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Old 2012-12-20, 18:34   Link #3281
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
So, instead of moaning about nobody talking about the characters, why don't we have a conversation about them, instead a conversation about not having a conversation about them? This just seems silly to me.

I'll start with: why do so many of the characters (and perhaps viewers) think Miho is a great leader? I just don't understand. She seems weak, wishy-washy, confused most of the time, and not well suited to be the commandant. What am I missing here?
Miho knows what to do, she is trained. However, she is reluctant to follow her training to the letter. The fact is she is taught to treat her team mates as assets, and that victory was all that matters. But in Oorai Miho is trying to ensure the team work together and have fun. Until realising the school was at stake, Miho deliberately avoided acting like a drill sergeant. She didn't enforce discipline because she didn't WANT to enforce discipline. These are not soldiers; they are her friends.

Miho is not confused because she didn't know what to do; she is confused in trying to decide which is the best course of action; her old life, or a new path she strikes out with her new comrades.
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Old 2012-12-20, 18:38   Link #3282
Midonin
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I'll do my part.

I am glad that Hana's storyline from a few weeks ago was followed up on, as was Mako's. Basically everyone's family is to some degree okay with what they're doing now, save for Miho's, which will have to be discussed in a few months. The only one I'm curious about is Saori. We know she's a friend of Hana's, and she got her license (off screen), but she's still mostly been defined by her desire to get a boyfriend. Being able to see some of her family would be nice, and would complete the rounding off of the main characters.
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Old 2012-12-20, 18:48   Link #3283
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
Why, though, must the people watching for the girls be the "lesser" part of the fanbase? It's the same argument I heard for shows like Sakurasou - the people who enjoy things like comedy and fanservice and familiar elements (such as in this case, the characters) are just there to be roped in, while the people who prefer the "serious" elements are the ones who "get" it. It's a false dichotomy I've never been very fond of.
It's not a question of "getting it" at all - it's just that the show was meant to appeal differently than all of the other bishoujo ones. It's an action show first and foremost, and those have always been on the rare side. If my suspicion about Girls und Panzer originally conceived as a two-cour show is correct, they probably meant to have more bishoujo elements. Most of those ended up getting lost switching to a single cour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I understand that a lot of people are watching for both, but what the show's doing (and again, the proportion of discussion in this thread), is done in a way that discussion on the other half of the show is minimal, or at least lacks an easy way to wedge itself into the conversation.
Sports anime tends to use three main techniques to characterize their casts: internal monologues, involved flashbacks and out-of-game interaction. Girls und Panzer has made a concerted effort to go with a "show don't tell" approach to storytelling, so it has largely cut out the first couple, and relies almost wholly on the out-of-game interaction.

We actually get a lot of information about the characters, but it tends to be a lot more understated than you'd see elsewhere. For example, how many viewers managed to catch that Hana is a glutton who eats twice as much as the other characters? On a similar note, we do get pretty strong impressions of what Team Rabbit or Team Duck is like even if we don't know all that much about them as individuals. I could say the same for Team Pravda as a whole as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
See, that's where reality comes in. The greatest issue of GuP is NOT that the tanks are getting in the way of the girls; it's that it is impossible for a 12 episode series to handle a cast of two dozen.
Girls und Panzer hasn't really done all that bad a job of it. The characters who have received a decent amount of characterization are:
-Miho
-Yukari
-Hana
-Mako
-Saori

-Anzu
-Momo

-Darjeeling

-Kay
-Alisa

-Katyusha
-Nonno

-Erika
And to a less extent:
-Yuzu
-Erwin
-Naomi
-Saki (yes, even without a single line)
-Hana's mother
-Mako's grandmother
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I'll start with: why do so many of the characters (and perhaps viewers) think Miho is a great leader? I just don't understand. She seems weak, wishy-washy, confused most of the time, and not well suited to be the commandant. What am I missing here?
She's a lot better than the rest of Ooarai, and she's the only one with any tank experience. Against Pravda, no one, not even Yukari, had the slightest idea of the danger. Her improvisation has also been very good - allowing them to have a chance after suffering setbacks. I'm not a fan of her overall tactical plans, but she's been a pretty good commander otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
On the other hand, the only two faces I can name in this series, after eleven episodes in the last eleven weeks, are Miho and Maho. And I can only remember Maho as she happens to be Miho's sister. For me, this isn't because there's so many cast members that I'm overwhelmed, but because the characters, themselves, are not very prominent. And if Miho was not the main character, I probably wouldn't remember her name, either.
I'd say Yukari, Mako, Momo and Anzu are all more distinctive than Miho.
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Old 2012-12-20, 18:58   Link #3284
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Just as another example of Miho compromising her past training, she deliberately didn't say anything when the gamers showed up. Had she still remained at Black Forest, she would have bluntly told them that they can't possible fight in the Finals as amateurs. That they could get in the way.

Miho just grinned sheepishly and let them participate, because they were so happy at being able to pilot tanks for the first time. They were having FUN. And Miho doesn't want to get in the way of that. Miho is new to the idea of Senshado that's played for pleasure, and she is trying to follow that concept the best she can. While still trying to win of course.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:04   Link #3285
FredFriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't think she's very good either, but she did take her team all the way to the finals, so there's that. And she does have a knack for seeing how the other side thinks, even if she can't apply it very well.
It seems more like luck than skill or leadership, but I have zippo military experience, so I'm not a judge of actual battlefield tactics.

Quote:
Besides, a ragtag band of misfits is harder to lead than a disciplined troupe steeped in tradition like Black Forest.
This is definitely true. Nonetheless, until it becomes absolutely necessary to buckle down and try to win, it seems more like she's leading a kindergarten class on an outing to play at the local park for the day instead of actually leading them into battle.

Quote:
he did say half a dozen was usual.
Well, there were the six main girls, three male teammates, the dad, and at least two leaders of opposing teams. That's a dozen all very well defined characters so, yeah, in my mind it isn't impossible to do in a one cour series.

Quote:
And personally, I think the whole Anglerfish is decently characterized. So's the student council.
Maybe my problem is that I'm too focused on the tanks, though, like you, I have neither any real knowledge nor interest in them. Yet, in this series, they really have grabbed my attention. But, maybe, it's because the anime just doesn't invoke any real emotional attachment (or rejection) of the characters for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
She's a lot better than the rest of Ooarai, and she's the only one with any tank experience.
That's a perspective I can understand. Sorta like a group of blind kids following the one sighted kid thinking he knows the way from the school to the park.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of her overall tactical plans, but she's been a pretty good commander otherwise.
Part of my impression comes from that scene when they were holed up in that building for three hours. It sure didn't seem to me like she was such a strong leader, letting her troops get all depressed, with them sitting around moping.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:11   Link #3286
Kamui04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I'm not trying to rip the show apart, and for me to be overtly negative towards anything at all is difficult. It's just a combination of the discussion in this thread and the way the show is presenting itself (plus several weeks of holding back) that caused me to get this debate out and just as you don't want to be angry at me, I don't want to be angry at any of you, either. It's simply a case of two very different viewpoints of what people want out of anime.

I'm sorry if I've caused anyone trouble. I stand by what I said, but if any of it came across as rude, then my sincerest apologies. At least, I hope everyone was able to get an interesting debate out of it.
Would you be happier if the show was named PANZERS und girls from the get got? I'm smelling a complain about bait-and-switch. Everyone's viewpoint is valid and everyone started watching this anime expecting different things.

In my case I'm really happy that they put the effort into part of what the show is about: Tanks. I didn't expect much and be baited by the tanks and would end up watching one of hundreds of generic shows trying the same bait-and-switch formula ending up as another cute girls doing cute things. For a 1-cour anime, I think they struck a nice balance as for the development of some of the main characters and the tank action and world setting.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:13   Link #3287
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
This is definitely true. Nonetheless, until it becomes absolutely necessary to buckle down and try to win, it seems more like she's leading a kindergarten class on an outing to play at the local park for the day instead of actually leading them into battle.
They ARE playing. It's a sport. Now granted, the Black Forest side doesn't see it like that. But the fact is all the other girls (minus Italy) handled their defeats gracefully. They didn't think losing a match is the end of the world.

The main theme with Miho, is for her to find out if this "play for fun" school of thought is truly valid against the overwhelming forces of her past life.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:16   Link #3288
Midonin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui04 View Post
Would you be happier if the show was named PANZERS und girls from the get got? I'm smelling a complain about bait-and-switch. Everyones viewpoint is valid and everyone started watching this anime expecting different things.

In my case I'm really happy that they put the effort into part of what the show is about: Tanks. I didn't expect much and be baited by the tanks and would end up watching one of hundreds of generic shows trying the same bait-and-switch formula ending up as another cute girls doing cute things.
The show's close enough to several other shows I've enjoyed and compared it to. The atmosphere, the animation, most of it is something I feel comfortable with. And once again, I have been enjoying it. It's easy to watch and I understand the action well enough from the emotional reaction without knowing all the technical details. I'm just not comfortable with the primary focus of the show. I'll admit it very likely is a bait and switch. A lot of the comments saying that people are glad it's not "another _____", I understand where those are coming from... but I also happen to like those anothers quite a lot. My lack of technical knowledge left me wondering where I'd fit in. That is being remedied a bit on these pages, at least.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:21   Link #3289
Chiaki_chan
Kubo GO TO HELL
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
-Miho
-Yukari
-Hana
-Mako
-Saori

-Anzu
-Momo

-Darjeeling

-Kay
-Alisa

-Katyusha
-Nonno

-Erika
And to a less extent:
-Yuzu
-Erwin
-Naomi
-Saki (yes, even without a single line)
-Hana's mother
-Mako's grandmother
Really Saki??? she was speaking?? uh ......... it was not she who screamed? "hey hey hoooo"? or I confused but otherwise I do not see when ...
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:31   Link #3290
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I'll do my part.

I am glad that Hana's storyline from a few weeks ago was followed up on, as was Mako's. Basically everyone's family is to some degree okay with what they're doing now, save for Miho's, which will have to be discussed in a few months. The only one I'm curious about is Saori. We know she's a friend of Hana's, and she got her license (off screen), but she's still mostly been defined by her desire to get a boyfriend. Being able to see some of her family would be nice, and would complete the rounding off of the main characters.
We get a bit from her interaction with Mako as well. In general, Saori and Hana don't stand out as much as their teamates because their character tics (read charm points) don't stand out as much. The real winner of the main cast is Yukari because her interests tie into the premise of the show so well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
It seems more like luck than skill or leadership, but I have zippo military experience, so I'm not a judge of actual battlefield tactics.
It's a lot of luck, but with anyone else as commander, Ooarai would have lost badly every single time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
That's a perspective I can understand. Sorta like a group of blind kids following the one sighted kid thinking he knows the way from the school to the park.
I think that Miho knows very well that she's in over her head . Really good tank commanders aren't all that common, so I'm not surprised if the ones in the show aren't super effective. Even so, Miho is about even in skill to Darjeeling, better than Kay, and falls short (hah!) of Katyusha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Part of my impression comes from that scene when they were holed up in that building for three hours. It sure didn't seem to me like she was such a strong leader, letting her troops get all depressed, with them sitting around moping.
I think that Miho was at her best in that church. She sent out scouts on foot to find out where the Pravda tanks were. And when their morale was in the doldrums, with no food and the cold, she lifted them up with that silly dance. It's one of the main reasons I don't feel bad about Ooarai winning that fight even though Pravada deserved it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
The show's close enough to several other shows I've enjoyed and compared it to. The atmosphere, the animation, most of it is something I feel comfortable with.
I'm rewatching Saki right now, and it's closer to Girls und Panzer than any other show, but they're still not very similar at all. I think the false sense of familiarity might be thowing you off a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan View Post
Really Saki??? she was speaking?? uh ......... it was not she who screamed? "hey hey hoooo"? or I confused but otherwise I do not see when ...
She doesn't even have a voice actress. But we can still get a good sense of what's going on (or what's not going on ) inside her head.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:35   Link #3291
aldw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
It seems more like luck than skill or leadership, but I have zippo military experience, so I'm not a judge of actual battlefield tactics.
Having studied both early tank battles and the US Civil War I'd readily agree with that point.

Quote:
Just as another example of Miho compromising her past training, she deliberately didn't say anything when the gamers showed up. Had she still remained at Black Forest, she would have bluntly told them that they can't possible fight in the Finals as amateurs. That they could get in the way.

Miho just grinned sheepishly and let them participate, because they were so happy at being able to pilot tanks for the first time. They were having FUN. And Miho doesn't want to get in the way of that. Miho is new to the idea of Senshado that's played for pleasure, and she is trying to follow that concept the best she can. While still trying to win of course.
In a way it's similar to how professional and amateur athletes have different perspectives on the same sport, professionals play for money so have to take it as 'srs business' with severe consequences while amateurs are supposed to play for the joy of competition and effort. Of course in reality this isn't so cut and dried but the underlying difference is there. The thing is Miho shouldn't reject her past anymore than staying static either, in the end reconciling both ends together to make a better whole for the future is best, and Maho and Shiho's understanding is an important element in that.

As for the tank action, I still like it despite certain unbelievable elements (such as ignoring impacts that would cause outright significantly serious concussive injuries if it happened in reality, carbon lining or not).
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:37   Link #3292
Chiaki_chan
Kubo GO TO HELL
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
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Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
She doesn't even have a voice actress. But we can still get a good sense of what's going on (or what's not going on ) inside her head.
So it is not she who yell "hey hey hooo" I have confused with another girl and his team and she did not seyu for it so yes I am wrong

it is just to "fill in" but she is so adorable I hope and wonder if there will be Omake with it
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:39   Link #3293
Sumeragi
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I just have this to say: Why not just wait for the Extras to see what development we see with the rest of the cast? Most likely that's where we'll have something for the other girls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
As for the tank action, I still like it despite certain unbelievable elements (such as ignoring impacts that would cause outright significant concussive injuries if it happened in reality, carbon lining or not).
It depends. We know that they're using special rounds which most likely would not have as much force as regular military rounds.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:42   Link #3294
Midonin
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I just have this to say: Why not just wait for the Extras to see what development we see with the rest of the cast? Most likely that's where we'll have something for the other girls.
I've been saying that for the past few weeks, that these OVAs may be closer to the show I'm looking for. But not even the first one has been released yet.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:43   Link #3295
Chiaki_chan
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I just have this to say: Why not just wait for the Extras to see what development we see with the rest of the cast? Most likely that's where we'll have something for the other girls.
this is true but good even if it happens it would be too much to hope that she speaks haha
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:55   Link #3296
FredFriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They ARE playing. It's a sport.
Yes, I understand that. But even so, it's stressing my suspension of dis-belief. Maybe my kindergarten analogy wasn't good enough. How about, it's like she's taking them to the amusement park to ride the bumper cars? But these aren't bumper cars. They are tanks with real ammunition. While playing in bumper cars, it's pretty hard to get hurt. But in the game they are playing, you could get killed. She just doesn't seem to take it seriously enough. Perhaps it's an adverse reaction from her last battle as a Black Forest member.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
My lack of technical knowledge left me wondering where I'd fit in. That is being remedied a bit on these pages, at least.
I doubt your lack of technical knowledge about tanks could have been any greater than mine when this series started. However, after reading over 3,000 posts in this thread, I have learned a great deal about them. I might not remember much after the series ends, but it has been fascinating reading, nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's a lot of luck, but with anyone else as commander, Ooarai would have lost badly every single time.
Can't disagree with this...

Quote:
I think that Miho knows very well that she's in over her head ...
or this...

Quote:
I think that Miho was at her best in that church. She sent out scouts on foot to find out where the Pravda tanks were. And when their morale was in the doldrums, with no food and the cold, she lifted them up with that silly dance. It's one of the main reasons I don't feel bad about Ooarai winning that fight even though Pravada deserved it more.
but she should not have allowed her troops get so miserably depressed in the first place. If anything, she should have performed that silly dance much, much sooner, or at least given them a rousing speech, or something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
The thing is Miho shouldn't reject her past anymore than staying static either, in the end reconciling both ends together to make a better whole for the future is best, and Maho and Shiho's understanding is an important element in that.
Gotta agree with this. That rejection of her past is causing her to do a 180° swing, too loose instead of too strict, too lax of a commandant instead of too disciplined. She needs to find her own way out of the forest.

Quote:
As for the tank action, I still like it despite certain unbelievable elements (such as ignoring impacts that would cause outright significantly serious concussive injuries if it happened in reality, carbon lining or not).
Same here! If it wasn't for the great tank action, I most likely would have dropped the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It depends. We know that they're using special rounds which most likely would not have as much force as regular military rounds.
Although that is true, it doesn't lessen the fact that they are getting very jostled around, and landing upside down doesn't look like all that much fun. They can't all be getting out of those tanks after each battle as fresh as daisies with no battle damage, whatsoever.
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:05   Link #3297
Panzerklein
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They're not real ammunition, they don't cause casuality for tank crew, they can't be killed by just shot, useless they fall to river or cliff (real world sport accidents can cause death too), but in that situation no matter you in bumper car or tank, you may be dead. So it is still sport, and girls are playing.

Quote:
but she should not have allowed her troops get so miserably depressed in the first place. If anything, she should have performed that silly dance much, much sooner, or at least given them a rousing speech, or something...
They aren't her troops, but your sport teamates, they're not army but sport compitiers. They playing side by side friendly, not as same as commander and soldiers on battlefield.

Quote:
Gotta agree with this. That rejection of her past is causing her to do a 180° swing, too loose instead of too strict, too lax of a commandant instead of too disciplined. She needs to find her own way out of the forest.
One again, they're not army and the only Miho had experience before, while the rest of team only first 5 teams has little few battles before the National Tournament, the later 3 team is only form during tournament. You can't expect Elite's ability and discipline from levy? And Miho lead them as friend in a sport and has fun not a commander in real war.
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Last edited by Panzerklein; 2012-12-20 at 20:22.
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:23   Link #3298
FredFriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
They're not real ammunition,
Pardon my lack of military knowledge. From what I understand, they are not blanks, which I understand to mean that when fired, no projectile gets emitted from the shell. When they fire these cannons, some kind of projectile gets emitted which can then hit another tank, or the ground, or perhaps Miho when she's sticking her head out.

Quote:
they don't cause casuality for tank crew, they can't be killed by just shot,
So you would be willing to be stand outside your tank and be shot by one of these projectiles from point blank range? And you would not be hurt? At all?

Quote:
useless they fall to river or cliff (real world sport accidents can cause death too), but in that situation no matter you in bumper car or tank, you may be dead. So it is still sport, and girls are playing.
Well, you know, I never said how they could be killed, but the changes are far greater during the tank game than the bumper car game that someone could get hurt.

Quote:
They aren't her troops, but your sport teamates, they're army, they are sport compitiers. They playing side by side friendly, not as same as commander and soldiers on battlefield.
Is this better:

Quote:
As their leader, she should not have allowed her teammates get so miserably depressed in the first place.
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:31   Link #3299
aldw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerklein View Post
One again, they're not army and the only Miho had experience before, while the rest of team only first 5 teams has little few battles before the National Tournament, the later 3 team is only form during tournament. You can't expect Elite's ability and discipline from levy? And Miho lead them as friend in a sport and has fun not a commander in real war.
One of the best historical examples of amateurs fighting as well as professionals is Nathan Bedford Forrest's Cavalry force during the Civil War, considering that he never served in the army prior to that (then again, the whole US Civil War was an example of amateurs becoming veterans).
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:41   Link #3300
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
One of the best historical examples of amateurs fighting as well as professionals is Nathan Bedford Forrest's Cavalry force during the Civil War, considering that he never served in the army prior to that (then again, the whole US Civil War was an example of amateurs becoming veterans).
Veterans are just amateurs who didn't die.
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