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Old 2012-12-16, 16:37   Link #1101
Anh_Minh
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And here the reasons for Kosugi's dissatisfaction appear: it's an ego thing. He just doesn't feel important anymore. It's natural for editors to not want to be obsoleted, but one question remains: why are the mangakas (as in Ashirogi Mutou) so set against it?
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:50   Link #1102
Guido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And here the reasons for Kosugi's dissatisfaction appear: it's an ego thing. He just doesn't feel important anymore. It's natural for editors to not want to be obsoleted, but one question remains: why are the mangakas (as in Ashirogi Mutou) so set against it?
Because Nanamine's methods both ignore and overlook the relationship between mangaka and editor constructing bonds amongst each other.

They are so against it, because I believe is a traditional practice to place both value and respect towards the editors and, moreso, if they are senior than them, although they themselves have experienced many countless times of dissatisfaction, frustration, and disagreement with their editors in the past.

Bakuman is after all adapted from a shounen manga, and shounen manga place importance in the value of bonds and victory gained from both the power of friendship and fighting spirit borned out from selfless self-determination.
Self-determination can be translated as being headstrong, reckless, hot-headed, passionate, proactive, but nonetheless a selfless and generous kind of type.

Now, what I consider evil is for an individual, group, company, or even form of government imposing that their belief is the only unique one for the rest of the world to follow.

In that regard, I do not consider Nanamine falling in that type of evil, because he's not trying to make other mangaka like Ashirogi to impose his ways or views upon them, rather he only wants acknowledgement from them that his method can work and is another way to make manga, though he does so quite arrogantly.

Ashirogi, on the other hand, falls in the stubborn good guy category that only one method, way of life, outlook, practice, or way of doing things makes them able and others to succeed. That is a method or view that has already been established since its inception many ages ago by their elders; what I term the old school fashion.

Nanamine's method would be considered evil if he's forcing Kosugi to make him do something illegal which would be harmful for the latter's reputation and morals. However, as of know, he has been brushing off Kosugi aside and thus hurting the latter's pride as an editor. Nevertheless, Kosugi made himself accomplice to Nanamine by not reporting his methods to Jack, because the latter relying upon the help of strangers around the internet while he's contracted to Jack makes him violator of rules concerning breach and leak of information.

Last edited by Guido; 2012-12-17 at 02:25.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:42   Link #1103
Azuma Denton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And here the reasons for Kosugi's dissatisfaction appear: it's an ego thing. He just doesn't feel important anymore. It's natural for editors to not want to be obsoleted, but one question remains: why are the mangakas (as in Ashirogi Mutou) so set against it?
Let me ask you one thing.
If you are so passionate about one thing to the point you sacrificing all your other things to obtain it, then one person comes and say, "Hey, whats the point of your hard work? You can "cheat" it by *insert some lazy means here*"

How is your feeling?


Nanamine's way is one way to achieve a big hit, but to say, his work has no passion in it. He just want some quick way to gain popularity. He himself doesnt have passion in creating a good manga...


And i didnt expect a twist there. He certainly got a good assistant...
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:49   Link #1104
Somnus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And here the reasons for Kosugi's dissatisfaction appear: it's an ego thing. He just doesn't feel important anymore. It's natural for editors to not want to be obsoleted, but one question remains: why are the mangakas (as in Ashirogi Mutou) so set against it?
Though I can fully understand the pride that causes Ashirogi to be so adamant about resisting Nanamine's method, I personally know that there is a glaring, fundamental weakness with that method. I'd run into it when I'd first started doing what I do for a living, and no I'm not a mangaka. The situations just apply the same rules.
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Old 2012-12-17, 00:27   Link #1105
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Spoiler for Ep11:
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Old 2012-12-17, 09:53   Link #1106
ookamigirl
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Nakai working for Nanamine.
That's exactly why he wanted Nakai, just to make sure he beats Aoki.
Even Nakai stumbled upon Nanamine's secret...
I was right, Nanamine's ship was sinking steadily.
He does have the talent, but his method was wrong.
Nanamine has totally and completely lost it.
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Old 2012-12-17, 14:49   Link #1107
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnus View Post
Though I can fully understand the pride that causes Ashirogi to be so adamant about resisting Nanamine's method, I personally know that there is a glaring, fundamental weakness with that method. I'd run into it when I'd first started doing what I do for a living, and no I'm not a mangaka. The situations just apply the same rules.
Oh, there are plenty of problems. A lot of them stem from the fact the industry's attitude that makes secrecy necessary, but not all of them.

But you could say the same about being chained to an editor you didn't even choose. Sasaki would say otherwise, especially in front of the mangakas, but an editor can drag you down as well as make you soar.

Nanamine's just taking a different gamble, and why not?

What I'm getting at is that while the man's a jerk, his idea deserved better than to be specifically targeted by veterans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post
Because Nanamine's methods both ignore and overlook the relationship between mangaka and editor constructing bonds amongst each other.
Which should be a means, not an end.

Quote:
They are so against it, because I believe is a traditional practice to place both value and respect towards the editors and, moreso, if they are senior than them, although they themselves have experienced many countless times of dissatisfaction, frustration, and disagreement with their editors in the past.

Bakuman is after all adapted from a shounen manga, and shounen manga place importance in the value of bonds and victory gained from both the power of friendship and fighting spirit borned out from selfless self-determination.
Self-determination can be translated as being headstrong, reckless, hot-headed, passionate, proactive, but nonetheless a selfless and generous kind of type.

Now, what I consider evil is for an individual, group, company, or even form of government imposing that their belief is the only unique one for the rest of the world to follow.

In that regard, I do not consider Nanamine falling in that type of evil, because he's not trying to make other mangaka like Ashirogi to impose his ways or views upon them, rather he only wants acknowledgement from them that his method can work and is another way to make manga, though he does so quite arrogantly.

Ashirogi, on the other hand, falls in the stubborn good guy category that only one method, way of life, outlook, practice, or way of doing things makes them able and others to succeed. That is a method or view that has already been established since its inception many ages ago by their elders; what I term the old school fashion.
Except they want to force Nanamine to follow their path, instead of just live and let live.

Quote:
Nanamine's method would be considered evil if he's forcing Kosugi to make him do something illegal which would be harmful for the latter's reputation and morals. However, as of know, he has been brushing off Kosugi aside and thus hurting the latter's pride as an editor. Nevertheless, Kosugi made himself accomplice to Nanamine by not reporting his methods to Jack, because the latter relying upon the help of strangers around the internet while he's contracted to Jack makes him violator of rules concerning breach and leak of information.
And what does Kosugi bring to the table? If Nanamine succeeds, it's a major cap in his hat. If, even if Nanamine followed the conventional way, he failed and had his career broken, the publishers would consider it an acceptable price for Kosugi's education. He'd go on being an editor, paid every month.

And for all that, what has Kosugi done to show he was more than than "the 51st man"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Let me ask you one thing.
If you are so passionate about one thing to the point you sacrificing all your other things to obtain it, then one person comes and say, "Hey, whats the point of your hard work? You can "cheat" it by *insert some lazy means here*"

How is your feeling?
Does it matter? How did craftsmen feel when they were replaced with machines?


Quote:
Nanamine's way is one way to achieve a big hit, but to say, his work has no passion in it. He just want some quick way to gain popularity. He himself doesnt have passion in creating a good manga...
Does it matter, as long as he does create a good manga? Do you think Yoshida gives a good goddamn about Hiramaru's attitude towards his work? No, he just does what it takes to make him draw, no matter how much Hiramaru would rather dick around. Besides, while Nanamine's drive took an unusual turn, he's no less committed than any other character you'd care to name. He puts in the work, both drawing and managing his team of 50 people, and he takes more chances than someone who merely sucks up to the editors. His method is questionable to start with, so if it doesn't create a big hit, he'll be a lot more burned than, say, Shiratori who merely failed to last a year.
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Old 2012-12-18, 05:36   Link #1108
Azuma Denton
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So, the inconsistency shows up as he himself merely copying 50 person's ideas, instead of fusing the 50 person's into his own original idea.

I dont say taking advice from people is bad.
But what Nanamine doing is just i take this and that, then put it in the manga. It has no soul, no passion, and lack of consistency.
When the people starts to question him, yesh, he just told those people to GTFO...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh Minh
Does it matter, as long as he does create a good manga? Do you think Yoshida gives a good goddamn about Hiramaru's attitude towards his work? No, he just does what it takes to make him draw, no matter how much Hiramaru would rather dick around. Besides, while Nanamine's drive took an unusual turn, he's no less committed than any other character you'd care to name. He puts in the work, both drawing and managing his team of 50 people, and he takes more chances than someone who merely sucks up to the editors. His method is questionable to start with, so if it doesn't create a big hit, he'll be a lot more burned than, say, Shiratori who merely failed to last a year.
Does Hiramaru copy other people ideas??
Nanamine even doesnt draw much. He left most of his work to 14 assistants...

Regarding sucking up to editors, does Ashirogi Muto suck up to Hattori? Editor is there to give an opinion about what is trending in the market, what is the best practice in the industry. If you can convince your editor that your manga is interesting, editor would certainly pass it.
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:30   Link #1109
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Nanamine even doesnt draw much. He left most of his work to 14 assistants...
lol, maybe he's closer to being an editor than a mangaka.
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Old 2012-12-19, 02:05   Link #1110
Anh_Minh
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That's just more of his approach of quality through quantity.

His art is generally praised, and that can't come from his assistants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Does Hiramaru copy other people ideas??
Not my point, which was that having a good rapport with the editor, or passion toward your work shouldn't matter. Producing quality work and keeping deadlines does.

Quote:
Regarding sucking up to editors, does Ashirogi Muto suck up to Hattori? Editor is there to give an opinion about what is trending in the market, what is the best practice in the industry. If you can convince your editor that your manga is interesting, editor would certainly pass it.
Maybe "sucking up" is overstating it, but remember the Miura fiasco? If they're told to follow a bad editor, they have to bend over and take it. Nanamine, OTOH, has burned his bridges. If he doesn't succeed, he can't expect a second chance. Even if he succeeds, he may still get fired from Jack when his method gets out, though then he can expect to be picked up by a more adventurous magazine.
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Old 2012-12-22, 12:56   Link #1111
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Final Page 10: Examination and Provocation

This episode repeats more in-depth as to why Ashirogi roars out aloud why Nanamine's method is the wrong path.

In my previous posts, I overlooked one last issue:
- Nanamine creates a manga that he cannot call his own: it doesn't have the passion of being done by a single person's creativity, wit, frustration, and desire. Instead, he relies from strangers' opinions to pick-up ideas from them, then he crams too many ideas into the storyline.

However, Ashirogi raised the topic that it is not outright forbidden to use that kind of method like Nanamine does. Indeed, it isn't depending on the company, but Hattori, who represents Jack, countered that it is; likely, for Jack they value many parameters about the manga, including the author.

Now, I saw how this episode condensed the pacing to focus special emphasis on Ashirogi's challenge to Nanamine's serialization, as well as going in-depth with the group of 50 people providing ideas to Nanamine.

- Foreshadowing for future events later in this arc:
1. Ashirogi declared PCP will get Nanamine's serialization cancelled by 10 weeks.
2. Some or a few individuals from Nanamine's Internet group of 50 left due of protesting against picking a fight with another manga author, Ashirogi.
3. Mashiro thought about Nakai's departure from the previous season, as he lectured Nanamine over the phone that manga's a gamble with every author placing their hopes, pain, and efforts to write manga.... Guessed from me what happens by the end of this episode?
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-12-23, 07:35   Link #1112
ookamigirl
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#12
Spoiler for plot:
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:58   Link #1113
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Episode 12 felt rushed. Wouldn't surprise me if it was. Also good lord, did they go overboard with Nanamine's expressions or what? A bit too much if you ask me.

Spoiler for episode 12:
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Old 2012-12-23, 19:33   Link #1114
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With a little bit of luck that will be the last we see of Nanamine and we won't have to go through another arc of his craziness. The time would be better spent not rushing the other chapters quite so much.

From the previews it looks like they have to deal with both Nakai and a copycat in the same episode. The impression we have been given of Jack is that they don't want any bad publicity, so Ashirogi being connected to criminal activity could be bad news.

Need more Eiji and Hiramaru.
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Old 2012-12-25, 23:24   Link #1115
Guido
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Final Page 11: Impatience and Comeback


Merry Christmas!

On-Topic

I won't go in detail listing all the contents that were cut short from the manga when this episode was adapted from, however, there is one particular scene from the manga that didn't make it:
Spoiler:


I think that scene was excluded, because it would have felt redundant to use it, since towards the end of the episode Kosugi arrived at Ashirogi's office pleading them to compete against Nanamine with the same story, once obtaining permission first from both the editor in chief and Hattori.

BTW, I never thought that Nanamine besides being insane could behave that utterly like a jerk more in the anime than the manga. This episode itself with all unnecesary stuff cut out the pace became so tightened, so it could focus first-hand on Nanamine's psychosis once earning failure after failure and learning PCP keeping its rank intact and ranked higher than his manga.
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Old 2012-12-30, 10:35   Link #1116
ookamigirl
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PCP's got bad exposure 'cause of that copycat crime.
Even though it's continuing those two still felt bad.
Looks like Takagi was impacted by the incident.
Nakai snapped again... It was embarrassing.
When Hiramaru joined the stupidity it kinda went crazy.
Aoki sure is a popular girl.
Takagi's doubts and worries tanked PCP's rankings.
I'm glad they managed to work it out with a great idea for PCP!
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Old 2012-12-30, 13:13   Link #1117
psycho bolt
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I totally forgot the life outside from being a mangaka. It was nice to see that there were no regrets.
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Old 2012-12-30, 13:57   Link #1118
Anh_Minh
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Well, why would there be? Takagi's got a wonderful wife.

And Mashiro, well, to each his own - his romance is going about the way he wants to.
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Old 2012-12-30, 19:02   Link #1119
Guardian Enzo
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He sure doesn't treat his wonderful wife very well, considering how supportive and loyal she is.
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Old 2013-01-04, 14:50   Link #1120
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Just watched episode 8, in all honesty I don't disagree with Nanamine. What he says makes full sense and I see why not? Manga is created in order for people to like it so what is wrong in asking people their opinion and trying to improve it based on it?

Ashirogi Muto themselves planned to base their work on fan letters back in season 2. Following advice blindly is wrong but Nanamine clearly knows how to manipulate those advises. To be fair his story sounds far more entertaining than PCP.

Also editor's and fan advises are not that much different. Editors do it more professionalism but by the end of the day they still are the ones who correct authors and inspire them just like fans.
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