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Old 2012-12-22, 08:37   Link #31481
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's less that, and more that I can't empathize with his/her supposed pain if I don't understand where it's coming from. All the pieces were supposedly in place by the time where we stop, yet Yasu's attitude in no way portrays him/her the way he/she apparently wants us to see him/her two years later. So either Yasu experienced some profoundly life-altering pain that we get barely any elaboration on (enough to, maybe, sort of, make a guess), or didn't and then we're left wondering what the hell the motive was for writing what he/she wrote.

It doesn't help that the justifications we do have are pretty much the most pathetically petty things, or things which seriously don't matter that much and seem odd to flip out over. Yet the story has gone to such length to try to discount petty motivation, but refuses to provide something more substantial.

It leaves Yasu a flimsy character... not that he/she wasn't to begin with, but at least some effort is being put in to try to sync up the person we're seeing with the person whose writings we're already familiar with. And then that effort sort of trails off right when it was getting good. If Ryukishi wanted the character to be fully relatable, he failed by being too vague right at the point where he was bringing everything toward a single conception of the character as a full person.

Now, maybe that's the point, designed to make us question whether they could really become that kind of person... but it's kind of a weak point and it causes some retroactive damage to the story that he could've repaired had he continued along with his elaboration. Essentially, if the goal was to make me buy this character as a culprit it was a miserable failure because it didn't push far enough to the genesis of whatever murderous instinct arose; and if the goal was to get me to believe this character is scapegoating themselves, I'm not clear on who they're scapegoating for, why, or when they decided to go forward with that.

Pretty much the worst-realized character in the VN when he/she needed to be the best, or at least one of the best. Quite honestly, every other character in ep7 came across better, which is a travesty considered we supposedly have six episodes of indirect development for this person. Like a half-complete jigsaw puzzle, and half the pieces are from the wrong one.
Will seems to think the other episodes provided it but, considering what Yasu did, to justify it we would need a bit more about her drama and her reaction to it than just the bits we had in the previous episodes.

Ep 7 makes things worse because it portray Yasu in such a gentle light it's hard to think she would go and murder everyone.

Not mentioning the wound and the gender identity issues that probably were a big problem for her are so barely brushed one might miss them completely.

Honestly, if Yasu isn't the murderer in Prime, I don't think she's scapegoating for someone. I think that due to a setting of facts she ended up being a scapegoat.

Really, I've a hard time believing she would do something so horrible as to kill so many person but I have equal hard time into believing she would make something so kind as to take the blame for all the mess for someone else.

She doesn't come out evil enough or kind enough for either of the two things.

Spoiler for Spoilers for Ep 8 chap 10 manga version:


Oh and by the way...

Spoiler for Spoilers for Ep 8 chap 9 manga version:

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-12-22 at 11:26.
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Old 2012-12-22, 11:42   Link #31482
Renall
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There's a significant disconnect between her goals, motivations, backstory, and methodology and the necessity of actually killing anyone. In the stories (and in Our Confession), Yasu begins with the idea of convincing people to do things with threats and bribery and then... actually kills them.

But wants to be stopped.

But if stopped after the First Twilight, those people have still been brutally murdered.

So she wants to be stopped enough that she will give them the chance to prevent any deaths whatsoever, but after that? Screw it.

That just seems... off, somehow.
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Old 2012-12-22, 13:41   Link #31483
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's a significant disconnect between her goals, motivations, backstory, and methodology and the necessity of actually killing anyone. In the stories (and in Our Confession), Yasu begins with the idea of convincing people to do things with threats and bribery and then... actually kills them.

But wants to be stopped.

But if stopped after the First Twilight, those people have still been brutally murdered.

So she wants to be stopped enough that she will give them the chance to prevent any deaths whatsoever, but after that? Screw it.

That just seems... off, somehow.
According to an interview Ryukishi said something along the line of how criminals wants to be stopped... which is fine and dandy if Yasu were to be a psycopath criminal and we could say bye to the heart.

No, the problem with Yasu is she came out insane.

Let's compare it with Kyrie. She said she wanted to kill Asumu because Asumu was a source of pain to her. It has a logic on its own as once Asumu is out of the picture she can marry Rudolf as she actually did if she was smart enough not to get caught.

If we want to give Kyrie more moral values we can assume she too wanted to be stopped and it can work because if she were to be stopped fast enough no harm would be done.

Now let's take Yasu:
By bribing and threatening she starts already to make harm.
The method of killing isn't practical, it doesn't imply she wanted to be stopped. It's insane.
The purpose for all of it? Basically she destroy her whole world, herself included if she have success. I wouldn't call this an improvement toward happiness.
If she fails her life will worsen.
That's real there's people who kill his whole family and then kill themselves for... reason X both in real life and movies (let's pick up "Seven" for example in which the murderer in the end purposely cause his own dead) but this sort of people is presented as insane.
We aren't asked to understand the heart of this guy. This guy had something wrong right from the beginning so, even if he has 'reasons' to do what he did, in the end the main cause is he's not thinking straight.
Even if this guy had a really sad, tragical story, this wouldn't be justification enough to say he's sane in what he does.
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Old 2012-12-22, 13:53   Link #31484
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I'm not sure it's fair to say you can't understand someone just because they're delusional; considering the amount of time that is spent telling us all about the constructs of Yasu's imagination (probably 50% of the whole Umineko cast can be counted under that somehow) and that we have a pretty good idea what exactly her delusions consist of, I personally find the motive reasonably satisfying and understandable. But, I know that most people here aren't able to accept that Yasu genuinely believes in magic or that she thinks the ceremony will accomplish anything. Of course, it's entirely possible that the motive only applies to PieceYasu in the first place, though it doesn't really make much difference to me whether she did anything in Prime or not.
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:11   Link #31485
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I'm not sure it's fair to say you can't understand someone just because they're delusional; considering the amount of time that is spent telling us all about the constructs of Yasu's imagination (probably 50% of the whole Umineko cast can be counted under that somehow) and that we have a pretty good idea what exactly her delusions consist of, I personally find the motive reasonably satisfying and understandable. But, I know that most people here aren't able to accept that Yasu genuinely believes in magic or that she thinks the ceremony will accomplish anything. Of course, it's entirely possible that the motive only applies to PieceYasu in the first place, though it doesn't really make much difference to me whether she did anything in Prime or not.
If Yasu really believed by killing people she would send them on the golden land then she's somehow excusable by the ill intent as she didn't really believe she was doing any harm but this doesn't make her sane.
Also somehow I've hard time into believing she believed in magic as it's not with magic she killed people she only made it look like she used magic by using tricks.

It's Maria who had more chances of honestly believe that they would all go into the golden land as in plenty of instances she tries using magic to get what she wants (see her uhhh uhhh sound) and, when in doubt, she was in denial of everything that seemed to deny her magic theory.
Also people around her often fed her delusion so that she could really believe magic truly existed.

And yes, by what Umineko says it's possible to figure out part of Yasu, how a side of her wanted to hope and another was disilluded, how she longed for someone who loved her, how she felt inferior, how she was still hung up on Battler despite George.
The problem is when we're asked to accept that due to all this it was okay for her to murder everyone.

There's to say Ryukishi in an interview confirmed there's madness in Yasu.
Problem is this level of madness goes out the reasoning range.

So... if she orchestrated a game, either by writing a story and handing it to Battler or by finding a way to make people play it with or without Battler knowing it was a game and then something went wrong and people died it can still be in the boundaries of reasonable.

But if she really went on a murdering spee that ended with her death and the destruction of half of Rokkenjima... then she wasn't thinking straight in a way that goes beyond what is acceptable.


By the way on the Umineko Wikia I've found this... but I can't remember reading it in Umineko.
Someone knows from where it comes from?

Quote:
The Truth


In all stories, there is a single truth.
Within all hearts, there is a single truth.
The girl with the golden hair; the magic she once spun, has come to an end.
The illusion is dead.
The lies have been brought to beg mercy.
The witch has tired of the Golden Land.
One sin has brought much pain and suffering...
And now the child has made her choice.
The Witch has been revived.
But as other witches, she had died after a thousand years of boredom.
No...
She has stopped thinking.
She has stopped loving.
She has loved, so she has seen,
A thousand years. Two days. It's all the same.
But for her, the gold has already withered away.
No longer will she wait.
Her task is now done.

Sleep well, most beloved witch. Your name shall praised.
But it will be your true name we shall forever shed a tear for.

Sleep well, most beloved Yasuda; sleep well, most beloved Lion.

"There will be no happing ending."
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:16   Link #31486
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Well, I think the issue is that you are looking for a motive that is "acceptable". The fact is that there is nothing that can ever make a mass murder acceptable. But it can be understandable, and even forgivable, and I personally find this to be the case (though of course I know that plenty of people don't).

Also, I don't really see the fact that she used tricks as proof that she doesn't believe in magic; it's the sort of magic that is described over and over again, the kind that becomes real when people believe in it. So while she was using tricks, she hoped that by making everyone believe in the witch, it would make the magic real. Basically what the EP1 tea party was saying.
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:17   Link #31487
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Now let's take Yasu:
By bribing and threatening she starts already to make harm.
The method of killing isn't practical, it doesn't imply she wanted to be stopped. It's insane.
The purpose for all of it? Basically she destroy her whole world, herself included if she have success. I wouldn't call this an improvement toward happiness.
If she fails her life will worsen.
If he/she succeeds his/her life will be worse off. There is literally no winning scenario that is rationally plausible. Saying "well, that's the chance of a miracle!" is nothing more than justification for evil by a person who in fact knows what they are doing is morally wrong.

So, Yasu is evil. I can understand that, but I refuse to sympathize with a coward who intentionally created an environment in which their own life would become worse and the lives of everyone they've ever cared about would as well. Fuck Yasu.
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I'm not sure it's fair to say you can't understand someone just because they're delusional; considering the amount of time that is spent telling us all about the constructs of Yasu's imagination (probably 50% of the whole Umineko cast can be counted under that somehow) and that we have a pretty good idea what exactly her delusions consist of, I personally find the motive reasonably satisfying and understandable. But, I know that most people here aren't able to accept that Yasu genuinely believes in magic or that she thinks the ceremony will accomplish anything. Of course, it's entirely possible that the motive only applies to PieceYasu in the first place, though it doesn't really make much difference to me whether she did anything in Prime or not.
Yasu knows that his/her actions are wrong. That is why Yasu wants to be stopped. These acts are evil. No matter how lost this person is in his or her own imagination, they're sane enough to understand that. Even if we accept full-on lunacy and a belief that everything will be okay in the Golden Land, this is a person who in fact knows that (1) killing is morally wrong, and (2) it's wrong to attempt to force on other people a way to live (or die). To then tell me this person is a culprit even so leads me to conclude they are an enormous hypocrite and coward who is in no way deserving of any sympathy or understanding. Their "heart" is black and rotten and deserves to be crushed until the poison seeps out and melts into the unfeeling earth. They deserve to be exposed, mocked, and promptly forgotten, and their victims vindicated.

And that would be a pretty lousy conclusion to draw, I think, but necessary in such a circumstance. So I choose to believe Yasu's innocence because it's the only way I can possibly feel anything for the character. And I already hate the character for ruining a better one, so I'm seriously giving him/her as much benefit of the doubt as the story will allow. Because the alternative is a monster that deserved all the righteous anger early Meta-Battler threw out. We're supposed to believe otherwise, because he came to believe otherwise, right?
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:46   Link #31488
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I kind of get the impression that Ryukishi was fully aware that a lot of people would feel that way, though. You say you "refuse to sympathise" with her, but I don't think Ryukishi would begrudge you that. After all, this is the person who wrote that only one in a thousand people would be able to understand Clair's heart, and (in Our Confession) that it didn't matter whether the reader's feelings towards Beatrice were love or anger.

I personally feel like I can understand Yasu's conflict of purposes, her committing the murders despite knowing deep down that it was wrong, that she knew that the chances were that she was doing something awful but that she was so hopeless that she felt she could do nothing more than pray for a miracle.

I feel like I am at a point where I can feel pity rather than loathing for Yasu for her foolish decisions and poor judgment. But I don't expect everyone else to be able to feel that same level of compassion. And that's why I understand the desire to theorise about Yasu not being the culprit in reality, and heck, it's certainly possible and I enjoy speculating about it too. But to be honest, deep down I don't really think it's what Ryukishi intended; when I read interviews I get the impression that he wanted people to be able to understand Yasu even though she WAS a mass murderer, not to try and think of ways that she might not have been. After all, trying to understand why people do terrible things, even if you cannot condone them, is a huge theme in all Ryukishi's works.
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:50   Link #31489
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If he wanted that, he shouldn't have pushed the "nothing to gain" angle so hard. If a person truly has nothing to gain from evil and does it anyway, there's simply something about them that isn't particularly human.

What could be "gained" doesn't necessarily need to be something of substance, but it ought to at least make sense. For example, the Golden Land is portrayed as an acceptable substitute for everyone existing as they are, but not really pushed as a superior option. At least if Yasu were so convinced that the family cannot be saved in any other way that sort of thing could be seen as a motive that is actually somewhat selfless, if dangerously deluded.

But I don't see why anyone should sympathize with "Eh, this works. Or not doing it, that works. Or partially doing it, that also works." That's a really wishy-washy desire. We either want the culprit's desire to be something that must be thwarted, or be sympathetic to it as something that is desirable while regretting their attempts at obtaining it through acts of evil. I just don't care why Yasu thinks anything he/she is doing is right, because Yasu doesn't seem all that committed to any particular outcome either.
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Old 2012-12-22, 16:03   Link #31490
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Eh, that's fair enough. I'll concede that Ryukishi could have definitely done it better, although I do still find a lot of beauty in the last parts of EP7 regardless. But he could certainly have made it more clear exactly how Yasu imagined the Golden Land and he could have given Yasu better reasons for her deep feelings of hopelessness and resignation than he did. I guess I'm just able to appreciate the point he was making even if he did it in a flawed way, and that's kind of how I feel about a lot of Umineko in general.

I do think it needs to be stressed that Yasu did definitely go down a path that was wrong, and this was illustrated very well in that one scene with Ange and Sakutaro in EP4. I talked about it a while ago here, but I do tend to see this as the turning point for Yasu. She clearly made a big mistake here when she agreed to teach Maria 'black magic', and I think this mistake is what led her way of thinking to the point where she would eventually commit the murders.
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Old 2012-12-22, 19:46   Link #31491
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Eh, that's fair enough. I'll concede that Ryukishi could have definitely done it better, although I do still find a lot of beauty in the last parts of EP7 regardless. But he could certainly have made it more clear exactly how Yasu imagined the Golden Land and he could have given Yasu better reasons for her deep feelings of hopelessness and resignation than he did. I guess I'm just able to appreciate the point he was making even if he did it in a flawed way, and that's kind of how I feel about a lot of Umineko in general.

I do think it needs to be stressed that Yasu did definitely go down a path that was wrong, and this was illustrated very well in that one scene with Ange and Sakutaro in EP4. I talked about it a while ago here, but I do tend to see this as the turning point for Yasu. She clearly made a big mistake here when she agreed to teach Maria 'black magic', and I think this mistake is what led her way of thinking to the point where she would eventually commit the murders.
I like to think that all Ep 4 wanted to imly is that Maria and Beato fantasized about making such things as Maria never tries to kill Rosa and it can be that PrimeYasu merely wrote mysteries in which she murdered everyone.

Anyway for me there are various problems with the way Yasu (and the people she killed) are portrayed and her motive for doing it and the idea we should 'understand' her.

What PieceYasu did is planning a quite horrible crime and executing it and we're invited to... feel love for her, to understand her motive.

To do it she needs to have a very good reason for her own actions one that can make us say: what she did was wrong but in that moment she couldn't know better.

Yet her own motive seems too vague, not strong enough to accept the horrible things she did with an 'yes, she did wrong but in that moment to her it probably seemed right'.

That's why I wanted a deep insight in her mind, to figure out how it become okay to her to kill:
- the people she, for her own admission, had judged like a mother and a father (Kumasawa and Genji) and who had always been partial toward her
- the people whom she had judged friends, with whom she had grown up, who cared for her, who loved her and whom she loved (Jessica, George and Battler)
- a child who was also her best friend (Maria) and that had never done something wrong
- 2 apparently friendly adults who're never shown taunting her or doing something against her (Hideyoshi and Kyrie)
- a doctor who's responsible only of saving her life

I won't go into the others as they did/could have done things she might have judged worth of killing them (although I've met people worse than Gohda and never killed them).

It's really annoying when I think we've a better look into Kyrie's mind when she considered to kill Asumu than into Yasu's who actually killed so many people and is one of the main characters.
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Old 2012-12-22, 20:13   Link #31492
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And I already hate the character for ruining a better one
I understand that you may not be an author, and certainly aren't the author of this series, but I am interested; what is this better character that you can see? You must have some general ideas about them or you would throw out the whole thing. Is it mostly motive?
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Old 2012-12-22, 20:22   Link #31493
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I understand that you may not be an author, and certainly aren't the author of this series, but I am interested; what is this better character that you can see? You must have some general ideas about them or you would throw out the whole thing. Is it mostly motive?
I'm referring to the original pre-Chiru Beatrice. The human behind Beatrice really needed to live up to the meta-character or it would damage both of them pretty badly. And well... I don't think Yasu cuts the mustard.
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Old 2012-12-22, 22:30   Link #31494
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I always felt like the insane killer was the Beatrice personality and Clair was just what Yasu was feeling on the inside and what brought about the Beatrice side of her to ruthlessly kill everyone. It's better if you don't try and sympathize with insane mass murders as no matter what the motive is for mass murdering people it will never fully make sense to you. It just has to make sense to the insane killer.
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Old 2012-12-22, 23:56   Link #31495
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If he wanted that, he shouldn't have pushed the "nothing to gain" angle so hard. If a person truly has nothing to gain from evil and does it anyway, there's simply something about them that isn't particularly human.

What could be "gained" doesn't necessarily need to be something of substance, but it ought to at least make sense.
I think one of the problems is that to Yasu these things make a weird kind of sense. I agree with you that for us to fully understand and love the character of Yasu, in the way we are thinking the author wanted us to do, he should have elaborated a little more on characterization. But I also still think that your consideration of a culprit is too much lead by your love of justice to draw the same conclusion that one of the detectives, Will, in the story drew.

But (and that's the bigger but) I reread some of the earlier TIPS and came upon something that I completely forgot Ryukishi talked about so early on. I'm talking about the Later Queen Problem.
What actually lead us to the conclusion that Will is completely right in the conclusion he draws? He concludes that, because very likely the horrible incident that happened on Rokkenjima was not the one that 'Beatrice' had planned, she is innocent and worthy to be loved.

I think that for the actual truth to be reached it is important to consider "with love you become unable to see things", but to gain at least AN understanding of why it COULD have happened "without love it can't be seen" comes into play.
"This is a crime that no human could have committed, therefore we need the witch" does not only count for locked rooms and vanished keys, it also helps in making sense of a tragedy that IS beyond human.

The problem is that Yasu was never taught to handle a crisis by facing it but from a young age on was allowed to push it on the witch. That is why she decided, no matter what happened on Rokkenjima, to conceal it by using the witch. To Yasu it does not matter what happened on Rokkenjima, it was always the witch. Whether we come to a conclusion that makes Yasu the culprit or not, for her/him it is always Beatrice who takes the blame.

Quote:
That's why I wanted a deep insight in her mind, to figure out how it become okay to her to kill:
- the people she, for her own admission, had judged like a mother and a father (Kumasawa and Genji) and who had always been partial toward her
- the people whom she had judged friends, with whom she had grown up, who cared for her, who loved her and whom she loved (Jessica, George and Battler)
- a child who was also her best friend (Maria) and that had never done something wrong
- 2 apparently friendly adults who're never shown taunting her or doing something against her (Hideyoshi and Kyrie)
- a doctor who's responsible only of saving her life
On the other hand, looking at it without love, you could say:
- the people who had pushed her into accepting Beatrice (Kumasawa) and had pushed her into becoming the successor of the Ushiromiya name and fortune (Genji)
- the person who is so desperate not to be alone that she tries to force her into loving her (Jessica), somebody who is so insecure that he tries to force a solution (George) and somebody who left without ever feeling a single shred of remorse (Battler)
- a child who had so much destructive potential and was so driven by revenge fantasies, hung up in her delusions, that she would never grow up a healthy adult
- 2 adults. One who seems to suck up towards being liked out of shady reasons like money (Hideyoshi) and another who incidentally appeared on the scene again right after the former wife had died (Kyrie)
- a doctor who only saved her for the money and connection to an influential and wealthy family. A doctor who screwed up her life by making her live in a "broken body".

The question comes down to what perspective you choose again.
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Old 2012-12-23, 00:06   Link #31496
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Speaking of ep 8, now that the manga is licensed here I guess that means we will be waiting, what was it, about 4 years to read it now? I am all for buying the printed version, but I can't imagine that so many people will be interested in a dead series 4 years on....
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Old 2012-12-23, 01:25   Link #31497
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I think one of the problems is that to Yasu these things make a weird kind of sense. I agree with you that for us to fully understand and love the character of Yasu, in the way we are thinking the author wanted us to do, he should have elaborated a little more on characterization. But I also still think that your consideration of a culprit is too much lead by your love of justice to draw the same conclusion that one of the detectives, Will, in the story drew.
Well I'm certainly not going to apologize for valuing justice over loving a (potential) criminal, but of course I don't think you're asking me to. I do agree I needed way more elaboration to be able to put that aside even a little bit.
Quote:
But (and that's the bigger but) I reread some of the earlier TIPS and came upon something that I completely forgot Ryukishi talked about so early on. I'm talking about the Later Queen Problem.
What actually lead us to the conclusion that Will is completely right in the conclusion he draws? He concludes that, because very likely the horrible incident that happened on Rokkenjima was not the one that 'Beatrice' had planned, she is innocent and worthy to be loved.
I posted about this earlier. You're entirely right. We trust Will because he seems to have his shit together, but we can't forget that Will is willing to flub the truth a little bit out of compassion. That's kind of his entire character.

So could he have made up a solution that Clair liked, but which wasn't necessarily true? Sure. But how can we know?
Quote:
The problem is that Yasu was never taught to handle a crisis by facing it but from a young age on was allowed to push it on the witch. That is why she decided, no matter what happened on Rokkenjima, to conceal it by using the witch. To Yasu it does not matter what happened on Rokkenjima, it was always the witch. Whether we come to a conclusion that makes Yasu the culprit or not, for her/him it is always Beatrice who takes the blame.
Sure. And I have issues with that, but it may be understandable, even acceptable to some degree... if we know as readers what he/she was covering up. And it wasn't Yasu's fault because seriously screw Yasu if so.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2012-12-23, 02:59   Link #31498
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So could he have made up a solution that Clair liked, but which wasn't necessarily true? Sure. But how can we know?
I think that's the point that could be taken from this.
That IS the whole point of the Later Queen Problem after all. Sure, we are being considered that the detective speaks the word of God and thus is in control of the situation at all times, but it was already criticized through the character of Erika, who spoke in the name of God but fulfilled exactly the first critique of the Later Queen Problem, the detective not knowing a crucial part of the puzzle due to limitations of being a character of that world.

Thus, isn't it exactly that which made Bern's (probably not that unlikely, though lacking) interpretation hit so hart? Because she used all the evidence that Will put aside in order to built his interpretation full of love.
Will's inherent flaw is that he thinks that cases have to be seen with love indiscriminately.

I think in that case Umineko is very similar to the big three Anti-Mysteries it has been likened to because, like Dogura Magura, Murder in the Mansion of Black Death and An Offering to Nothingness, it not only refuses to give an outright solution it depicts within the story that a perfect solution (like in a classical mystery) is impossible.
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Old 2012-12-23, 19:30   Link #31499
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think that's the point that could be taken from this.
That IS the whole point of the Later Queen Problem after all. Sure, we are being considered that the detective speaks the word of God and thus is in control of the situation at all times, but it was already criticized through the character of Erika, who spoke in the name of God but fulfilled exactly the first critique of the Later Queen Problem, the detective not knowing a crucial part of the puzzle due to limitations of being a character of that world.

Thus, isn't it exactly that which made Bern's (probably not that unlikely, though lacking) interpretation hit so hart? Because she used all the evidence that Will put aside in order to built his interpretation full of love.
Will's inherent flaw is that he thinks that cases have to be seen with love indiscriminately.

I think in that case Umineko is very similar to the big three Anti-Mysteries it has been likened to because, like Dogura Magura, Murder in the Mansion of Black Death and An Offering to Nothingness, it not only refuses to give an outright solution it depicts within the story that a perfect solution (like in a classical mystery) is impossible.
Honestly I think Will's solution for the gameboards is correct.
This doesn't necessarily mean the gameboard solution can be applied to Prime. The problem of the gameboard solution however is that it generates a sharp difference between the two Yasus.

One reacted to everything that went wrong in her life by writing mysteries, the other turned those mysteries into truth.

Unless the Yasu writing mysteries was seriously thinking to turn them into reality as well and was only stopped by something minor becoming, as Kyrie put it, a killer who didn't get the chance, the difference between the two Yasus is not a minor one, a small 'what if'.

Umineko seems to imply that we should believe Yasu wasn't a murderer on Prime and, if I've to consider Yasu as merely a mystery writer, the datas I have are more than enough to understand why she wrote such stories to try and reach Battler.


Problems come when I'm supposed to try to understand PieceYasu.
Sure, it can be that PieceYasu isn't supposed to be understood. After all BlackBattler says he'll kill everyone because 'witches want him to'.
However when Black Battler says so I think 'this character is so poorly characterized...' and automatically hope the real Umineko culprit is better characterized.

There's to say maybe Ryukishi with that sentence didn't mean to point out how poorly Battler would be characterized but how weak of a motivation pushed his author to make him as a culprit.

In short 'relieving himself from boredom' is weak and less important versus 'trying to get your loved one to understand your feelings'.
Which is opinable (witches litterally die of boredom) but can still be the message Ryukishi wanted to deliver.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
On the other hand, looking at it without love, you could say:
- the people who had pushed her into accepting Beatrice (Kumasawa) and had pushed her into becoming the successor of the Ushiromiya name and fortune (Genji)
- the person who is so desperate not to be alone that she tries to force her into loving her (Jessica), somebody who is so insecure that he tries to force a solution (George) and somebody who left without ever feeling a single shred of remorse (Battler)
- a child who had so much destructive potential and was so driven by revenge fantasies, hung up in her delusions, that she would never grow up a healthy adult
- 2 adults. One who seems to suck up towards being liked out of shady reasons like money (Hideyoshi) and another who incidentally appeared on the scene again right after the former wife had died (Kyrie)
- a doctor who only saved her for the money and connection to an influential and wealthy family. A doctor who screwed up her life by making her live in a "broken body".

The question comes down to what perspective you choose again.
The problem is that Yasu never chose to present others in such perspective.
Even in Ep 7 she says Kumasawa and Genji are sort of like her parents.
The only moment in which we get she's not so happy is with the red truth Bern gives about her wound... but this could be related to merely hating herself, not necessarily to hating the people who tried to save her.

Also... as motives they're pretty weak to kill people.
It's reasonable for her to hate Natsuhi who basically tried to kill her. Even to hate Rosa because she can think she was the cause of her mother's death (maybe she feared Rosa pushed her down like Natsuhi did to her) and because mistreat Maria. But really neither of the those people aimed to harm her or hurt her feelings. Jessica isn't forcing Kanon to be his boyfriend using her power as grandaughter of his master. When he says no she... deal with it.
Punishing her just because she liked Kanon enough to wish for him to be her boyfriend is not a valid motive, is a sign of insanity.
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Old 2012-12-24, 02:40   Link #31500
haguruma
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Honestly I think Will's solution for the gameboards is correct.
This doesn't necessarily mean the gameboard solution can be applied to Prime. The problem of the gameboard solution however is that it generates a sharp difference between the two Yasus.
It is at least a valid solution to Beatrice's boards in which she painted herself the culprit (EP1 and 2, because written by Yasu) or at least left enough room for herself to be A culprit (EP3 and 4, because written by amnesiac Toya).
The problem is that, as depicted in TIPs like the Interview with a Certain Witchhunter or Forgery No.xxx, there is enough room in the world of the Rokkenjima Incident to theorize all sorts of terrible events and murderers into this 3 day space, because almost all traces of the real events are gone. Bern's tea party in EP7 and her game in EP8 showed that it is entirely possible to construct events in which Yasu is not the killer but simply prepared the stage for another tragedy.

The problem with Will's theory is, as is the core of the Later Queen Problem, we have no choice but to believe that his theory is correct, at least if we want a sympathetic outcome of everything. It is still obvious though that he either chose to ignore certain aspects which we learned in the course of Umineko as a narrative presented to us or he simply was not aware of them.
The interesting thing is that he is unable to beat Bern with usual means at the end of EP7, not because her FANTASY is so elaborate, but because her MYSTERY is foolproof.

Quote:
Unless the Yasu writing mysteries was seriously thinking to turn them into reality as well and was only stopped by something minor becoming, as Kyrie put it, a killer who didn't get the chance, the difference between the two Yasus is not a minor one, a small 'what if'.
I think this is something we have to consider.
I would heavily dislike the idea of just discarding a large portion of Umineko, which is displaying the potential of evil in people, just because the display of good seemed more sympathetic. Sure, Bern's game hyped the "everybody is a potential murderer" aspect up by 100, but I think it is something that has to be considered in the context of Umineko and also in the context of Yasu.
You don't write fiction like this JUST to reach somebody. I think that is also what Dlanor was hinting at in Our Confession, the frustration and hatred for certain aspects of people that 'Beatrice' did not want to admit of having. We also have the depiction of Maria in EP4, who also carried both, the potential of endless good and also the wish for destruction and death (she created magic to hurt her classmates, teachers, she even dreamt of killing her own mother a thousand times). I think Maria depicts how Yasu grew up to a great deal and also shows how Yasu got twisted through all the stories she lived out.

I don't believe Yasu to be the culprit of the 1986 Rokkenjima incident, but he was an important trigger to events that created such a tragedy.

Quote:
However when Black Battler says so I think 'this character is so poorly characterized...' and automatically hope the real Umineko culprit is better characterized.
I think here you have to distinguish between BlackBattler (the meta incarnation of every Battler-culprit ever created) and the Battler culprit on a gameboard (e.g. Forgery No.xxx). The one we witness talking in that TIP is the meta incarnation, which is similar to MetaBeatrice in the sense that he not only encompasses all possible Battler-culprits, he is constructed from them and exists because of them. Similar to how Eva-Beatrice exists because of Ange's and other people's Eva-culprit theories.

How well that culprit is filled depends on the individual author and perspective again.
The Battler-cuprit even in Forgery No.xxx will likely not be motivated by "witches wanted him to do it", that is just the metaphor for us readers (the theater-going witches) demanding BlackBattler (any Battler-culprit theory) to appear on stage again.
Like BlackBattler also said, with each well written Battler-culprit story he grows in strength, like Beatrice grows with each story depicting her as the culprit. This is just showing that we, the people who are simply interested in the tragedy, tend to believe in those versions of events that have the most backing, which does not necessarily mean that they are the actual events.

It's things like this that make me still like Umineko, not as a mystery, but as an anti-mystery.

Quote:
Also... as motives they're pretty weak to kill people.
[...]
Punishing her just because she liked Kanon enough to wish for him to be her boyfriend is not a valid motive, is a sign of insanity.
I think murder is always a sign of a certain amount of insanity. Even if it is a cry for help, desperation alone is mostly not enough to kill a person, a certain degree of insanity is necessary, because people in countries like Europe, the US and also Japan are brought up to despise killing too much to simply choose it as a conscious option.
Thus, searching for a motive that makes our killer NOT insane (or what our society would refer to as insane) on any level is extremely hard and leads us to the question if murder can ever be justified. To me the answer is....nyaaeeeeuuuuh
Murder is wrong on many levels, no matter how much classical mystery stories tend to paint a romantic image of the sympathetic murderer. I think it's not wrong to feel a certain amount of sympathy towards somebody who saw no other option than to kill people close to him- or herself, it shows that we are still human and don't get drawn to the same level or deeper. That does not mean on the other hand, that we have to condone the deed.

I'm not talking about "hate the sin, love the sinner", that is a very stupid concept, but trying to understand what drove a culprit to such a horrible act is not wrong, demonizing such a person is much worse, because then we forget to search for reasons.
That is pretty much shown in Bern's EP7 solution. She gives us a culprit who we can hate, who is a horrible, greedy, self-centered monster, but we know that this picture is incomplete because we already got to know Kyrie from several perspectives. Even if she did commit the crimes as Bern depicted on a surface level, we immediately start making theories. "She probably knew Eva would feel driven to care for Ange that way", "Maybe the Sumaderas held Ange captive", "If she had known all that Rudolph and others kept from her, she wouldn't have done it". All theories that try to see the human in Kyrie.
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