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Old 2012-12-21, 03:48   Link #21
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Kayaba did not have any intentions to kill anyone and to a lot of people that makes a huge difference, it means he is still redeemable. Everyone deserves their chance to atone themselves unless they're a hopeless case, and Kayaba wasn't a hopeless case.

As for the "not caring" thing, do you have the time to take out of your day and think about everyone in the world who has died that you've never even met before? Cause I know I sure as hell don't. Why should Kayaba care about people he doesn't even know?
Yes i don't think about all the poeple dying everyday, but i'm not the one at fault for them dying. The EXTREME difference in this situation is the fact that kayaba HIMSELF is the one who put those people in this deadly situation; he tore them from their happy normal lives and forced them into a death game. If I am going to knowingly put people in danger then i damn well SHOULD think about their lives and care, cause if i don't then i would be a monster; i got people killed and i don't care.

And furthermore, he killed two people with his own hands (granted the first accidentally)... if I were to kill someone accidentally I would atleast respond with some level of shock for the horrible thing that i just did; which would quickly be followed by intense guilt and remorse. To feel no emotion when you accidentally kill someone or out right commit murder is a terrible trait


And Kayaba DID have the intention to kill people... he crafted this scenirio KNOWING full well that people would die. He himself pushed them to fight the bosses knowing that many of them would not make it. He entered into that final duel with Kirito knowing that should he win he would kill kirito; he fought kirito with the fullintention to kill him, he jsut accepted the possibility that he himself might loose... And if the players got to the top, he fully intended to kill every last player that came against him until one (if any) managed to kill him.

Quote:
SAO was a fucking video game in the first place. Why wouldn't there be bosses and challenges to face? Over-analysing much?
Because it's not just a game. Kayaba built this world for a reason and People are trying to explain away his actions like trying to rationalize why he made the world the way he did, but if he was JUST crafting a world then the game aspects of it would not be necessary. Heck you say that Kayaba did not have any intention of killing anyone and yet this entire scenerio was crafted to push the players to risk their lives with he himself doing a lot of the pushing; he was literally leading players to their deaths. He knew they would be killed but he did it anyway... if all he wanted to do was create a realistic world, then this series of bosses would be irrelevant.

He didn't want to make a world; he wanted to play a game that involved people's lives

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No. The realism of the situation is that crime and mistreatment of others is never going to go away no matter what people do. Primal human nature is savage and selfish, law is just something created by the weaker people to give them power over the strong and it's just been generally accepted by everyone now.
So? this doesn't stop us from trying to end it and we condemn all those humans that contribute to the crime pain and chaos in the world... we do not just shrug off the actions of mass murderers just because the world is full of pain.
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Old 2012-12-21, 04:34   Link #22
SilverSyko
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
And furthermore, he killed two people with his own hands (granted the first accidentally)... if I were to kill someone accidentally I would atleast respond with some level of shock for the horrible thing that i just did; which would quickly be followed by intense guilt and remorse. To feel no emotion when you accidentally kill someone or out right commit murder is a terrible trait.
Would you feel anything towards killing an enemy that was trying to kill you to undo your ideals? Probably not, and even if you did it'd probably be hatred and contempt. If Kayaba showed those emotions he probably would have been irredeemable, but he didn't.

Quote:
And Kayaba DID have the intention to kill people... he crafted this scenirio KNOWING full well that people would die. He himself pushed them to fight the bosses knowing that many of them would not make it. He entered into that final duel with Kirito knowing that should he win he would kill kirito; he fought kirito with the fullintention to kill him, he jsut accepted the possibility that he himself might loose... And if the players got to the top, he fully intended to kill every last player that came against him until one (if any) managed to kill him.
No he did not, his intention was to create a "world". People dying is a natural occurrence in a "world" so that needed to be a possibility and just like real-life it was something that happened very often.

You can throw all the blame on to Kayaba being aware of what he was doing all you want, but the fact of the matter is that none of the deaths were things he had control over after he put them in the game. They were all deaths that would occur naturally in a "world". What you're arguing is like someone dying to a wild animal on a nature reserve and then blaming the owner of the reserve being completely responsible for their death. That's just silly.

Quote:
Because it's not just a game. Kayaba built this world for a reason and People are trying to explain away his actions like trying to rationalize why he made the world the way he did, but if he was JUST crafting a world then the game aspects of it would not be necessary. Heck you say that Kayaba did not have any intention of killing anyone and yet this entire scenerio was crafted to push the players to risk their lives with he himself doing a lot of the pushing; he was literally leading players to their deaths. He knew they would be killed but he did it anyway... if all he wanted to do was create a realistic world, then this series of bosses would be irrelevant.

He didn't want to make a world; he wanted to play a game that involved people's lives
It's a "world" Kayaba created marketed on the surface as an MMO video game. It needs to be somewhat convincing for any stores to sell it in the first place.

And for another real-world comparison about Kayaba driving others towards their deaths, what you're saying is like when two countries go to war, the one responsible for all the people dying on either side are the armies' respective commanders. As if. He was just doing his duty as a guild leader.

And how do you know that "playing a game with people's lives" is what Kayaba wanted? Did he ever say that? I don't think so.

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So? this doesn't stop us from trying to end it and we condemn all those humans that contribute to the crime pain and chaos in the world... we do not just shrug off the actions of mass murderers just because the world is full of pain.
It's not going to happen. You can enforce all the crime and chaos in the world as hard as you want, but completely eliminating it is realistically impossible.
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Old 2012-12-21, 04:49   Link #23
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko
No he did not, his intention was to create a "world". People dying is a natural occurrence in a "world" so that needed to be a possibility and just like real-life it was something that happened very often..
Kayaba is trying to make his dream a reality and will kill anyone that poses a threat to that end goal. The NervGear hijacking is the biggest proof of this. If he really had no intention to kill then he won't put that functionality in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko
You can throw all the blame on to Kayaba being aware of what he was doing all you want, but the fact of the matter is that none of the deaths were things he had control over after he put them in the game. They were all deaths that would occur naturally in a "world". What you're arguing is like someone dying to a wild animal on a nature reserve and then blaming the owner of the reserve being completely responsible for their death. That's just silly.
If that reserve owner is the one who forcefully trap people in there, then yes, he is totally at fault.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
As for the "not caring" thing, do you have the time to take out of your day and think about everyone in the world who has died that you've never even met before? Cause I know I sure as hell don't. Why should Kayaba care about people he doesn't even know?
You are right. Most street criminals don't care who they just kill.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
SAO was a fucking video game in the first place. Why wouldn't there be bosses and challenges to face? Over-analysing much?
The moment the "game" becomes a death game, "fairness", "challange" and all that went down the drain. I really can't understand why you are saying "but it''s just a game!" when it's clearly not. It's a life and death matter.

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Y'know the more you talk like this the more you seem like some god's agent of justice trying to purge to world of sin or something. Seriously just get a grip. Condemning a fictional character to such an extreme degree just makes you look like a fool.
It just means he's able to empathize with Kayaba's victims more. And if you look closely, he's actually done a quite thorough analysis of Kayaba's character despite constantly calling him a monster. You disagreeing with it does not mean it's wrong.
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Old 2012-12-21, 07:57   Link #24
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Kayaba did not have any intentions to kill anyone and to a lot of people that makes a huge difference, it means he is still redeemable. Everyone deserves their chance to atone themselves unless they're a hopeless case, and Kayaba wasn't a hopeless case.

As for the "not caring" thing, do you have the time to take out of your day and think about everyone in the world who has died that you've never even met before? Cause I know I sure as hell don't. Why should Kayaba care about people he doesn't even know?
Of course he intended to kill people. He set up the Nerve-gear to kill them, and trapped them in a death game. If he didn't want to kill people in SAO, he would have set it up so they didn't really die. The game was geared so that people would try to free themselves, but so that most of them would die in the process. There's really no way to say that Kayaba did not intend to kill people that is not laughable.

Kayaba didn't care about the lives of his victims, and that's why he was able to use them in the way he did. If you did the same as him, you'd also be a villain responsible for 4000 deaths. Trapping people in a death game and not caring about the lives of one's victims is very much not the same thing as not caring about people you have no connection to who may be dying somewhere in the world.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Primal human nature is savage and selfish, law is just something created by the weaker people to give them power over the strong and it's just been generally accepted by everyone now.
Really? That seems a very simplistic and silly view of law and of humans. I'd say that law is one method for regulating the conduct of large groups of people. By living in society, people as a whole can potentially gain huge benefits. Might be nice for you to imagine that humans and law can be boiled down to "Uggg! Me strong! Me smash heads with rocks!" and "Ugg! Me weak! Me no like one who smashes head with rocks, so me invent...law! Now me have all the power!" but things are waaaaay more complicated than that.
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Old 2012-12-21, 08:41   Link #25
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Because there are people who accept nonsense like this, is the reason why the world is fucked up.
Fortunately, I live in a country where this madness is outlawed and the absolute majority doesn't accept it.
Nonsense?

Is it nonsense, that the world was thrown into a financial crisis by some 100 bank managers?

Is it nonsense, that in Africa people die, because of hunger while for example Mc Donalds throws away their food 15 minutes after they had prepared it?

Is it nonsense, that all wars around the world are started by selfish desires of the governments?

And pls, what is done against that? Or to say it better, does that show any results at all?

As long as people have the might who support this way of acting, things won't change.

And unfortunately once people with other ideals have the might they quickly succumb to that might aswell; recent example: Egypt...

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I disagree. Recall how he regarded Asuna when she died by his sword... he just shruggs it off. He doesnt care that he just killed someone. No the only thing that caught his attention that she was able to move when logically she shouldn't have been able too. The same goes for after he "killed" kirito; he showed no remorse, emotion or care that he just committed murder. He is just cold and unfeeling. Heck if actually DID care about their lives, he would not have started this death game in the first place. He does not get satisfaction out of killing, but he has no remorse for it either.

Frankly, what you saw with heathcliff was more than likely nothing more than just an act. Afterall he was playing the role of the great leader and as such a leader must show compassion for his men. Heck under his command not a single player had to die as he could have just told them to sit back while he and his immortal body did all the work. His purpose as heathcliff was to keep pushing the players to risk their lives and you can't do that without pretending you care about their lives. Basically, he was just roleplaying.
Well you already mentioned the point which destroys your first paragraph in your second

As you have said, he was roleplaying and his role that he seeked for himself was the villian.

Does a real villian show pity for the people he just murdered?

In the end as Kirito stuck his sword into Kayaba, didn't you see his smile? He was smiling, because Kirito fulfilled his role in his play as hero while he fulfilled his role as villian till his death.

On the other hand pls remember the task Kirito gave Kayaba for the case that he would die in this battle: to (at least for some time) hinder Asuna's suicide. If he would be really a monster without any pity for the people living in SAO, why accept that task?

He had to show no emotion for keeping his play up and although the play in itself was madness at best, he never went out of his role...

That roleplay was also the reason for the floors with boss battles at the end: he wanted to be the final boss, the true mastermind behind all that and he wanted to be hated so that a hero could slay him.

As he said in the first episode he solely made SAO for his own enjoyment, but still he was actually part of this game and helped the people.

Quote:
Kayaba is trying to make his dream a reality and will kill anyone that poses a threat to that end goal. The NervGear hijacking is the biggest proof of this. If he really had no intention to kill then he won't put that functionality in.
Well without that function the game would not become a "real" world. That was the only purpose for it.
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Old 2012-12-21, 09:59   Link #26
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Kayaba is trying to make his dream a reality and will kill anyone that poses a threat to that end goal. The NervGear hijacking is the biggest proof of this. If he really had no intention to kill then he won't put that functionality in.
To the contrary. We've no evidence he killed anyone that actually threatened his goal. The people "threatening" it would be the police, government investigators, nosy company employees, etc." The players themselves would not constitute a threat. The nervegear hijacking was a requirement to make his dream a reality. In his mind, it's not a reality if people can up and leave whenever they, or someone on the outside can wish. It's only a reality if it conforms to the basic rules of reality such as "you die when killed", "you can't escape it" and so forth.

So, to his way of thinking, he didn't so much imprison them in a death game, as he kidnapped them away to an alternate reality. Players and people on the outside could have been cautious enough that no one died, and the kill functions he put in place were never used, and he would have been just as happy because he had his reality.
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Old 2012-12-21, 10:20   Link #27
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Would you feel anything towards killing an enemy that was trying to kill you to undo your ideals? Probably not, and even if you did it'd probably be hatred and contempt. If Kayaba showed those emotions he probably would have been irredeemable, but he didn't.
Kayaba is the villain in this scenario. He wasn't fighting a villian, He's not standing up for somekind of noble ideal, he's playing games with human lives. The idea that he can freely murder people without emotion is very messed up, since that shows that he has no guilt or remorse over his heinious actions... and that is quiet irredeemable.

Quote:
No he did not, his intention was to create a "world". People dying is a natural occurrence in a "world" so that needed to be a possibility and just like real-life it was something that happened very often.

You can throw all the blame on to Kayaba being aware of what he was doing all you want, but the fact of the matter is that none of the deaths were things he had control over after he put them in the game. They were all deaths that would occur naturally in a "world". What you're arguing is like someone dying to a wild animal on a nature reserve and then blaming the owner of the reserve being completely responsible for their death. That's just silly.

It's a "world" Kayaba created marketed on the surface as an MMO video game. It needs to be somewhat convincing for any stores to sell it in the first place.

And for another real-world comparison about Kayaba driving others towards their deaths, what you're saying is like when two countries go to war, the one responsible for all the people dying on either side are the armies' respective commanders. As if. He was just doing his duty as a guild leader.
First, not every game needs to have bosses; you can create an mmorpg without a single boss.

Second if the only reason the bosses existed was to market his world as a game, then he only needed to have them in the beta version. In the official version he could have had all of the bosses locked out and given the players free access to all 100 floors; no one would notice the bosses were missing until after the players were trapped.

Third, He also did not have to give them encouragement to fight the bosses by offering them their freedom. By taking away their freedom, their hopes, dreams, family and friends and then offering it as a prize for beating the top floor he encouraged players to put their lives at risk knowing full well that thousands of them would die in the process. Without that offer, the players would have never even bothered to fight the first boss. He himself played a role as Heathcliff to further push the players to risking their lives... this was not necessarily if all he wanted to do was create a world


Quote:
And how do you know that "playing a game with people's lives" is what Kayaba wanted? Did he ever say that? I don't think so.
Its analysis. Kayaba himself was not sure why he started all this and only gave vague reasoning behind his actions, that of wanting to create a world of his own; his floating castle in the sky. We can then combine his words with his actions and the situation he created to logically put together what he was doing... And the pieces seem to lead to him playing a game with people's lives

Quote:
It's not going to happen. You can enforce all the crime and chaos in the world as hard as you want, but completely eliminating it is realistically impossible.
Realistically impossible yes, but people will never stop trying and we will continue to condemn those that contribute to the chaos of the world... no good man would give a selfish monster like kayaba a free pass



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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Well you already mentioned the point which destroys your first paragraph in your second

As you have said, he was roleplaying and his role that he seeked for himself was the villian.

Does a real villian show pity for the people he just murdered?

He had to show no emotion for keeping his play up and although the play in itself was madness at best, he never went out of his role...

That roleplay was also the reason for the floors with boss battles at the end: he wanted to be the final boss, the true mastermind behind all that and he wanted to be hated so that a hero could slay him.
The idea that Kayaba wanted to play the role of an emotionless villian who freely murderers REAL people, is in and of itself, completely messed up. It only furthar emphasizes what a monster he is. The only way you could get away with playing such a heinous role and not be labeled a villainous monster is their was somekind of noble, greater good, kind of goal you were trying to obtain by being that monster... For instance, if a character thought they could bring about world peace by becoming a villain... but Kayaba had no noble goal; he was playing the villian just for his own personal entertianment and that means he committed murder just for his own entertainment


Quote:
In the end as Kirito stuck his sword into Kayaba, didn't you see his smile? He was smiling, because Kirito fulfilled his role in his play as hero while he fulfilled his role as villian till his death.
Kirito killed an evil vile man responsible for the death of his lover and the death of 4,000 others, along with many others inhuman offenses

Quote:
On the other hand pls remember the task Kirito gave Kayaba for the case that he would die in this battle: to (at least for some time) hinder Asuna's suicide. If he would be really a monster without any pity for the people living in SAO, why accept that task?
He was playing a game; he wanted his duel with kirito and he could get it by giving kirito something he wanted... Kayaba does not care if Asuna lives or die and thus he is free to let her live if he feels like it will give him what he wants. He just doesn't care.

Quote:
As he said in the first episode he solely made SAO for his own enjoyment, but still he was actually part of this game and helped the people.
Helping them? No. "Helping them" would be using his power to end the game in an instant. Hell with his immortality and admin powers, not a single player needed to die under his command as he had the full ability to protect them and beat all the monsters himself. No, He wasn't helping anyone; all he was doing as playing his selfish game that involved real life and death to those around him. Playing the good guild leader is just how he got his fun.
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Old 2012-12-21, 10:20   Link #28
Oroboro
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post


Kirito and Asuna seemed to be doing exactly taht when they met with him... understanding him is question why he did what he did, but then they end with encouraging his dream; the dream that killed 4,000 people. That certainly seems to be sympathizing with him. ey are driven by emotion; in a difficult situation like that you are more like to follow with your emotions than logic. Kirito's was RAGING against Heathcliff just moments ago, and saw the love of his life die, and now he was dealing with the fact that both he and his lover and now dead and their happy lives are at and end... And kirito bares no ill will towards the man that killed them and 4000 others? No his emotions



First, most people are not driven by logic, th should not just drop off the face of the earth like that.

Furtharmore, they went as far as symapthize with his dream as if they were letting Kayaba die happy. No after the terrible things he had down I would at least die with regret, guilt or anything. In a sense, it would have been better for kirito to say NOTHING rather than for him to go on a sympathize with the dream that killed thousands. Heck right after Kayaba leaves Kirito and Asuna are crying over the end of their lives, and yet they just let their murderer walk away without a single nasty word, but instead with word's that seemed more meant to give him some final satisfaction

\
Wow, this thread blew up a bunch while I was sleeping.

I don't have time to say much, but I'll say I think you're severely misreading Kirito's and Asuna's reactions in episode 14. They aren't sympathizing with Kayaba's dream. They are empathizing with it. The dream itself was never evil. Only the methods used to achieve it.

And again, that they had just won, saving the lives of the 6000 other people at the cost of their own. Kirito volunteered to fight Kayaba then and there, he knew full well what he was getting into and what the consequences might be for himself.

Last edited by Oroboro; 2012-12-21 at 10:38.
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Old 2012-12-21, 13:11   Link #29
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I think this is a good idea to post this..

funny how the guy is also a hologram

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vax6ipkgGz8

..
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Old 2012-12-21, 13:59   Link #30
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Kayaba is the villain in this scenario. He wasn't fighting a villian, He's not standing up for somekind of noble ideal, he's playing games with human lives. The idea that he can freely murder people without emotion is very messed up, since that shows that he has no guilt or remorse over his heinious actions... and that is quiet irredeemable.
So just because Kirito's the main character of the story that means what Kayaba was doing is villainous? Try looking at it from Kayaba's perspective for once, if he was killed by anyone that would completely destroy all of his ideals and his world along with it. He only came to the conclusion that Kirito needed to be killed in order to defend himself and his world.

The "creating and preserving a world" goal is not villainous. Folks are just using the excuse that people have died for the sake creating this "world" as a means to label him as a villain.

Quote:
First, not every game needs to have bosses; you can create an mmorpg without a single boss.
I wonder if you can give an example of an MMORPG without boss fights? Because I seriously doubt that's likely.

Quote:
Second if the only reason the bosses existed was to market his world as a game, then he only needed to have them in the beta version. In the official version he could have had all of the bosses locked out and given the players free access to all 100 floors; no one would notice the bosses were missing until after the players were trapped.
Then everyone would just leave on their own, making his hopes for a "world" entirely pointless. He needed to be able to keep the people in there somehow. Threat of death is unfortunately one of the most efficient things because humans have a self-preservation instinct.

Quote:
Third, He also did not have to give them encouragement to fight the bosses by offering them their freedom. By taking away their freedom, their hopes, dreams, family and friends and then offering it as a prize for beating the top floor he encouraged players to put their lives at risk knowing full well that thousands of them would die in the process. Without that offer, the players would have never even bothered to fight the first boss. He himself played a role as Heathcliff to further push the players to risking their lives... this was not necessarily if all he wanted to do was create a world
But by creating a "world", doesn't that give people an opportunity to make new hopes, dreams, family and friends? Hell it happened with Kirito, he made many new friends and even met the love of his life here. And there was a question that was posed partway though, "once the people get used to it, why would they even want to go back to the real world in he first place?"

And his only reason for proposing people they could escape by reaching the top floor was because if he didn't it's likely everyone would have just cowered in the starting city. He needed people to go out and think less of this place as "prison" and more of a "world".


Quote:
Its analysis. Kayaba himself was not sure why he started all this and only gave vague reasoning behind his actions, that of wanting to create a world of his own; his floating castle in the sky. We can then combine his words with his actions and the situation he created to logically put together what he was doing... And the pieces seem to lead to him playing a game with people's lives
No. His goal was to create a "world". That's all it was. You're just saying he was playing with people's lives because you want to make your point that he's an "irredeemable monster" correct. Sure his "I don't really remember" line was kind of bullshit, but that hardly suggests him being a guy playing games with people's lives.

Also if his goal was to play with lives as you say, wouldn't he be entertained by it? He's never shown any satisfaction or amusement towards anyone dying. A person entertained by this wouldn't just go "meh, whatever".

Quote:
Realistically impossible yes, but people will never stop trying and we will continue to condemn those that contribute to the chaos of the world... no good man would give a selfish monster like kayaba a free pass
Oh he would need to be punished yes indeed, but at the same time I would give him the opportunity for redemption because he shows the promise of doing so. (And in fact, has already done so in the series' storyline.)


Overall it just seems to me you can't empathize with Kayaba's goal to "create a world". Death is something necessary in a world so it needed to be there. Struggle is something necessary in a "world" so it needed to be there. You know what? The good things about a "world" were there too, and Kirito even experienced it himself first hand. I'd say if you were in Kayaba's "world" and all you saw was a "death game devised by some human monster", then you're completely missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I think this is a good idea to post this..

funny how the guy is also a hologram

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vax6ipkgGz8

..
This scene is perfect for the debate at hand. Thank you sir.~
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Last edited by SilverSyko; 2012-12-21 at 14:12.
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Old 2012-12-21, 15:04   Link #31
Clarste
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Something that seems to be lost here is that Kayaba was trying to create a narrative, in addition to creating his world. He said as much when Kirito revealed him after the 75th floor boss fight. He wanted to create a dramatic story with a hero and a villain. He was of course playing the role of the villain. So trying to understand him as "the hero of his own story" is a bit misguided because he was literally the villain of his own story. He never saw himself as anything but that. Furthermore, I don't think it's reasonable to argue that he actually cared about anyone's lives. Obviously he wouldn't have done any of this if he thought other people's lives had much value.

On the other hand, it's still true that his story didn't require anyone to die. It would have been miraculous, but they theoretically could have gotten out with no deaths at all. And, honestly, maybe that would have been a better story. More heroic, more epic. Of course, to keep the drama there needed to be real danger, otherwise people would think "it's just a game" and not care what happens. In fact, that exact thing happened in ALO, where a large portion of the audience suddenly stopped caring, and the players themselves hardly care about all the faction drama they're shoveling around.

So... overall I'd say it's wrong to look at him as "playing with people's lives", but it's also wrong to look at him as completely indifferent. I think he sees himself as something like the director of a movie, except much less involved. The host of a game show? Well, the obvious answer is that he sees himself as a god. Above other people, but still looking down on them with interest. He cares about their stories, he cares about their lives, he just doesn't care how they end.
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Old 2012-12-21, 15:33   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono
To the contrary. We've no evidence he killed anyone that actually threatened his goal. The people "threatening" it would be the police, government investigators, nosy company employees, etc." The players themselves would not constitute a threat. The nervegear hijacking was a requirement to make his dream a reality. In his mind, it's not a reality if people can up and leave whenever they, or someone on the outside can wish. It's only a reality if it conforms to the basic rules of reality such as "you die when killed", "you can't escape it" and so forth.

So, to his way of thinking, he didn't so much imprison them in a death game, as he kidnapped them away to an alternate reality. Players and people on the outside could have been cautious enough that no one died, and the kill functions he put in place were never used, and he would have been just as happy because he had his reality.
Players trying to escape his game is threat enough. You need people to inhabit a world, and if these people refuse, then that world is at risk of being incomplete. Human psychology dooms the early ones that died due to not heeding the warning, they were never going to make it under the circumstances. Kayaba set it up to make an example out of them. And yes, it's ultimately Kayaba, even though the ones acting stupid are the players and the people outside. If anything, it shows that Kayaba has a good enough understanding of the human psyche to manipulate them.
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Old 2012-12-21, 15:52   Link #33
Oroboro
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There's an excellent bit of narration from the novel that highlights this perfectly, and is the other main reason Kirito figured out heathcliffs identity.

Spoiler for Light novel inner monologue:
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Old 2012-12-21, 15:52   Link #34
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Players trying to escape his game is threat enough. You need people to inhabit a world, and if these people refuse, then that world is at risk of being incomplete. Human psychology dooms the early ones that died due to not heeding the warning, they were never going to make it under the circumstances. Kayaba set it up to make an example out of them. And yes, it's ultimately Kayaba, even though the ones acting stupid are the players and the people outside. If anything, it shows that Kayaba has a good enough understanding of the human psyche to manipulate them.
Uh, no. Them escaping is not a threat. He's the one who gave them an escape route, after all. If he didn't want them to escape he could have just not added that rule. Or, if he wanted them to be motivated in the same way, just lied about it. In the end though, he kept his promise and freed them after losing as the final boss. And, well, he made the promise to Kirito in the first place. All evidence points directly towards "them escaping is not a threat to him". It's just part of the story he wanted to tell, in the world he created to tell it.
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Old 2012-12-21, 16:17   Link #35
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Wow, this thread blew up a bunch while I was sleeping.

I don't have time to say much, but I'll say I think you're severely misreading Kirito's and Asuna's reactions in episode 14. They aren't sympathizing with Kayaba's dream. They are empathizing with it. The dream itself was never evil. Only the methods used to achieve it.
No, they went beyond just trying to understand him; with their words it seemed as though they were trying to give him final comfort and actually reflect his feelings; the same feelings that drove him to trap 10,000 poeple in a death game. This is further emphasized by the fact they they show not the slightest bit of negative emotion for him. Frankly, most anyone else would atleast be quite upset with him.

Quote:
And again, that they had just won, saving the lives of the 6000 other people at the cost of their own. Kirito volunteered to fight Kayaba then and there, he knew full well what he was getting into and what the consequences might be for himself.
So? That doesn't make what Kayaba did any better.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
So just because Kirito's the main character of the story that means what Kayaba was doing is villainous? Try looking at it from Kayaba's perspective for once, if he was killed by anyone that would completely destroy all of his ideals and his world along with it. He only came to the conclusion that Kirito needed to be killed in order to defend himself and his world.

The "creating and preserving a world" goal is not villainous. Folks are just using the excuse that people have died for the sake creating this "world" as a means to label him as a villain.
In correct. Kayaba specifically designed his world to be deleted with him and he had the power of immortality in the world that could keep him alive. If all he wanted to do was preserves his world, he would not included a code to destory the world, nor would he remove his immortality. What does this tell us? Dying was PART of goals. He Knew dying was an option and was fully prepared and ready for it. He wanted to tell an epic story where the hero fights and villain and knew full well what that meant for him. He was protecting nothing; he was just roleplaying

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I wonder if you can give an example of an MMORPG without boss fights? Because I seriously doubt that's likely.
Off the top of my head I can not, but just because every game includes them doesn't make them a requirement. Leveling itself is also not a requirement but mmorpg's have gone without.

Quote:
Then everyone would just leave on their own, making his hopes for a "world" entirely pointless. He needed to be able to keep the people in there somehow. Threat of death is unfortunately one of the most efficient things because humans have a self-preservation instinct.
How? I said the floors would be unlocked and never said the exit would be unlocked. Kayaba didn't have to give them a way to escape, he did not have togive them a reason to risk their lives against incredibly strong and deadly bosses. He could have simply locked up the world and thrown away the key. They would be trapped and forced to just live in his world

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But by creating a "world", doesn't that give people an opportunity to make new hopes, dreams, family and friends? Hell it happened with Kirito, he made many new friends and even met the love of his life here. And there was a question that was posed partway though, "once the people get used to it, why would they even want to go back to the real world in he first place?"
Perhaps, but it comes at the costs of everything they once had, and everything they could have had had they never got trapped in the game. Its a high price that everyone was FORCED to pay... and those 4000 that died didn't get new dreams and memories as their lives came to a very premature end. Heck Asuna herself showed us why they could not just stay there since they were all actually sleeping on hositoal beds being kept alive through life support. And even if poeple got used to it, they WOULD still want to go back if they could as they never wanted to leave in the first place; they will never forget the friends and family that was stolen from them. That's why kayaba knew that the offer a freedom would drive them to risk their lives; their former lives and freedom were THAT valuable.

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And his only reason for proposing people they could escape by reaching the top floor was because if he didn't it's likely everyone would have just cowered in the starting city. He needed people to go out and think less of this place as "prison" and more of a "world".
Not likely... eventually people would get bored and that would lead to them looking for something to do, which they might find plenty to do if they could go to any floor. Kinda like that Fisherman guy; he wasn't out fighting monsters, he just found a spot to go fishing all day. Heck Kayaba could have even made the world a lot less dangerous by making the monsters no more dangerous than most common animals. Its possible to die, but not as likely. There was no reason for this world to be as lethal as it was.


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No. His goal was to create a "world". That's all it was. You're just saying he was playing with people's lives because you want to make your point that he's an "irredeemable monster" correct. Sure his "I don't really remember" line was kind of bullshit, but that hardly suggests him being a guy playing games with people's lives.
As explained there was no reason for the death game; no reason for the bosses, no reason for the grand prize of freedom at the end, no reason to actively encourage players to risk their lives, or even reason to make the world as dangerous as it was. There was also no reason for him to became a guild leader in the world with the aim of revealing himself to be the final boss once they got to the top; he himself took a role in manipulating them to keep them fighting. He could have had a world without these elements, but he included them. As Clarste said, Kayaba wasn't just creating a world he was creating a narrative; one he knew would lead to the deaths of many poeple. Thousands of deaths to fulfill his desires

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Also if his goal was to play with lives as you say, wouldn't he be entertained by it? He's never shown any satisfaction or amusement towards anyone dying. A person entertained by this wouldn't just go "meh, whatever".
Who says he wasn't entertained. Not every game makes a person smile and laugh. I mean when I play an rpg i don't actually look like I'm enjoying myself, but I am(the look on my face says "meh, whatever", but in truth I am enjoying it). I might enjoy the combat system, enjoy the strategy in battle and I could be intrigued by the story. Not every game is gonna make me laugh out loud or have me grinning from ear to ear, or even spark my competitive side. Heck, think about when someone is playing a puzzle game; number one look their might be frustration, but that doesn't mean they are not enjoying themselves. Heck people get scared watching scary movies, you think they are not entertained just because they are not laughing? Or hell, what about crying; I absolutely love it when a movie makes me so sad I want to cry. There are MANY ways to get satisfation out of game, some which are more obvious than others.



Quote:
Oh he would need to be punished yes indeed, but at the same time I would give him the opportunity for redemption because he shows the promise of doing so. (And in fact, has already done so in the series' storyline.)


Overall it just seems to me you can't empathize with Kayaba's goal to "create a world". Death is something necessary in a world so it needed to be there. Struggle is something necessary in a "world" so it needed to be there. You know what? The good things about a "world" were there too, and Kirito even experienced it himself first hand. I'd say if you were in Kayaba's "world" and all you saw was a "death game devised by some human monster", then you're completely missing the point.
I understand full well the desire to make a world. But not only does his desires not excuse the inhuman things he did, his actions and choices says he was doing MORE than just make a world...

Quote:
This scene is perfect for the debate at hand. Thank you sir.~
Yes it is; perfect for showing why Kayaba should be "deleted"


Though it's an imperfect example. First off the murderous doctor in that scene killed thousands of people but supposedly he did it for good reasons. What he did was immoral and unethical, but he ultimately had good intentions in that he knew his research would more than make up for all the harm he caused and go on to help millions. You can see why people would condemn him, but you can also see how some might try to defend his actions. It makes his situation more complicated... Kayaba however, had only selfish reasons for what he did. He created his own personal world which included the suffering of 10,000 innocent people and toyed with their lives for his own personal satisfaction. How can you defend such a pure act of selfishness?


Futharmore, the scene shows the intense tension that the doctor feels as he considers what the murderous doctor says. He see's some logic in what he says, but his feelings for what he has done can not be ignored and it causes inner conflict for him. Kirito showed no such inner conflict when he met with kayaba in ALO... like i said, meetings like this are complicated as new and old feelings conflict; if he helps you out and you hate the guy for what he did in the past, you won't know whether to thank him or punch him in the face... to not have that sense of tension means to ignore the horrible things he's done in the past
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Old 2012-12-21, 16:56   Link #36
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Uh, no. Them escaping is not a threat. He's the one who gave them an escape route, after all. If he didn't want them to escape he could have just not added that rule. Or, if he wanted them to be motivated in the same way, just lied about it. In the end though, he kept his promise and freed them after losing as the final boss. And, well, he made the promise to Kirito in the first place. All evidence points directly towards "them escaping is not a threat to him". It's just part of the story he wanted to tell, in the world he created to tell it.
Just a post ago, you were talking about "narrative" and what happened in ALO when everyone isn't bound to the world like SAO. Kayaba needs to keep his fantasy going, so he can't allow a way out that isn't by the rules he created. You must have heard stories about criminals kidnapping people to recreate or fantasize a certain critical moments or desires in their lives and how they react when their victims didn't play along. I see this as akin to that.
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Old 2012-12-21, 16:58   Link #37
Oroboro
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At this point the discussion becomes more about Kirito. Both times he met the man, he had just gotten out of an intense battle. So adrenaline drains away. Kirito really doesn't have much of a personal reason to get pissed off and indignant towards Kayba. He had his moment of playing the hero and getting back at him for everyone else's sake. Afterwords, he freed everyone else, at the presumed cost of his life, and he was granted a few final moments with the one he loved. He asked Kayaba "Why?", Kayaba gave his answer, and Kirito likely saw a bit of himself in that dream.

But like he said to Sugou a dozen episodes later, "I never wanted to be him." And their exchange after ALO was more bewildered than anything. "Aren't you dead?" "Yep." "K... Thanks I guess." "It's not like I like you or anything. Here, take this." "Neat."

Kirito doesn't really have a personal reason to hate the guy. It might sound selfish, but Kirito already took it upon himself to fight for everyone else's sake. He won. That battle is over, and finished. Why dwell on it?
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Old 2012-12-22, 06:59   Link #38
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Just a post ago, you were talking about "narrative" and what happened in ALO when everyone isn't bound to the world like SAO. Kayaba needs to keep his fantasy going, so he can't allow a way out that isn't by the rules he created. You must have heard stories about criminals kidnapping people to recreate or fantasize a certain critical moments or desires in their lives and how they react when their victims didn't play along. I see this as akin to that.
Maybe I misunderstood what you were talking about then. He wants them to escape, because that's directly part of his narrative. The game itself is an escape. He certainly wouldn't approve of them bypassing the dungeons and just logging out safely, but fighting their way out with everything they've got is exactly what he wants. Cowering in town is also what he wants though.

Um... I was also sort of indirectly responding to an earlier idea that Kayaba was treating Kirito like a threat, which I don't think is true at all. Kirito is his greatest achievement, really. The true hero born from Kayaba's world. I think Kayaba's honestly kind of proud of him.
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Old 2012-12-22, 22:39   Link #39
Swordstriker21
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Look here people. Bottom line is that what Kayaba wanted to create was another world. Another complete and functioning reality. Only difference is that it had monsters, dungeons, a floating castle and other mmorpg stuff in it. If this was the case then of course the element of death will be inevitably present. I mean thousands die in reality every single day either by natural or not so natural causes. You guys are free to paint the real world as a peaceful utopia but unfortunately that's not the case (and it never has). So killing people was definitely not Kayaba's goal. It's just that it was a necessary element in order to create another functioning reality. And it's not like they absolutely had to hunt monsters or traverse dungeons to survive. They could actually settle down in a lower floor away from the front lines and live relatively peaceful lives like those fishermen. If Kayaba wanted only a pure death game then these things should not have been made possible and people should have been under constant threat of death. In the end though one of the greatest threats to human lives in SAO were humans themselves (i.e. Laughing Coffin).
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Old 2012-12-23, 00:34   Link #40
Dauerlutscher
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I'm surprised how hard some people are trying to justify what Kayaba did.
Real life is real life and we have absolutelsy no choise but to live in it and accept death. In reall life death is unavoidable and it will get everyone sooner or later.

The difference to real life is that Kayaba had always th option, because he was basically God in this game.
With power comes responsibility. Kayaba had the power of life and death. Kayaba created this fucking game after all. He gave himself the right to force people to play this game and he put the threat of really dying in his game despite having the option to not do that. The argument that he wanted to make it just like real life is absurd and absolutely no excuse for that. He is responsible for all the deaths simply because he is the one that made death possible knowing very well that people will die. He had the power to end this nonsense and spare people lifes, but he simply didn't care.
It's like me kidnapping people to a fucking island full of carnivores and then force those people to live there. I have the power to end the dying but i just don't do it because i want to hawe my own little world. There is nothing that can excuse or justify that.
And yeah, I find it disgusting how people are trying to justify/excuse or seem to be ok with what he did because " yeah , he wanted to creat a game that is like like real world and he had to add death on it". I can just facpalm when I read something like that.
Besides, where is the reast of "like real life"? Where is the feeling of pain and where is rape and the other crap that people have to deal with in real life?Why just stop with allowing death and not the rest? where is the line crossed and it is not acceptable anymore?


@Swordstriker21
Sure, people should just have accepted that some guy forced them in this game and they should have just settled down. It's theire own fault that they want to go back to reality. It's their own damn fault that they want to go back to their families, lovers, friends and how could they even dare to oppose God(Kayaba). Kayaba was absolutely right with hindering them to escape.
All people in the world that are under oppression should just accept it and settle down because fighting for thier right of freedon will lead to death.
I hope the sarcasm is clear.

@Read my post againg, then think about about what I was saying, and how I was saying it and think about the context of it before you make posts like this. Thank you.
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