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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 65 63.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 27.18%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 5 4.85%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 0.97%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.97%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.97%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.97%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-22, 08:58   Link #101
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
What about all the times they shot black people after mistaking their cellphones for guns, that doesn't get reported on the news?


....okay, this might be a rather American centric question.
And when does that happen?
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Old 2012-12-22, 09:03   Link #102
Haak
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Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
Shotgun on her right hand and dominator on her left hand. Did you not notice the symbolism happening in here? It's not simply because she's shaken or being a coward or something..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDF2050 View Post
Care to explain it? If there any reader out there that can explain this a little bit, I will be able to understand this episode a bit better.
Using both weapons as tools for different purposes? (Analyser and actual weapon)

The shotgun in her right hand representing the political Right Wing whilst the Dominator in her left hand represents the political Left Wing?

A choice she has to make?

I don't quite know what he's getting at either. Sorry dude but you're gonna have to spoonfeed us there.
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Old 2012-12-22, 09:08   Link #103
MisaoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
Shotgun on her right hand and dominator on her left hand. Did you not notice the symbolism happening in here? It's not simply because she's shaken or being a coward or something..
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDF2050 View Post
Care to explain it? If there any reader out there that can explain this a little bit, I will be able to understand this episode a bit better.
Well, I don't quite know, but as Haak said, the two guns (one is the Dominator and the other is a shotgun) may symbolise the methaporical angel wings perhaps ?
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Old 2012-12-22, 09:09   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
- Manual override would mean they'd still have to think before shooting.
- They have a stun option.

It's not ideal, of course. Nothing's perfect. But there should be an option to shoot murderous bastards when they're caught in the act, whatever their CC is.
Part of the reasoning for putting all the control into the hands of the Sybyl system for firing authorization, is that the Enforcers are still technically considered prisoners even in the field. If some Enforcers were to try an escape, being able to stun whomever they wanted would give them quite a bit of ability to resist detention.


Mind, you'd think at least the Inspectors would have the discretion to stun whomever they wanted.
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Old 2012-12-22, 09:56   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Using both weapons as tools for different purposes? (Analyser and actual weapon)

The shotgun in her right hand representing the political Right Wing whilst the Dominator in her left hand represents the political Left Wing?

A choice she has to make?

I don't quite know what he's getting at either. Sorry dude but you're gonna have to spoonfeed us there.
Maybe the shotgun represents "freedom, liberty, and personality responsibility" while the Dominator represents "obedience, order, and following the system no matter what". Not sure what that would have to do with which specific hand she's holing each gun in, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Part of the reasoning for putting all the control into the hands of the Sybyl system for firing authorization, is that the Enforcers are still technically considered prisoners even in the field. If some Enforcers were to try an escape, being able to stun whomever they wanted would give them quite a bit of ability to resist detention.


Mind, you'd think at least the Inspectors would have the discretion to stun whomever they wanted.
You make a good point with Enforcers, yeah. For them, I can see the logic in not allowing manual override. You'd think the Inspectors would have more discretion, though.

In fairness, some aspects of the society of Psycho-Pass are a bit of a work in progress. Sybil itself can't be that old, because Masaoka seems to remember a time before it.
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Old 2012-12-22, 10:10   Link #106
Arya
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Don't know. While watching Akane with the shotgun I thought that if she would have shot him her PP would have increased (well, if she was not Akane). Well to be honest my first constant thought was SHOOOOT, drop the dominator, take aim with both hands, and SHOOOT!!!!
Anyways, I thought that the main reason there is no manual override is due to the fact that shooting would increase PP value risking the inspector to go latent criminal. So the system prioritizes inspector's state of mind over everything else. The flaw here is that if the override would enable only the stun mode there's no way that someone PP value would increase. So, why not?
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Old 2012-12-22, 10:47   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
- Manual override would mean they'd still have to think before shooting.
- They have a stun option.

It's not ideal, of course. Nothing's perfect. But there should be an option to shoot murderous bastards when they're caught in the act, whatever their CC is.
The thing is, the whole point of the dominator is to prevent them from thinking and make it easier for them to shoot. The system does the thinking for them. All they have to do is follow instructions. This removes any kind of stress or guilt they might feel.

The big problem is that Sibyl's judgment is completely trusted, so much so that they haven't even envisioned a situation where it would be useful to rely on a human being's judgment. That's how excessive their over-reliance on machines is. It has reached a dangerous point. Ironically, Makishima might just be the sanest person of the cast since he was the only one able to realize that.
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Old 2012-12-22, 15:38   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Ironically, Makishima might just be the sanest person of the cast since he was the only one able to realize that.
I'd argue strongly against your contention that Makishima is the only one able to realize it. I'd further argue that many of the "Enforcers" (and prisoners) realize it as well, which is heavily entwined with why they are Enforcers (and prisoners), and not model citizens.
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Old 2012-12-22, 16:08   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The big problem is that Sibyl's judgment is completely trusted, so much so that they haven't even envisioned a situation where it would be useful to rely on a human being's judgment. That's how excessive their over-reliance on machines is. It has reached a dangerous point.
To be fair, I'm not sure we're seeing the whole context here. The Sibyl system certainly looks flawed from our perspective since it didn't take long for us to come across an exception to the rule but it's possible that the Sibyl system has been around for ages, has had such a positive effect on the countries economy and general social system etc, and that Makishima really is a one-in-a-million case.
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Old 2012-12-22, 17:31   Link #110
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I'm sure it's had tons of positive effects, but I don't like that this seemingly comes at the price of people's freedom.

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Originally Posted by creb View Post
I'd argue strongly against your contention that Makishima is the only one able to realize it. I'd further argue that many of the "Enforcers" (and prisoners) realize it as well, which is heavily entwined with why they are Enforcers (and prisoners), and not model citizens.
True. Kogami himself seemed pretty critical of the system in episode 3.
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Old 2012-12-22, 17:54   Link #111
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A couple of points, I'd like to address:

1. Makishima's disappointment: I think that's one of the more important points, here, since, if I'm right, it opens up interesting possibilities:

First, I think his disappointment stems from Akane's unwillingness to let go of the dominator. This disappointment then removes her from Makishima's radar, since she's just an uninteresting Sibyl puppet.

This is where he's wrong, though, and it's what turns Akane into the wild card in the Makashima vs. Kougami conflict. Akane certainly still believes in the Sibyl system, but we've seen her override a dominator in the very first episode, by stunning Kougami, nonetheless. So why does Akane hesitate?

I think, she's by nature more of a pacifist, and killing/hurting people doesn't come easy to her. She's got good marks from law inforcement, because that part's being handed over to the dominator: she doesn't need to make these decisions. So, clearly, being faced with having to take responsibility for a kill (no stun-mode on a shotgun), Akane isn't quite in control. She's not a blind puppet of the system; but what if the system is right and Makishima's not going to hurt her and this some strange suicide tactic? (Very unlikely, but if you have to do something that's against your nature [and Akane is decidedly not a killer], you start to rationalise things, and the little chance that she's wrong and the system is right can make her hesitate.)

Makishima has told her that, if she doesn't use both hands to aim the gun, she won't hit him, and yet Akane holds on to the dominator. Disappointing. But he misreads her, I think (as outlined above), something that might to a pleasant surprise later on.

Pleasant? On to number 2.

2. Makishima's Motivation: For some reason, and that's really wild speculation, I see him as a spoiled brat; intelligent, clear psycho pass, so he always got away with anything. That leads him to (a) distrust the system, and (b) to use it to his advantage. He looks down on anybody who trusts the system, and throws cogs into the wheel, wherever he can. I think he's looking for someone to understand him; and that ultimately entrails punishment. Clearly, what he's doing is wrong. He knows it, but the system won't acknowledge it. I think, deep down he wants to be punished. As a child, he probably felt misunderstood and lonely, because he was never punished (while others were punished for something they haven't even done yet).

So his motivation is two-fold: (a) He dispises the Sibyl system, and this guides his actions. People who don't just follow the system draw his interest, but if they really just follow some other system, that's not really better is it? First guy was good at impersonating online celebrities, but lacked a personality of his own. Slave to a self-opposed celebrity system. School girl was just copying her father (without real understanding). Not sure if Mr. Cyborg disappointed him or not; I lean towards not.

(b) A possibly unacknolweged but probably conscious urge to be punished for his crimes, not out of a sense of justice, but out of a sense of jealousy. For him, not being punished isn't a breach of a moral code, but an indication that people don't actually pay attention to him. (Other people get all the attention, but they don't deserve it, because - if they're justly punished in accordance with some system - then they're boring.)

It's a kind of narcissism: your smart, you get away with anything - you're special.

So the only person allowed to punish him is someone who can by-pass the system. He never expected Akane to shoot him, but if I'm correct, he'd have been pleasantly surprised if she actually did. I honestly think he wouldn't have minded dying like that.

If Akane shot him, would Makishima just have "passed on the curse"? On to (3):

3. Crime Coefficient: So how does the CC relate to the psycho pass? I'd say, one half of it is the Psycho Pass, which represents the mental state. But since the dominator connects to the Sybil system, I think there's a biographical aspect, too: what have you done? Surely, someone who actually comitted a crime in the past is more likely to committ another one, even if the psycho pass comes out clear? Surely, if you defy authority, you're more likely to commit a crime (since you don't respect authority)?

Is it time to put the name Makishima into quotes now? Remember that "Makishima" is a stolen identity and the attached biography is not his own. A low psycho pass reading and a clean biography, hm... Will we know him as "Makishima" throughout the entire show, I wonder? (A possible weak-point in that line of thought is that the identity might not be all that clean. I have a vague memory that they said something to that effect. I can't check right now, so does anybody remember?)

Of course, it's not that simple, either. Take the current situation. Could the Sibyl system construe the present situation as self-defense? Akane never pointed the dominator at Yuki, so there's no data, there. But what if Yuki's CC is higher than Makishima's? Would Sibyl conclude that Makishima acted in self defense? If so, what about the lack of expected stress? (Surely, someone killing someone else whithout any stress is suspicious?)

What does Makishima's decreasing CC mean? Submitting to the fatalism of having to kill? Could he be a reluctant killer, who - the closer he comes to the necessity of it - submits to a fatalism? (This goes back to blackwhite67's interesting speculation: what if he acts in accordance with the system? Calm killings that cull the overly emotional? And what if he finds that out?

Now, I'm not nearly convinced this is true; it's just an interesting path to pursue: submission as a key point to a low crime coefficient. We have seen the cathartic effect killing can have on the psycho pass in the drone episode. That's why I think the psycho pass alone can't be enough to calculate the CC. But "Makishima's" record doesn't fit the person. So what now?

It's sort of odd, though, that nobody comments on it in these terms. Basically, the CC confuses me, which is probably why I'm rambling now.

***

Finally, I was surprised about how little I was drawn into this episode. An example, when they played Beethoven during the hunt, I found this cheesy. Yet, I'm normally susceptible to this sort of thing. The entire episode seemed to me a bit overwrought. (I also felt, they "celebrated" Yuki's death a bit too much - not as something good, but in a this-is-important manner.) I couldn't really get into this episode as much as into the others so far. Why?
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Old 2012-12-22, 17:58   Link #112
Quadratic
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Dominator or not, do people believe Akane has actually killed anyone before?
I am of the opinion that even if the Dominator was working and set to explode mode, Akane would be still be somewhat hesitant take someone's life regardless of Sibyl's authorization to kill.

As depressing as this episode is, at least it didn't go the route of, say, Makashima starts licking Yuki's face, then the creator of Sibyl, having been impressed by Akane in the past, allowing her to unlock the Dominator's mode through temporary elevated permission...

Last edited by Quadratic; 2012-12-24 at 01:52. Reason: Fix typos
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Old 2012-12-22, 18:13   Link #113
Haak
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I'm sure it's had tons of positive effects, but I don't like that this seemingly comes at the price of people's freedom.
Oh trust me I don't either. The whole Sibyl system very much reeks of an Orwellian nightmare. I was talking more specially about how useless the system was in this case is not unbelievably/surprisingly so. I guess I misunderstood and thought that was the point being made.
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Old 2012-12-22, 18:25   Link #114
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post

As depressing as this episode is, at least it didn't go the route of, say, Makashima starts licking Yuki's face, then the creator of Sibyl, having being impressed by Akane in the past, allowing her to unlock the Dominator's mode through temporary elevated permissions...
I see what you did there. Well done!
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Old 2012-12-22, 22:09   Link #115
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I do not understand ... Makishima then manages to kill without having envy? for this reason that the PP is not raised?
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Old 2012-12-22, 22:13   Link #116
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WOW. That was intense....

Had a feeling that the Hunter Guy was going to die, as well as Yuki. Makishima don't give two shits.

On the other hand, I sort of get what Makishima's trying to say: Why let the Sbyl system determine who's fit for society and who isn't? Why not go with one's free will? I have a feeling that he's not done with Akane yet...especially since Akane and Ko are getting very, very close each episode.

And poor Akane....that's probaly the first time ever that she was in a situation like that. Like someone said, it's not in her nature to kill...unless this is how she winds up maybe getting into a situation similar to Ko's in the end? And she's been ingrained with the Sbyl System since she was probaly younger...so I can totally see why she couldn't shoot Makishima with the gun.
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Old 2012-12-23, 02:59   Link #117
Cosmic Eagle
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Surprised the hunter is lower rated than Rikako.

Anyway, it seems that the mode the Dominator uses on organic brain targets is different from the one used on targets lacking an organic brain.


As for the ep itself...yeah, proves what balless shit this society is. They are such cowards that they rationalize blowing people apart with a machine judgement....exactly because they cannot have that burden on themselves. Filth indeed. If you cannot muster the will to slay someone in execution then don't. Not have a machine do it for you as if it suddenly makes killing right.

It's so crappy to the point they can't even pull a trigger on their own anymore when it's really needed. If Akane were afraid of becoming a latent criminal...well, her Hue will darken either way but one offers the chance of saving her friend...sigh


Does anyone else find Makishima suicidal? Or at least tired with his life in such a crappy world?


Quote:
What does Makishima's decreasing CC mean? Submitting to the fatalism of having to kill? Could he be a reluctant killer, who - the closer he comes to the necessity of it - submits to a fatalism? (This goes back to blackwhite67's interesting speculation: what if he acts in accordance with the system? Calm killings that cull the overly emotional? And what if he finds that out?

Now, I'm not nearly convinced this is true; it's just an interesting path to pursue: submission as a key point to a low crime coefficient. We have seen the cathartic effect killing can have on the psycho pass in the drone episode. That's why I think the psycho pass alone can't be enough to calculate the CC. But "Makishima's" record doesn't fit the person. So what now?
I would think so....except first he says he's been like this since young, and that he theorizes it's something to do with his body's reactions. Makes me think it's a physiological property of his rather than anything else.

He also says that being convinced of his being free of evil as being important but well...Rikako also thinks that way, yet she still reads 400+
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:52   Link #118
Pacify
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Wow that was one brutal death scene. Even though it was obviously coming, didnt diminish the shock value. Poor Yuki
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:59   Link #119
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Originally Posted by RDF2050 View Post
Care to explain it? If there any reader out there that can explain this a little bit, I will be able to understand this episode a bit better.
I think it's along the lines of Akane being unable to let go completely of the Sibyl system to save her friend. Shot guns require 2 hands - in order for her to shoot it she had to let go of the dominator (aka symbolism for the Sibyl system). She couldn't let go of the dominator but at the same time she wanted to save her friend so holding both the shot gun and the dominator represented that she straddled between the choices of abandoning the Sibyl system and saving her friend and vice-versa. However, she lacked the resolve to choose one entirely and Makashima saw this lack of resolve and chose for her. (aka killing her friend)

Not sure if the right hand/left-hand detail was meant to be significant...
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Old 2012-12-23, 10:56   Link #120
Anh_Minh
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Meh. Even with two hands, she'd probably have missed. Possibly hitting her friend.
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