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Old 2012-12-25, 11:36   Link #1261
Warm Mist
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The weird thing about Hyouka is its consistency, considering it's a Kadokawa marathon. If all 11 volumes stay at ~10k average, the profit from disc sales alone will obviously be higher than a standard 8-9 volumes show selling 10k.
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Old 2012-12-31, 19:14   Link #1262
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Many people naturally would like to see this animation quality and attention to detail applied to more than just "iyashikei slow-paced SoLs". While good animation quality can be appreciated almost anywhere, I can't think of a genre that needs it less than "iyashikei slow-paced SoLs". Whereas animation quality is massively important to an action-packed show.
I know I'm late to this thread, but for me, it's actually the reverse. With action anime, there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief, so while it's anime, and animation is *always* important in this medium, for me slice-of-life needs realistic animation even *more*, because it's crucial that things look true-to-life, because the audience has personal experience with the "real" thing. By definition sci-fi anime can't be *real* in the same way as slice-of-life anime; giant mecha or space ships or whatever don't actually exist, so one can't see how a detail is off on a giant fighting robot, because there's no actual fighting robot out there to compare it to Besides, in things like action anime, things like choreography of movement become more important than the types of painstaking attention to detail we see in something like Hyouka (accepting the premise for the sake of discussion that it's iyashikei/SoL). All those details and attention to coloring would be missed if there was a giant robot moving around on the screen. Now, doing action anime right is a real skill, so I don't think the animation of the sort we see in Hyouka is superior to the best action anime, but it still needs to excel, albeit in a different way that requires real technical skill and craftsmanship.

Anyhow, my point really is that all anime requires a high degree of technical skill to reach its potential as a medium. For SoL, everything is hitting the right emotional registers and atmospherics, and animation is a crucial part of that, because the visuals must match the writing, music, and voice acting. I can't agree that Kyoani is somehow wasting it's animation chops on SoL shows where animation is somehow less important.
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Old 2012-12-31, 23:19   Link #1263
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The thing is, we have seen what KyoAni is capable of in animating an action-heavy anime. Two things are preventing them from doing so again.

1) Lackluster sales, although this could be due to lack of marketing. KyoAni didn't really reach the status of "Global-Midas" till SHnY.

2) The people in KyoAni personally stated that they found it challenging to animate action mecha, but considering the resultant quality... you could argue that it wasn't wasted effort AT ALL. If re-released today, it would still beat the tar out of most current anime in technical merit.

~~~~ ~~~~

Also, it's kinda like the episode from Hyouka... about "expectations". In particular, the Student President who was a genius artist, but only did one manga before calling it quits. He doesn't actually /like/ doing it, but hot damn was he talented at it.

So while we get watered down versions from other studios, this particular darn studio refuses to do any more. We bay for more, but the answer is no, and we whinge about it.

Cheers.
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Old 2013-01-01, 01:13   Link #1264
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Two things are preventing them from doing so again.
They have already done a very action heavy series recently. Nichijyou. A lot of the scenes had a crap ton going on, and it was all very nicely done. Chuunibyou also has very nicely done action scenes.

They haven't done anything action oriented.

I personally like that. KyoAni isn't ONLY skilled as animation, they have a lot of skill with creating atmosphere and manipulating emotions, both of which tend to take back seat to raw animation quality in more action oriented shows.
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Old 2013-01-01, 01:37   Link #1265
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Subjugating animation to the perceived "necessity" of it by certain genres is a limited mindset. Animation, be it acting, action choreography, abstract or whatever, can and will shape the perception of any work. Kyoani's anime are not top sellers because of some unspoken magic, they're top sellers (partly) because they're leagues beyond most other productions in the technical department, and this carries over to how the viewers perceive characters and situations. If people over at Kyoani weren't so dedicated to character acting animation, their characters wouldn't feel half as real and charming as they do. I know I certainly wouldn't care for something like Hyouka if it was a throwaway production with barely any expression and two standard face poses for every character.
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Old 2013-01-01, 01:38   Link #1266
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
They have already done a very action heavy series recently. Nichijyou. A lot of the scenes had a crap ton going on, and it was all very nicely done. Chuunibyou also has very nicely done action scenes.

They haven't done anything action oriented.

I personally like that. KyoAni isn't ONLY skilled as animation, they have a lot of skill with creating atmosphere and manipulating emotions, both of which tend to take back seat to raw animation quality in more action oriented shows.
I was thinking more specifically along the lines of mecha, which KyoAni personally stated was hard for them to do.

Yes. I know. There's mecha in Chuunibyou's DVD extras. It mocks me.

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Old 2013-01-01, 01:48   Link #1267
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The one who loathed making mecha things was Takemoto, and he was speaking for himself. That was back in 2005 IIRC, nowadays with the popularity of CGI mecha and the huge changes the studio went through, things may be different.
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Old 2013-01-01, 09:39   Link #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
I know I'm late to this thread, but for me, it's actually the reverse. With action anime, there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief, so while it's anime, and animation is *always* important in this medium, for me slice-of-life needs realistic animation even *more*, because it's crucial that things look true-to-life, because the audience has personal experience with the "real" thing.
There's a difference between "realistic animation" and "good/great animation".

A lot of the animation in Nichijou is great (at least at a purely technical level), but much of it is hardly realistic. I mean, there's insane sci-fi-esque stuff going on in Nichijou, which means that "realism" isn't exactly the aim here.

You're right that there's often a suspension of disbelief with action anime, but that certainly doesn't mean that people don't want to be left in awe by the action-y visuals. And leaving people in awe of the action-y visuals is at least partly a matter of animation quality.

When I hear fellow anime fans talk about their favorite anime action scenes, 9 times out of 10 a well-beloved action scene also has above average (if not downright great) animation. And the action scenes that people dislike are often marred by cheap animation (this being the key reason why people disliked that scene).

But when fellow anime fans talk about their favorite anime romance scenes, or their favorite anime character drama scenes, or their favorite slice of life scenes, the animation quality of the scenes in question are more variable.

Here's the reason why - For action scenes, the quality of the visuals is obviously key. But for other types of scenes, something else (such as the dialogue, or the BGM) may be what's key.

Good animation can help everywhere, but it is essential in great action scenes.

I certainly appreciate what KyoAni did with Hyouka, but I'd probably appreciate even more KyoAni pulling that quality of animation off with, say, a property like Kara no Kyoukai.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
They have already done a very action heavy series recently. Nichijyou. A lot of the scenes had a crap ton going on, and it was all very nicely done. Chuunibyou also has very nicely done action scenes.

They haven't done anything action oriented.

I personally like that. KyoAni isn't ONLY skilled as animation, they have a lot of skill with creating atmosphere and manipulating emotions, both of which tend to take back seat to raw animation quality in more action oriented shows.
That's simply not true.

Plenty of action oriented shows are great at creating atmosphere and manipulating emotions.

Gurren Lagann resulted in more than a few manly tears being shed, and there are plenty of other mecha shows with lots of great atmosphere and very emotional moments.

But probably the key series to list here is Madoka Magica, an anime show widely praised for its frequently great atmosphere and very emotional moments.

And before anybody questions if Madoka Magica is an action oriented show or not, here is something to keep in mind: Each and every episode of Madoka Magica had at least one scene of combat in it. And many of Madoka Magica's episodes had heavy quantities of combat and/or had its key moments be action scenes.

Proof of my statements in spoiler space below

Spoiler for Madoka Magica action scenes, very spoileriffic:


Now, after reading the above... Can you imagine what an equally action-packed KyoAni-made magical girl show would look like? Now that would be interesting to see, wouldn't it?!
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Old 2013-01-01, 13:17   Link #1269
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I certainly appreciate what KyoAni did with Hyouka, but I'd probably appreciate even more KyoAni pulling that quality of animation off with, say, a property like Kara no Kyoukai.
Why are action sequences so important? Good animation is good animation, regardless of everything else. It's okay if 80% of the fandom doesn't care for animation and only thinks of it in regards of how it affects the narrative, but for people that appreciate animation purely as a craft, there's not a problem with what Kyoani animates. To be certain, they're the only studio that truly focuses on minute character acting in TV anime, and they've been setting the standard for it since at least Clannad. There are action-focused studios, BONES for example. There are mecha-focused studios, Sunrise. So why should we criticize Kyoani for what they don't do, instead of appreciating what they do (which is a unique feat)? It's a double standard I see everywhere and it stems from the fact that most western fans have a prejudice against low-key stories or, how they call it, "moeshit". BONES and Gainax are (were) okay at always doing the same and always animating the same stuff, because that stuff has cred and is accepted as is. But when someone focuses on low-key animation and realistic expressions, instead of flashy Kanada-esque action full of impact poses and explosions, they get shit for it.
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Old 2013-01-01, 13:51   Link #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
But when someone focuses on low-key animation and realistic expressions, instead of flashy Kanada-esque action full of impact poses and explosions, they get shit for it.
I absolutely love low-key animation and realistic expressions,I have a huge amount of respect for kyoani, that's why I want them to venture into other genres,why should slice of life /dramas be the only ones that get the benefit of their talent?
An episode like episode 4 of Shin Sekai Yori is fine already as it is,but put kyoani level realistic expression animation on it and it'd take another level.
Same with Kara no Kyoukai,it has some action but what's it's really known for is being an atmospheric thriller,it could certainly use some Kyoani expression animation as well.
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Old 2013-01-01, 13:54   Link #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Why are action sequences so important?
Because many people find them entertaining in and of themselves? And if they're well-contextualized, people tend to love them even more?


Quote:
Good animation is good animation, regardless of everything else.
Sure, nobody's denying that. But the importance of animation quality rises with the importance of the visuals in general, imo. Visuals are always at least somewhat important, but with an action sequence, they're the most important aspect. In a more lowkey scene, dialogue is often more important. Or BGM might be.


Quote:
It's okay if 80% of the fandom doesn't care for animation and only thinks of it in regards of how it affects the narrative, but for people that appreciate animation purely as a craft, there's not a problem with what Kyoani animates.
Everybody cares about animation, but I think most of us care about it as part of a whole, not as something that should be considered without respect to how it impacts the anime work as a whole.

With Nichijou, for example, I honestly think that it's explosive animation made some of its jokes less funny.


Quote:
To be certain, they're the only studio that truly focuses on minute character acting in TV anime, and they've been setting the standard for it since at least Clannad. There are action-focused studios, BONES for example. There are mecha-focused studios, Sunrise. So why should we criticize Kyoani for what they don't do, instead of appreciating what they do (which is a unique feat)?
... Do you seriously think that KyoAni is under-appreciated? I can't think of an anime studio that gets more lavish praise than KyoAni does.

And I've read Sunrise get criticized for "only doing mecha" (which isn't exactly true, mind you, but I digress).

So there's really no double-standard here.


Quote:
But when someone focuses on low-key animation and realistic expressions, instead of flashy Kanada-esque action full of impact poses and explosions, they get shit for it.
Hey, I think what KyoAni did with Hyouka was great. I just think it would be even better if they could pull off such consistently impressive animation in an action-oriented show.


Like totoum wrote, KyoAni has done wonders for a certain genre of anime - Why should the other genres get left out?
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Old 2013-01-01, 17:58   Link #1272
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
1) Lackluster sales, although this could be due to lack of marketing. KyoAni didn't really reach the status of "Global-Midas" till SHnY.
That definitely wasn't an issue. FMP was heavily marketed, and Kyoto Animation's "name" was already known (if less their "brand"). Consider that FMP:Fumoffu (KyoAni's big "debut") had average per-volume disc sales that were 70%+ higher than FMP:TSR. TSR also came right on the heels of the hugely-successful AIR adaptation. It's also worth noting that the FMP:TSR Tessa OVA sold over double the rest of the volumes. I would suggest that it's more that the serious "action-oriented" side of FMP in anime was more popular overseas, and the North American anime industry collapsed. The more light-hearted romantic-comedy side of FMP was more popular among disc-purchasers in Japan, but there are other franchises that can focus on that.


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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
2) The people in KyoAni personally stated that they found it challenging to animate action mecha, but considering the resultant quality... you could argue that it wasn't wasted effort AT ALL. If re-released today, it would still beat the tar out of most current anime in technical merit.
"Found it challenging" is also code for "it takes us more time and costs more money". If you're really good at one style of animation (and a lot of the animators you pay are good at that style), doing a different style is more difficult and time-consuming (and you may not have the best people in-house to do it). So if they're going to spend that extra effort it has to be worth it, not just in terms of "does the final product look good" (which I'm sure they could manage -- that's just a matter of how much of a perfectionist you're going to be), but also will it be worth the financial investment. Again, given that they have the choice, it's more advantageous to them to choose projects that play to the strengths of their team. It's also more advantageous for publishers and production committee members to give the work to a studio that specializes in a style that matches the work.


In the end, there's no prize awaiting Kyoto Animation if they branch out and explore all sorts of other genres, even though some people might wish they would just to see what would happen. It's not like they need to prove themselves or are looking for more work. If you think of Kyoto Animation as a community of artists, perhaps they're on a journey to perfect and refine their craft, and they're specializing in certain styles. The more they stay in that style (while still challenging themselves) the better they get at it, both in terms of time spent and quality achieved. You might even say that this mentality of perfecting an idea through countless iterations and refinements is a rather "Japanese" way of approaching the situation (whereas "pioneering/innovation" is a stereotypically-"American" approach).
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Old 2013-01-01, 20:06   Link #1273
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Because many people find them entertaining in and of themselves? And if they're well-contextualized, people tend to love them even more?
I mean important in the context of what Kyoani animates. While I really dig their general aesthetic, they probably have nobody that can make action at the level of guys like Yutapon, Kameda or Norio Matsumoto. Of course action is entertaining, I love action. I just don't go to Kyoani for my fix of action. The notion that the studio could make interesting action sequences just because they're the best at character acting is a bit naive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Visuals are always at least somewhat important, but with an action sequence, they're the most important aspect. In a more lowkey scene, dialogue is often more important. Or BGM might be.
Dialogue and BGM are more important in terms of emotional or narrative impact, but they're not visuals. And many people, including me, appreciate visuals much more than anything else simply because of some personal bias, or because it stands out more to them. Good character acting animation can be a thing to behold just because it is good animation, regardless of how the whole scene turned out. This is similar to appreciating a painting for the visual stimuli and technicality, instead of seeing how it ties into the painting's narrative. Other parts being there in anime, such as sound and dialogue are irrelevant.
I agree that action sequences rely more on animation than dialogue-driven scenes, but good character animation pays off, probably more than you think. Something like Letter to Momo would be a run of the mill mediocre movie if it weren't for Okiura making sure that every bit of movement felt as vivid as real life. There's a whole new layer of depth added when people pay close attention to what expressions their characters are making and why.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Everybody cares about animation, but I think most of us care about it as part of a whole, not as something that should be considered without respect to how it impacts the anime work as a whole.
And I'm completely okay with that. But I hope you can understand the people that like animation for the craft of it, even devoid of a strong narrative.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... Do you seriously think that KyoAni is under-appreciated? I can't think of an anime studio that gets more lavish praise than KyoAni does.
Not for the reasons I'm stating here. Kyoani has very strong marketing be it with Kadokawa or TBS, and they've created a brand name for themselves that will always guarantee them a bigger core base than most anime studios. But even amongst this fanbase, I'm always seeing people complain that they always make the same things (which is not true), and stating that they should branch out in such a patronizing way that it becomes unfair. Of course they're not under-appreciated as a studio, but I'm talking more strictly about animation here. I'm saying it again, but many seem to think that since Kyoani is very good at character animation, they have to be very good at everything related to animation. This simply isn't true, and if they start to focus their animation on something else that they've not honed for years and years (like character animation), they probably wouldn't be able to keep the standard they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why should the other genres get left out?
They shouldn't. I said in this thread that I would love to see them branch out and play with settings, aesthetic styles and narratives. But that's purely a decision of the directors and producers. If they only want to make light-hearted shows, I can't fault the studio for always making the best of those shows. It's not that other genres are being 'left out' as if they are being refused the entrance to an elite club.
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Old 2013-01-06, 10:59   Link #1274
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The one who loathed making mecha things was Takemoto, and he was speaking for himself. That was back in 2005 IIRC, nowadays with the popularity of CGI mecha and the huge changes the studio went through, things may be different.
Someone said that he didn't actually loathe mecha but rather that certain episode was just so stressing considering their size back then.

IIRC that mecha intensive episode(ep 4) choked them really hard in the production.. So Takemoto let Kigami cut any material off the script for that episode but alas, Kigami kept everything.

Anyway this whole thing came from a thread regarding the TSR extras.
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Old 2013-01-06, 12:18   Link #1275
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And before anybody questions if Madoka Magica is an action oriented show or not, here is something to keep in mind: Each and every episode of Madoka Magica had at least one scene of combat in it. And many of Madoka Magica's episodes had heavy quantities of combat and/or had its key moments be action scenes.
Maybe I'm not expressing myself right with "action oriented," as I consider Madoka action heavy.

Remember, Chuu2 had a lot of "fight" scenes and a lot of very important moments happened in them as well. A lot of Nichijyou gags relied on beautifully done over the top action. They are just action heavy, action scenes were numerous and were very important, but they aren't primarily about action.

Quote:
Why should the other genres get left out?
KyoAni is giving other genres some love. The last 3 series from KyoAni:
-Nichijyou (comedy)
-Hyouka (mystery/SoL)
-Chuu2 (drama/romance)

Nichjyou was completely new territory for KyoAni, Hyouka wasn't quite as bold, but still pretty experimental. It's not that KyoAni isn't giving other genres some love, it's just that said genres just aren't mecha and fighting.
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Old 2013-01-07, 01:06   Link #1276
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Originally Posted by rulfo View Post
Someone said that he didn't actually loathe mecha but rather that certain episode was just so stressing considering their size back then.

IIRC that mecha intensive episode(ep 4) choked them really hard in the production.. So Takemoto let Kigami cut any material off the script for that episode but alas, Kigami kept everything.

Anyway this whole thing came from a thread regarding the TSR extras.
Ah, thanks. I guess "KyoAni hates mecha" just got the "Cowboy Bebop didn't sell well in Japan" treatment, oh the internet.

Probably TSR being their worst selling series apart from Nichijyou (don't know if you can count Munto since the first half of it is the old OVAs anyway...) and that even if KyoAni did another season it wouldn't matter since there's so many more LNs after that. Same problem Spice and Wolf has, sure a 3rd season would be fantastic, problem is you would need 7 seasons since the first 2 only covered 4 out of 17 novels.

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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
KyoAni is giving other genres some love. The last 3 series from KyoAni:
-Nichijyou (comedy)
-Hyouka (mystery/SoL)
-Chuu2 (drama/romance)
The problem is that this is "all the same shit" for some people lol.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sure, nobody's denying that. But the importance of animation quality rises with the importance of the visuals in general, imo. Visuals are always at least somewhat important, but with an action sequence, they're the most important aspect. In a more lowkey scene, dialogue is often more important. Or BGM might be.

+

... Do you seriously think that KyoAni is under-appreciated? I can't think of an anime studio that gets more lavish praise than KyoAni does.
Firstly animation quality can vastly improve the scene of something that isn't non action, would the Haruhi God Knows scene be as amazing if the animation consisted of cg hands like it was Nodame Cantabile? Would the non rotoscoped scenes of Apollon be as good if they were like Nodame as well? Don't you remember the mini shitstorm with the first K-ON! concert scene because people were expecting God Knows v2.0? The second episode of Kannagi which had not much action scenes at all was a pleasure to watch because it was animated in 2s and had so much movement.

Secondly in some ways yes, when some company produces one well produced and animated show (and I'm not even going to get into how they're nothing like KyoAni's level of animation) and people act like KyoAni have been equaled, it shows clear under appreciation.. like Jay-Z said "I held you down for 6 summers, damn, where's the love?".

Last edited by Westlo; 2013-01-07 at 01:16.
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Old 2013-01-31, 08:44   Link #1277
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I have read, and a lot, regarding the Surprise 2013 project for Gatoh, and, ok, speculations and speculations.
Does anyone have any news from a tweet, or anything at all from Aya Hirano regarding her project, or any statement regarding the Haruhi franchise? It's that 3 year time lapse again, if I'm not mistaken, wich means I sorta believe that a new season might be popping up, but I can't speculate more due to failing on japanese translation.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:04   Link #1278
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Originally Posted by Ragecry View Post
Randomly winging in here..
I have read, and a lot, regarding the Surprise 2013 project for Gatoh, and, ok, speculations and speculations.
Does anyone have any news from a tweet, or anything at all from Aya Hirano regarding her project, or any statement regarding the Haruhi franchise? It's that 3 year time lapse again, if I'm not mistaken, wich means I sorta believe that a new season might be popping up, but I can't speculate more due to failing on japanese translation.
The only recent news involving the Haruhi franchise has been novel/manga related outside of the city of Nishinomiya holding a fair focusing on the locations used in the anime. There is nothing to report at this moment. It is also incredibly unlikely that Hirano would say anything due to confidentiality contracts preventing her from saying anything regarding roles. Personally, I wouldn't use her as a source.
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Old 2013-02-01, 08:29   Link #1279
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But considering all there is up to the moment (and most of all I've read of speculations around here and other sites), The probability of another season for Haruhi coming this year is pretty high, no? There's talk about the 3 year gap the series always had, and if I remember correctly this year is a 10 year anniversary for the franchise.

Anyway, I'm just one of these guys looking for more hope for this year, as the last 2 ones have been of complete void due to the animation, and I couldn't have myself migrating from the animated version to the Novels, sadly.
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Old 2013-02-01, 09:17   Link #1280
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But considering all there is up to the moment (and most of all I've read of speculations around here and other sites), The probability of another season for Haruhi coming this year is pretty high, no? There's talk about the 3 year gap the series always had, and if I remember correctly this year is a 10 year anniversary for the franchise.
There has been no publicity for another possible anime in Spring (and likely summer). Usually, Kadokawa markets their shows with at least 5 months advance notice prior to airing in order to help boost sales of their manga/novels and finalize anime-specific marketing for said publications. This would leave the Summer/Autumn seasons for a possible season as it stands currently. The 3 year gap was the result of switching Disappearance from episodes that would've likely aired in 2008 into a movie shown in 2010. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a significant detail.

You are correct that this year marks 10 years for the novels, but Kadokawa has already revealed two plans regarding publication promotions (new Ito artbook/collaboration with BakaTest). No further evidence has been given that leans towards a new season.
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