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Old 2012-12-20, 01:30   Link #1
Kairin
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Sword Art Online - Character Discussion - Kayaba Akihiko

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Kayaba Akihiko related.
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Old 2012-12-20, 05:46   Link #2
Oroboro
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Let's see... disregarding the morality discussion which promoted the creation of this thread in the first place... what does everyone think about what makes Kayaba tick?

Character Analysis Go!

Disclaimer: I am a novel reader, although a fairly forgetful one. I'm fairly certain everything below is just speculation based on what's given to us in the anime.
Spoiler for Kayaba Analysis:
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Old 2012-12-20, 12:47   Link #3
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That, I ultimately believe was Kayaba's wish. To create a world which could stand as an equal to reality. And sadly, making it a forced death game is literally the only way it could be possible.
So forcing thousands of people without approval, consent or perceived knowledge into a death game which they have no control over all for the sake of Kayaba's whimsical desire to create a new world? A new era? Seems incredibly blasphemous to me.
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Old 2012-12-20, 12:49   Link #4
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Can't have a world without people.
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Old 2012-12-20, 14:01   Link #5
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Hey, no one is liking what he did. But it seems that it was truly his only aim. His intent was not a massacre. That his actions resulted in a couple thousand deaths is indeed a fact, but that was not his aim.
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Old 2012-12-20, 15:52   Link #6
Dauerlutscher
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The way to hell is paved with good intentions.

A genius like him should have known better, but he didn't care as long he could play god.
What did he expect would happen after he kidnapped people and forced them to play this death game? The outcome was obvious.

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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Can't have a world without people.
Then he has to accept the reality that people don't like to be kidnapped and forced to participate in a death game.

That Kabaya willingly played with human lifes is just not justifiable, never.
Or is it ok if I kidnap a couple of poeple and force them to fight for their lifes just because I'm a egomanic megalomaniac guy with a god compex that wants to create his new world? Heck no, it is not ok and it is not justifiable.

If people willingly want to play a game in where they can die, let them, but not like it happened in SAO.

And the morality discussion is important because it shows how much of sick *****... this mass murderer was.

Many of the biggest criminals in history have tried to create their own worlds with in their minds "good intentions" but on the way to this world they have direct or indirect killed millions of people.
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:11   Link #7
Oroboro
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
The way to hell is paved with good intentions.

A genius like him should have known better, but he didn't care as long he could play god.
What did he expect would happen after he kidnapped people and forced them to play this death game? The outcome was obvious.


Then he has to accept the reality that people don't like to be kidnapped and forced to participate in a death game.

That Kabaya willingly played with human lifes is just not justifiable, never.
Or is it ok if I kidnap a couple of poeple and force them to fight for their lifes just because I'm a egomanic megalomaniac guy with a god compex that wants to create his new world? Heck no, it is not ok and it is not justifiable.

If people willingly want to play a game in where they can die, let them, but not like it happened in SAO.

And the morality discussion is important because it shows how much of sick *****... this mass murderer was.

Many of the biggest criminals in history have tried to create their own worlds with in their minds "good intentions" but on the way to this world they have direct or indirect killed millions of people.
Again, nobody is saying it's okay or justifiable or right or in any way not evil. Just trying to explore the situation from Kayaba's perspective here.

He's a genius, he knew exactly what he was doing and how people would take that. He just chose to go through with it anyway.

Sugou was a villain who took an active, malicious desire in hurting and manipulating others for his own personal pleasure and power. Comparatively, Kayaba only cared about his goal, the impact on the lives of the players was an unfortunate consequence of seeing his dream fulfilled. That these people would suffer was inevitable, but his goal was not to create suffering.

Side by side, while both men committed evil deeds, Sugou comes off as a far more despicable person, even though Kayaba's indifference took a greater toll on human life. (By my calculations, 347 microhitlers. )
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:13   Link #8
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Y'know, I can't really see Kayaba as the way Dauerlutscher is describing him. He's not some sick fuck who gets a kick out of toying with other people's lives and just wants to be a source of chaos like The Joker from Batman or something. He's never showed any joy or satisfaction towards anyone dying in while they were trapped in SAO, and I think that's a pretty big difference.
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:18   Link #9
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Presumably Kayaba knew/felt he should be punished for the actions--after all, he set himself up to be the final boss, and if the "echo" of him in the ALO arc is any indication, set himself up under the same death game rules for that final boss fight like everyone else, so that the person who killed his avatar would kill him as well.

Also, I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet, but I do think part of the reason why Kirito wasn't openly hostile to Kayaba in ALO is both because he had just aided Kirito in defeating Sugou to save Asuna, and because he had inadvertently gotten to know Kayaba as a person due to their interactions as Heathcliff--how do we know that Kayaba changed his personality to be Heathcliff? The echo was pretty reasonable as a person (so to speak), and so was Heathcliff--after all, after getting Kirito to join his guild only for someone to murder a comrade before making an attempt on him, Kirito says he and Asuna are going on vacation and he's like "That's fine, you deserve it after that crap. Sorry."

So I do believe that Kirito knows that Kayaba is a monster, but he for a good deal of time got to see Kayaba as a person. And that person went and aided Kirito when for all intents and purposes he didn't have to.
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:54   Link #10
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Again, nobody is saying it's okay or justifiable or right or in any way not evil. Just trying to explore the situation from Kayaba's perspective here.

He's a genius, he knew exactly what he was doing and how people would take that. He just chose to go through with it anyway.

Sugou was a villain who took an active, malicious desire in hurting and manipulating others for his own personal pleasure and power. Comparatively, Kayaba only cared about his goal, the impact on the lives of the players was an unfortunate consequence of seeing his dream fulfilled. That these people would suffer was inevitable, but his goal was not to create suffering.

Side by side, while both men committed evil deeds, Sugou comes off as a far more despicable person, even though Kayaba's indifference took a greater toll on human life. (By my calculations, 347 microhitlers. )
That Sugou comes off as a far more despicable person, doesn't lessen Kayabas crimes.
And that Kayabays goal was not to create suffering is irrelevant beacuse he must have nown the outcome of his deeds, but he simply didn't care. Kayaba is responsible for the suffering an death of thousends of people.
Kayaba is just a different kind of a monster than Sugou, thats all.
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Old 2012-12-20, 17:47   Link #11
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It's hard to direct hatred at someone who doesn't care.

Had Kirito made a bitter, impassioned speech at the end of episode 14, calling him a monster and casting the deaths of everyone at Kayaba's feet, I'm sure his only reaction would be to shrug and just walk away. Leaving him feeling empty and hollow, compared to the peaceful contentedness which with he chose to spend his (presumed) last moments instead.

And I think ultimately, Kirito understands Kayaba's dream, and his goal. In and of itself, the goal is not an evil thing. Only the methods used to achieve it.
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Old 2012-12-20, 18:58   Link #12
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So forcing thousands of people without approval, consent or perceived knowledge into a death game which they have no control over all for the sake of Kayaba's whimsical desire to create a new world? A new era? Seems incredibly blasphemous to me.
Well sorry to say that, but that is how life works...people will always be pushed around by the people who have more might and rights than them with the corresponding results.

And although that may be madness, everybody accepts it.

Quote:
Had Kirito made a bitter, impassioned speech at the end of episode 14, calling him a monster and casting the deaths of everyone at Kayaba's feet, I'm sure his only reaction would be to shrug and just walk away. Leaving him feeling empty and hollow, compared to the peaceful contentedness which with he chose to spend his (presumed) last moments instead.
Yeah, that is exactly my point: why bothering himself with grudges at Kayaba, if he, Asuna and Kayaba will die in 5 or so minutes anyway...that is wasted time.

Kayaba knew he would die anyway so Kirito's hatred would just reach a wall and nothing else.

And as SilverSyko said he wasn't that kind of person who shrugged off the death of the people as none of his business. As Heathcliff he showed that he cared for his guild and the people supporting it, aswell as for the other frontliners.

That ofc doesn't lessen the weight of his crimes, but it shows him in a different light as person.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:14   Link #13
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
It's hard to direct hatred at someone who doesn't care.

Had Kirito made a bitter, impassioned speech at the end of episode 14, calling him a monster and casting the deaths of everyone at Kayaba's feet, I'm sure his only reaction would be to shrug and just walk away. Leaving him feeling empty and hollow, compared to the peaceful contentedness which with he chose to spend his (presumed) last moments instead.

And I think ultimately, Kirito understands Kayaba's dream, and his goal. In and of itself, the goal is not an evil thing. Only the methods used to achieve it.
Being held captive and being forced to fight in a death game is part of his word he created.
And this world he created, with his methods to assure that people would be forced to be in his world and that he had no problem with accepting the the death and suffering of thousends of people, is what is making him a monster.
He played with peoples lifes the moment he created this world and gave himself the right to play God. All his deeds demonstarte exactly what i said about him "he is an egomanic megalomaniac guy with a god compex".

And Hatred against people like him? From my point of view, no mater if he cares or not, he deserves to be hated and he has thrown away every rightno right to expect any form of pity or sympathy.

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Well sorry to say that, but that is how life works...people will always be pushed around by the people who have more might and rights than them with the corresponding results.

And although that may be madness, everybody accepts it.
Because there are people who accept nonsense like this, is the reason why the world is fucked up.
Fortunately, I live in a country where this madness is outlawed and the absolute majority doesn't accept it.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:31   Link #14
Oroboro
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Kayaba is a monster. Nobody here, and nobody in the SAO-verse is offering him pity or sympathy.

Instead, what's being discussed here is empathy. Attempting to understand why he made the decisions he did, for what reasons, and who he was as a person. Doesn't mean that anything he was right, or justified, or acceptable in anyway. Understanding something is not the same as agreeing with it.

If you want to consider Kayaba's trait as "Monster" deserves no attempt to understand at all, and that it overrides everything else about who he is or what he did or why, that's fine, I guess. But as a fictional character, Kayaba is a complex person shrouded in mystery, and there's a lot more that can be said about him than "He's a monster, end of discussion."

And on the other side of the coin, that really is pretty much all you can say about Sugou.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:43   Link #15
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I think it's possible to say a bit more about Sugou. He had an inferiority complex driving him to prove that he was better than other people. Not to be better than other people, but just to show it. In a very real sense, he was trying to be Kayaba (Kirito even points this out) but in the end he never understood the man he was so jealous of.

Anyway, given that his whole motivation is to show off his superiority, it's really no surprise that he did a lot of what people like to consider "stupid" moves like explaining his plans or drawing things out. To Sugou, the destination is less important than the process, and it's important that he belittle and demean as many people on the way as possible, or else he might be forced to remember his own weakness. The opposite of Kayaba, really.
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:06   Link #16
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Kayaba is a monster. Nobody here, and nobody in the SAO-verse is offering him pity or sympathy.

Instead, what's being discussed here is empathy. Attempting to understand why he made the decisions he did, for what reasons, and who he was as a person. Doesn't mean that anything he was right, or justified, or acceptable in anyway. Understanding something is not the same as agreeing with it.

If you want to consider Kayaba's trait as "Monster" deserves no attempt to understand at all, and that it overrides everything else about who he is or what he did or why, that's fine, I guess. But as a fictional character, Kayaba is a complex person shrouded in mystery, and there's a lot more that can be said about him than "He's a monster, end of discussion."

And on the other side of the coin, that really is pretty much all you can say about Sugou.
Not really. I think we all know and understand why he did what he did, and there is no mystory about that. His motives are clear. There is not much to say about Kayaba except the things we already said about him.
And both, Sugou and Kayaba, clearly knew what the were doing and both clearly didn't care as long the could achieve their goals. The only difference between them is that Sugou was portaid as a moronic pervert with a huge inferior complex.
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:19   Link #17
Oroboro
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Maybe not here, but I've seen a lot of people dismiss Kayaba as a joke villain with his motives being "i forgot lol + some bullshit about a castle", walking away with not the slightest clue or understanding as to what was going on there.

So, character analysis.

And good point, Clarste.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:36   Link #18
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To be honest, I weirdly...sort of....like him?

As a villain, I mean. Because he doesn't feel like a typical villain. I like how he keeps his composure....and actually plays fair when it comes to Kirito. And for a villain to actually INTENTIONALY help the protagonist out with no strings attached....well....you don't see that every day, do you? Even though he's a terrible guy, he doesn't give off that goofy "MWAHAHA ME EVIIIIL" vibe. XD That's what I like. He's obviously brilliant (intelligence-wise).
He definitely gained some respect for Kirito, dare I say it, even admires him, perhaps?
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Old 2012-12-21, 02:08   Link #19
Slayerx
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Y'know, I can't really see Kayaba as the way Dauerlutscher is describing him. He's not some sick fuck who gets a kick out of toying with other people's lives and just wants to be a source of chaos like The Joker from Batman or something. He's never showed any joy or satisfaction towards anyone dying in while they were trapped in SAO, and I think that's a pretty big difference.
I disagree. Recall how he regarded Asuna when she died by his sword... he just shruggs it off. He doesnt care that he just killed someone. No the only thing that caught his attention that she was able to move when logically she shouldn't have been able too. The same goes for after he "killed" kirito; he showed no remorse, emotion or care that he just committed murder. He is just cold and unfeeling. Heck if actually DID care about their lives, he would not have started this death game in the first place. He does not get satisfaction out of killing, but he has no remorse for it either.

Frankly, what you saw with heathcliff was more than likely nothing more than just an act. Afterall he was playing the role of the great leader and as such a leader must show compassion for his men. Heck under his command not a single player had to die as he could have just told them to sit back while he and his immortal body did all the work. His purpose as heathcliff was to keep pushing the players to risk their lives and you can't do that without pretending you care about their lives. Basically, he was just roleplaying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Kayaba is a monster. Nobody here, and nobody in the SAO-verse is offering him pity or sympathy.
Kirito and Asuna seemed to be doing exactly taht when they met with him... understanding him is question why he did what he did, but then they end with encouraging his dream; the dream that killed 4,000 people. That certainly seems to be sympathizing with him.

Quote:
It's hard to direct hatred at someone who doesn't care.

Had Kirito made a bitter, impassioned speech at the end of episode 14, calling him a monster and casting the deaths of everyone at Kayaba's feet, I'm sure his only reaction would be to shrug and just walk away. Leaving him feeling empty and hollow, compared to the peaceful contentedness which with he chose to spend his (presumed) last moments instead.
First, most people are not driven by logic, they are driven by emotion; in a difficult situation like that you are more like to follow with your emotions than logic. Kirito's was RAGING against Heathcliff just moments ago, and saw the love of his life die, and now he was dealing with the fact that both he and his lover and now dead and their happy lives are at and end... And kirito bares no ill will towards the man that killed them and 4000 others? No his emotions should not just drop off the face of the earth like that.

Furtharmore, they went as far as symapthize with his dream as if they were letting Kayaba die happy. No after the terrible things he had down I would at least die with regret, guilt or anything. In a sense, it would have been better for kirito to say NOTHING rather than for him to go on a sympathize with the dream that killed thousands. Heck right after Kayaba leaves Kirito and Asuna are crying over the end of their lives, and yet they just let their murderer walk away without a single nasty word, but instead with word's that seemed more meant to give him some final satisfaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Presumably Kayaba knew/felt he should be punished for the actions--after all, he set himself up to be the final boss, and if the "echo" of him in the ALO arc is any indication, set himself up under the same death game rules for that final boss fight like everyone else, so that the person who killed his avatar would kill him as well.
Not necessarily. Some people prefer to choose how they die and for them death is not really a punishment. They managed to do what they wanted to do in life and end it the way they wanted too. In Kayaba's case, its more like his death was meant to be the end to the greatest story ever told

Quote:
Also, I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet, but I do think part of the reason why Kirito wasn't openly hostile to Kayaba in ALO is both because he had just aided Kirito in defeating Sugou to save Asuna, and because he had inadvertently gotten to know Kayaba as a person due to their interactions as Heathcliff--how do we know that Kayaba changed his personality to be Heathcliff? The echo was pretty reasonable as a person (so to speak), and so was Heathcliff--after all, after getting Kirito to join his guild only for someone to murder a comrade before making an attempt on him, Kirito says he and Asuna are going on vacation and he's like "That's fine, you deserve it after that crap. Sorry."

So I do believe that Kirito knows that Kayaba is a monster, but he for a good deal of time got to see Kayaba as a person. And that person went and aided Kirito when for all intents and purposes he didn't have to.
There have been plenty of times where a hero has been helped by a former villian in stories, and one thing that a lot of the best stories do in those situation is make those meetings TENSE. If the hero hates the villain for what they done, those feelings will show; while on the one hand they may want to thank them for what they did, another part of them wants to punch them in the face for everything they did in the past. Angry looks, long silences, resentful tones of voice and so forth is how a character shows this old unforgotten anger. If you did not know the history behind these characters you can tell from their tone of voice, attitude and body language that the history they share was not a pretty one. Not showing such details is for a character that holds no grudges... which would be terrible since Kayaba is guilty of trapping 10,000 people in a death game for his own selfish reasons which got 4,000 of them killed


Also Heathcliff was actually more manipultive than human... afterall his primary purpose seemed to be to push players to keep risking their lives. Heck he let them go on their vaction but not before telling them that they would soon be back to the frontlines; it's as if he knew that they would not be able to leave well enough alone and their vaction would only give them MORE reason to fight... which was sorta true as they began to doubt their ability to simply retire and just live in SAO. And heck heathcliff didn't even wait for them to come back on their own as he ended up calling them to the frontline for their hardest battle yet. Heathcliff was not Kayaba's true face, it was just the one he used to manipulate other players into doing what he wanted them too so that he could play out his little story.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Hey, no one is liking what he did. But it seems that it was truly his only aim. His intent was not a massacre. That his actions resulted in a couple thousand deaths is indeed a fact, but that was not his aim.
Here's a question... Why the boss set up? If all he wanted to do was to create his own realistic world, he could have just made it so that no one could get out of the game and thus be forced to live in his world. But no, he set up a series of DEADLY challenges that would give the thousands what they most desired; the freedom he stole from them. Furtharmore he himself even became a leading participant in the frontline fight to furthar encourage players to risk their lives. He WANTED players to risk their lives to fight to the top even knowing that most would be killed... this was more than creating a world and forcing people to live in it, as he was actively pushing them to put their lives to even greater risk... he was playing games with people's lives

Kayaba does not deserve anykind of sympathy; he didn't have noble goals, or a "greater good" storta reason. He was just a selfish monster that wanted to play in his own little world


Quote:
Originally Posted by Esebian
Well sorry to say that, but that is how life works...people will always be pushed around by the people who have more might and rights than them with the corresponding results.

And although that may be madness, everybody accepts it.
Yes that does happen in the world, except the people of the world are constantly trying to change that. Those that push around others are villians and the good people of society try to get rid of them; the only reason they remain because getting rid of them can be very difficult. Kayaba is no different than the rest of those monsters in the world and deserves nothing but contempt
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Old 2012-12-21, 03:03   Link #20
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I disagree. Recall how he regarded Asuna when she died by his sword... he just shruggs it off. He doesnt care that he just killed someone. No the only thing that caught his attention that she was able to move when logically she shouldn't have been able too. The same goes for after he "killed" kirito; he showed no remorse, emotion or care that he just committed murder. He is just cold and unfeeling. Heck if actually DID care about their lives, he would not have started this death game in the first place. He does not get satisfaction out of killing, but he has no remorse for it either.

Frankly, what you saw with heathcliff was more than likely nothing more than just an act. Afterall he was playing the role of the great leader and as such a leader must show compassion for his men. Heck under his command not a single player had to die as he could have just told them to sit back while he and his immortal body did all the work. His purpose as heathcliff was to keep pushing the players to risk their lives and you can't do that without pretending you care about their lives. Basically, he was just roleplaying.
Kayaba did not have any intentions to kill anyone and to a lot of people that makes a huge difference, it means he is still redeemable. Everyone deserves their chance to atone themselves unless they're a hopeless case, and Kayaba wasn't a hopeless case.

As for the "not caring" thing, do you have the time to take out of your day and think about everyone in the world who has died that you've never even met before? Cause I know I sure as hell don't. Why should Kayaba care about people he doesn't even know?

Quote:
Here's a question... Why the boss set up? If all he wanted to do was to create his own realistic world, he could have just made it so that no one could get out of the game and thus be forced to live in his world. But no, he set up a series of DEADLY challenges that would give the thousands what they most desired; the freedom he stole from them. Furtharmore he himself even became a leading participant in the frontline fight to furthar encourage players to risk their lives. He WANTED players to risk their lives to fight to the top even knowing that most would be killed... this was more than creating a world and forcing people to live in it, as he was actively pushing them to put their lives to even greater risk... he was playing games with people's lives.
SAO was a fucking video game in the first place. Why wouldn't there be bosses and challenges to face? Over-analysing much?

Quote:
Kayaba does not deserve anykind of sympathy; he didn't have noble goals, or a "greater good" storta reason. He was just a selfish monster that wanted to play in his own little world.
Y'know the more you talk like this the more you seem like some god's agent of justice trying to purge to world of sin or something. Seriously just get a grip. Condemning a fictional character to such an extreme degree just makes you look like a fool.

Quote:
Yes that does happen in the world, except the people of the world are constantly trying to change that. Those that push around others are villians and the good people of society try to get rid of them; the only reason they remain because getting rid of them can be very difficult. Kayaba is no different than the rest of those monsters in the world and deserves nothing but contempt.
No. The realism of the situation is that crime and mistreatment of others is never going to go away no matter what people do. Primal human nature is savage and selfish, law is just something created by the weaker people to give them power over the strong and it's just been generally accepted by everyone now.
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