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View Poll Results: Chuunibyou Demo Koi ga Shitai! - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 33 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 31 31.31%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 20.20%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 2.02%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.01%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.01%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.02%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-16, 19:20   Link #141
Elestia
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I believe this is why we never see Rikka got in trouble because of her chuunibyou--the staff intentionally avoid showing those. I vaguely remember that they even brought up something about trying to make Rikka's classmate tolerate her behaviors more than usual. I cannot find the source though so I might be mistaken. Even if we ignore or decide that Ishihara comment doesn't apply, I think the fact that she has trouble making friends before meeting Yuuta also said a lot about her trouble. Not to mention that every flashback of Yuuta and Nibutani chuunibyou-day is portrayed as very lonely.

I agree with you that her interaction, especially in the first half of the series, show that she is just having fun. But it's different when it directly involve her father. She comes out to me as "clinging" to her imagination rather than playing with it in some situations, which is dangerous IMO. Problem is, the "situations" included anything involving her family. And she cannot avoid her family, especially now that she'll live with her mother.

My opinion is that chuuni-Rikka is fine. It is what defined her character, both in-universe and as an anime character. However, right now she is using it to avoid accepting her father's death and it is pushing her toward being truly delusional. She can has her fantasy back when she dealt with that issue. And consider everything, I agree with almost everyone here that it is practically guaranteed that she will have it back next episode. What I'm looking forward to see is "how".
Doesn't that actually support my position then? The tone that the studio is setting means that Rikka's problem isn't as serious as everyone makes it out to be. Like the quote, they actually tried to make Rikka's chuuninbyou problem much more lighter THAN IT COULD HAVE BEEN, which is probably the entire point of the recent discussions. Sure, if they had the intention to start with a darker introduction and Rikka's problem is actually a lot more of a delusional nature, then my position would have been more harsher than what it is currently now.

You make it sound like her chuuninbyou tendencies have gotten more serious compared to the beginning, which it hasn't. She's been roughly on the same wavelength since the start to the end, so I do not really see how her avoiding her father's death has "begun pushing her toward being truly delusional".
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:25   Link #142
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I believe this is why we never see Rikka got in trouble because of her chuunibyou--the staff intentionally avoid showing those. I vaguely remember that they even brought up something about trying to make Rikka's classmate tolerate her behaviors more than usual. I cannot find the source though so I might be mistaken. Even if we ignore or decide that Ishihara comment doesn't apply, I think the fact that she has trouble making friends before meeting Yuuta also said a lot about her trouble. Not to mention that every flashback of Yuuta and Nibutani chuunibyou-day is portrayed as very lonely.

I agree with you that her interaction, especially in the first half of the series, show that she is just having fun. But it's different when it directly involve her father. She comes out to me as "clinging" to her imagination rather than playing with it in some situations, which is dangerous IMO. Problem is, the "situations" included anything involving her family. And she cannot avoid her family, especially now that she'll live with her mother.
It's clear that the "current" Rikka is unnecessarily miserable and out of whack, but I still think people are over-correcting the other way and acting as if Rikka had no serious issues at school (never mind her family life) from her chuunibyou, despite the fact that even "in-universe" Rikka has ONE friend before she meets Yuuta. And Hyper's post indicates that the writers deliberately understated the obvious problems Rikka's behavior would present in a "real" school environment. I deal a lot with teenagers, and it's my professional opinion that Rikka's high school is filled with a degree of patience and tolerance of difference that only otherworldly saints (or kawaii anime characters) could possess. And I haven't even bothered to adjust for Japan's legendary social cohesion/conformism. Now that the writers have chosen to invoke reality with a vengeance, these are all things that need to be considered, especially for those who think Yuuta is a total jerk for what he did.

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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Doesn't that actually support my position then? The tone that the studio is setting means that Rikka's problem isn't as serious as everyone makes it out to be. Like the quote, they actually tried to make Rikka's chuuninbyou problem much more lighter THAN IT COULD HAVE BEEN, which is probably the entire point of the recent discussions. Sure, if they had the intention to start with a darker introduction and Rikka's problem is actually a lot more of a delusional nature, then my position would have been more harsher than what it is currently now.

You make it sound like her chuuninbyou tendencies have gotten more serious compared to the beginning, which it hasn't. She's been roughly on the same wavelength since the start to the end, so I do not really see how her avoiding her father's death has "begun pushing her toward being truly delusional".
But what has changed is that the writers decided to introduce the mother and strongly imply that Rikka's chuunibyou wasn't as harmless as it seemed (or a good thing, even) at the beginning of the story. And so we get the drastic change in tone for the whole series. But it's there, and Yuuta has responded accordingly, for better or for worse (both in terms of plot progression/consistency, and how we view his character).
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:47   Link #143
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
But what has changed is that the writers decided to introduce the mother and strongly imply that Rikka's chuunibyou wasn't as harmless as it seemed (or a good thing, even) at the beginning of the story. And so we get the drastic change in tone for the whole series. But it's there, and Yuuta has responded accordingly, for better or for worse (both in terms of plot progression/consistency, and how we view his character).
It's vague how Rikka's relationship with her mother is. From episode 7, it seemed that their mother actually had to leave them alone soon after their father died. This is why she and Touka was living with the grandparent's house. So to a certain degree a child who loses her father and has their mother abandon them soon after makes it more reasonable to assume that Rikka's chuuninbyou isn't the main problem. Added to the fact that Touka told Yuuta that their grandfather is a strict, no-nonsense type of person as well, it wasn't too surprising that friction occurred within the family. I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone in the family shares part of the blame, not just Rikka.
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:56   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
It's clear that the "current" Rikka is unnecessarily miserable and out of whack, but I still think people are over-correcting the other way and acting as if Rikka had no serious issues at school (never mind her family life) from her chuunibyou, despite the fact that even "in-universe" Rikka has ONE friend before she meets Yuuta. And Hyper's post indicates that the writers deliberately understated the obvious problems Rikka's behavior would present in a "real" school environment. I deal a lot with teenagers, and it's my professional opinion that Rikka's high school is filled with a degree of patience and tolerance of difference that only otherworldly saints (or kawaii anime characters) could possess.
I think you're overstating this. Based on what we've actually seen Rikka do, I can easily believe that most of her classmates would choose to just leave well enough alone. And that's more or less what they seemed to have done.

Also, I think you have to consider the Mori Summer effect. When the most popular and respected girl in school joins your club, I think that gives you a certain immunity against being picked on a lot.

In fact, Shinka being in Rikka's club might have even caused the teacher's to reconsider it. Having a student with a very good reputation on your side can go a long way in a school setting.


Quote:
Now that the writers have chosen to invoke reality with a vengeance,
Have they? We still have Dekomori using her hair as a weapon. We still haven't seen Rikka face any significant backlash (from her classmates) for her chuunibyou persona - Look at how quickly no fewer than three girls wanted to become friends with her!

Heck, I actually find that less realistic than most of what I saw before this episode.


Quote:
these are all things that need to be considered, especially for those who think Yuuta is a total jerk for what he did.
I don't think he's a total jerk. At worst, he made a generally well-intentioned mistake. I have little doubt that Yuuta wants to do what's ultimately best for Rikka (hence why the whole "irresponsibility" thing got to him). Where I think he's probably erring is in his determination of what's best for Rikka. But that doesn't change the fact he's more or less trying to do the right thing.


Quote:
But what has changed is that the writers decided to introduce the mother and strongly imply that Rikka's chuunibyou wasn't as harmless as it seemed (or a good thing, even) at the beginning of the story. And so we get the drastic change in tone for the whole series. But it's there, and Yuuta has responded accordingly, for better or for worse (both in terms of plot progression/consistency, and how we view his character).
In my view, this episode is simply loaded with reasons to think that Rikka completely cutting herself off from chuunibyou has harmed her, and is probably an unhealthy extreme.

To be completely frank, I don't know how anybody can watch this episode and think that Rikka's chuunibyou was an entirely bad thing.
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Old 2012-12-17, 02:24   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Doesn't that actually support my position then? The tone that the studio is setting means that Rikka's problem isn't as serious as everyone makes it out to be. Like the quote, they actually tried to make Rikka's chuuninbyou problem much more lighter THAN IT COULD HAVE BEEN, which is probably the entire point of the recent discussions. Sure, if they had the intention to start with a darker introduction and Rikka's problem is actually a lot more of a delusional nature, then my position would have been more harsher than what it is currently now.

You make it sound like her chuuninbyou tendencies have gotten more serious compared to the beginning, which it hasn't. She's been roughly on the same wavelength since the start to the end, so I do not really see how her avoiding her father's death has "begun pushing her toward being truly delusional".
Aquifina already responded to this better than I could, but here is my version:

I interpreted Ishihara's comment as Rikka's chuunibyou problem is shown less serious than it actually is (in-universe). Not that her problem is less serious than what should have been in real life. So, if I understand his comment correctly, it doesn't support your position. In fact, it invalidates the argument "I don't see her having any serious trouble due to her chuunibyou, so pre-episode 11 Rikka is totally ok" because it's not that she doesn't have any problem, it just that we the viewers don't get to see them even if she has them. To push this further, this implies Rikka does have a lot of troubles due to her chuunibyou. However, I'm reluctant to do so because even if he is the supervisor, his comment is still not part of the show. Thus, I'll stop at just using the comment to argue that we cannot conclude that her chuunibyou doesn't get Rikka into any trouble.

For the other point, I do think her chuunibyou has gotten more serious when it involves her family, which is now unavoidable because she has to live with her mother. If you think that it hasn't, then I'll just have to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone in the family shares part of the blame, not just Rikka.
I begins to think that we're trying to reach the same point from a different ends. I'm trying to say that Rikka does share the blame, not just those around her.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
To be completely frank, I don't know how anybody can watch this episode and think that Rikka's chuunibyou was an entirely bad thing.
I don't think anyone argues that it's entirely a bad thing. The problem is right now it fused with something entirely bad.
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Old 2012-12-17, 02:57   Link #146
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My list of known child abusers:
#1: Araragi
#2: Yuuta.

But really, Dekomori was fantastic this episode.
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Old 2012-12-17, 06:07   Link #147
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Wow, in a couple days the series will be over. I'm very impressed with this series! Kyoto Animation has yet again won my heart for its amazing voice acting, good slice of life themes, and beautiful animation.
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Old 2012-12-17, 07:14   Link #148
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Even though I've wrote a lot on the chuunibyou debate, I will admit that I feel like I haven't quite hit on the full, core essence for why I feel and think the way that I do on it.

Then I saw papermario13689's avatar, and it hit me like a ton of moe.



I want that Rikka back. I want that lively, energetic, fun-loving, "sparkle in her eyes" Rikka. And I think it's very clear that certain aspects of chuunibyou bring this out of Rikka like nothing else can.

I want Rikka to smile again.
Funny how you use that as an example of how chunnibiyou brings Rikka happiness, when that smile was a result of Rikka meeting the class average in math and saving her club as a result of Yuuta and her combined efforts.

In other words, this was Rikka being happy about a real accomplishment.

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You write this as those it's strange. Many kids, and even many adults, compartmentalize in this way. Most people have sides to themselves, or personal background details, that they don't share with casual friends (which is all Shinka and Kumin are to Rikka).
There's a difference between being natural and being rationally correct. Humans are naturally capable of many things that may not be morally proper to do.

People can hate. People can act on that hate and kill another person for revenge. Despite that, could you support them continuing to act on those emotions? Your real world analogy is flawed.

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How many people endure significant lost at a young age? Now, how many of those people eventually move on from it? That's not to say there's no lingering effects from it throughout the rest of their lives, but people tend to move on, and find a way to be happy in life, nonetheless.

The key is having a good support structure in place (or creating one) that better enables a person to move on. Rikka never had that before, but she gained that through Yuuta and through her club (which is another reason why I view Rikka's club in a more positive light than you, Klash, and Random32 seem to).
And how many people do not move on from a significant loss? Your rhetorical question is not valid when there are plenty who are not living happily after a traumatic event.

As circular as this sounds, the key to having a good support structure is that it actually does... you know, support, as the name states.

Every little bit of happiness you seem to attribute to Rikka's chuunibiyou, especially the bit where she was happy after the test, you don't seem to recognize that part where Yuuta made an effort to keep her in check and ground her in reality.

The above mentioned avatar was when she passed a test on a subject she was the least proficient in. Even, if you could argue that it was not so much about her efforts paying off as it is about the rewards, even the rewards are more realistic than finding the Horizon or defeating some fantasy villian. Rikka gets to change and exchange contact info with the boy she is most interested in. She gets to save her club that she made.
Then there's officially entering a relationship with the guy she loves.

These are all realistic consequences that made Rikka happy, and yet you seem to believe that letting her have her way with her chuuni fantasies like a child playing with a sharp object he thinks is a toy instead of stopping him is the way to happiness.

The club is fine. Playing fantasy on her own free time is fine. Even pretending that it was your magic powers that opened the train doors is fine.
However, playing around and dropping flour for visual effect when the teacher only allowed you to have a club when the room was cleaned is not fine. Drawing pictures and fantasizing when you're supposed to be doing algebra problems to save your own club is not fine.

There are clearly times where Yuuta should not just play along. When it comes to meeting Rikka's mother who is not nearly as harsh as Touka or their grandfather, I don't see why it's wrong for Yuuta to make Rikka stop playing around, even just for those moments.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, speaking of what she gained through Yuuta...




No, I fully understand just how important Yuuta's support was to Rikka. I've stressed that many times on this thread.




I count her teachers. Where did I say I don't count her teachers?

Also... why the hell would anybody equate her peers with her elders? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?




This would have been a problem, if most people caught on to the "pretending". But, IIRC, they didn't. IIRC, they thought that Rikka really did have health concerns.




This is only a problem if the clubs go to the teachers about it. Perhaps they didn't, or at least if they did they didn't make a huge deal about it.




My point is that we don't see Rikka often acting out in class. In fact, we barely see it all. So I think some people on this thread are overstating the immediate problems caused by her chuunibyou. Presumably, Rikka wasn't acting out in class a lot... or she really would have been sent off to a shrink or something. She was likely just viewed as a bit weird and eccentric.




I never said it did translate into that. I'm simply saying that she doesn't need to rid herself of chuunibyou entirely.



This is a deeply flawed analogy, so much so that it's frankly ridiculous.

You guys really ought to quit the absurd alcoholism and heroine analogies. They just make you look like your desperately grasping at straws to me.

Why is it so hard to think that Rikka should re-embrace some chuunibyou? In a rehabilitated format?
What I find ridiculous is how you're so sensitive to an analogy simply because what you view as a positive trait is being compared to real world examples with things more widely recognized as negative. But since you don't want to recognize the underlying fallacy, let's just drop it.

What's hard to support is the fact that despite saying you support a "rehabilitated format", you don't really show much support for rehabilitating measures.

All I advocate is that Rikka needs to stop trying to find her father in the Unseen Horizon, and that Yuuta should stop her if she does. If she wants to have fantasy battles with Dekomori in the clubroom, that's fine. If she wants to run off to find the Horizon or her old home that's located miles away and leave behind her other friends, Yuuta needs to stop her, not play along.

Rikka can have her chuunibiyou in the right place at the right time. Going back to where Rikka would play around making a mess of the club room or the swimming pool they were ordered to clean is not the right place or the right time. If she needs to have her chuunibiyou back, it needs to be different from how she's been using it.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's not a "delusion". That's an opinion. People can legitimately disagree on what's "cool" or not. There's nothing "delusional" about Yuuta and Rikka finding some chuunibyou items "cool".

That's no worse than somebody finding Superman's S-symbol or Iron Man's costume or Sephiroth's theme music "cool".




The point that you and some others on this thread keep completely ignoring is that Rikka's embracing of chuunibyou had to do with more than her father alone. She also found chuunibyou "cool" in and of itself. How many times do I have to repeat myself here? The evidence is right in the anime, for crying out loud.
Yuuta told Rikka to stop in order for her to face her mother. This clearly has to do with the family's past and not just "fun". You keep ignoring this part just because it was for fun -- in other situations.

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As for LARPers, many view them as weird, sure. Does that stop them from functioning in society? I'm sure many LARPers are in decent jobs and/or have good stable families.
You keep using real world examples that have entirely different contexts from Rikka's situation. Rikka has a problem with her "off switch". This has been established.

LARPing is fine as long as it's done in a private area (or if a public one, an area where it does not disrupt the community) on private time. Rikka does it even when she has other obligations.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2012-12-17 at 07:26.
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Old 2012-12-17, 07:16   Link #149
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To be completely frank, I don't know how anybody can watch this episode and think that Rikka's chuunibyou was an entirely bad thing.
Not harmless is the same as entirely bad? Can anyone view the bento sequence and NOT come to the conclusion that Rikka's chuuni has something to do with her dreadful family life? Yes, Yuuta has fixed all the problems at school; social isolation, math, etc. nevertheless, unless you buy the argument that Rikka's family are all villainous individuals, surely there is a problem at hand when Rikka's mother appears clothed not necessarily with realism, but with the tropes of a gentle and benign anime mother. Otherwise, nothing makes sense for the last three episodes, in terms of plot or characterization. I don't think I've EVER said Rikka's current mental state is desirable, but the writers have inserted dramatic conflict for a reason. Yes, Rikka MUST reconnect with her chuuni, because it is so tightly bound to both the whole series and her character, but it must be moderated to some degree. And to moderate it now means there was too much of it before, and I don't know what else could be the purpose of introducing the mother.
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Old 2012-12-17, 08:24   Link #150
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painful last three episodes...

love surely can change many things... but what changed Rikka isn't love...
it's just another way to escape...
I really hope Rikka will find a peaceful way to end her chuuni-syndrome like what Yuuta and Nibutani did... not like this please!

feel sad during the last three episodes... poor Deko~chan...
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Old 2012-12-17, 11:29   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Aquifina already responded to this better than I could, but here is my version:

I interpreted Ishihara's comment as Rikka's chuunibyou problem is shown less serious than it actually is (in-universe). Not that her problem is less serious than what should have been in real life. So, if I understand his comment correctly, it doesn't support your position. In fact, it invalidates the argument "I don't see her having any serious trouble due to her chuunibyou, so pre-episode 11 Rikka is totally ok" because it's not that she doesn't have any problem, it just that we the viewers don't get to see them even if she has them. To push this further, this implies Rikka does have a lot of troubles due to her chuunibyou. However, I'm reluctant to do so because even if he is the supervisor, his comment is still not part of the show. Thus, I'll stop at just using the comment to argue that we cannot conclude that her chuunibyou doesn't get Rikka into any trouble.
The quote specifically says that her chuuninbyou is suppose to be more comedic in purpose that dark, so there is not much room to argue or evidence to suggest that Rikka's troubles is much more troublesome and problematic than is suggested. There in no direct reference to a past incident where Rikka's chuuninbyou has indeed caused a serious problem, if there was I would be persuaded to change my position, however, at the moment I am more inclined that her problem is relatively benign. Yes, Rikka needs to reconcile her differences with her mother and yes she has to somehow resolve her problem with father's death as well, just not at the expense of her own happiness.

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For the other point, I do think her chuunibyou has gotten more serious when it involves her family, which is now unavoidable because she has to live with her mother. If you think that it hasn't, then I'll just have to disagree.
Outside being more depressed when visiting their grandparent's house, I did not see an escalation of her chuuninbyou behavior. The train ride to her grandfather's house, the time she spent in her room, and even at the beach she seemed much more subdued than usual. The most she did was "banishment this world" and fight with Touka (which she often does) at the empty lot. Granted, the mood, not the behavior, was indeed more serious. In the end Rikka takes the train to go back home along with Yuuta, again no indication her chuuninbyou somehow got worse.

I do not believe her chuuninbyou is the main reason for her poor relationship with her mother for the reasons previously stated prior and probably after.


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I begins to think that we're trying to reach the same point from a different ends. I'm trying to say that Rikka does share the blame, not just those around her.
Well I was responding to how Rikka's problems with her mother, grandparents, and Touka are of a direct consequence of the following events and circumstances:

1) Father dies
2) Mother leaves Touka and Rikka in the care of the grandparents for about three years(?)
3) Touka leaves to go to the city to work one year after Father's death
4) Rikka is left alone in grandparent's house for roughly two years
5) During that time Rikka's chuuninbyou begins much to the disappointment of the grandfather.
6) Serious friction occurs with the impasse between Rikka's chuuninbyou and grandfather's strict policies.
7)After 2 years (?) Rikka lives with Touka

In all seriousness, I am more likely to point out that the absence of 2-3 years with Rikka's mother is the problem, not her chuuninbyou. Rikka may believe herself that discarding her chuuninbyou would cause her mother to worry less, but I don't think her mother really cares one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Every little bit of happiness you seem to attribute to Rikka's chuunibiyou, especially the bit where she was happy after the test, you don't seem to recognize that part where Yuuta made an effort to keep her in check and ground her in reality.
Not trying to belittle her accomplishment for passing the class average on the test, but at that time she was probably more happy she could prevent her "Far Eastern Magic Society of Summer Naps" from being disbanded since she worked so hard to create. I would also say Yuuta was keeping Rikka "focused", rather than "grounded in reality".
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Old 2012-12-17, 13:38   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
The quote specifically says that her chuuninbyou is suppose to be more comedic in purpose that dark, so there is not much room to argue or evidence to suggest that Rikka's troubles is much more troublesome and problematic than is suggested. There in no direct reference to a past incident where Rikka's chuuninbyou has indeed caused a serious problem, if there was I would be persuaded to change my position, however, at the moment I am more inclined that her problem is relatively benign. Yes, Rikka needs to reconcile her differences with her mother and yes she has to somehow resolve her problem with father's death as well, just not at the expense of her own happiness.
I still read that quote differently. My Japanese is not good enough to refer directly to the source, but if we go by the translation, Ishihara said he carefully shown only the comedic part. If he seriously tries to show what chuunibyou is all about, the darker part will also come out. This does not mean chuunibyou in this story only is mostly comedic in nature. To put my interpretation in an analogy, chuunibyou would be a yellow object. Green represents comedy, and red represent trouble. What they do is carefully shine only a green light on the object, so we see a green object. This does not mean the object only contain green color. It can has a lot of red mixed in as well. We just don't see it due to the lack of red light. So I disagree. There is a lot of rooms to argue that Rikka's chuunibyou is much more problematic than what we have seen. I would also argue, like Aquifina pointed out, that Rikka having only one friend before meeting Yuuta already suggested a lot of troubles.

About the delusional escalation of Rikka's chuunibyou, I guess I can only ask for an agreement to disagree at this point. I already explained that when involving her family, to me, Rikka came out as clinging to her fantasy rather than playing with it. Put it differently, she was a slave to her chuunibyou rather than the master. I can accept that you interpreted those scenes differently, however.

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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
In all seriousness, I am more likely to point out that the absence of 2-3 years with Rikka's mother is the problem, not her chuuninbyou. Rikka may believe herself that discarding her chuuninbyou would cause her mother to worry less, but I don't think her mother really cares one way or another.
Her mother may not mind her chuunibyou at all was one of my original points. Another one is that her mother's 2-3 years absence could also be mostly Rikka's fault. My main argument was we should be very cautious about putting the blame on anyone at this point. The current tragedy can even be a result of everyone's best course of actions. We don't really know.

Last edited by Hyper; 2012-12-17 at 13:39. Reason: Delete one space
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Old 2012-12-17, 14:01   Link #153
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
There is a lot of rooms to argue that Rikka's chuunibyou is much more problematic than what we have seen.
One could also argue that Rikka's mom is much more problematic than we've seen, particularly since we've seen far much less of her than we have of Rikka.

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I would also argue, like Aquifina pointed out, that Rikka having only one friend before meeting Yuuta already suggested a lot of troubles.
I, for one, don't understand why people insist that having only one friend means that there's something psychologically wrong with you. It has been a theme throughout this thread. Just exactly what is wrong with only having one real friend. Isn't having one very good, loyal friend far better than having 10 of the typical "friends" shown in anime? Backstabbing, two-faced, liars, etc., etc.

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Another one is that her mother's 2-3 years absence could also be mostly Rikka's fault.
And this theme has also been pervasive throughout this thread. It's also bullcrap. If Rikka's mother was not mature enough to "handle" her, is that Rikka's fault? No. Some kind of mental breakdown due to fragile psychological makeup? Not Rikka's fault. Her own inadequacies as a mother? There again, not Rikka's fault. There really just aren't very many reasons I can accept for a "normal" mother to abondon her child. "Normal" mothers do not abandon their children, no matter what. Did she kill her father? No. Did she cause her father's death? No. Is she a juvenile delinquent that's completely out of control? No. Was she a child that needed emotional and psychological help? Yes. Did her mother provide it? Nope, she just ran away, dumping her with her grandfather, whose attitude toward Rikka made things worse, not better.
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Old 2012-12-17, 14:17   Link #154
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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
One could also argue that Rikka's mom is much more problematic than we've seen, particularly since we've seen far much less of her than we have of Rikka.
And we have seen plenty enough of Rikka that would demonstrate she can be troublesome with people around, regardless if they are acquaintances or not.
She is by no means mental or a criminal, but she is quite disruptive and that's beyond "just comedy relief".
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I, for one, don't understand why people insist that having only one friend means that there's something psychologically wrong with you. It has been a theme throughout this thread. Just exactly what is wrong with only having one real friend. Isn't having one very good, loyal friend far better than having 10 of the typical "friends" shown in anime? Backstabbing, two-faced, liars, etc., etc.
Having few friends isn't a problem. Being unable to interact with others is a complete different matter.
Just for the record, Japanese people use 友達 for friends in a buddy way (people you can hang around and have fun with), which is not as close as 友人 or 親友, both of which respectively mean friend (close one) and best friend.

In a sense, it isn't hard to expect kids to have some friends that they can hang around, especially within the same class.

The problem is how Rikka can interact with barely anyone to the point that she basically knows -no one-. And while the anime sure didn't put the point as it would be overkill for the comedy: any lonewolf of such magnitude are quick to attract bullies, regardless if they are boys or girls.
Really, while her attempt to make friends look a feat, it is actually more than that, because she has simply none, except the club members.
Quote:
And this theme has also been pervasive throughout this thread. It's also bullcrap. If Rikka's mother was not mature enough to "handle" her, is that Rikka's fault? No. Some kind of mental breakdown due to fragile psychological makeup? Not Rikka's fault. Her own inadequacies as a mother? There again, not Rikka's fault. There really just aren't very many reasons I can accept for a "normal" mother to abondon her child. "Normal" mothers do not abandon their children, no matter what. Did she kill her father? No. Did she cause her father's death? No. Is she a juvenile delinquent that's completely out of control? No. Was she a child that needed emotional and psychological help? Yes. Did her mother provide it? Nope, she just ran away, dumping her with her grandfather, whose attitude toward Rikka made things worse, not better.
And did you actually think that her mother wasn't affected by this mess either?
Did the anime show she didn't care about her? No. Did the anime show that she ditched Rikka for the hell of it? No. Was she affected by Rikka's mutism? Yes. Was it the only reason? Who knows.

You keep using such sledgehammer without actually presenting evidence or hints of such allegations, not even starting from the very points that actually discard the "mere abandonment" theory.
1) If she abandonned Rikka, she wouldn't come back, period. It doesn't make sense for someone who really abandonned their child to show up afterwards
2) Japanese culture put a huge emphasis on image, but also duty and society. If you failed at something, the general response would be to be ashamed of that, instead of fixing the issue. If someone is being responsible for a mistake, they take full responsibility.
A situation like that does involve parents who think they do not deserve to be one and should not be responsible of their child, otherwise they might deal more harm than good.

The rift between Rikka and her mother is no one's fault, since it was a way too sudden loss for everyone, and right now Rikka's problem is -something else- than that.
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Old 2012-12-17, 14:31   Link #155
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As usual, I can't really be bothered to respond to all of your goobble-dee-gook, but I will comment on:

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
1) If she abandonned Rikka, she wouldn't come back, period. It doesn't make sense for someone who really abandonned their child to show up afterwards
Since we already know that you have not personally been intimately involved in a situation where a mother has abandoned her young teenage daughter(s), and I have, I think that experience rules here. It is not a matter of whether or not it makes sense. Yes, a mother who has previously abandoned her young teenage daughter(s) might just come back at some later date to reunite with them. She might even seek the custody of said children which she previously forfeited. Perhaps it doesn't happen in Japan. Or perhaps it's never happened before in any anime series. But, in reality, it does happen, and I'm 100% sure my particular case is not unique. If I felt motivated, I'm sure it would take little time to find headline legal cases involving these circumstances.
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Old 2012-12-17, 14:35   Link #156
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And pretty much like before, you take a single "personal experience" as granted and "truth" for everything else. Experience does not rule anything when it comes to -case by case- basis, and circumstances, even moreso when it is about emotional stuff.

And yet, you still didn't present anything that at least give actual credits to your claim that she "clearly abandonned" Rikka, as if the latter was a dead weight. I must remind you that you were the one who alledgy think that she "came back as if nothing happens" and other mentions that was not even presented by the series.

Did she do the best course of action? Most likely not. Did she care about Rikka? Many scenes point out it is the case. Does Rikka hate her? No, proved multiple times.
So is her mother the problem? No.
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Old 2012-12-17, 14:43   Link #157
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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
One could also argue that Rikka's mom is much more problematic than we've seen, particularly since we've seen far much less of her than we have of Rikka.
You could, absolutely. That is why I specifically said that I will not use Ishihara's comment to argue that Rikka's chuunibyou does indeed gave her a lot of troubles. I use it to say that the lack of evidences does not imply that it is totally problem free.


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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I, for one, don't understand why people insist that having only one friend means that there's something psychologically wrong with you. It has been a theme throughout this thread. Just exactly what is wrong with only having one real friend. Isn't having one very good, loyal friend far better than having 10 of the typical "friends" shown in anime? Backstabbing, two-faced, liars, etc., etc.
My number of real friends can also be counted on one or two hands. I also grief over the social network use of the word "friend" because I think it take a lot more that than to be called one. But I have hundreds of people who I can called acquaintances. Rikka had zero.

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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
And this theme has also been pervasive throughout this thread. It's also bullcrap. If Rikka's mother was not mature enough to "handle" her, is that Rikka's fault? No. Some kind of mental breakdown due to fragile psychological makeup? Not Rikka's fault. Her own inadequacies as a mother? There again, not Rikka's fault. There really just aren't very many reasons I can accept for a "normal" mother to abondon her child. "Normal" mothers do not abandon their children, no matter what. Did she kill her father? No. Did she cause her father's death? No. Is she a juvenile delinquent that's completely out of control? No. Was she a child that needed emotional and psychological help? Yes. Did her mother provide it? Nope, she just ran away, dumping her with her grandfather, whose attitude toward Rikka made things worse, not better.
First, I would not use the word abandon given the information we have. Second, I can think of a lot of reasons why she would put some distances. For example, if she herself is the catalyst to Rikka's psychological problem, the first thing she should do is staying away from her while Rikka clamed down before coming back later, which she did. For the record, I still not written off the idea that Rikka's mother is a the true villain. There are still scenarios that can make her one. I only suggested putting a big caution on concluding such right now.
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Old 2012-12-17, 15:49   Link #158
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Okay, just one more response and that's it for this episode thread for me.

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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
First, I would not use the word abandon given the information we have...
I have already suggested scenarios whereby mom might have been excused for dropping off her young child with the grandparents. But, if in fact this is the first time in two (three?) years that she has been in touch with Rikka, what else should we call it other than abandonment? An extended vacation?

Quote:
...For the record, I still not written off the idea that Rikka's mother is a the true villain. There are still scenarios that can make her one. I only suggested putting a big caution on concluding such right now.
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
So is her mother the problem? No.
Since I have absolutely no intimate knowledge of the final episode, I could not say with absolute certainty, like Klashikari does, that mom is not the problem. But to put all or most of the blame on Rikka, like so many are wont to do, is ridiculous. I, for one, find the eleven- or twelve-year old Rikka pretty blameless in a situation that was, ultimately, created by her mother's decision to not tell Rikka that her father was terminally ill. Granted, we do not know that, if she had known beforehand, Rikka would have been able to accept her father's death any differently. But we do know that, had her mother told her when she, herself, found out, Rikka would not have stopped talking to her mother for that reason, and the situation as it was over the last two (three?) years should have been fundamentally different.

So, the facts that we have been presented with are:

1. Rikka's mom knows her husband is terminally ill, but does not tell Rikka

2. Rikka's dad dies

3. Rikka finds out that her mother knew dad was terminally ill and stops talking to mom because mom did not tell her

4. Rikka's mom tries to get Rikka to talk to her, but fails

5. Rikka's mom drops her children off with their paternal grandparents and leaves

6. Rikka's sister moves out leaving Rikka alone with her grandparents

7. Two years later Rikka moves in with her sister

Things we don't know are:

1a. How long Rikka's mom knew her husband was terminally ill

2a. before he died?

3a. How long after her dad died before Rikka found out her mother had deceived her, or how she found out?

4a. How long did mom try to talk with Rikka before she gave up?

5a. How long after dad died before mom dropped off the kids, or

5b. why she did, and where she went or what she did?

6a. How Rikka was treated for two years by her grandparents (although it is hinted at)?

Well, there's plenty more unanswered questions, but I'm losing all motivation regarding this thread (some of you will be pleased). Although I find the banter and debates very entertaining, reading all the posts this episode thread, and responding to some, has been very time consuming, time better spent elsewhere. I do have a life that is not computerized.

Like I said before, I just hope the director is able to create a credible, believable, and positive ending for this series.
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Old 2012-12-17, 17:14   Link #159
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I still read that quote differently. My Japanese is not good enough to refer directly to the source, but if we go by the translation, Ishihara said he carefully shown only the comedic part. If he seriously tries to show what chuunibyou is all about, the darker part will also come out. This does not mean chuunibyou in this story only is mostly comedic in nature. To put my interpretation in an analogy, chuunibyou would be a yellow object. Green represents comedy, and red represent trouble. What they do is carefully shine only a green light on the object, so we see a green object. This does not mean the object only contain green color. It can has a lot of red mixed in as well. We just don't see it due to the lack of red light. So I disagree. There is a lot of rooms to argue that Rikka's chuunibyou is much more problematic than what we have seen. I would also argue, like Aquifina pointed out, that Rikka having only one friend before meeting Yuuta already suggested a lot of troubles.
We're mostly at an impasse over how much we can infer over Ishihara's take on Rikka's chuuninbyou. I view the green/comedic/benign elements of Rikka's chuuninbyou at roughly 70-80%, while the red/serious element at around 20-30%. I guess we can argue, but I'll leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
About the delusional escalation of Rikka's chuunibyou, I guess I can only ask for an agreement to disagree at this point. I already explained that when involving her family, to me, Rikka came out as clinging to her fantasy rather than playing with it. Put it differently, she was a slave to her chuunibyou rather than the master. I can accept that you interpreted those scenes differently, however.
Is there any specific scenes in the episode that really stuck out for you? I am having a hard time understanding your perspective without some substantive materials to go on.


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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Her mother may not mind her chuunibyou at all was one of my original points. Another one is that her mother's 2-3 years absence could also be mostly Rikka's fault. My main argument was we should be very cautious about putting the blame on anyone at this point. The current tragedy can even be a result of everyone's best course of actions. We don't really know.
I'm just going by what little we've seen about their mother and what Touka has revealed, nothing else. The most logical conclusion is that Rikka is not at fault for her mother's absence. Nor is Rikka's chuuninbyou at fault either. If you have scenes or dialogue you want to point to feel free to share.
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Old 2012-12-18, 00:15   Link #160
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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I have already suggested scenarios whereby mom might have been excused for dropping off her young child with the grandparents. But, if in fact this is the first time in two (three?) years that she has been in touch with Rikka, what else should we call it other than abandonment? An extended vacation?
So you agree that we do not know if this is the first time in 2-3 years that the mother talked to Rikka, correct? That's why I said let's not jump to the conclusion. I think Touka or herself actually said that she has been trying to connect with Rikka for all this time with no result. So, I don't use "abandon." I repeatedly use "put some distance." You also dismissed all of your suggested scenarios, so I'm not sure what purpose you brought it up. I suggested a scenario which will put the mother in a similar position and still conform to every given information (or at least I think it does).

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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Since I have absolutely no intimate knowledge of the final episode, I could not say with absolute certainty, like Klashikari does, that mom is not the problem. But to put all or most of the blame on Rikka, like so many are wont to do, is ridiculous. I, for one, find the eleven- or twelve-year old Rikka pretty blameless in a situation that was, ultimately, created by her mother's decision to not tell Rikka that her father was terminally ill.
And I suggested that same thing the other way around. Let's not conclude with absolute certainty that the mother is the problem. Also, let us remember that not telling Rikka was her father's call, not the mother.

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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
We're mostly at an impasse over how much we can infer over Ishihara's take on Rikka's chuuninbyou. I view the green/comedic/benign elements of Rikka's chuuninbyou at roughly 70-80%, while the red/serious element at around 20-30%. I guess we can argue, but I'll leave it alone.

Is there any specific scenes in the episode that really stuck out for you? I am having a hard time understanding your perspective without some substantive materials to go on.

I'm just going by what little we've seen about their mother and what Touka has revealed, nothing else. The most logical conclusion is that Rikka is not at fault for her mother's absence. Nor is Rikka's chuuninbyou at fault either. If you have scenes or dialogue you want to point to feel free to share.
My impression was that you think Rikka's chuunibyou was relatively problem-free (apart from the family issue) because of the lack of scenes directly showing that she got in trouble (for example, bullied). So I tried to argue using the quote that the absent of such scenes is the stuff's intention to make the tone lighter, not necessary because they want to make them actually absent from the story. If I misunderstand, please accept my apology.

It would be hard for me to suggest a specific scenes showing that her delusional behavior escalated. It is an impression I have over several scenes when her family is involved. If pressed, I'd say that Rikka repeatedly insists "It exists" much, much longer when it concerns her family issue indicated such. She really lacks the off-switch at those time. Rikka usually drops it fairly quickly if her fantasy do not benefit her in other situations, such as when she tried to play a double personalities.

The thing about whose-fault-is-it question is that I think the most logical conclusion, given the little we know about her mother, is we don't know enough. My current impression is that Rikka equally share the blame with everyone around her. However, that is not the only scenario I can think of to satisfy all known information.

(Please allow me to make a reference to one of my favorite stories)
THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

Yes, I just want to say it.
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