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Old 2012-12-18, 12:27   Link #6681
Sansker
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Well I belive the Hucks will give us a chance to play "Guess Who Will Going to Change Sides by the End" as the Numbers did.

And in SSX they just ask them what they know about the Mirage, and Jail wanted a wine bottle to drink in memory of Due... such memorable character but I digress. The point is that they refuse and so far we never hear of them again.
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Old 2012-12-18, 12:38   Link #6682
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Aki, the 7 episodes I listed out, would pretty much be Force if Tsuzuki had it animated. As I said, 2-4 manga chapters per episode is standard. The only currently running series I could point you to that I watch, is Fairy Tail. You can see for yourself, if you watch that, that it takes 2-4 chapters per episode. What eats up time is talking and exposition; when you take combat from manga and put it into anime, you usually find that you've only used up very little time.
That's why i said "Why aren't you Tsuzuki T-T" the guy don't have a clue about plot economy xDU StrikerS speaked for itself and FORCE is now following a similar route. The 7 Episode chart was your design, not his's.

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So, as I was trying to point out, we're only 7 episodes in. Given what we've learned and established so far (tons of characters, and their motivations and some of their backstories, as well as combat and several plot developments), you just can't call it slow. If this were a weekly anime, I guarantee, you wouldn't be calling it slow at all.
That's what i mean, if we take ONLY the necessary and significant portions of the plot we've only 5 episodes in and we'll already have 2 more episodes of pointless filler. And that's your version ...if Tsuzuki were on command we'll be alredy on Ep 11 with stuff like an entire episode dedicated to the Grendels goofing aroun in jail ...or Sonica and Cypha having a looong conversation while eating in a restaurant or stuff like that (gosh i still remember the long conversations between the forwards at RF6 cafeteria -_-).

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At the very least, it's faster than StrikerS.
...not by much xDU

Somehow i have the feeling Striker would have a very similar pace to FORCE if it were in manga format, in fact, the StrikerS manga chapters felt a bit better made than the anime ones xD (just a bit, some of them still felt slow like the episode about finding the meaning of strenght, the theme of the subject was interesting but the episode itself felt sluggish).

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Well, Jail I am not sure about, but it was stated that the remaining numbers simply refuse to be rehabilitated. In SSX I believe there is yet another plea which they refuse.
That was only true for Sette and maybe Tre (not so sure about her) but Uno and Quattro were too intellectually involved in Jail's operation that they haven't received the same chance (i'm pretty sure Quattro would have "taken" the chance to be freed without second toughts xDU). The younger numbers were manipulated into following orders and that made easier for them to be spared but the older ones had motive and intention to commint their crimes making things legally harder for them. The same will apply to the Hucks, Stella and maybe Arnage can have some parole for being young girls in a dire situation (being infected) but the leading members have higher responsability not only for the crimes they purpousefully commited (specially since they've killed victims that are legally "innocent" and at the very minimum had provoked near-lethal injuries on some notable rank officers) but also for forcing and misguiding minors into cooperating with said crimes.

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In which part did I need a bunch of rejected Looney Tunes villains? That is all. Most of the stuff in Force don’t add to the story and creates filer. Hey, most of the scenes that aren’t related to the plot are just filer and a very boring one at that.
There must be something very bad happening with writing and/or pacing when some people starts finding the "Looney Tunes" villains more appealing than the main plot xDU

GO Carter xD!
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Old 2012-12-18, 14:23   Link #6683
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And by some people you mean you, right? I haven't seen anyone having more than neutral feelings for them.
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Old 2012-12-18, 15:23   Link #6684
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I'd rather have Innocent than Force.
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Old 2012-12-18, 17:29   Link #6685
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Innocent looks more like ViVid if you ask me
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Old 2012-12-18, 19:15   Link #6686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
That's why i said "Why aren't you Tsuzuki T-T" the guy don't have a clue about plot economy xDU StrikerS speaked for itself and FORCE is now following a similar route. The 7 Episode chart was your design, not his's.

That's what i mean, if we take ONLY the necessary and significant portions of the plot we've only 5 episodes in and we'll already have 2 more episodes of pointless filler. And that's your version ...if Tsuzuki were on command we'll be alredy on Ep 11 with stuff like an entire episode dedicated to the Grendels goofing aroun in jail ...or Sonica and Cypha having a looong conversation while eating in a restaurant or stuff like that (gosh i still remember the long conversations between the forwards at RF6 cafeteria -_-).
I suppose I should have been more specific... my 7 episode list would include *everything* written so far. And it was more of an educated guess as to what the producers of a show usually aim for (as I said, 2-4 manga chapters per episode is standard).

And in reply to Justin, I actually like the Hucks. Curren in particular is amusing and fun to watch, just because she's so batty. Somewhat like Jail, she loves what she does, and has no compunctions about any particular course of action. She's smart, knows what she needs to do, and does what is needed to accomplish it. But she also clearly knows her boundaries.

She's kinda like Jail, in a way, who was rather boring early on, and it was only later in StrikerS where he dialed up the ham factor and showed how awesome he is. Curren has simply skipped the boring stage

Although, the Hucks as individuals ride the stereotype archtype line, there is enough there to differentiate them from those cast roles.
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Old 2012-12-18, 19:49   Link #6687
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I meant the Grendels.

Curren is the only one I can imagine making me like her in the future, though. Maybe Fortis, too. All of the rest seem like they're going to run into the Numbers problem: too many villains, not enough development time.
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Old 2012-12-18, 20:37   Link #6688
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The Hucks as a group are average, i mena, they're the stereotypical group of black dressed anti-villains/heroes.

Individually i like Curren just because she have that "no one can mess up with me" aura around her. Veyron because he's the only member of the family who actually needs to put an effort in battle and does it generally well, i hate Fortis for some unexplainable reason ...and the rest are just ok for me (too generic to actually have an opinon about them, Cypha included, my fixation for her it's only because the bias provoked by her actions not her character which is papercut).
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Old 2012-12-18, 21:09   Link #6689
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I think the Hucks, and any other Nanoha villain for that matter, are really bad on their jobs.

I mean they are on the average/bland side of things because most of the time they don’t really have that much of a personality. Jail for once was really boring and chaotic on his motives, actions and overall execution. He is just kind of there but I don’t feel he is that important or impressive. He IS the villain but nothing really comes out from him, maybe because how bland he is.

The Huckebein actually suck as a villain group because they are the generic anti-villain group as Akiyoshi says but even when you come down to each of them there isn’t really anything: Curren is too much like Jail moving between a real badass and a motherly villain she is like Precia and Quattro combine and that is not a good sing. She is better than Jail, but that isn’t saying much. The rest are generic at best .With the Grendel the least I say the better
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Old 2012-12-19, 01:10   Link #6690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
That was only true for Sette and maybe Tre (not so sure about her) but Uno and Quattro were too intellectually involved in Jail's operation that they haven't received the same chance (i'm pretty sure Quattro would have "taken" the chance to be freed without second toughts xDU). The younger numbers were manipulated into following orders and that made easier for them to be spared but the older ones had motive and intention to commint their crimes making things legally harder for them. The same will apply to the Hucks, Stella and maybe Arnage can have some parole for being young girls in a dire situation (being infected) but the leading members have higher responsability not only for the crimes they purpousefully commited (specially since they've killed victims that are legally "innocent" and at the very minimum had provoked near-lethal injuries on some notable rank officers) but also for forcing and misguiding minors into cooperating with said crimes.



There must be something very bad happening with writing and/or pacing when some people starts finding the "Looney Tunes" villains more appealing than the main plot xDU

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I was sure that I read somewhere it was extended the others, but I might have been wrong, anyway my point was the government in Nanoha are VERY forgiving to the point that you can't condemn anyone.

I did say that it would be more difficult with the Hecks, and truth be told I don't expect all of them to make it out of this alive. Heck a kill
Spoiler for Spoilers:
would be a great plot development to make Toma go rouge and get the forces moving, and since there are three factions I expect more than one death might be in the future, so Curren is like the Hecks' casualty, the motivation,the deregulation, the new weapon up grade, her personality, all says kill and assert yourself as the one to beat. Eyepatch probably isn't getting off light,but I don't get the feeling she'd want to. Squall-alike I can't call yet, but if things go like I think, then probably not good for him either. It is up to FORCE to decide if he is a Rival or a Nemesis, right now I think of him as Toma's rival. I typically hate being right. The rest are to stock to care.

You got a problem with Looney Toons?
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Old 2012-12-19, 08:41   Link #6691
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Yes, I'm sure Jail is really bad at his job, just because he manipulated and used the people who created him, and staged a successful attack on the headquarters of dominant military power in the universe. And would have ultimately succeeded, had Nanoha not been as determined or as good as he expected.

Sansker, your trolling is beginning to amuse me. :P
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:05   Link #6692
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And here I was thinking that I wasn’t getting anything out of it. Nice Kaijo.

But yes, I am not trolling and just because Jail get away with his plans means he is a good villain. You see Jail is the common cartoon villain: he is arrogant, he is overconfident, makes assumptions nothing can go wrong with his plans and, shock of all socks, something does go wrong and he ends in jail (Oh, the irony) This isn’t a StrikerS thread so I can’t really talk about Jail here but let me touch on him a little and relate him to the Force manga.

So Jail did made a bunch of things but, why is he so bad to me? First, he fail to perfect the clone technology, that was Precia so he is not that smart for being such a superior being. He has an army of androids yet they all have bad personalities that were part of the reason of their doom, if he is so good: why he didn’t make them like Sette, just quiet killing machines? He manipulates the people that create him? No, was more like those persons didn’t even put a good eye on him and just assume he will be loyal always. There is a difference between being smart and just being surround it by idiots that let you get away with anything, that is what Jail has if you think it well. Attack the main quarters of the TSAB? No, he attack the Mid-Childa base and make sure to not kill even one soldier so they could all get back on his track, hey he had the leaders at his mercy and all he did was talk and then given 15 minutes to go out of the building before he blew it up, if he is so good why he didn’t just send Sein there and launch an bomb to kill most of the TSAB leaders?

Would ultimately succeeded if wasn’t for Nanoha? No, Nanoha didn’t even talk to the guy once or was interesting on him at all. Was Fate the one who stop him, while he was sure she will work with him because... he said it. I mean when he was trying to manipulate Fate, no for one single moment you could buy what he says and he didn’t even offer any kind of temptation, still acting as he had one. Sure such a great villain. He was even so kind to put his name on his drones. And no, sorry, but that is plot convenience because they never show any other evidence that he was behind it, we just go with the name so that was how Fate was sure it was him. So yes… such legendary villain (Sarcasm)

How this is related to Force? Well, the new villains aren’t any better. The Hückebein are moving the grey area and coming as not bad at all while the Grendel are stuck on the comic relief villains who can’t be really redeem because they are so idiots. Hardis… lacks anything, a motive, a personality or even an interesting design and so far he is just there. I can’t agree with you and that is all, I am not trolling.
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:11   Link #6693
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Jail would have succeeded, because if Nanoha hadn't of stopped Vivio, the Cradle would have risen to a point where it was invincible. Oh, I suppose Vita was crucial, too. But he had crazy backup plans... even if Fate captured him, as long as Quattro was around, he would have been reborn. You'd think having 12 backup plans would be overdoing it, but that's what Crazy Prepared gets you.

The Hucks have shown both competence and smarts, too. Knowing when to fight and when not to.

Now Fate in S1, was a pretty bad antagonist. Her and her mother were fairly cliche, and she ignores Arf, who has been there for her the entire time. But, all you need to do is take a vulnerable moe girl and toss horrible things at her, to make fans mindlessly adore her. Gotta trigger the kicked puppy syndrome.
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:29   Link #6694
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Agree on Fate but only a little. You see I did enjoy Nanoha and Fate’s interaction more than Jail being just showing his face as an evil villain that nobody, but Fate, really get to actually dislike. In no point Nanoha and Jail talk, exchange any attack or be in the same scene at the same time. And when the main villain and the main heroine don’t even share a moment is not what I call good antagonism. Jail was just there and he never shows up anything but an annoying self. Most of the times his plans get to large steps because the rest of the characters were too busy doing other things or just ignore him at all, as I just said. He did have 12 backups but he didn’t make sure they were all away from him. He put 3 on Teana, 2 with himself and the rest? Why he didn’t just put a hidden clone of himself in a far away base and not in his already know cyborgs, I mean if the good guys didn’t even know about him this might actually work. Again “talk-too-much-villain” one of the most old and overuse clichés of villainy.

The Hückebein… maybe they can be a little competent but they suffer from having such characters as Arnage and Stella. A cute little girl with no signs of malice and a glutton that just eat away anything isn’t really what I call good villains. And I still consider they could just kill SD6 and take Thoma. Hey in fact Veyron leaving Thoma with Isis the first time was really not a good idea. Again plot convenience and yes, I know what you could bring up, but keep in mind this: they have the most precious treasure nearby, I think is worth taking some risks here. So they don’t even show good fighting because they are absurdly overpowering the main characters, just look at Cypha. So is not fair when you can just go down and walk trough anything the launch at you out of simple “because I can”. I mean, yes, sometimes a villain like that is good, but if you have an entire army of villains like that it becomes pointless to even try. And Cypha is far too powerful, how is anyone going to ever beat her up… oh, wait, later on Signum does it… ups.

So to me the Hucks aren’t that good villains or characters either. I mean they are kind of ok, but in the end I think they do lack a better motivation and terrible comic relief moments from all of them but DeVille and Veyron.
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:50   Link #6695
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Hucks are better than Fate. There's a reason S1 is panned as the worst of the three seasons by many.
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:54   Link #6696
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Because it takes about four episodes to get interesting in a 13 episode show.
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:59   Link #6697
Sansker
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Well for that matter StrikerS is also consider bad for a lot of people. And no, Fate is better than the Hucks. Even if just a matter of popularity or perhaps because if it is actually a matter of popularity. So no, that argument will never last long. And to be fair Nanoha isn’t a great show because if its plot.
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Old 2012-12-19, 13:43   Link #6698
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About Jail, i don't think he's a bad villain per se ...but he's isn't a terribly good villain either, he's almost like a parody of the "Evil Mastermind" archetype, he tries to be epic but ends up being goofy (his maniacal laughs take some chuckles aout of me instead of awe), at least the way Fate beats him was absolutely hillarious (HOME RUN XD!). Sansker do have a point, Jail's seemingly sucess was less the resul of his suppossed genius and more the result of the heroes having the idiot ball hard pressed on them. Having it's name put on his creations should be one of the lamest ways to introduce a villain on a story (okay, i still hate they stripped Signum of her awesomeness in FORCE but at least the Hucks tried to leave a strong impression on the reader xDU) ...while Jail just sort of appears in the story xDU

His plans are amusing enough to not break the suspension of disbelief but those as also his countermeasures rely too much on specific conditions and outside interference and hence ...are weak countermeasures because he didn't even make sure the conditions for his success are solidly set (as Sansker pointed out, he just assumend everything will go as he planned out because ...he's a genius i guess, he wears a lab coat so he must be super intelligent right? xDU).

I find fun people defends Jail onthis when they are so harsh on Curren who by this point have shown far more competency and smarts than him. Curren cackles like a Villain to shoo discourage people from fighting her but when she wants to get close to someone knows how to pull the emotional triggers and leaves the scene with very good timing to leave an impression on her target and give time for said impression to affect it's mind. She's a dastardly evil bitch but that doesn't change the fact she's one of the greatest leaders in the Nanohaverse (so far more competent and proactive than Jail, Hayate and Lindy).

Quote:
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Hucks are better than Fate. There's a reason S1 is panned as the worst of the three seasons by many.
And there was poor me here thinking StrikerS was widely considered the worst of the bunch xD

Oh...and don't forget the ignored people who solidly consider FORCE the worst of the four seasons for that matter xD

...on that note, i am the only one who goes back an re-watched Season One to rediscover it's charm o.o? ..i did it some time ago (like half a year) and i found it quite entertaining and memorable. It took my mind away from the unecessary complexity of StrikerS and the clumsy execution of FORCE, for a good couple of hours. It was very refreshing n_n (Arisaaaaaa xD!).
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Old 2012-12-19, 14:00   Link #6699
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Actually if sales are any indication of popularity or initial interest, didn't StrikerS have the best sales among the three seasons? It's not a sign of overall quality, no (if SEED Destiny is ANY indication), but that does show how many people were interested in that particular season.
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Old 2012-12-19, 14:01   Link #6700
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Becayse they were hyped by A's xDU
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