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View Poll Results: Chuunibyou Demo Koi ga Shitai! - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 33 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 31 31.31%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 20.20%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 2.02%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.01%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.01%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.02%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-18, 05:37   Link #161
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Funny how you use that as an example of how chunnibiyou brings Rikka happiness, when that smile was a result of Rikka meeting the class average in math and saving her club as a result of Yuuta and her combined efforts.
Funny how you raise this point while paying little respect to what Yuuta used as the main motivating factor (when all else failed) to successfully motivate Rikka to study enough to pass that Math test.

He used a direct appeal to her chuunibyou tendencies. Later on, we see him come through on what he had promised Rikka in return for her successfully saving the club via Math test performance. Then Rikka smiled again, in a smile that was probably even more euphoric than the avatar image I put up


Quote:
In other words, this was Rikka being happy about a real accomplishment.
That's not all she was happy about. She was also happy about the anticipation of Yuuta making good on what he had promised her. And what he had promised her relates directly to her chuunibyou.


Quote:
There's a difference between being natural and being rationally correct. Humans are naturally capable of many things that may not be morally proper to do.
And what's "morally improper" about engaging in some degree of compartmentalization in one's life? Is it "morally improper" to have some elements of yourself that you keep private from friends? Does good morality require us to share everything with our friends?

My real world analogy is perfectly fine.


Quote:
And how many people do not move on from a significant loss? Your rhetorical question is not valid when there are plenty who are not living happily after a traumatic event.
My question was valid. You don't need universality to demonstrate what tends to be the case. Of course there are exceptions, but few courses of actions in life have guaranteed, 100% success rates.


Quote:
As circular as this sounds, the key to having a good support structure is that it actually does... you know, support, as the name states.

Every little bit of happiness you seem to attribute to Rikka's chuunibiyou, especially the bit where she was happy after the test, you don't seem to recognize that part where Yuuta made an effort to keep her in check and ground her in reality.
Yuuta wasn't involved in every little bit of happiness that was connected to Rikka's chuunibyou. Some of that happiness was tied more to Dekomori.

Yuuta deserves a lot of credit, to be sure, but I honestly think you're starting to overstate it now.


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The above mentioned avatar was when she passed a test on a subject she was the least proficient in. Even, if you could argue that it was not so much about her efforts paying off as it is about the rewards, even the rewards are more realistic than finding the Horizon or defeating some fantasy villian. Rikka gets to change and exchange contact info with the boy she is most interested in.
And why is she interested in that boy?


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She gets to save her club that she made.
And why did she make that club? And what was the club for?


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Then there's officially entering a relationship with the guy she loves.
And why does she love that guy?


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These are all realistic consequences that made Rikka happy,
And like it or not, they all are inextricably tired to chuunibyou. Chuunibyou may not account for everything happy in these three, but it is a integral element in each.

Rikka likely would never have even noticed Yuuta if not for his "Dark Flame Master" acting out.


Quote:
and yet you seem to believe that letting her have her way with her chuuni fantasies like a child playing with a sharp object he thinks is a toy instead of stopping him is the way to happiness.
If you're seriously concerned about people using potentially dangerous objects as toys, the first person you should talk to is Touka, frankly.


Quote:

The club is fine. Playing fantasy on her own free time is fine. Even pretending that it was your magic powers that opened the train doors is fine.
However, playing around and dropping flour for visual effect when the teacher only allowed you to have a club when the room was cleaned is not fine. Drawing pictures and fantasizing when you're supposed to be doing algebra problems to save your own club is not fine.
Sure. I'm not saying that some moderation shouldn't be practiced here. In fact, supporting moderation is a big part of the reason why I've taking the position I have on this thread. Rikka has gone from one extreme to the other (and this is not the first post I've wrote these exact words in). And what I've said (and continue to say) is that a more moderate path than either extreme is the best path to take.


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There are clearly times where Yuuta should not just play along. When it comes to meeting Rikka's mother who is not nearly as harsh as Touka or their grandfather, I don't see why it's wrong for Yuuta to make Rikka stop playing around, even just for those moments.
Just for those moments, sure.

Here's one problem, though - We don't know exactly what Yuuta shouted at Rikka. And I think that's partly why this debate we're in has a touch of confusion to it. Given the extreme Rikka has gone to since that event, I'm inclined to think that Yuuta shouted something much stronger than "Rikka, you have to start acting normal more often! Especially around your family!"

But then again, we don't know exactly what he shouted. Perhaps you think he didn't say anything terribly harsh. As for me, I don't know, but I do know that Rikka's reaction to it has been dramatic, and pretty extreme. It doesn't seem to me like Yuuta gave Rikka any leeway for even occasional embracing of chuunibyou.


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What I find ridiculous is how you're so sensitive to an analogy...
I'm "sensitive" to the analogy because I know alcoholics in real life, and those people have far more severe problems than Rikka does. And there is no physiological component to what Rikka is going through. Rikka is not destroying important internal organs through her chuunibyou, and nor is she puking her guts out and enduring physically torturous withdrawal symptoms because she's gone cold turkey on chuunibyou.

Comparing Rikka's condition to something that drastically effects the body itself (such as alcoholism or heroine addiction) is simply absurd. It is an highly improper analogy. The only thing ridiculous is people actually insisting on such a horrible analogy.


Quote:
What's hard to support is the fact that despite saying you support a "rehabilitated format", you don't really show much support for rehabilitating measures.
Well, such measures are obvious. Yes, Rikka needs to stop thinking that the Unseen Horizon is a real place that you can actually reach somehow. She needs to accept that her father is dead. And she needs to learn that specific sorts of chuunibyou activities crosses the line (as you pointed out). She needs to learn to distinguish between situations where acting chuunibyou is find, and other situations where it's not (as I pointed out long before on this thread).


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All I advocate is that Rikka needs to stop trying to find her father in the Unseen Horizon, and that Yuuta should stop her if she does. If she wants to have fantasy battles with Dekomori in the clubroom, that's fine. If she wants to run off to find the Horizon or her old home that's located miles away and leave behind her other friends, Yuuta needs to stop her, not play along.
Then we're in complete agreement here.


Quote:

Rikka can have her chuunibiyou in the right place at the right time. Going back to where Rikka would play around making a mess of the club room or the swimming pool they were ordered to clean is not the right place or the right time.
Why do you place all the blame for the mess at the swimming pool on Rikka? The Shinka/Dekomori squabbles were arguably the main reason that became such a mess. Rikka shouldn't bear responsibility for that.


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Yuuta told Rikka to stop in order for her to face her mother.
Actually, like I wrote before, we don't know what Yuuta shouted at Rikka. Are people now starting to see why I didn't like how the anime played this?


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You keep using real world examples that have entirely different contexts from Rikka's situation.
I didn't bring up LARPers. Random32 did. I merely responded to what he brought up. If you don't like that real world analogy then bring it up with him.


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Rikka has a problem with her "off switch". This has been established.
It's also been a core part of my argument this entire thread.

I've always felt that Rikka needed an "off switch". I felt that way even before this show turned dramatic.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-12-18 at 05:49.
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Old 2012-12-18, 07:30   Link #162
Liddo-kun
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Feel a little sorry for Deko-chan. Though I guess she has to face reality sooner or later.
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Old 2012-12-18, 07:43   Link #163
Goggen
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Feel a little sorry for Deko-chan. Though I guess she has to face reality sooner or later.
Not like this. Chuunibyou isn't an actual sickness or some undesired mental condition, it's a phase of childhood that you grow out of naturally. That's why all this "force them to face reality" stuff is needlessly harsh and unwarranted.
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Old 2012-12-18, 19:25   Link #164
Elestia
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
My impression was that you think Rikka's chuunibyou was relatively problem-free (apart from the family issue) because of the lack of scenes directly showing that she got in trouble (for example, bullied). So I tried to argue using the quote that the absent of such scenes is the stuff's intention to make the tone lighter, not necessary because they want to make them actually absent from the story. If I misunderstand, please accept my apology.
No, you are pretty much correct. We are talking about whether the problem exists but is absent, or whether it does not exist thereby making it absent. So if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck chances are that is is indeed a duck, that is where you'll find me. It is much harder to argue the opposite, hence I invoke Occam's Razor.

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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
It would be hard for me to suggest a specific scenes showing that her delusional behavior escalated. It is an impression I have over several scenes when her family is involved. If pressed, I'd say that Rikka repeatedly insists "It exists" much, much longer when it concerns her family issue indicated such. She really lacks the off-switch at those time. Rikka usually drops it fairly quickly if her fantasy do not benefit her in other situations, such as when she tried to play a double personalities.
I think anyone who was being backed into an emotional corner would cause anyone to have an outburst like that. It doesn't necessarily mean that her chuuninbyou has gotten worse. In the train ride scene, we even have Rikka asking Yuuta how his "Dark Flame Master" powers arose. This to me is the strongest indication that she is actually able to reflect on her own lifestyle and by asking Yuuta about how his own chuuninbyou started, it points to how normal she actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
The thing about whose-fault-is-it question is that I think the most logical conclusion, given the little we know about her mother, is we don't know enough. My current impression is that Rikka equally share the blame with everyone around her. However, that is not the only scenario I can think of to satisfy all known information.

(Please allow me to make a reference to one of my favorite stories)
THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

Yes, I just want to say it.
Indeed, but that has never stopped anyone on the forums from speculating or making conjectures. Piecing together clues, hints, or references is what makes for much of the fun to be had in these kinds of discussions. And, based on that framework the amount of information given to us leads me to the conclusion that Rikka's behavior is blown out of proportion. Blaming Rikka's chuuninbyou as the main factor for her family's problem is silly. Saying that just because the show didn't show scenes, characters talk about it, or hint at a more serious problems is proof enough that is does exist which I find boggling to comprehend.

To conclude my position, I'll add a relevant quote as well.

Quote:
The simplest explanation is often the correct one.
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Last edited by Elestia; 2012-12-18 at 20:09.
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Old 2012-12-19, 00:17   Link #165
Hyper
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
No, you are pretty much correct. We are talking about whether the problem exists but is absent, or whether it does not exist thereby making it absent. So if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck chances are that is is indeed a duck, that is where you'll find me. It is much harder to argue the opposite, hence I invoke Occam's Razor.

I think anyone who was being backed into an emotional corner would cause anyone to have an outburst like that. It doesn't necessarily mean that her chuuninbyou has gotten worse. In the train ride scene, we even have Rikka asking Yuuta how his "Dark Flame Master" powers arose. This to me is the strongest indication that she is actually able to reflect on her own lifestyle and by asking Yuuta about how his own chuuninbyou started, it points to how normal she actually is.

Indeed, but that has never stopped anyone on the forums from speculating or making conjectures. Piecing together clues, hints, or references is what makes for much of the fun to be had in these kinds of discussions. And, based on that framework the amount of information given to us leads me to the conclusion that Rikka's behavior is blown out of proportion. Blaming Rikka's chuuninbyou as the main factor for her family's problem is silly. Saying that just because the show didn't show scenes, characters talk about it, or hint at a more serious problems is proof enough that is does exist which I find boggling to comprehend.
First, if I understand the word "absent" correctly (English is not my native language as you probably guessed), I think I'd change the statement to "whether the problem exists but is hidden, or whether it does not exist thereby making it absent."

The problem I has with saying that Rikka has no trouble with her chuunibyou behavior is similar to what you has trouble with saying Rikka is the main factor for her family's problem, I believe. The lack of proofs denying its existence does not imply it does exist. Well, it's slightly different. Here would be "The lack of proofs for its existence does not imply it does not exist." In my view, the analogy would be "I have never hears it quacks. I have never seen it walks, and I have never seen its whole body." Is it possible that it is not a duck? Yes. Would I conclude that it is not a duck? Not yet.

You raise a good point, though. Speculating is part of the fun. I guess I comes from the point of view that unless the competing theories can be eliminated, I should not argue for my preferred theory. And right now I still cannot eliminate other possibilities.

On another topic, I found that fact that Rikka falling back to her chuunibyou fantasy as the last line of defense when cornered emotionally is precisely the problem. Get rid of that practice and she's good to go. Using the phase "her chuunibyou get worse" is a bad choice on my part. In the train scene, I agree that she was normal, but that was because all of her family-problem-catalysts (hometown, grandparents, Touka, etc.) were already out of sight.

Last edited by Hyper; 2012-12-19 at 00:18. Reason: No -> Not yet
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Old 2012-12-19, 16:22   Link #166
Elestia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
First, if I understand the word "absent" correctly (English is not my native language as you probably guessed), I think I'd change the statement to "whether the problem exists but is hidden, or whether it does not exist thereby making it absent."

The problem I has with saying that Rikka has no trouble with her chuunibyou behavior is similar to what you has trouble with saying Rikka is the main factor for her family's problem, I believe. The lack of proofs denying its existence does not imply it does exist. Well, it's slightly different. Here would be "The lack of proofs for its existence does not imply it does not exist." In my view, the analogy would be "I have never hears it quacks. I have never seen it walks, and I have never seen its whole body." Is it possible that it is not a duck? Yes. Would I conclude that it is not a duck? Not yet.
The reason I bring up the word absent is that very few people have brought up scenes or dialogue that supports the theory that Rikka's chuuninbyou is actually a crippling delusion that grips her family and school life. I feel a great deal of supporters that claim that position often project their feelings into the discussions that have no bearing whatsoever to what is occurring in the anime itself. Hence, the reason why I often bring up existing scenes that support my theory that only her family problems is the real crux of the issue.
Quote:
You raise a good point, though. Speculating is part of the fun. I guess I comes from the point of view that unless the competing theories can be eliminated, I should not argue for my preferred theory. And right now I still cannot eliminate other possibilities.
This is why when no agreement can be found between different theories, I often adopt an Occam's Razor approach. Going by what we know, rather than what we do not know.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:20   Link #167
Hyper
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
This is why when no agreement can be found between different theories, I often adopt an Occam's Razor approach. Going by what we know, rather than what we do not know.
I also prefer simpler theories, but I think yours and the opposite theories need roughly equal number of assumptions, hence the same complexity. Now the last episode is out, I think I will just go find out.
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Old 2013-01-01, 15:07   Link #168
Akka
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Just saw the ep, and I'm honestly surprised it started such a debate. I thought it was going down to more "meh" - personnally, I found it painfully melodramatic.

I think the core problem is that the serie is firmly rooted in "anime world" on one side (the hilarious slapstick, the way the weirdness of people, despite being the main subject of the show, are still MUCH more tolerated than they would be in real life, etc.), but also attempt to grab a "realist" one on the other side.
As such, there is a conflict on the actual degree of gravity we are supposed to perceive the chuunbyou problem :

Are we supposed to evaluate the seriousness with the criteria of anime-land (where it's rather funny, full of anthics and the like), in which case some might see the attempts to push Rikka out of her delusions as cruel and oppressively formatting ?

Or are we supposed to evaluate the seriousness with the criteria of actual real life (where someone who has spent years in complete delusion is NO JOKE AT ALL and is in fact the case of a VERY SERIOUS mental problem), in which case dragging Rikka out of her fantasy is the only responsible thing to do, even though it will very obviously be very painful for her at first.

The anime gives constantly conflicting messages about it. It's using both anime-land and reality criteria in several instances.

And anyway, despite this, it seems very obvious that Rikka situation, even in anime-land, is very serious. If she's so lifeless now, it's rather a proof that her delusions have eaten her real personality, and kicking her out of them is more exposing the damage already done than really breaking her. It was hard to feel bad because I felt like the episode tried to make me think "see, she's unhappy, she really need to have her delirium back, it was a mistake to remove it from her", while what I felt was more "look at how broken she is now after years of being eaten by her delirium".

It's a bit like if the episode shown someone being pushed to quit on smoking, being cranky and irritable, and attempting to make me feel "look at how much nicer he was when he was smoking, it's cruel to deprive him of his cigarette, hopefully he'll start again for the final".
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Old 2013-01-11, 02:47   Link #169
Kyuu
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Seeing Dekomori cry here -- it made me smile.
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