucks had been using. Right now, technically, the Hucks are persons of interests, suspects, and that's why Hayate was investigating them. Hell, even Thoma thought Veyron looked like the guy who wiped out his own town.

So it is explained.

Quote:
But that is ok, kind of, so what about the rest. First they get to Ruwella and find the remains of the lab and accuse Thoma of being a thief and, I presume, didn’t bother talking with the scientist there since they didn’t get a clue on Vandin, so how they proceed with those guys? Just there I don’t get anything since is never explain.
Again, you're not being too clear here... who thinks Thoma is a thief? RF6 doesn't really, but they do want to get ahold of Thoma to find out the truth. Obviously, the bad guys running the lab think he is a thief. At that time, their primary mission was the recovery of Thoma. You can presume that the scientists doing bad stuff at the lab wouldn't have copped to it, so Thoma was their best lead at finding out what was going on.

Quote:
Later we see them doing nothing ultil they catch Thoma as the Hückebein attack Vandin, they go there to investigate find a lot of proofs that they were experimenting with Eclipse and living peoples as well as proof that the Hückebein attack them and the Hardis is lying and yet they wait 3 months to act, when time is running short and they want to stop the criminals. But there a lot of plot convenience things that we never see that hold them back to the point they are just talking, 3 months later, that Hardis was hiding something. When in the past this has never being an issue, that is what I call “pretending”, acting like there is some mystery or tricks when there is none.
It's fairly difficult to follow your thought process. Is English not your primary language? You may want to try talking things out a bit. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. The mysteries thus presented so far, are Vandin's motives. And they can't act directly against people with proof or at least reasonable suspicion. The latter was accomplished due to Teana's investigation that suggested the Hucks were behind the killing of a town. Their pursuit of Thoma would have hopefully netted them some proof.

The manga can't and won't show everything. Some things will just have to be presumed. You can presume they are investigating, just like Hayate had been doing in Strikers. It didn't show Hayate investigating the combat cyborg business, but she was behind the scenes, and that was revealed later when she confronted Auris. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Hell, part of your problem is that this is taking so long, and yet, if they were to show every small detail that you want them to, it would stretch this out even longer!

All I can say, and repeat, is just to be patient. When Force ends, then there will be time for criticism on what they did and didn't do, and what they should or shouldn't have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
That's why i was calling on FORCE for being a pretentiously dark series.
Whereas I don't call it dark at all, compared to many others out there. :P You should really watch "Here and There, Then and Now" and perhaps read "Haou Airen" and then see if you view of dark changes. And those are actually fairly light for dark series!

Quote:
During the first half most of the idelistic concepts of the Nanoha canon were defied if not outright subverted with the introduction of the Huckebein family and all the consequences carried by their appearance
Let me get this right... In A's, we have the Wolkenritter and the Book of Darkness, who have been responsible for death and destruction for at least 300 years or more... and that's somehow lighter than a small group of eclipse infectees who have possibly only been at this for *maybe* 10 years at most?

Because, from where I stand, it seems far more likely that there was considerably more death meted out by the Book of Darkness, then the Hucks could ever hope to match. And considering that we are pretty much expected to believe the Wolkenritter never showcased any real emotions (while the Hucks have) and thus were true emotionless killing machines, and a reasonable guess would conclude that some masters might have been far crueler than others, then we can also presume there was considerably torture going on as well.

Yet, because all of that happens off camera, we can dismiss it.

I'll admit, it's a strange facet of humanity, to automatically dismiss things that aren't directly shown in front of them. That's why we don't really think about the African children who are sold into slavery, worked the bone, raped, and then slaughtered wholesale, because we don't really see it. "Out of sight, out of mind" as the saying goes.

And yet, show a little blood, and suddenly it's "OMG! Tsuzuki is betraying the kind and gentle nature of the show with bad guys who are doing really bad things! This, like, NEVER happened before! They are actually SHOWING dead bodies and blood this time around! That, like, NEVER existed before!"

I'm using humor here, but seriously Aki, we ain't encountering any real new ground here. :P If anything, we're just being shown what has already been happening, so we can't pretend it never existed.
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Old 2012-12-17, 00:22   Link #6664
Sansker
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English is not my first language, you are right. But I think I am not that bad with it. Let me explain it.

What I mean is that for every action take by any group, something will have to change. And that is what doesn’t happen here. Yeah the good guys don’t want to rule the world or whatever but if they have a hold of the enemy most precious thing: why the bad guys aren’t even trying to take it back? Oh yeah, because there is a mystery when they will take it later… for no real reasons other than to create a mystery and pretend there is something going on. And even so why the good guys aren’t trying to see if they can study the Silver Cross to stop the Eclipse? they just let a 15 years old go around with the Lost Logia like is some kind of iPad. Even letting him go near other people when they don’t know if he can explode or do something, so I am assuming the thing isn’t important anymore because of how is being deal with.

Things that happen off screen is pointless. Because if it doesn’t get focus is for a reason and when you can use it as an explanation of what happen in the main plot is just lazy writing that didn’t knew how to fit all the parts. That is why I say is odd, because it feels like the author forget about it and they just bring it on later.

The investigation itself is very put aside. This creates the feeling of mystery, right? So why is all the investigation show rather like off camera? I mean how is that the TSAB knows they are call Hückebein but doesn’t seem to know who are their members? Did they just went in to every single town and proclaim: “We are the Hückebein” kind of like Jail being so kind to put his name on the drones so Fate could find it? I mean that things are solve rather fast or being present with troubles to fit the plot. That is what is call “plot convenience”

And yes, they did call Thoma a thief. You see the investigation itself is so odd to me I need to explain it point by point, but that will take it too long. I was writing the other post rather fast, so I let a lot out. I mean they do know the Hückebein were the ones attacking the villages thanks to Teana, but we later learn that were the fake Hückebein because we see Arnage and Veyron stopping the fake Hückebein when they do just that and even show some feeling over the fact they just kill a lot of people when until that point they didn’t even care. So were the fake Hückebein just going around saying they were the originals? If that is the case, why? To lead the TSAB to the Hückebein and not to the fake ones? But if they are all Eclipse Drivers why they will want to make the TSAB hear about the Eclipse in the first place? But ok, they might want them to eliminate the Hückebein for them so why isn’t Vandin actually helping the TSAB and is the other company doing the job? Fine maybe explain later.

But on the TSAB side: they did found the lab on Ruwella where Thoma take the Silver Cross while there were on another planet blowing something up and revealing they didn’t find the Silver Cross there. So how did they get to know about the Silver Cross on the first place? If they were already chasing the labs on other planets how is that they don’t have anything on Vandin up until that point when it’s clear there is an organization behind it. I mean the tech, the people… I can’t buy none of them talk or at some point Hayate didn’t just call Verossa to read their minds for a few seconds. So they didn’t make a connection between the Hückebein and the guys making Eclipse Drivers? If they realize there were two different teams then why they never try to track down anything back to the source and we didn’t even get to see what happen to the people on the lab ever again.

Later when we find out that Vandin is behind it all they say there is something suspicions about Hardis when they discover: that his company was experimenting with a deathly virus without telling anybody, creating copies of deadly weapons, experimenting on living human beings and lying on the face to their investigators when they ask who attack them… I will say that is more than enough to put you in jail, but here we need to wait so the 3 guys who we just pick up train and join the SD6 either they want to or not. I mean… is this the mystery? That Hardis was bad? It was obvious. And why is he doing this? Well that is the mystery because his actions don’t make any sense at all. He let the TSAB put him on jail, he let the Grendels fool him and he betray the Hückebein… I do hope we get something out of it.
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Old 2012-12-17, 01:46   Link #6665
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Things that happen off screen is pointless. Because if it doesn’t get focus is for a reason and when you can use it as an explanation of what happen in the main plot is just lazy writing that didn’t knew how to fit all the parts. That is why I say is odd, because it feels like the author forget about it and they just bring it on later.
I was about to unleash anothr wall of text but that paragraph sumarizes almost everything i wanted to say. We work with what we've got, sure it's implied the Wolks could have possibly killed tons of people but we never got anything precise or even remotely graphic on the matter, we know the're guardian knights with some fight experiencewho have fought for large periods of time. Not that it was of much help against the Hucks who are pretty much canon confirmed to be far stronger, powerful and overall effective fighters than the Wolkenritter ever was, their body count may not be as big as the Wolks but at least said count's existence is comfirmed as also the threat they posse by being capable to treat powerful mages like garbage (the Wolks possed a threat by beating up 9-year old girls xDU).

Sure, i don't expect to receive every piece of specific detail of a plot, that would be nearly impossible, not to mention the boring lenghts of exposition (a thing that set me apart from Super Robot Wars anime series, the robot fights are cool but the speeches and political exposition is pretty long and booooring -_-). But you can show progres in a dynamic way, A's has very good dynamic, after Nanoha and Fate got beaten we've got to see the Wolk's lives and reasons to fight, then we switched back to the TSAB working and discussing notorious progress on the investigation around the Wolks, then switched back and forth between the two groups doing and saying important and character building stuff with pretty cool confrontations thrown in the middle of such developement (without being forced on the plot as the confrontation between the opponents also add to their developement ...take Signum's fights with Cypha and look back to her fights with Fate and i dare you to tell me Cypha's fights are better and added more to the developement of the participants). StrikerS felt really slow on this department, they tried to expose the life on RF6 so the audience get a grasp of the new dynamics, and that's ok, it's an important task to update returning viewers abvout changes in the setting, it was nice for a couple of chapters but then it was dragged veeery long and became boring as a result, the ocassional fights against Gadget Drones added very little as well.

FORCE is suffering from the same, it's dragging things far longer than necessary, ok the Hucks are really mean and strong we've got it, fine! Tohma feels sad is being pressed by his inner anger so please move on, got it! possesed tohma is so powerfull not even Nanoha is a match for him ...can we please continue? ...oh boy a family reunion filled with all new member of the Hucks? Cool! i can wait for ...uh? it'll take another two years for that event to happen? oh well, nevermind.

The writing stopped being the main problem for me long ago (guess i can't stay so angry and hurtful for more than two and a half years ...so ok, Signum is just another average joe fighter of the bunch, i got it xDU). Things i want to see are happening in the plot and characters that appeal to me are now appearing (Carter "Idiot Boss" Grendel LOL xD) ...but they're taking an eternity to get to points already stablished more than a year ago, as much as i enjoy the Grendels's antics their introduction fight felt like an asspull that aported very little to the main story (not to mention wasting Signum's rematch against Cypha during such an unconvenient scenario ...they need to fight their last match on the top of an active volcano or a self-destructing secret facility or something like that). If electricity-supported civilization manage to survive Dec 21 i hope to see resolution on the coming important plot events already stablished in FORCE. I'm waiting for it.

...and yeah, i ended up writing a wall of text after all xDU
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Old 2012-12-17, 19:38   Link #6666
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
What I mean is that for every action take by any group, something will have to change. And that is what doesn’t happen here. Yeah the good guys don’t want to rule the world or whatever but if they have a hold of the enemy most precious thing: why the bad guys aren’t even trying to take it back?
Because they can't. Trying to do so would risk a full-on war with the TSAB... something the Hucks want to avoid at all costs. And Curren/Karen is convinced Thoma will come back to them voluntarily.

Quote:
And even so why the good guys aren’t trying to see if they can study the Silver Cross to stop the Eclipse?
What makes you think they aren't? Remember how Shari got data on the forwards as they trained? Nanoha is training him, and you can bet they are getting tons of data on him and the Eclipse.

Quote:
they just let a 15 years old go around with the Lost Logia like is some kind of iPad. Even letting him go near other people when they don’t know if he can explode or do something, so I am assuming the thing isn’t important anymore because of how is being deal with.
Honestly, while some of your gripes hold at least a little basis, this one doesn't. They are monitoring him, but there's no chance he's going to explode. Lily keeps the Eclipse under control, and is, for intents and purposes, a cure. He's still infected, but it poses no real issue.

And, FYI, they let a 9 year old go around with a weapon of mass destruction in S1.

Quote:
Things that happen off screen is pointless. Because if it doesn’t get focus is for a reason and when you can use it as an explanation of what happen in the main plot is just lazy writing that didn’t knew how to fit all the parts. That is why I say is odd, because it feels like the author forget about it and they just bring it on later.
What would you have them do? Show a few chapters of them sitting around in a room, going through records and paper and not finding anything? How would you handle the investigation, putting yourself in their shoes?

Quote:
The investigation itself is very put aside. This creates the feeling of mystery, right? So why is all the investigation show rather like off camera? I mean how is that the TSAB knows they are call Hückebein but doesn’t seem to know who are their members? Did they just went in to every single town and proclaim: “We are the Hückebein” kind of like Jail being so kind to put his name on the drones so Fate could find it? I mean that things are solve rather fast or being present with troubles to fit the plot. That is what is call “plot convenience”
The TSAB *does* know who the members are. It's quite evident that the Bureau is aware of this mercenary group that has been operating on the fringes for some time, and only now is Hayate finally moving against it. Note that they don't have evidence on everything the Hucks have done. If you'll note Signum's fight with Cypha, the latter informs the former that, yes, the Hucks did wipe out a town.

And Jail putting his name on things, is because he has a huge ego. Not a plot convenience.

Quote:
but we later learn that were the fake Hückebein because we see Arnage and Veyron stopping the fake Hückebein when they do just that and even show some feeling over the fact they just kill a lot of people when until that point they didn’t even care. So were the fake Hückebein just going around saying they were the originals? If that is the case, why? To lead the TSAB to the Hückebein and not to the fake ones? But if they are all Eclipse Drivers why they will want to make the TSAB hear about the Eclipse in the first place? But ok, they might want them to eliminate the Hückebein for them so why isn’t Vandin actually helping the TSAB and is the other company doing the job? Fine maybe explain later.
I think you might be a bit confused here. The "fake Huckbein" you are referring to weren't trying to pretend to be the Hucks at all. They are just another group of infectees. So I'm not sure what you're asking here.

And Vandin's motives are a bit shrouded in mystery, but that's natural. We didn't know Precia's motives until near the end. We didn't know Jail's real motives until near the end. This is fairly standard story-telling, for a villain to keep his real motives a secret. I'm not sure why you have a problem with it, since you've come through S1 and StrikerS.

Quote:
But on the TSAB side: they did found the lab on Ruwella where Thoma take the Silver Cross while there were on another planet blowing something up and revealing they didn’t find the Silver Cross there. So how did they get to know about the Silver Cross on the first place? If they were already chasing the labs on other planets how is that they don’t have anything on Vandin up until that point when it’s clear there is an organization behind it. I mean the tech, the people… I can’t buy none of them talk or at some point Hayate didn’t just call Verossa to read their minds for a few seconds. So they didn’t make a connection between the Hückebein and the guys making Eclipse Drivers? If they realize there were two different teams then why they never try to track down anything back to the source and we didn’t even get to see what happen to the people on the lab ever again.
Look, you're just gonna have to accept that you aren't going to be shown everything. I'm not sure why you think the point about wanting to know when they knew about the silver cross book, to be something to get obsessed over. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they didn't have any intelligence prior to this.

But it is established that they don't have anything on Vandin yet (as of the translated volumes I have access to). They didn't even really know he was involved, and it's not surprising. If he's trying to actively hide his involvement (which is sounds like he is), then the Bureau may not be too sure. They know someone is making Eclipse stuff, just not who. It's partly why they want to get their hands on the Hucks and other Eclipse infectees, to see who is doing this.

It's up to the writer to establish what his characters do and do not know going into a story. It's not something to get hung up over, because it's a fair thing for a writer to do. I do it myself all the time, with my stories. You have to establish a base line somewhere, so as long as you do so, it's perfectly normal.

There are some things to question and issues to criticize, but this isn't one, sorry.

Quote:
Later when we find out that Vandin is behind it all they say there is something suspicions about Hardis when they discover: that his company was experimenting with a deathly virus without telling anybody, creating copies of deadly weapons, experimenting on living human beings and lying on the face to their investigators when they ask who attack them… I will say that is more than enough to put you in jail, but here we need to wait so the 3 guys who we just pick up train and join the SD6 either they want to or not. I mean… is this the mystery? That Hardis was bad? It was obvious. And why is he doing this? Well that is the mystery because his actions don’t make any sense at all. He let the TSAB put him on jail, he let the Grendels fool him and he betray the Hückebein… I do hope we get something out of it.
As I said, I can't comment too much on the latest chapters, because I haven't read translated versions, so I'd only be going off second and third-hand summaries, which may not be entirely accurate. But I think you're really getting too upset over things which are perfectly logical not to know at this time. Your questions will be answered, but you just need patience. It's hard, I know, with a once-a-month manga, but that's what we have. Especially since we are also short on translated chapters.

On that note...

Aki, look at things this way:

We have 20 translated volumes. Not sure how many we're up to with the untranslated ones, but I'll go with 30. With a normal weekly manga, that would 6-7 months of story(if we go with 30). If it was once-a-week, you honestly would be satisfied with the pace.

But really, the pace does seem slow, because it comes out Once. A. Month. And sometimes it skips a month. That's a long time to wait, and it will make things seem longer in your mind. It's the difference between watching a pot boil, and doing something fun while the pot heats up. One will seem faster than the other.

That's why you have and Sansker have lots of questions. I do, too. But the series has BARELY gotten started. Did you want to know the entire plot upon the completion of the second episode of A's? Did you demand that they explain all? Did you think A's had a lot of problems because it didn't explain everything in episode 3?

Or did you sit and wait to watch the rest of the series to to watch as everything unfolded?

Your presents are sitting under the Christmas tree, but goddamn... wait until Christmas. No amount of whining about wanting to know what's in them, will change the time frame between now and then.
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Old 2012-12-17, 21:15   Link #6667
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The same as always: give it time. But it has already had plenty. Don’t get me wrong, I get what you mean but I am not that whiling to forgive it here because it takes so long.

Hey, is just my take on the matter but just to show how we can have this kind of visions on the same things. First, the Hückebein don’t want a war with the TSAB? Why not? I mean is not like they have been proving too much of a threat for them so, why they even care? Of course you could argue here, but I am talking about what we have been seeing so far. So yes, I can assume they are not making any progress for the same reason you assume they are making some progress with the Silver Cross: We aren’t told and we don’t see them. So really could be one or the other.

And yes, I know they keep an eye on Thoma but again: we aren’t told. I mean the Eclipse was this huge thing that can destroy the magic society, so I am not willing to let the guy with such powers walk around freely. Nanoha is not the same when you consider she was her normal self with her own powers and the Jewel Seeds were all seal with already know spells on a very reliable device as Raising Heart. Is an endless argument there.

And yes, I would like to see the investigation. Talking about the case, sharing what they know, talking with witnesses and getting information… there is a ton of ways to handle that and we can seem them being active and progressing their investigation. Not like so far where they just seem to forget about it until the truth hits them on the face.

There is just a small problem with Cypha’s words. We do get to see later Arnage and Veyron fighting the fake Hückebein and entering a village after those destroys it and kill every single human. In that situation Arnage says that was a very bad action and seems kind of shock by the deaths of a bunch of unknow people. Not to mention is obvious that the duo of the gunblade and the book are not the Hückebein.

Also Jail putting his name on the drones? Plot convenience. There is no way around it: how else could we even get to know he was involved on the fights? It was a cheap excuse to cover the fact the villain has no real introduction on the sotry. For that matter I still don’t know what Jail’s goal was even at this point, since is never clear.

Precia did show her objectives soon: get the Jewel Seeds, the Wolkeritter: complete the Book of Darkness, hell even Jail was trying to get Relic. All of them had clear goals and they were trying to get them done, but on Force no bad guy has a clear motivation and is making me confuse. What I mean all the time is that rather than being actually face with a mystery I am not getting anything of this sotry and when you have your readers asking things like: “Who is this guy?” “Why that happen?” or “Why they did that?” is not a good sign. I can take some mystery if the bases are clear, but they are not.

So is really the fact that the bad guys have no clear goal and that they seem to be jumping around that doesn’t get me involve with the story. And the we enter realms of bland and bad characters who also doesn’t help the fact that the story is confusing, with a terrible pace and not clear tone. You say you do that when you are writing but little build ups will help the later payoff. Because otherwise when a character long forget just jumps in the scene and says “I get the solution, I was working on it while you were gone” it feels cheap.

Of course we can keep the “Wall of Texts War” and not get to an agreement. I am just saying that, on my opinion, the story feels confusing, the characters are bland or downright bad and it could be avoid it if the writer just make it simpler and not so unnecessary complex. That is just all. We don’t need to get angry, just share ideas. I do get your points Kaijo, but I am not convinced and only time could proof us wrong or right.
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Old 2012-12-17, 21:42   Link #6668
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On the issue of time pacing in my opinion that stopped being an excuse long ago. 30 manga chapters are more than enough to make some decent progress on a story, it's been done before. And FORCE is infact dragging stuff more than necessary. We're not on Ep 2 of A's anymore, heck there has been like 4 encounters with the Huckebein already and now the 5th is about to star on next chapter (not to mention the Grendels and Tohma. And even after all that showoff of abilities, lame upgrades and some exposition we still don't have a freaking clue on what's really happening xDU

Instead of A's Ep 3, FORCE is right now more like on StrikerS Ep 11, near the half of the season, some battles happened but plot developenet is slow as hell and the series still feels like there's no solid direction to move the plot (i swear, until the Numbers attempted to kill Vivio on the helicopter StrikerS's plot felt like a child lost in a park xDU) ...ok, in FORCE's defense, the plot do have some sense of direction or at least we have been told by characters about important events soon to happen ..the problem is that "soon" has been delayed mercilessly for almost two years now xDU (of a manga that is about to reach it's 4th year xDU).

It's a once-per-month manga, ok, but the fact pagetime over those 27 Chapter has been badly administrated is more and more evident as time goes on and the story is still stuck on the same stuff.
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Old 2012-12-17, 22:03   Link #6669
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Hey, is just my take on the matter but just to show how we can have this kind of visions on the same things. First, the Hückebein don’t want a war with the TSAB? Why not? I mean is not like they have been proving too much of a threat for them so, why they even care?
No matter how strong you are, numbers can eventually do you in.

Look, I'm just gonna say this much... Reread chapters 16, 17 and 18. 90% of the questions you keep bringing up, are answered there. You get your answers in the form of the investigation, and various reasons for why people are doing things.

On RF6 and the Book of the Silver Cross: Ch16, page 15

On Touma being dangerous: Ch 16, page 24

Curren's motives: Ch 17, the first several pages. Curren is getting more interesting to me, especially at this point. She clearly has a desire to "destroy evil and do good" even if it is her own twisted version of it. She comes across much like a rogue vigilante, which keeps us (and Hayate) a bit off balance, and helps explain a bit about why they don't go after RF6. They just want to be left alone.

The investigation being shown as ongoing: Ch.17 and 18 (as well as showing how Vandin is explaining things to RF6 regarding his involvement with the Eclipse project).

And that's just a few chapters I grabbed at random. You can find the investigation happening in nearly every damn chapter. So I really don't know what you expect. They do everything you complain that you don't see. It really is starting to make me wonder if you've actually read the manga, or are just reading summaries provided by others.

Seriously, Sansker, your questions have been answered before. Actually answered. They are in the manga, in the chapters thus released *and* translated. You may want to go back and re-read what we have until now, or at least the three I pointed out, because you are really coming across as someone who hasn't actually read what the actual story. Perhaps you only read it once awhile ago, and your mind missed some details; in that case, I'd suggest re-reading it and going slow, to pick up on everything.

Quote:
Also Jail putting his name on the drones? Plot convenience. There is no way around it: how else could we even get to know he was involved on the fights? It was a cheap excuse to cover the fact the villain has no real introduction on the sotry. For that matter I still don’t know what Jail’s goal was even at this point, since is never clear.
This isn't the StrikerS thread, so I'm hesitant to get into it, but... Quattro explains it to Dieci in episode 22. The completion of biotechnology, and a space to accomplish that (ie, getting the Bureau off their backs so he can research and experiment however he pleases). But you should watch the series again, especially the episode where Fate discovers the name, in episode 6:

Shari: "Why would such a criminal go to such a length to show that it was his work?"
Fate: "If it were actually him, he'd be trying to provoke us. If it were someone else, they'd be trying to mislead us."

Both logical extrapolations. Fate is saying that, *if* it is Jail, he's essentially saying, "Yeah, I'm behind it. Come get me, if you can. Although I know you can't. Hahaha!"

Also, Precia's true goal was the revival of Alicia, which we didn't find out until episode 11. And while I'll grant that we knew the Wolkenritter's goal early on (if you consider episode 6 - the middle of the series! - to be early), we didn't find out about Graham's involvement and his goal until near the end.

Seriously, dude. Every single one of your complaints is a common Nanoha staple. They've happened before. They'll happen again. If you think it's bad, I suggest you stop reading/watching, because if Tsuzuki does a new Nanoha series, he'll do it again.

Although I suppose Vivid doesn't follow the model, but then again, it doesn't have much of a plot in the first place. Or if could, because we're in a bit of a mystery as to what the hell is the point of the manga, heh. And I find it interesting that, over in Vivid, you say we need to give the author time... and yet you seem unwilling to give him time on Force, when Force actually has a plot that is moving, and Vivid is just a fanservice shonen tournament. Do you really want Force to be more like Vivid and have *less* plot?

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On the issue of time pacing in my opinion that stopped being an excuse long ago. 30 manga chapters are more than enough to make some decent progress on a story, it's been done before. And FORCE is infact dragging stuff more than necessary. We're not on Ep 2 of A's anymore, heck there has been like 4 encounters with the Huckebein already and now the 5th is about to star on next chapter (not to mention the Grendels and Tohma. And even after all that showoff of abilities, lame upgrades and some exposition we still don't have a freaking clue on what's really happening xDU

Instead of A's Ep 3, FORCE is right now more like on StrikerS Ep 11, near the half of the season, some battles happened but plot developenet is slow as hell and the series still feels like there's no solid direction to move the plot (i swear, until the Numbers attempted to kill Vivio on the helicopter StrikerS's plot felt like a child lost in a park xDU) ...ok, in FORCE's defense, the plot do have some sense of direction or at least we have been told by characters about important events soon to happen ..the problem is that "soon" has been delayed mercilessly for almost two years now xDU (of a manga that is about to reach it's 4th year xDU).

It's a once-per-month manga, ok, but the fact pagetime over those 27 Chapter has been badly administrated is more and more evident as time goes on and the story is still stuck on the same stuff.
Feel pity for those reading One Piece, a manga that has been ongoing for 10 years (and will go on another 10+ years), and has dragged on so many details. And it's a once-a-week manga!

Okay, sure, I'll grant that it's not still early on, but I think you underestimate just how much has happened. I'd say we're 40% of the way there, if not close to 50%. In terms of A's, that's episode 6. We still have quite a ways to go. StrikerS is a bit of a bad example to follow, since it felt like they stretched things out to cover the 26 episode format; a manga doesn't need to cover a season or two.

A VERY brief summary thus far:
Touma is out traveling, gets a call from Lily and goes to save her, and gets infected.
After destroying the base and trying to escape the authorities, he teams up with Isis.
RF6 gets reformed, with Hayate's goal being the capture of the Huckbein, since Teana's investigation suggested they are behind things (and the bureau has known of them for some time)
New weaponry is hinted at amongst several investigative leads.
Touma encounters Veyron, amidst several flashbacks that explain his past
Touma fights Veyron, the latter retreating after Isis comes in for backup.
The rest of the Hucks show up anyway and attempt to take him
Signum and Agito show up and fight Cypha, although they lose.
Some explanations are had while Touma and the others are captive aboard the Huck's ship.
Hayate's ship and RF6 attack the Huck's ship, and several chapters of pretty cool combat follow.
Touma and friends are eventually reclaimed
While RF6 studies and trains Touma (and his friends), we get explanations about Curren and her motives, and yet more investigations into the Eclipse (and Vandin)

That's 20 chapters. And I'll note that the beginning of Chapter 20 says, "The much awaited second arc of the newest "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha" is finally achieving a proper start!" You want to claim that it's slow going and nothing much has happened, when we've had tons of explanations and several lengthy combat sessions including one major full one battle between two sides. If this is just the start, then I'm excited, because we have tons more to go, and we've already gotten a lot!

This isn't StrikerS. This is A's with 26 episodes. We've gotten more in 20 chapters then we got in the first half of StrikerS. Manga chapters are fairly sparse by nature, and so depending on how they animate it, a single anime episode can cover 2 to 4 manga chapters. If we presume 3 chapters an episode, then we're on episode 7 of Strikers.... not even a third into a 26 ep season. Seriously, Aki, I don't know what else you want. You've gotten way more crammed into 7 episodes then we had with StrikerS.

So, again, what is really bugging you is the once-a-month nature. And yes, I'll agree that sucks and makes it seem like so much time has passed and we haven't gotten near enough.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2012-12-17 at 22:24.
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Old 2012-12-18, 00:02   Link #6670
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If you want to bring up comparisons to One Piece, I can think of a few that aren't as flattering. Just saying.

Is there a notable manga that's been running about the same time as Force? That would be the best possible method of judging something that keeps getting brought up.
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Old 2012-12-18, 00:12   Link #6671
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Ok, I read those chapters, still don’t get it. And doesn’t make the story better. You don’t seem to realize my major problem with Force. Is not only that I don’t like it, is because it fails on deliver. It keeps changing its pacing, changing the focus, playing with everything to get mention later and has so much going on that is hard for me to keep the track. Yes I will want some less plot with less characters and a more focus story. You seem to enjoy the mess when I can’t get a hold on anything. Quick dialogue and one liners to cover up a 3 chapters before question is hard to get.

Look at the Raptors. Introduce, forgotten, bring up again, defeated and now they can be dead for all I know. But I am sure they will reappear one more time and is just that the story itself is not bad, I have problems with execution and the result. I have it here, in ViVid and of course in StrikerS. Anything beyond A’s have been hard to keep up, introduce new lamer characters and is a mess as an overall story. Since tries to do so much feels weak or fast where I should care or being connected. That is it. The questions and the rest come from me just not being able to keep up with this crappy pace.
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Old 2012-12-18, 00:14   Link #6672
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Oh, obviously there are other comparisons you can make, although the validity of such comparisons can be debated. And I'm not sure what other once-a-month manga you can look to as far as what has started around the same time. Another favorite once-a-month manga of mine is Nagaserate Airantou, and it had even less than Force revelead by the 20th chapter. Though it's more of a lighthearted shonen harem.

I suppose I could put it this way... if I were turning Force into an anime, I'd pace it like so:

Force Ep1: (Chapters 0 to 2) - Thoma rescues Lily and ends ep with him blasting the area.

Force Ep2 (Chapers 3 to 5) - Thoma has escaped, meets up with Isis, and fights Veyron, collapsing afterward. Cypha and Arnage show up to capture the group, and Signum descends with Agito.

Force Ep3 (Chapters 6 and 7) - Thoma has flashback while in fever, Signum fights with Cypha, ultimately losing, and the Hucks take Thoma and friends.

Force Ep4 (Chapters 8 to 10) - Explanations are had aboard the Huck's ship, while Hayate pulls her team together for pursuit. The attack begins, and ep ends when Thoma gets possessed by the book, and they are ejected from the ship.

Force Ep5 (chapters 11 to most of 15) - Battle continues, and concludes with Lily reacting with Thoma to stop him as the Huck's fly off.

Force Ep6 (Chapters 15 to 19) - Curren's escapades tracking down and killing Vandin personnel and other eclipse infectees, while RF6 recovers, Thoma is trained, and the investigation continues.

Force Ep7 (chapters 20 - ?) Curren sends invite/threat to Thoma, Thoma fights Signum, and ...?

StrikerS had it's first battle in episode 5, and it was relatively minor. By comparison, Thoma fights in ep 2, Signum/Cypha in Ep3, and we have a major conflict spanning eps 4 and 5. 6 has some minor combat between Hucks and other eclipse infectees as well. *And* we've had a ton of plot exposition and explanations and flashbacks already.

At least, this is how I'd do it. The only iffy thing is the number of chapters for Ep5; given the volume, if I wanted to flesh things out a bit, I might push the end of the major battle into Ep 6, and thus fill out ep 7 with some of the stuff I have in ep 6. It might not flow as well, though.

Still, I think we've gotten a decent amount of stuff to be 7 episodes into a 26 episode series. We have the bad guys established, although full motives and explanations are still a mystery. And we've had quite a bit of action so far, too. Seems decently paced to me. Not sure what else one might want.

Edit: Ah, Sansker, I see your problem. Yeah, Vivid has a MUCH similar plotline, so if one is used to that, Force's more complex plot would naturally be more confusing. There's a lot of characters and aspects to juggle, that it can be hard to miss the subtle byplay between all them. So, I'd suggest you stop reading Force and stick with Vivid and other simpler manga. Will be less confusing for you.
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Old 2012-12-18, 00:20   Link #6673
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I think the one you made can be debated, personally, but this isn't a thread about that series.

You could probably go fewer than that, honestly, depending on if they feel like adding onto fights. So we could be looking at a Force anime in...2015ish, maybe? Hopefully no-one gets tired of Dog Days in the mean-time.
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Old 2012-12-18, 00:37   Link #6674
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ViVid is horrible as well, is just knows it and still pretends has a story. The chapters I just read show it really well. But as I say too much and nothing really of value. You see the main villain hasn’t been establish, we don’t know what anybody but the good guys is trying to get and still have a lot of characters that seems to go nowhere. Is not a lot of good things, is a lot of bad and poor written things. Like what happen with StrikerS. So in the end we are making a rather simple story an over complex mix that doesn’t keep you attention for too long.
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Old 2012-12-18, 02:00   Link #6675
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A VERY brief summary thus far:
ok, let's see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Touma is out traveling, gets a call from Lily and goes to save her, and gets infected.
After destroying the base and trying to escape the authorities, he teams up with Isis.
RF6 gets reformed, with Hayate's goal being the capture of the Huckbein, since Teana's investigation suggested they are behind things (and the bureau has known of them for some time)
New weaponry is hinted at amongst several investigative leads.
Touma encounters Veyron, amidst several flashbacks that explain his past
Touma fights Veyron, the latter retreating after Isis comes in for backup.
The rest of the Hucks show up anyway and attempt to take him
Signum and Agito show up and fight Cypha, although they lose.
Some explanations are had while Touma and the others are captive aboard the Huck's ship.
Any of that fits easily within 3 or four Episodes max. (Heck, A's has it's first major battle started right in Ep. 1 xDU). And isn't that much really (Tohma's introduction doesn't need an entire episode, 10 mins at best are more than enough to cover that part). The reasembling of RF6 took around 6 pages in manga, therefore doesn't need more than 2 mins, the first Episode could easily ends with the start of Tohma Vs. Veyron with said fight taking half of Ep. 2 due to Veyron's small exposition. The hints of new weaponry were in a small conversation between Nanoha and Subaru the rest of the Hucks could easily be introduced during the 2nd half of Ep. 2. Then Ep 3 follows Tohma's group travelling and Suabru's past with him following the second Half with Cypha Vs. Signum's first half of the battle and starting with Signum's defeat during Ep. 4 (it was a really short battle: Signum attacks, looks cool, Cypha laughs, reveals how weak Signum is, Signum got trounced, end of story). The there's still time to see tohma's kidnapping abouard the Huckship and Hayate preparing to going Gendou Ikari on the Hucks.

You're making all of that sound to be bigger than it really was...

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Hayate's ship and RF6 attack the Huck's ship, and several chapters of pretty cool combat follow.
The key word is "several" (ok, it's just my opinion but Nanoha VS. Tohma was pretty boring, Deville VS. Fate was more interesting) the fight was dragged far longer than necessary ..to the point it almost felt like Goku VS. Frieza at the end of the Namek Saga (the fight that made 5 minutes to last an entire week xDU). No kidding, the fight lasted for almost a year xDU

Quote:
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Touma and friends are eventually reclaimed
While RF6 studies and trains Touma (and his friends), we get explanations about Curren and her motives, and yet more investigations into the Eclipse (and Vandin)
Again, stuff that could be smartly fitted withing far fewer chapters than it took xDU The chapter where Signum fought Tohma was kind of pointless (in fact, most episodes with "mock battles" are pretty pointless in the long run, a point StrikerS made very clear xDU) And the "investigations" on the Eclipse were barely hinted (the best we've got was Fate and Cinque going the Vandin Corp for an interview). No complains with Curren's exposition, tough. As i've said, it was interesting to see she's planning to do something big in the near time (or what i perceived as "near" back then xDU).

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That's 20 chapters. And I'll note that the beginning of Chapter 20 says, "The much awaited second arc of the newest "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha" is finally achieving a proper start!" You want to claim that it's slow going and nothing much has happened, when we've had tons of explanations and several lengthy combat sessions including one major full one battle between two sides. If this is just the start, then I'm excited, because we have tons more to go, and we've already gotten a lot!.
Becasue it's slow and nothing much has happened xDU Tohma is introduced we knew his sad story, the Hucks appear kicks all sorts of butts and take him, then he goes emo-psycho and the Hucks face S6 and Tohma returns with them. Then Curren makes an announcement of the next important event. And presto, that covers almost that is remotely relevant, other stuff being pointless filler. Tohma's training sessions with Vita and the Forwards, Signum's sparring match, Vanding looking smug and daily life at Section Six are for the most part intrascendent stuff that could be minimized to make space for better story following. The introduction of the grendels with Signum and Cypha's rematch crammed up inside seemed like a lame attempt to make up for the wasted time. But well, things seems to be finally moving on since Sonica's introduction so i hope this time will be the real deal instead of more empty promises xDU.

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I suppose I could put it this way... if I were turning Force into an anime, I'd pace it like so:

Force Ep1: (Chapters 0 to 2) - Thoma rescues Lily and ends ep with him blasting the area.

Force Ep2 (Chapers 3 to 5) - Thoma has escaped, meets up with Isis, and fights Veyron, collapsing afterward. Cypha and Arnage show up to capture the group, and Signum descends with Agito.

Force Ep3 (Chapters 6 and 7) - Thoma has flashback while in fever, Signum fights with Cypha, ultimately losing, and the Hucks take Thoma and friends.

Force Ep4 (Chapters 8 to 10) - Explanations are had aboard the Huck's ship, while Hayate pulls her team together for pursuit. The attack begins, and ep ends when Thoma gets possessed by the book, and they are ejected from the ship.

Force Ep5 (chapters 11 to most of 15) - Battle continues, and concludes with Lily reacting with Thoma to stop him as the Huck's fly off.

Force Ep6 (Chapters 15 to 19) - Curren's escapades tracking down and killing Vandin personnel and other eclipse infectees, while RF6 recovers, Thoma is trained, and the investigation continues.

Force Ep7 (chapters 20 - ?) Curren sends invite/threat to Thoma, Thoma fights Signum, and ...?
Why aren't you Tsuzuki T-T?

I swear that if a FORCE anime were done by him we'll be still seeing Tohma travelling with Isis and Lily by Ep 7 and the first major battle of Hucks VS. S6 happening on Ep. 14 xDU
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Old 2012-12-18, 03:05   Link #6676
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ViVid is horrible as well, is just knows it and still pretends has a story. The chapters I just read show it really well. But as I say too much and nothing really of value. You see the main villain hasn’t been establish, we don’t know what anybody but the good guys is trying to get and still have a lot of characters that seems to go nowhere. Is not a lot of good things, is a lot of bad and poor written things. Like what happen with StrikerS. So in the end we are making a rather simple story an over complex mix that doesn’t keep you attention for too long.
Sansker do you read much? Thirty percent is not bad pacing considering the author is simply taking advantage of print media's more lenient time constraints.

Anime is expensive so plots are compressed, but Nanoha fallows a very simple formula, we meet our main hero(s), rival(s) show confront them, retreat, they meet a governmental ally who fills them on what is going on, turns out the bad guys aren't that bad except for one or two elements that they don't know how to deal with, the redeemable foes(particularly the rivals defect after a sound beating true villain is brought down thanks to a joint effort, the former villains are rehabilitated and incorporated into the military structure.

A novel can spend within good measure about a third of the plot distinguishing who is the bad guys, and then you learn their objectives particularly if there is more then one group in play.

The Hucks are clearly going to defect they. They have been lenient on the heroes, blamed for things they didn't do, and are afflicted by a disease that makes them violent. From what I've seen the Grendal's are a bunch of pawns that enjoys their illness and are ready to use devious methods to subvert the heroes.

The pacing seems fine to me especially if Toma takes the meeting we are most likely to learn the Hucks' motivation. This is an inter-dimensional crisis with biological warfare, all the other seasons were restricted to one planet, complexed things take time to work out.

Spoiler for thoughts:


Sure I wish it would come out faster but what good is it to complain? Do you know the author reads English and visits this site, I doubt it. Why even read it if you have nothing good to say about it. I have a complaints, mainly about the author forgetting the definition of main character, but what good does it do to get this mad about things we really have no voice in?
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Old 2012-12-18, 03:29   Link #6677
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Originally Posted by Slilent Type View Post
The Hucks are clearly going to defect they. They have been lenient on the heroes, blamed for things they didn't do, and are afflicted by a disease that makes them violent. From what I've seen the Grendal's are a bunch of pawns that enjoys their illness and are ready to use devious methods to subvert the heroes.
I doubt all of the will have that luxury, unlike the Wolks and Fate, the Huckebein have tons of acertainable crimes on their list ...we saw the TSAB going harder on the Numbers than it were on the Wolks and Fate because they generated casualties during their assault on the TSAB ...the memebrs mainly responsible for it are still in prison paying for their crimes. So things don't look so bright for the main perpetrators inside the Huckebein family (those being Curren, Cypha, Fortis and maaaybe Veyron), Cypha and Curren are specially in trouble for near killing named officers (Curren can save some face because she intentionally spared Hayate but Cypha's killing intent was clear with Signum only surviving by mere luck).

In short words the Huckebein have worst identified crimes under their belt which will make the "reform them and put it into military service" a lot harder than in past seasons.

Thinking about it, a plausible way could be to form a special squad with the Huckebein to do all the worst, extreme and most dangerous and morally questionable jobs the TSAB have for them in exchange of sparing them from their death penalties. Sort of a "Suicide Squad". That could be interesting and even triger their own spin-off manga should Tsuzuki wants to do it (being far more capable in a battlefield than Section Six ever hope to be).

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Originally Posted by Slilent Type View Post
...but what good does it do to get this mad about things we really have no voice in?
To let it out so it stops piercing my heart xDU
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Old 2012-12-18, 08:35   Link #6678
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Aki, the 7 episodes I listed out, would pretty much be Force if Tsuzuki had it animated. As I said, 2-4 manga chapters per episode is standard. The only currently running series I could point you to that I watch, is Fairy Tail. You can see for yourself, if you watch that, that it takes 2-4 chapters per episode. What eats up time is talking and exposition; when you take combat from manga and put it into anime, you usually find that you've only used up very little time.

So, as I was trying to point out, we're only 7 episodes in. Given what we've learned and established so far (tons of characters, and their motivations and some of their backstories, as well as combat and several plot developments), you just can't call it slow. If this were a weekly anime, I guarantee, you wouldn't be calling it slow at all.

At the very least, it's faster than StrikerS.

And Sansker, it's fine. If you don't get it and understand things by now in Force, you aren't going to, and I don't care to try and explain and point out pages anymore because that will involve walls of texts while I spell out every single detail you keep missing (or choosing not to see). Unless you want to stick a very specific thing, and I can point out every single place in the manga that addresses it. But that's only if you really want to understand, which I don't think, at this point, that you do.
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Old 2012-12-18, 10:53   Link #6679
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No, again you don’t get what I mean. I do understand, because I did read the story again but is so confusing and hard to get that I actually need extra reading in order to get some of these ideas. That is not a good sign. And is still my point. Yes, takes time, yes is development but who says that is making it good? Tons of characters, yes, back story from only Thoma and Lily since all the rest haven’t give any at all. Veyron doesn’t count; one page flashback without context doesn’t mean backstory and I don’t think the Grendel or the Hückebein family have more. In fact we don’t even know why some of the Hückebein aren’t named “Hückebein” like Stella or that new girl that appears on later episodes.

But I don’t want to hear “later on” since this is not creating “The Usual Suspects” I only ask for a clear goal to for the characters to be working on. Instead we don’t have one since the Silver Cross, the thing we supposedly wanted all this time, is already on the good guys hands. So the rest falls on “what should we do now?” And that is the rest of the manga. And I am sorry if you like the characters or the story but is just so bad. The story is the same from previous seasons, bad guys ending up like good guys, but back there we at least try to give them something. Here the author just keeps sending more and more stuff to the story instead of sticking on what he already has. That is the reason why I am starting to wonder the parts that are missing, the story isn’t interesting is confusing. And like I said I can take a mystery if at least you give some bases clear.

But no this kind of thing where the focus of the story has already being change 3 times in its first third of the series. I will not mind it if the author take its time to reveal something but he creates too many questions and when he gives answers is just creating more questions. Slow? Sometimes Force can be too fast for its own good and since is repeating the same formula from previous seasons is boring because I already know what is going to happen. So the mystery is more of an annoying thing rather than an interesting one. Who cares what is the Hückebein family’s motive when we know how they will end? Or worse, who cares about the Grendel family when we already have the Hückebein and Hardis? I mean if the Grendel were a part of things since the beginning why they didn’t appear until now? Oh yes, the author didn’t think about it.

And so with questions and villains already confusing their motives we introduce even more characters that so far add nothing to the story. Just think about it. I can remove the Grendels and the Hückebein could still try and find Hardis to do whatever they want. Maybe creating another attack to distract the good guys and even have Signum and Cypha fighting. In which part did I need a bunch of rejected Looney Tunes villains? That is all. Most of the stuff in Force don’t add to the story and creates filer. Hey, most of the scenes that aren’t related to the plot are just filer and a very boring one at that.
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Old 2012-12-18, 12:12   Link #6680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I doubt all of the will have that luxury, unlike the Wolks and Fate, the Huckebein have tons of acertainable crimes on their list ...we saw the TSAB going harder on the Numbers than it were on the Wolks and Fate because they generated casualties during their assault on the TSAB ...the memebrs mainly responsible for it are still in prison paying for their crimes. So things don't look so bright for the main perpetrators inside the Huckebein family (those being Curren, Cypha, Fortis and maaaybe Veyron), Cypha and Curren are specially in trouble for near killing named officers (Curren can save some face because she intentionally spared Hayate but Cypha's killing intent was clear with Signum only surviving by mere luck).

In short words the Huckebein have worst identified crimes under their belt which will make the "reform them and put it into military service" a lot harder than in past seasons.

Thinking about it, a plausible way could be to form a special squad with the Huckebein to do all the worst, extreme and most dangerous and morally questionable jobs the TSAB have for them in exchange of sparing them from their death penalties. Sort of a "Suicide Squad". That could be interesting and even triger their own spin-off manga should Tsuzuki wants to do it (being far more capable in a battlefield than Section Six ever hope to be).



To let it out so it stops piercing my heart xDU
Well, Jail I am not sure about, but it was stated that the remaining numbers simply refuse to be rehabilitated. In SSX I believe there is yet another plea which they refuse.

True the Huckebein would be tricky, but this is Nanoha even by anime standards logic is stretched, but really do like the gangster squad idea it would fit them quite well.

Well you do have a point, I really shouldn't complain after the Negima ending rant I unleashed on a different board, it just seems to be turning into an oven of late.
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