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Old 2012-12-19, 22:38   Link #801
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I don't know of any gun owner that has fear.
Vigiiance, yes.
Fear, no.
Anger about how we are treated?
Yes.
Fear, no.
Frustration at the media and politicians for lying through their damn teeth about this issue?
Yes.
Fear. no.
Tired of having to listen to people who want someone else to protect them when the responsibility lies with the individual?
Yes.
Fear. no.
]
I know you are trying to defend your right to bear arms and all that jazz, and for the most part much of what you have written is understandable and acceptable (though a little too loose with the language) but you are digging your own hole with this rhetoric. "I don't buy firearms out of fear...I buy them out of ANGER!!! and FRUSTRATION!!!". Sorry, but you sound a little crazed. Maybe you should step back and try and reword some of this, because besides independence and to a lesser extent vigilance (which is many times actually rooted in some form of fear), your word choice is fairly scary and does nothing for your case.

That being said, can we get off the "Civil War 2013 (BYOG)" bandwagon. We're not going to have a civil war over an assault rifle ban and trying to use the fear of such a horrific event in this discussion does nothing but makes anyone using the argument look silly.
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Old 2012-12-19, 22:39   Link #802
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Old 2012-12-19, 22:51   Link #803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Frankly I didn't even know Obama was even going to touch gun laws until this morning. I expected it to be a political hot potato that no one wanted to deal with. The fact that Obama even bring it up at all was a surprise to me. I mean, it's not like Americans haven't been used to school shootings by now. Dead children has been accepted politically, so I thought.
So how does it feel to insert so much misguided cynicism, blatant generalizations, appeals to emotion, and general strawman in your statement? It's amazing how many logical fallacies you can cram in a few sentences. If Americans didn't care about dead children, they wouldn't even be considering this issue

I understand the U.S. is a screwed up country that frequently doesn't run on logic, but I don't get your point since this is precisely that kind of overly emotional black and white viewpoint that's filled to the brim with rhetoric that doesn't help towards logical discourse. Can we not go on the "think of the children!" philosophy, because that leads to another road of disaster?
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Old 2012-12-19, 22:56   Link #804
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Biden is in charge of this? SERIOUSLY?! This ought to be a hoot!
And I imagine several cases of beer were delivered to the VPs residence as well!
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Old 2012-12-19, 22:59   Link #805
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
At some point no matter how tragic, if it happens often enough it becomes routine.

Has there ever NOT been a mass school shooting during a President's term?
The first school shooting/massacre in North America was in 1764, before there even was a United States.
It's been happening here for a very long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I know you are trying to defend your right to bear arms and all that jazz, and for the most part much of what you have written is understandable and acceptable (though a little too loose with the language) but you are digging your own hole with this rhetoric. "I don't buy firearms out of fear...I buy them out of ANGER!!! and FRUSTRATION!!!". Sorry, but you sound a little crazed. Maybe you should step back and try and reword some of this, because besides independence and to a lesser extent vigilance (which is many times actually rooted in some form of fear), your word choice is fairly scary and does nothing for your case.
That BS James and you know it.
Piers Morgan is sounding like a raving idiot for the past few days.
You think he's a little crazed?
I'm pissed off, and have every right to be.
I'm being told that an "assault weapon" ban is going to prevent another CT shooting when in fact Connecticut already has that ban in place for the last 18 years.
Of course I'm angry and frustrated about this, what sane person wouldn't be?

Put another way.
Law abiding gun owners feel like Mr. Wordsworth, and have for decades:



Gun owners know how to lessen these school shootings, and it is infuriating that the one thing that will do nothing to stop the next shooting from happening is the very thing the Democrats, and now Obama, are pushing for.

Quote:
That being said, can we get off the "Civil War 2013 (BYOG)" bandwagon. We're not going to have a civil war over an assault rifle ban and trying to use the fear of such a horrific event in this discussion does nothing but makes anyone using the argument look silly.
James, I don't think you understand how serious people are about not obeying another ban.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:05   Link #806
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I haven't read through this entire thread, but I'm just going to say that I don't believe guns should be allowed in the United States to the average joe. There just seems to be more bad occurrences happening in the contexts of murders, suicide, and people just using guns irresponsibly in general.

And for the people that advocate protection for one's family, well, tell that to the people's who's loved ones got their heads blown off from some loon that had easy access to a gun. Get a dog. Buy a sophisticated security system.

Just seems like the bad is outweighing the good here.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:06   Link #807
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
James, I don't think you understand how serious people are about not obeying another ban.
Of course. The entire point is to prepare for an apocalypse. But once you are prepared, it would be silly if it doesn't happen.

I find it interesting that those who want to defend themselves from the military, do NOT support de-funding the military.

What is the point of trying to protect your guns when you deliberately let the army have bigger toys? Wouldn't it be more effective to weaken the military as well?

I am serious. What is the logic of keeping the military strong, if you don't trust that they wouldn't betray you? Surely a stronger military just makes an organised militia harder to survive?

Right now, those who want to blow up the white house would get a hellfire missile to the face from a Predator. You CAN'T rebel against the US military, it can't be done. And it is because the GOP refused to think "small government" included a smaller military.

Quote:
Can we not go on the "think of the children!" philosophy, because that leads to another road of disaster?
You seem to be confused. I am merely stating the fact that there had always been school shootings in America, and that this one is no different from any other. There is no point pretending this is some special event; we have the Internet now, and thus able to look back and realised that this happens all the time.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:09   Link #808
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It wasn't all that long ago that Commonwealth countries had guns around more commonly. The ban in Australia for instance I think was 1996, and the UK was around the same time if I recall.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:17   Link #809
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Of course. The entire point is to prepare for an apocalypse. But once you are prepared, it would be silly if it doesn't happen.

I find it interesting that those who want to defend themselves from the military, do NOT support de-funding the military.

What is the point of trying to protect your guns when you deliberately let the army have bigger toys? Wouldn't it be more effective to weaken the military as well?

I am serious. What is the logic of keeping the military strong, if you don't trust that they wouldn't betray you? Surely a stronger military just makes an organised militia harder to survive?

Right now, those who want to blow up the white house would get a hellfire missile to the face from a Predator. You CAN'T rebel against the US military, it can't be done. And it is because the GOP refused to think "small government" included a smaller military.

You seem to be confused. I am merely stating the fact that there had always been school shootings in America, and that this one is no different from any other. There is no point pretending this is some special event; we have the Internet now, and thus able to look back and realised that this happens all the time.
I have always been an advocate of downsizing the military, so you're barking up the wrong tree/making the wrong argument.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:19   Link #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You seem to be confused. I am merely stating the fact that there had always been school shootings in America, and that this one is no different from any other. There is no point pretending this is some special event; we have the Internet now, and thus able to look back and realised that this happens all the time.
Am I? You're the one that said:

Quote:
Dead children has been accepted politically, so I thought.
Then again such a bizzare leap of logic does have me confused.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:19   Link #811
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I have always been an advocate of downsizing the military, so you're barking up the wrong tree/making the wrong argument.
Well the fact is the pro-gun party is also pro-army. Where you personally stand doesn't change that.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:22   Link #812
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The Army and to some extent the Marines can be downsized sigificantly. The Air Force and Navy are the current means of defense against outside forces.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:23   Link #813
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Well the fact is the pro-gun party is also pro-army. Where you personally stand doesn't change that.
You need to read up on Libertarians.
We as a party are not pro-war/army.

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:27   Link #814
james0246
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post

That BS James and you know it.
And waving your gun in the air and screaming about how angry you are is the most reasonable solution . Your words (and possible actions) only reinforces the stereotypes you are trying to combat.

Btw, what does a former member of Britain's Got Talent have to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
James, I don't think you understand how serious people are about not obeying another ban.
GF I think you are being redonkulous. Frankly you are just trying to use fear to control the discussion.

If this is an issue of rights and civil liberties, then argue as such and leave useless fearmongering alone. Threatening the extinction of everything does not help your argument. Frankly your current language and disposition is getting worrisome. Please calm down.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:27   Link #815
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Am I? You're the one that said:



Then again such a bizzare leap of logic does have me confused.
Just because I mention children doesn't mean I meant to invoke anything. Personally I find it silly to consider killing children worse than killing innocent adults.

You do have to forgive me. I sometimes make several logical deductions before posting the conclusion, but not posting the process that lead me to that conclusion.

Here is where I stand; up to now, nothing real was done after each and every school shooting that occur in pretty much every president's term. The fact that nothing was done so far, gave me the impression that the deaths are okay. That they are only worth temporary outrage, but that no one truly think it is worth changing laws over it.

You can say Americans care. You can say it as much as you want. But history told us that as soon as the public move on to the next piece of news, all the gun talk get shelved. NOTHING changes. School shootings are about as politically short term as the yearly forest fire in California.

We are yet to see if Obama is serious, or is he trying to bargain for something.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:36   Link #816
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Just because I mention children doesn't mean I meant to invoke anything. Personally I find it silly to consider killing children worse than killing innocent adults.
Well, that's an interesting assertion, since school shootings are a small part of the deaths each year, but people get killed to random violence every day. Surely, the first idea makes the headlines, but is that really what we should base policy after?
Quote:
You do have to forgive me. I sometimes make several logical deductions before posting the conclusion, but not posting the process that lead me to that conclusion.

Here is where I stand; up to now, nothing real was done after each and every school shooting that occur in pretty much every president's term. The fact that not thing was done so far, gave me the impression that the deaths are okay. That they are only worth temporary outrage, but that no one truly think it is worth changing laws over it.
Define nothing. This took me 5 seconds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbi...re#Gun_control

Quote:
Though laws were passed that made it a crime to buy guns for criminals and minors, there was considerable controversy over legislation pertaining to background checks at gun shows.
Sounds pretty big to me even if hardly adequate. Just because legislation doesn't pass doesn't mean nothing was done. And why are you using president's terms to define things anyways? The President has only so much power.

Quote:
You can say Americans care. You can say it as much as you want. But history told us that as soon as the public move on to the next piece of news, all the gun talk get shelved. NOTHING changes. School shootings are about as politically short term as the yearly forest fire in California.
Well, about shortsightedness I can give you that.
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Old 2012-12-19, 23:44   Link #817
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
And waving your gun in the air and screaming about how angry you are is the most reasonable solution . Your words (and possible actions) only reinforces the stereotypes you are trying to combat.
No one is waving any guns anywhere and you know it.
The best solution to this problem is what Israeli did after the Ma'alot massacre in 1974.
They didn't have another school shooting until 2008, and that shooting was stopped by two men with their private arms that were visiting the school.

I've already shown in this thread how an armed individual is the only way to stop an active shooter.

Quote:
Btw, what does a former member of Britain's Got Talent have to do with anything?
James, you know what the point is.
Pierce is flipping out about this.
Though he made some pretty stupid comments on Twitter after this shooting.
I don't care if he was being sarcastic.
What he said was not acceptable.

Quote:
GF I think you are being redonkulous. Frankly you are just trying to use fear to control the discussion.

If this is an issue of rightss and civil liberties, then argue as such and leave useless fearmongering alone. Threatening the extinction of everything does not help your argument.
No, I'm telling you what I already know to be the case.
What do you think caused the rise of the militia movement of the 1990s?
Why do you think Oaklahoma city happened?
I know for a FACT, that the illegal manufacter of "pre-ban" weapons was not only going on after the ban in 1994, but that it got so bad that BATF started allowing the "10 or less" parts rule to allow for the assembly of militia weapons again.
They also allowed for "replacement magazine bodies" to be sold for magazines greater than 10 rounds because people were making them.

This time around, Dianne and co. aren't talking about a simple ban, they're talking about illegalizing them.
That's not the same weapon ban as before.
If they attempt to call for these arms to be turned in I've no doubt it will be a blood bath.
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Old 2012-12-20, 00:38   Link #818
james0246
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No one is waving any guns anywhere and you know it.
You seem to have completely missed the point, so let me simplify the matter: Your rhetoric is atrocious, and your entire argument(s) is failing (and flailing) because of it. Monir opined that Fear was the lead cause of gun proliferation, and your immediate response wasn't to logically or factual disprove him (something that honestly can't legitimately be done since fear is a motivating factor, just not the only factor), instead you go full throttle and announce that Anger and Frustration were the keys to Gun proliferation (even the reason you own and wish to own a gun). Do you not realize how insane that sounds? How demeaning it is to your entire stance? You've stopped arguing for your civil liberties and instead have started becoming violent. You are destroying the very argument you wish to make by sounding like a crazed individual with a thirst for violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
James, you know what the point is.
Pierce is flipping out about this.
Again with this guy. Why do you keep quoting a blow-hard that is paid to be insane? Anything the likes of Bob Riley, Sebastien Hayes, Conrad Oberman (or whatever the crazed pundits names are) say is irrelevant and ultimately uninteresting to anything. They are paid to produce fear and to cause strife. Stop quoting them as if they are a source for anything but decline.
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Old 2012-12-20, 00:56   Link #819
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You seem to have completely missed the point, so let me simplify the matter.
If you want to get THAT technical, then fear is the motivator on all sides of this issue.
Can't tell me that the gun control crowd isn't freaking out for any other reason than fear.
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Old 2012-12-20, 01:25   Link #820
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When one side is playing parlor psychology (gun ownership = fear), the other side is quite likely to be upset about it when they *are* providing factual data. It works both ways.
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