Sword Art Online - Character Discussion - Kayaba Akihiko

[Oroboro]

Sometimes I wonder how Kayaba would come off if he was just some wizard who teleported a bunch of people to an alternate dimension and told them "Defeat the demon lord and the path home will open!"

I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I've never claimed that anything Kayaba did was justified. Merely attempted to explore, explain, and understand why and what things seemed like from his point of view.

And how the other characters relate to him in universe. The final episode makes it rather clear that many of the SAO survivors love and cherish their memories and time spent in that other world, and couldn't wait to go back. Are they all just selfish jerks, for finding joy in something that brought undue suffering to others?

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Sometimes I wonder how Kayaba would come off if he was just some wizard who teleported a bunch of people to an alternate dimension and told them "Defeat the demon lord and the path home will open!"

Doesn`t change anything.

I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I've never claimed that anything Kayaba did was justified. Merely attempted to explore, explain, and understand why and what things seemed like from his point of view.

Again. We all know why he did what he did.
But it gets really stupid the moment someone tries to argue with" but he HAD to do it because...". Which is simply not true at all. No one forced him to creat this death game. It was he himself that that wanted to play God and created this world with all the rules of it.

And how the other characters relate to him in universe. The final episode makes it rather clear that many of the SAO survivors love and cherish their memories and time spent in that other world, and couldn't wait to go back. Are they all just selfish jerks, for finding joy in something that brought undue suffering to others?

I doubt that anyone of them would want to go trough the same shitt again. Losing firends and living in fear of real death.
But now they have a choice. The people who want to play and want to riske their life can do it. The people who just want to play for fun and not risk their life can do it too. They have always the option to stop and log out.

[GenjiChan]

Kayaba Akihiko

> a genius who gone tired of reality and wished to be in world he always wanted. Too bad, he forced many to join him without their permission. His dreamed fantasy world became world of terror to the innocent gamers who have to risk their lives to finish a game to satisfy Kayaba's craziness. He may have his reasons. But it's not all acceptable to everyone, since he never played with the rules in the beginning because in the very start he is the "rule"....

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Again. We all know why he did what he did.

But it gets really stupid the moment someone tries to argue with" but he HAD to do it because...". Which is simply not true at all. No one forced him to creat this death game. It was he himself that that wanted to play God and created this world with all the rules of it.

It's not that he HAD to do it. Kayaba didn't have to do anything. It's that the goal, creating a [real] world can only be accomplished by including the consequence of death. Therefore, if you value to the accomplishment of your goal over anything else, making it a death game is the only path open to you.

Following that path despite the consequences is what makes him a monster. Perhaps if there was another way, he would've pursued that. Perhaps, with the proliferation of the seed, he hopes someone else may be able to accomplish what he could not.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Swordstriker21

Look here people. Bottom line is that what Kayaba wanted to create was another world. Another complete and functioning reality. Only difference is that it had monsters, dungeons, a floating castle and other mmorpg stuff in it. If this was the case then of course the element of death will be inevitably present. I mean thousands die in reality every single day either by natural or not so natural causes. You guys are free to paint the real world as a peaceful utopia but unfortunately that's not the case (and it never has). So killing people was definitely not Kayaba's goal. It's just that it was a necessary element in order to create another functioning reality. And it's not like they absolutely had to hunt monsters or traverse dungeons to survive. They could actually settle down in a lower floor away from the front lines and live relatively peaceful lives like those fishermen. If Kayaba wanted only a pure death game then these things should not have been made possible and people should have been under constant threat of death. In the end though one of the greatest threats to human lives in SAO were humans themselves (i.e. Laughing Coffin).

Again, if that's all he was after then most of the aspects he included were completely unnecessary. The monsters did not have to be so deadly, he did not have to create the bosses, he did not have to give them a prize worth dying, and he did not have to play a role in the game himself where he would manipulate and push players to seek out that prize. He wanted them to seek their deaths, This is what turned his world into a death game and not just a heinous trap. Hell after only 2 years, 40% of the population of his world was dead; that's a higher death ratio than even our worst wars. THAT's how dangerous of a scenerio he created. He was doing much more than just creating a world, he was trying to create a narrative that he knew full well would result in mass death. And he did all of this for his own selfish reasons. And NONE of this excuses anything he did since only a monster would kidnap 10,000 people for his own selfish dream. Really its like the only difference between him and Suguo is that Suguo was more sadistic with his desires.

Originally Posted by Oroboro

And how the other characters relate to him in universe. The final episode makes it rather clear that many of the SAO survivors love and cherish their memories and time spent in that other world, and couldn't wait to go back. Are they all just selfish jerks, for finding joy in something that brought undue suffering to others?

Frankly, i feel that only calls attention to how bad some of the writing in this series is; the writing was well done during the first half of the series but fast went downhill after the climax. Why? Cause in the end it does not seem like anyone even cares about what Kayaba has done. No one cares that he kidnapped 10000 people, effectively robbing them of nearly everything they had; no one cares that 4000 people died in his death game; no one cares that they ended up watching friends die; no one cares that their own lives were placed at risk; No one cares that his victims included innocent children... and all this was done for his own selfish dream... The moment he is beaten, no one ever again even mentions the terrible things he did or ever mentions his name in a negative light (except for suguo, but for the wrong reasons since he was just speaking out of jealousy).

This even extends to the choice to use the world seed. That star trek clip posted before is an adequate example of how such a situation is treated with maturity. Its logic vs morals and ethics... logically there is little reason to not use what you have just because it came from a horrible source, but morally and ethically there are many reasons not to use it; it's complicated. As such i would not be surprised if someone chose logic; that star trek clip could have ended either way. But what gets to me is that in SAO, no one bothers to ask the question and there is no difficulty behind the choice. The effect that this has is that no one seems to care about what kayaba did... you can try to say "well maybe they do", but you don't know that, you are just making excuses. A good story must show these things itself and we do not get even the slightest implication; even the simplest body language or tone of voice could have said something about how they feel about what he did. In the end, Kayaba was a selfish monster who tormented and killed thousands, but the series treats him more like a misguided genius; not a single person seems to actually act like he's a monster. By never again addressing what he did or ever bringing his name up in a negative light, the series leaves the implication that what he did was not really ultimately wrong. Something is like this is not something that should be ignored; their are serious implications about what kayaba did that should be addressed and not just hand waved.

In the end, Kayaba is a villain that wins in just about every way. He kills thousands, lives out his dream for the most part, and leaves behind a legacy; even his own death was planned; the man got away with mass murder and no one seems to care. Like I said, i can except that someone might choose logic, might choose to use the seed, what i hate most about that ending is that no one actually brings up the complexity of such a decision, because that in turn hand wave's all the horrible things that kayaba had done. Is it so much to ask that just one person in this series actually call out kayaba for his heinous inhuman crimes

[Oroboro]

Most people, including likely Kirito and the others, don't take overarching moral stances on things. Most of us use products in our day to day lives with more blood and suffering baked into them than anything Kayaba did. Kirito and CO. aren't saints. Just people.


Kayaba forced many people into his world against their will. Many suffered, many died. But many also, over the course of two years, fell in love with the world they were given. Their love doesn't justify Kayaba's actions. But at the same time, Kayaba's crimes don't negate their love.

Yeah. Kayaba pretty much won in the end. And well, that's okay. Not in a moral, or justice sense. In the sense that it's okay to have a story where the villain gets what he wants. Not every story has to end where the villain gets his righteous, karma(And author) induced justice.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Most people, including likely Kirito and the others, don't take overarching moral stances on things. Most of us use products in our day to day lives with more blood and suffering baked into them than anything Kayaba did. Kirito and CO. aren't saints. Just people.

Most poeple don't have a first hand experience with such tragedy; most don't consider where the things they use come from and those that do often find little alternative since so many things are needed in day to day life. Heck, Kirito actually DOES call himself a hero, but then he ignores the horors that kayaba is responsible for? some hero. The true heroes are those that oppose these systems and norms and fights to change them, not simply ignore them. In a way by calling himself a "hero" he in a sense kind undermines your defese that he's just an adverage kid who does not have overarching moral stances; to call yourself a hero without such morals is a mockery of the hero name. Furthamore none of this excuses anything that Kayaba did which is far worse than what many others have done because Kayaba did everything for nothing more than pure selfishness... 4000 dead for his personal entertainment

Kayaba forced many people into his world against their will. Many suffered, many died. But many also, over the course of two years, fell in love with the world they were given. Their love doesn't justify Kayaba's actions. But at the same time, Kayaba's crimes don't negate their love.

Yeah. Kayaba pretty much won in the end. And well, that's okay. Not in a moral, or justice sense. In the sense that it's okay to have a story where the villain gets what he wants. Not every story has to end where the villain gets his righteous, karma(And author) induced justice.

Yes sometimes villains do win in the end, but unless we are dealing with a sympathetic villain or a villain that was ultimately trying to do good, their victory is never treated as GOOD thing and their evil actions are not just hand waved and ignored. The fact that such a monster would come out of this with near complete victory normally leaves a bitter feeling. Evil won, Justice lost and all those who suffered from his actions will have to live the rest of their lives knowing this. At best, you can hope for a bitter sweet ending, but overall still bitter.

But no SAO does not do this. What Kayaba did is not presented as wrong because no one seems to begrudge him for it. What kind of message does this send? That you can kill thousands for your personal entertainment, suffer no repercussions and even have a grand legacy? And that this is a GOOD thing? I mean imagine if this series ended with Sugou loosing Asuna, but still keeping his 300 captives and successfully completed his inhuman experiments and got rich selling off the tech. It would feel pretty despicable. Kayaba and Sugou are both selfish monsters, the only way Sugou really differs from Kayaba is that he was more sadistic which made him appear more evil; even though Kayaba has a far higher kill count.

Basically, by just handwaving all the terrible things that Kayaba has done and then taking advantage and enjoying his work in a sense does seem to justify his actions. Afterall what do we have that says his actions were not justified? no one hates him; no one seems to resent anything he had done; so why should we consider what he did as wrong? Its kinda like they are painting him as a "for the greater good" kind of villain, when he is clearly not; He was a selfish monster. Honestly what did Sachi die for? The true monster responsible for her death got away and no one begrudges him for it... what if someone wanted to repeat what Kayaba did; would that be ok? I don't see why not seeing as Kayaba gets to come out on top. That's the kind of negative message this series sends by not presenting Kayaba negatively.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I don't see why not seeing as Kayaba gets to come out on top. That's the kind of negative message this series sends by not presenting Kayaba negatively.

I believe the only person who isn't thinking too negatively of Kayaba is Kirito himself since he's the main person who we the viewer follow around the dialog and narrative just comes off sounding that way. With that in mind one has to realize Kirito sees Kayaba as a brilliant yet misguided man and while he is certainly not justified in his actions during the SAO incident one can not ignore that he left behind something amazing that the would change entire world.

Also I don't think you fully grasped the message this series was trying to send at all. It's more along the lines of no matter how tragic the event people will always find away to survive and live on.

[Ledgem]

Akihiko was probably the most interesting character in the series.

Originally Posted by Oroboro

It's that the goal, creating a [real] world can only be accomplished by including the consequence of death. Therefore, if you value to the accomplishment of your goal over anything else, making it a death game is the only path open to you.

I was thinking much the same thing. The series made some interesting observations (suggestions, really) about virtual reality that continued with ALfheim Online, but having virtual death equate to true death was a rather interesting one. Sure, it's virtual reality, it's a game, but at that point did it really make a difference? It ceased being a game at that point, and even though the events weren't taking place in physical space, being trapped in the environment long-term and being able to experience true death through it essentially made it reality. Given that virtual reality will become real at some point, this is something that is rather interesting to consider.

The motivations and thought process behind Kayaba aren't totally clear. What is interesting is the viewer response to him. Sure, what he did is inexcusable and arguably cruel, and yet I (and seemingly many other viewers) didn't feel animosity toward him when Kirito faced off against him around episode 14. There wasn't any release when he was defeated, either; no sense of victory. Personally, I was more curious. I wanted him to explain more, to expand on his motivations, his thoughts, and what he was planning next.

My guess is that part of this reception has to do with what the viewer is shown. We know that he created the Full Dive system, as well as the environment of Sword Art Online. That's awe-inspiring. That players died is bad, but in some ways it's downplayed. Some characters ponder over whether in-game death results in true death, and we aren't given any proof that it's happening one way or another. As a result, when Kayaba is unmasked and faced off against, we're left with more of a sense of wonderment than hatred. He's a genius enigma with a vision, and we want to understand the vision. If the player deaths were expanded upon - perhaps if the series showed scenes of the player dying in reality shortly after their in-game death - then perhaps there would be greater animosity.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If the player deaths were expanded upon - perhaps if the series showed scenes of the player dying in reality shortly after their in-game death - then perhaps there would be greater animosity.

Yeah, I think this is exactly why the story didn't focus on this, even though many viewers kept asking questions about it at the time (and some to this day consider it a fault that the anime didn't go there at the time). If you take the entirety of the anime, there's a really ambivalent message there about what Kayaba created; it's along the lines of "technology can be used for evil, but that doesn't itself make it evil". It drove some people crazy that they didn't show Kirito or anyone be absolutely infuriated at him, but it was like the show was saying that the enigma was deeper than what anger would solve.

I think I've said before that one of the things I like best about this story is the interesting questions it poses, even though it doesn't necessarily answer them all in a complete or totally-satisfactory way. I'm not sure all the questions asked have totally satisfactory answers anyway -- just like what to make of Kayaba.

[Ledgem]

I agree. I also thought of another interesting take on it. The series never really dives into making connections with religion, but a comparison can be made here that may also explain why most viewers see Kayaba as less of a villain.

If I remember right, Kayaba states that he created the world partly in an effort to have control over all aspects of a world. He wanted control (which sounds evil), yet he never really lords his power over others. At the same time, he is the mastermind behind Sword Art Online; everything from the world's design to the hardware that allows people to experience it. The viewer thus has some reverence for him as a creator who formed something amazing, an entire world and experience.

Perhaps there is something about that scenario that also taps into something deeper within us. Regardless of your take on the truthfulness of religion, I think everyone is aware of the story of the creation of the world according to the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). God created the world, and yet God also made death and pain possible. The reasons for the existence of those things varies with the religions, but consider this: how many people curse God for the existence of death? Some people do every now and then, but death is everywhere in our world. Why aren't these people cursing God all of the time or more often?

Kayaba is not worshipped, and he is not even considered a god-like figure within the series. That's in sharp contrast to Sugou, who seemingly wanted to become a god both in-game and offline. Yet this is interesting to consider: even among people who believe in God, who are living in "God's world," there is little resentment over death. The concepts differ, of course: God is supposedly perfect, whereas Kayaba is a human who is flawed. Still, I wonder if there's something about Kayaba being viewed as the world's creator - almost a God-like figure in that respect - which makes viewers a bit more willing to overlook the fact that his actions led to true deaths.

[orpheus2]

To be fair, Kayaba's World Seed can used for both good and bad.

Spoiler for The Good (Mother Rosario):

It can be used to help terminally ill patients to experience life (albeit a virtual one) they never would have given their current conditions. Thus, it allows them to be somewhat at peace with themselves when they die.

Spoiler for The Bad (Alicization):

It can be used to help create military A.I. or to train future soldiers. This could have damaging consequences especially the military A. I.

[Rovert10]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Kayaba is not worshipped, and he is not even considered a god-like figure within the series. That's in sharp contrast to Sugou, who seemingly wanted to become a god both in-game and offline. Yet this is interesting to consider: even among people who believe in God, who are living in "God's world," there is little resentment over death. The concepts differ, of course: God is supposedly perfect, whereas Kayaba is a human who is flawed. Still, I wonder if there's something about Kayaba being viewed as the world's creator - almost a God-like figure in that respect - which makes viewers a bit more willing to overlook the fact that his actions led to true deaths.

You'll find that if you actually read the Biblical text without a religious lens, that God tends to be a douchebag for a lack of a better term throughout the Old Testament.

God consistently screws over people.
Practically the story Old Testament from Moses up to Kings is to take someone else home no matter the cost including smiting, massacres, and assasination bc God told you so.
Even the choosen people will get smited the moment you say anything against God. (Numbers)

Yet we still see God as the Just, Perfect, Absolute thing or at least in Religion.
God is God and who are we to question him as some might say.
Finding the reasoning for God's actions is impossible to prove. You can infer and theorize all you want but it ain't gonna happen.

Could be that Kayaba is that parallel to God in which you ain't going to figure why he does what he does. He just does it and that's all you know. No matter how cruel it may be.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Perhaps there is something about that scenario that also taps into something deeper within us. Regardless of your take on the truthfulness of religion, I think everyone is aware of the story of the creation of the world according to the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). God created the world, and yet God also made death and pain possible. The reasons for the existence of those things varies with the religions, but consider this: how many people curse God for the existence of death? Some people do every now and then, but death is everywhere in our world. Why aren't these people cursing God all of the time or more often?

Ah, yeah, we had an interesting similar discussion back when the show was airing. I agree that there are definitely religious allusions in all of this that raise some very interesting questions to ponder. This is exactly the reason I'm quite fond of this show, "storytelling flaws" and all.

[CmmdrRosh]

I come in and see a discussion about Mr. Kayaba Akihiko... So here's my input with the current discussion.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

The true heroes are those that oppose these systems and norms and fights to change them, not simply ignore them. In a way by calling himself a "hero" he in a sense kind undermines your defese that he's just an adverage kid who does not have overarching moral stances; to call yourself a hero without such morals is a mockery of the hero name. Furthamore none of this excuses anything that Kayaba did which is far worse than what many others have done because Kayaba did everything for nothing more than pure selfishness...

This was I called in my mind a "TRUE" God complex. Taken from Old Testament style, as uncaring, unforgiving, and finding whatever the hell he was trying to find.

Now, let's deconstruct that...

As a fellow fanfiction writer for SAO *InsertSelfPromotionHereLink@Bottom* I had my ideas on why he created this world. Why? Because of his own pleasure. Which I had given my character a direct quote as to WHY this world would have a TRUE end goal despite it being an MMO.

Why is he doing this? Does he have a GOD complex? Why? Did this happen because of simply the way he is, and how should that be regarded as?

'Heroes': They don't exist. People are usually trying to find a gain, whether its personal or social gain. I call this just 'feeling good'. Did Kayaba 'feel good' about his end result? Probably. But at the cost of his own 'feeling good' other people need to suffer.

Its a constant cycle of happiness and suffering from person to person as one tries to accomplish their own goals, even if they clash with another person. Personal trauma and death of everything, yes; that does seem to leave a huge mental scarring on people.

As Kayaba being the 'Strongest Character in SAO' comes a few questions. Why didn't people question him fighting off a boss for 10 minutes straight? Why does he have such a laizze faire approach to his guild? Why does he seem so damn perfect in game? Would a person like him really be playing an MMO? Why, why, why?

So it comes to this. Why? Because people wanted an escape. They wanted an icon to believe in. Escapist even in a virtual world that has become reality. They wanted something to live up to. A person like that players would go 'What would Heathcliff do'. Hell, even Asuna does say that his Holy Sword is practically overpowered. (Much like a certain... nope, not going there )

.... That's kinda why I didn't believe why people did not see that he would have some type of connection between Kayaba and Heathcliff in the first place.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Yes sometimes villains do win in the end, but unless we are dealing with a sympathetic villain or a villain that was ultimately trying to do good, their victory is never treated as GOOD thing and their evil actions are not just hand waved and ignored. The fact that such a monster would come out of this with near complete victory normally leaves a bitter feeling. Evil won, Justice lost and all those who suffered from his actions will have to live the rest of their lives knowing this. At best, you can hope for a bitter sweet ending, but overall still bitter.

I wouldn't have said that Evil has won as life as returned to normal.... Which leads to me to ask why?

Now lets deconstruct that...

I don't think it would have. Clearly seen with Alicatization Running. The creation of Virtual Grunts of the modern age... Kinda Metal Gear like here....

Which is something that I will be [*spoiler*]

Also, what of the employees of Argus? The composers of of the music? The technical staff? What is going on there?

Are they sanctioned by the government? Are they going to jail right after the SAO Incident is done? What is going on over there? What about the gaming industry?

Certain this would have the rants of a singular 'madman', but the social stigma has stuck. VRMMOs would probably become extinct because of something like this happening (Thank god for the AmuSphere, for you know... Lowering the microwave emitters. That is reconstruction.... kinda of.... >_>)

Originally Posted by Slayerx

But no SAO does not do this. What Kayaba did is not presented as wrong because no one seems to begrudge him for it. What kind of message does this send? That you can kill thousands for your personal entertainment, suffer no repercussions and even have a grand legacy? And that this is a GOOD thing? I mean imagine if this series ended with Sugou loosing Asuna, but still keeping his 300 captives and successfully completed his inhuman experiments and got rich selling off the tech. It would feel pretty despicable. Kayaba and Sugou are both selfish monsters, the only way Sugou really differs from Kayaba is that he was more sadistic which made him appear more evil; even though Kayaba has a far higher kill count.

I saw that as more Sugou just wanting power, money, and influence from Asuna's family. (Kinda stereotypical vilain if you ask me)

Now lets deconstruct that...

Brain control.... And yet the government is perfectly fine with that. They needed a scapegoat with Sugou because Kirito and his... whatever.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I don't see why not seeing as Kayaba gets to come out on top. That's the kind of negative message this series sends by not presenting Kayaba negatively.

Kinda what I was feeling....

No need to deconstruct this.

[xDrac]

Do you guys think Kayaba will come back? (or did he make his last appearance in ALO?)