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Old 2012-12-14, 16:44   Link #501
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The main complaint about a touch-oriented system is the ergonomic failure. Vertical screens and touch are painful after a few hours.
What kind of usage scenario would force you to use touch as the primary/only input method on a vertical screen for a few hours?

It's more likely for touch to be a complementary input method to keyboard and mouse.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:49   Link #502
synaesthetic
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Touch takes the place of the mouse, so why would you need both? A mouse input can do everything touch can do, except for types of inputs it can't do by design in which case you'd be stuck using touch only for those applications.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:55   Link #503
monster
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Touch takes the place of the mouse, so why would you need both? A mouse input can do everything touch can do, except for types of inputs it can't do by design in which case you'd be stuck using touch only for those applications.
You don't need both. That doesn't mean you can't have both. Sometimes it's easier to use one method over the other. If you have the choice of both, you can use either one depending on your preference for the particular activity you're trying to accomplish.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:58   Link #504
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The main complaint about a touch-oriented system is the ergonomic failure. Vertical screens and touch are painful after a few hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Touch-enabled desktops are stupid, too. Using a touchscreen on a vertically-oriented monitor is a major ergonomic fail--it's just not comfortable.
These are good points, but again the question is whether we're seeing a weakness of touch input or whether the problem is that we're fitting touch-based input into environments that have clearly been designed for mouse-and-keyboard arrangements. Again, I'm not trying to say that touch is superior and should replace everything that we have today, but I don't think that we've reached the point where touch-based input is shining its brightest.
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Old 2012-12-15, 04:31   Link #505
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You raise a good point, but it's also an interesting one. Let's be honest - how many of us here, regardless of operating system, use applications in non-maximized view? I'm not talking about Finder or Explorer windows, I'm talking about web browsers, Office applications (or equivalents), and so on. I've seen some people (mostly programmers) who resize windows so that they can view many applications at once, but the majority immediately maximize the window of the application that they're working with. My guess is that Apple and Microsoft, through collection of user data, have reached a similar conclusion, and hence we have Apple's "full screen mode" for applications in OS X, and Microsoft's "Metro" interface with Windows 8.
Arranging multiple windows is a hassle so I usually maximize web browsers and office apps. However, with Windows 7 and 8 (in desktop mode) I'm not limited to maximizing only one Window at a time: I can maximize one app to the left side of the screen and one to the right side, simply by hitting winkey + right or winkey+left as needed. It essentially divides my 1920X1080 display into two 960X1080 displays. It's a bit less useful on my laptop due to the 1366x768 screen, but I actually use it quite a bit there too - my line of work requires me to do a ton of referencing and fact checking as I write.

(For reference, BTW, I believe that there are programs that add this capability to OS X. I'm not surprised as for me it's one of those "how did I live without this?" kind of features.

Metro allows an 80/20 split between two apps, which strikes me as great for those who want to, say, have a IM client open while browsing, but isn't so useful for someone like me. At least on it's own. One can actually have the desktop and a Metro app open in an 80/20 split in Windows 8, which actually strikes me as pretty cool since I could do a 40/40/20 split between two desktop apps and a metro app.
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Old 2012-12-15, 08:00   Link #506
felix
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@Ledgem you're arguing that it's okey to completely screw over everything just because you're ignorant of their uses and hence believe A is interchangeable by B, because you only want to see it from your "use cases" and theorize that clearly everything else is either nonexistent or derived from your use case. And then postulate that this whole new interface, presentation and interaction methods, "is good" because nobody has found "wrongs" in it, while placing this very convenient rule that "any exception to it not being good is simply because it's new". Now I'm pretty sure that's a self-proving, self-defending argument, ie. complete nonsense.

While on the subject, how exactly do you expect us to prove to you it's useful inside the confines of your use case of it; as if all use cases are somehow equivalent (in the sense of producing one from another). This is like proving some advanced physics to you, while at the same time having you remain in your comfort zero-experience zone, it's just not something that's going to happen. It's more practical for you to prove to us how "touch and related touch-oriented-inerfaces are a justified replacement of [all] current practices." And as I see it, they aren't.
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Old 2012-12-15, 10:09   Link #507
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Arranging multiple windows is a hassle so I usually maximize web browsers and office apps. However, with Windows 7 and 8 (in desktop mode) I'm not limited to maximizing only one Window at a time: I can maximize one app to the left side of the screen and one to the right side, simply by hitting winkey + right or winkey+left as needed.
I was searching for some multi-monitor software on OS X last night and came across a few programs that add this functionality into OS X. A lot of people remarked about how it was a feature in Windows 7 that they missed when migrating to OS X. Since I've had the software for less than 24 hours I haven't had much opportunity to use it, but it seems like a useful feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
@Ledgem you're arguing that it's okey to completely screw over everything just because
Sorry felix, I stopped reading your post here because that's not what I'm arguing at all. What I have been saying this entire time is that people should not be so quick to trash one interface simply because our computing paradigm, everything from user interfaces to physical computer setups, has been based around a different style of user input. I know my posts can get lengthy, but I think this point has been pretty clear. I have tried to end every single post with it. This is about keeping on open mind to what touch-based input and tablet computing can provide, not about one interface replacing another. Windows 8 and the Surface takes this a step further by allowing for both types of input (touch and keyboard+mouse) and both interfaces (Metro and classic). It seems Microsoft's major failure with Windows 8 was making Metro the default interface for non-tablet devices, with no way to disable it or make it the secondary interface.
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:38   Link #508
synaesthetic
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Actually, that was Windows 8's only real failing--though I am a bit annoyed they took out Aero Glass. I quite like it, especially with UXStyleCore so I can tweak the hell out of it.

When installed on a device without a touchscreen (and the OS can detect this quite easily) Windows 8 should default to the desktop mode and it should also replace the horizontally-oriented (better for touch input) Start Page with the vertically-oriented (better for mouse input) Start Menu.

This would make devices like the Asus Transformer absolutely amazing. An x86 Windows tablet that docks into a keyboard and touchpad combo. Normally, when not docked to the keyboard, it would display the touch-friendly Metro UI, but when docked, it would automatically revert to the classic Desktop UI and give you a mouse cursor.

I'd pay good money for a device like that. It'd fill both my laptop (content creating) and tablet (content consuming) needs. I could dock it to the keyboard to type up papers, write code, compile programs, draft lab reports for school--and then un-dock it to surf the web or watch a video on the couch.
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:04   Link #509
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
These are good points, but again the question is whether we're seeing a weakness of touch input or whether the problem is that we're fitting touch-based input into environments that have clearly been designed for mouse-and-keyboard arrangements. Again, I'm not trying to say that touch is superior and should replace everything that we have today, but I don't think that we've reached the point where touch-based input is shining its brightest.
I prefer my trackpoint to touch based input on most Metro apps. Most anything that you can do with fancy touch gestures, you can do faster with a keyboard shortcut.

Maybe they are still thinking kb/m even in Metro apps, but I doubt this. Keyboard/mouse is simply a more efficient input method for most tasks that we do on computers.

Quote:
When installed on a device without a touchscreen (and the OS can detect this quite easily) Windows 8 should default to the desktop mode and it should also replace the horizontally-oriented (better for touch input) Start Page with the vertically-oriented (better for mouse input) Start Menu.
I don't think it should default to desktop mode (though a more kb/m oriented layout for the Start Screen would be welcome). So you log in, and you face the Start Screen, you get all the Live Tile notifications (weather, calendar, etc) if you use them, and you can start typing immediately to launch your first app. If it defaulted to desktop, you have an extra button press before you can launch your first app. I think presenting the user with an app launcher as the first thing they see is a brilliant idea, if a bit awkward at first since you're not used to it.

Quote:
Actually, that was Windows 8's only real failing--though I am a bit annoyed they took out Aero Glass. I quite like it, especially with UXStyleCore so I can tweak the hell out of it.
I'm more annoyed that they took out Windows Classic.
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Old 2012-12-16, 04:25   Link #510
synaesthetic
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Oh dear lord no. Windows Classic gives me horrible nightmares about Windows 9x and the complete and utter pile of fail it was. It looks so incredibly 90s.
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Old 2012-12-16, 10:20   Link #511
Kyero Fox
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Gotta use what ever I can. Windows 7 seems to be good tho, Won't ever upgrade to 8 or 9 unless games NEED it.
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Old 2012-12-16, 17:42   Link #512
synaesthetic
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The reason I say do away with the Start Page is that it scrolls horizontally. This is terrible for a usability standpoint with a mouse and keyboard--mice don't have horizontal scroll wheels.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:43   Link #513
Random32
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If you have a vertical only scrolling mouse, scrolling will move the Start Screen, and most Metro apps horizontally.

Also, incredibly 90's is a compliment. It's called being Retro.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:52   Link #514
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
If you have a vertical only scrolling mouse, scrolling will move the Start Screen, and most Metro apps horizontally.

Also, incredibly 90's is a compliment. It's called being Retro.
I'll haul the green and black monochrome up from the basement
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:07   Link #515
Random32
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I'll haul the green and black monochrome up from the basement
lol. At that point, why not just break out the slide rules?
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Old 2012-12-16, 19:21   Link #516
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
lol. At that point, why not just break out the slide rules?
I have several and know how to use them. And some books on ancient engineering, trig/log tables, etc. for after the apocalypse.

I've got a 'guest' computer that sits in the guest bedroom, maybe I'll throw win8 on that and see what happens o.O
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Old 2012-12-16, 20:19   Link #517
synaesthetic
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Oh well. I'll just keep using Windows 7 until there are enough hacks and mods to rip the touch nonsense out of Windows 8.

Or Valve convinces the gaming industry to pay attention to Linux (small chance, but I'm hoping). If that happens I'll get rid of Windows forever and live happily on Linux Mint.
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Old 2012-12-21, 00:19   Link #518
Alchemist007
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It's the break we're looking for isn't it? The hardcore mofos will be rockin Linux while the casuals will be blissfully ignorant with their point and touchy finger screens. I say death to lipids on my pretty color rectangle.

I've actually only used Redhat, holy crap that thing was slow. Stupid behind the times school.
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:41   Link #519
creb
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The only nonsense is people who pretend to be tech savvy perpetuating some warped dimensional reality field that you need to use touch with Windows 8.

In other news, I would strongly recommend NOT using the Reset feature built into 8. Reformatting and re-installing a clean install of 8 takes like 10 minutes. Resetting my second desktop took 6 hours. On a practical level, both methods achieve the same thing.
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:55   Link #520
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
The only nonsense is people who pretend to be tech savvy perpetuating some warped dimensional reality field that you need to use touch with Windows 8.
If you think that, you're obviously not listening. It's not the touch input that bothers me, it's the fact that the OS is designed for touch input when I'm not going to be using touch input at all.

I don't want the Start Screen. I don't want full-screen only apps. I want vertically-arranged context menus that take advantage of the input device I use--a mouse with a scroll-wheel.
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