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Old 2012-12-25, 06:54   Link #1201
NoirX
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Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
It could be possible they honestly believe that; my best hypothesis is that they program that into the BETA due to the fact that given what the BETA are, their entire civilization is supported by Carbon-based "bio" technology and their "technology" has developed to the point of true AIs. The rule that no Carbon-based lifeforms can exist may also be the rule that keeps those AIs from identifying themselves as living beings, and to keep them from rebelling. Going from that, identifying humanity as living beings would be directly contradicting what amounts to the creator's version of the Laws of Robotics.

If I know how Kouki's stories usually orient, I would bet on the latter. That would mean the creators may try to exterminate humanity as quickly as possible if they found out we existed. Of course, barring the possibility humanity destroys itself before then, more despair for the masses.
They did try do they? It's proven they tried to destroy humanity by send hordes of BETA troops one wave after another.
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Old 2012-12-25, 08:33   Link #1202
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Possibility: The "Creators" may have been created by an organic race, but later rebelled and in turn created organic technology (EG the BETA) who then produce the materials needed for their survival (G-Elements). Thus the BETA invasions are twofold: To gather resources for their civilization and to destroy any possibility of organic life reaching a stage wherein it can challenge the Creator civilization for dominance.

Third possibility: The BETA -ARE- alive, but the standards of what the Creators consider life means they (and Humans) don't apply as living things. So even if we made an attempt to communicate, the Creators woudl think of us like we think of Viruses: non-living but potentially harmful entities.
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Old 2012-12-25, 08:56   Link #1203
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Hmm, I suppose so, but while ABS was not directly mentioned to have been derived from BETA tech, there still exists the possibility that research into BETA played a important part in its development.

At the moment, all we know is what ABS and how it works; from what we know, it only exists in the Muvluv Unlimited/Alternative universe where there are BETA. There's still a possibility that it can be derived BETA tech (if it was developed as a countermeasure to Alt 3, it could have come about while they were making sure their psychics could connect with the BETA), unless Age was to specifically deny it. Ultimately, this is all conjecture, especially in relation to the BETA. We know more about the complex socio-political scheming and romantic relationships of Muv Luv, than the BETA or their creators.
Actually, like most things in MLverse, ABS is something present in IRL as well. We already know that protein bindings in the brain affect the transfer and retention of memory through diseases that affect the brain (Alzhemers, and almost anything), since the control are by many different proteins and such. And we can create artifical proteins. There are times when I look through the latest breakthroughs in research and despair at how many can be weaponized...

So saying its something only possible through BETA tech is not really accurate, though the advanced version present in there may very well be due to cross functional expression of protien bindings in BETA, say if we want to use the ABS that cause the lipids in the body to become explosives, etc.

However, in that line of thought, you can say that everything in the MLverse is BETA derived, since everything from TSFs to the food they eat are for countering the BETA. Having the BETA come in during the 70s means that every tech develped on earth since then has to have been influenced by the BETA, thus BETA tech. If we talk about technology that is only possible through the use of BETA though, such as the Unit 00, that is a different thing altogether.
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Old 2012-12-25, 09:02   Link #1204
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grevierr, you're quite obsessed with Muvluv.

And for that, we thank you for providing the awesome chronicles which I wouldn't be able to enjoy otherwise.
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Old 2012-12-25, 09:03   Link #1205
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Ah yes, proteins. I thought I'd had enough about them in biology and biochemistry (and we covered a bit about biological warfare as well, actually), but nooo, they have to also follow me to this fanbase.
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Old 2012-12-25, 09:59   Link #1206
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Just read the summary of Chronicle resurrection ... Great job grevierr .... the cameo Silvio at Yukon base .. guess it all adds up

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Old 2012-12-25, 13:21   Link #1207
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Grevierr, you are totally awesome. Thank you for that Christmas present to all Muv-Luv fans.
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Old 2012-12-25, 13:22   Link #1208
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Now would be a nice Christmas and New Years present if MisterV suddenly pops up with the translated version of Schwarzesmarken. Guess can only wait and look forward to it.
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Old 2012-12-25, 13:43   Link #1209
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
So saying its something only possible through BETA tech is not really accurate, though the advanced version present in there may very well be due to cross functional expression of protien bindings in BETA, say if we want to use the ABS that cause the lipids in the body to become explosives, etc.
I admitted that to say that it was only possible was incorrect, it was a extreme assertion I realized; however, the possibility is still there. But unless there's no precise information, the only thing we can properly infer is based off the data available, which is not much.

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They did try do they? It's proven they tried to destroy humanity by send hordes of BETA troops one wave after another.
There no evidence that the creators even know we're here; the Superior is the one that's been sending those waves in a effort to "collect" resources and to "research" us. It thinks we're "machines" just like it. If the Creators knew about Earth and were trying to destroy humanity, I highly doubt we would last very long.

Given what the BETA are, and what they are doing, there is the possibility that the Creator's civilization is virtually run on G-elements, just like people say ours is on oil. Thus it could be inferred that they've been weaponizing G-elements and utilizing them on a galactic scale for quite sometime. Think of the XG-70s, now think of billions if not trillions of floating alien death fortresses far more developed than those occasionally defective human prototypes. All the assaults we have seen the BETA send throughout the MuvLuv world, are just tiny pokes by automated miners under the command of a restricted AI. It may take like a few seconds for the Creators to reduce our planet into cosmic ash.

Such dreadful possibilities is why I find the MuvLuv universe so interesting, I also find the possibility that the BETA are machines and view us as machines deliciously ironic given how frightful we are of our own machines rebelling. This latter cause is why I am especially interested in the thought of BETA as machines.

And Merry Christmas!
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Old 2012-12-25, 14:00   Link #1210
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I admitted that to say that it was only possible was incorrect, it was a extreme assertion I realized; however, the possibility is still there. But unless there's no precise information, the only thing we can properly infer is based off the data available, which is not much.



There no evidence that the creators even know we're here; the Superior is the one that's been sending those waves in a effort to "collect" resources and to "research" us. It thinks we're "machines" just like it. If the Creators knew about Earth and were trying to destroy humanity, I highly doubt we would last very long.

Given what the BETA are, and what they are doing, there is the possibility that the Creator's civilization is virtually run on G-elements, just like people say ours is on oil. Thus it could be inferred that they've been weaponizing G-elements and utilizing them on a galactic scale for quite sometime. Think of the XG-70s, now think of billions if not trillions of floating alien death fortresses far more developed than those occasionally defective human prototypes. All the assaults we have seen the BETA send throughout the MuvLuv world, are just tiny pokes by automated miners under the command of a restricted AI. It may take like a few seconds for the Creators to reduce our planet into cosmic ash.

Such dreadful possibilities is why I find the MuvLuv universe so interesting, I also find the possibility that the BETA are machines and view us as machines deliciously ironic given how frightful we are of our own machines rebelling. This latter cause is why I am especially interested in the thought of BETA as machines.

And Merry Christmas!
Well if demon bane made it on SRW there might be chance for MUV LUV.... if the beta creators attack earth .... Guess in a job for these guys

Spoiler for Broke the 4th and 5th wall to make a barrier:


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Old 2012-12-25, 14:09   Link #1211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
There no evidence that the creators even know we're here; the Superior is the one that's been sending those waves in a effort to "collect" resources and to "research" us. It thinks we're "machines" just like it. If the Creators knew about Earth and were trying to destroy humanity, I highly doubt we would last very long.

Given what the BETA are, and what they are doing, there is the possibility that the Creator's civilization is virtually run on G-elements, just like people say ours is on oil. Thus it could be inferred that they've been weaponizing G-elements and utilizing them on a galactic scale for quite sometime. Think of the XG-70s, now think of billions if not trillions of floating alien death fortresses far more developed than those occasionally defective human prototypes. All the assaults we have seen the BETA send throughout the MuvLuv world, are just tiny pokes by automated miners under the command of a restricted AI. It may take like a few seconds for the Creators to reduce our planet into cosmic ash.

Such dreadful possibilities is why I find the MuvLuv universe so interesting, I also find the possibility that the BETA are machines and view us as machines deliciously ironic given how frightful we are of our own machines rebelling. This latter cause is why I am especially interested in the thought of BETA as machines.

And Merry Christmas!
It is explained in Alternative that all Original Hives(which has The Superior as the main commander) are linked through the universe and its information are shared equally so it's almost certain that The Creator knows the existence of humanity and tried to destroy it by sending The Superior on Kashgar as the vanguard. It is also explained that it takes quite a long time(years, according to Yuuko's explanation also in Alternative) too send in another Superior to earth because BETA can't travel interspace in high speed, which Yuuko said by the destruction of Kashgar's Superior it gives humanity another 30 years chance of survival before another wave of BETA from outer space arrived in Earth and resuming its invasion. And before that happens humanity planned to retake all the Hives in Earth before they can start attacking those in the Moon and Mars and prepare themselves for BETA's reinforcement.
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Old 2012-12-25, 14:17   Link #1212
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It is explained in Alternative that all Original Hives(which has The Superior as the main commander) are linked through the universe and its information are shared equally so it's almost certain that The Creator knows the existence of humanity and tried to destroy it by sending The Superior on Kashgar as the vanguard. It is also explained that it takes quite a long time(years, according to Yuuko's explanation also in Alternative) too send in another Superior to earth because BETA can't travel interspace in high speed, which Yuuko said by the destruction of Kashgar's Superior it gives humanity another 30 years chance of survival before another wave of BETA from outer space arrived in Earth and resuming its invasion. And before that happens humanity planned to retake all the Hives in Earth before they can start attacking those in the Moon and Mars and prepare themselves for BETA's reinforcement.
We know they are linked, but we do not know if the Superior bothered sending the information on humanity to its Creators yet. It was still "experimenting" on humanity, and only recently decided to cancel the experiment. Not only that, there a frankly A LOT of Original Hives in the universe, and it is possible that the information would have been lost in the ocean of data coming in.

In either case, I find it extremely hard to believe a civilization like the Creators would be so willing to delegate such a task to mere mining machines, if anything they should have authorized the BETA to employ combat or research-specific strains rather than the blunt miners they have now. The risks of humanity tracking the BETA and re-engineering their technology would be way too great, if anything the slow mob approach the BETA are taking now is actually helping humanity by facilitating technological progress. If humanity had truly united and stopped trying to "prepare" for a "post-BETA Cold War", the BETA would have been defeated years ago.

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Old 2012-12-25, 14:58   Link #1213
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We know they are linked, but we do not know if the Superior bothered sending the information on humanity to its Creators yet. It was still "experimenting" on humanity, and only recently decided to cancel the experiment. Not only that, there a frankly A LOT of Original Hives in the universe, and it is possible that the information would have been lost in the ocean of data coming in.

In either case, I find it extremely hard to believe a civilization like the Creators would be so willing to delegate such a task to mere mining machines, if anything they should have authorized the BETA to employ combat or research-specific strains rather than the blunt miners they have now. The risks of humanity tracking the BETA and re-engineering their technology would be way too great, if anything the slow mob approach the BETA are taking now is actually helping humanity by facilitating technological progress. If humanity had truly united and stopped trying to "prepare" for a "post-BETA Cold War", the BETA would have been defeated years ago.
It is implied that The Creator is singular and thus it's not a civilization. Also the BETA's experiment on human isn't cancelled but finished. Another thing to note is that Original Hives are a version of an advanced quantum-proccessing computer, you can make an example of 00 Unit as a portable version of them so it's highly impossible that the data torrents that being shared by amongst all Original Hives been lost. The Kashgar Original Hive firstly didn't think humanity as a threat, thus the first wave of the invasion itself is just comprised of minner BETA strains. After the conversation between Takeru and Original Hive, the Original Hive concludes that humanity is a threat and with that the information of the existence of humanity as a threat will be transmitted amongst all Original Hives adding to the impossibility of such information being lost in the torrents of data because that is a new information to BETA.
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Old 2012-12-25, 15:17   Link #1214
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It is implied that The Creator is singular and thus it's not a civilization. Also the BETA's experiment on human isn't cancelled but finished. Another thing to note is that Original Hives are a version of an advanced quantum-proccessing computer, you can make an example of 00 Unit as a portable version of them so it's highly impossible that the data torrents that being shared by amongst all Original Hives been lost. The Kashgar Original Hive firstly didn't think humanity as a threat, thus the first wave of the invasion itself is just comprised of minner BETA strains. After the conversation between Takeru and Original Hive, the Original Hive concludes that humanity is a threat and with that the information of the existence of humanity as a threat will be transmitted amongst all Original Hives adding to the impossibility of such information being lost in the torrents of data because that is a new information to BETA.
Perhaps, we could go on this for days, but ultimately we're both just guessing I suppose. Even Yuuko admits that most of her statements regarding the BETA were hypothesis, what we get from the Superior may only be interpretation.

The Superior never explicitly states that it considers humanity a threat during its conversation with Takeru, all it directly states is that it considers humanity as resources to be re-processed; I don't recognize any part of that statement in which it lists humanity as a threat to "combat" even after completing its experiment; thus I had came to the conclusion that the Creator is in part unaware of humanity, given that the BETA have not changed their assessment during Takeru's discussion nor did the Superior consider the BETA-Human conflict a "war" at all.

For me, I just find it highly improbable that humanity as it is would have ANY chance against powers that span the universe. While the Creator may be a singular figure, it could also be interpreted as a single species; we just do not know.

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Old 2012-12-25, 15:58   Link #1215
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Perhaps, we could go on this for days, but ultimately we're both just guessing I suppose. Even Yuuko admits that most of her statements regarding the BETA were hypothesis, what we get from the Superior may only be interpretation.

The Superior never explicitly states that it considers humanity a threat during its conversation with Takeru, all it directly states is that it considers humanity as resources to be re-processed; I don't recognize any part of that statement in which it lists humanity as a threat to "combat" even after completing its experiment.

For me, I just find it highly improbable that humanity as it is would have ANY chance against powers that span the universe. While the Creator may be a singular figure, it could also be interpreted as a single species; we just do not know.
The Superior stated that humanity is "Great disaster" and needs to be prevented, that is assumed as a "threat" to The Superior(I just re-read the exact coversation ingame). By the way, humanity have a chance ever since the Susanoo destroyed the Original Hive, Susanoo's power was immensely powerful and when attacking Kashgar it only using 1/4 of its original full weapon(only the EM Cannon, the field barrier, and 36mms). When it's in full weapon it's unimaginable the destruction power it has. Furthermore they have 30 years at most after the Original Hive's destruction to rebuild as many Susanoo as they can with the addition of recreating another 00 Unit it's quite evident that they stand a chance even against BETA even if the BETA using full force.
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Old 2012-12-25, 16:41   Link #1216
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The Superior stated that humanity is "Great disaster" and needs to be prevented, that is assumed as a "threat" to The Superior(I just re-read the exact coversation ingame). By the way, humanity have a chance ever since the Susanoo destroyed the Original Hive, Susanoo's power was immensely powerful and when attacking Kashgar it only using 1/4 of its original full weapon(only the EM Cannon, the field barrier, and 36mms). When it's in full weapon it's unimaginable the destruction power it has. Furthermore they have 30 years at most after the Original Hive's destruction to rebuild as many Susanoo as they can with the addition of recreating another 00 Unit it's quite evident that they stand a chance even against BETA even if the BETA using full force.
The scene didn't state that humanity was the "great disaster", it was referring to the actions of humanity against it as the "great disaster"; in Takeru's case, the great disaster was destruction that would have been brought about by the missiles the XG-70 fired at it.

The Superior "attacked" to protect itself against humanity's "attacks", not that it considered humanity a threat as a whole. It believes humanity to be a equal to it, aka another machine, or "resources to be processed". Beyond that, it doesn't recognize itself humanity as a threat, nor does it recognize that it's "killing" anything.

Even with a army of Susanoos, humanity still only has a planet or two of G-elements to create and fuel those with, while the Creator has literally a universe of suppliers. Logistically, humanity is still in a crapshoot, and the Superior was only stating existences similar to it, in a precise response to Takeru's question. The Superior may have left out other existences for other roles, there may be even more BETA-analogs the Creator set aside for other tasks.

That's not even considering the possibility that there may be alien intelligences other than the Creator that also employ entities similar to the BETA and with a similar viewpoint. Humanity has only one small world, and there's a BIG universe out there. Even in the most realistic analysis of a potential full-scale alien invasion, the outlook is never good. I have come to believe that the only reason humanity has lasted so long in the MuvLuv verse is that the BETA (before and after finishing their experiment) never believed they were invading anything .
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Old 2012-12-25, 16:49   Link #1217
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The scene didn't state that humanity was the "great disaster", it was referring to the actions of humanity against it as the "great disaster"; in Takeru's case, the great disaster was destruction that would have been brought about by the missiles the XG-70 fired at it.

The Superior "attacked" to protect itself against humanity's "attacks", not that it considered humanity a threat as a whole. It believes humanity to be a equal to it, aka another machine, or "resources to be processed". Beyond that, it doesn't recognize itself humanity as a threat, nor does it recognize that it's "killing" anything.

Even with a army of Susanoos, humanity still only has a planet or two of G-elements to create and fuel those with, while the Creator has literally a universe of suppliers. Logistically, humanity is still in a crapshoot, and the Superior was only stating existences similar to it, in a precise response to Takeru's question. The Superior may have left out other existences for other roles, there may be even more BETA-analogs the Creator set aside for other tasks.

That's not even considering the possibility that there may be alien intelligences other than the Creator that also employ entities similar to the BETA and with a similar viewpoint. Humanity has only one small world, and there's a BIG universe out there. Even in the most realistic analysis of a potential full-scale alien invasion, the outlook is never good. I have come to believe that the only reason humanity has lasted so long in the MuvLuv verse is that the BETA (before and after finishing their experiment) never believed they were invading anything .
Actually I still wanna argue with that. Buuuut I think our discussion is getting too stretched since we're basically just speculating and hypothizing here so I guess I'll stop and leave it like that.
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Old 2012-12-25, 17:37   Link #1218
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Actually I still wanna argue with that. Buuuut I think our discussion is getting too stretched since we're basically just speculating and hypothizing here so I guess I'll stop and leave it like that.
Until Kouki makes a Alternative 2 or something focusing on the BETA, all we have is conjecture. Although, I think there is one thing we can all agreed on; given the story in Total Eclipse and Resurrection; is that the BETA aren't the only reason why humanity is screwed. You think what the XG-70 did to the BETA is impressive, imagine what that technology can do to other humans.
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Old 2012-12-25, 17:41   Link #1219
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Until Kouki makes a Alternative 2 or something focusing on the BETA, all we have is conjecture. Although, I think there is one thing we can all agreed on; given the story in Total Eclipse and Resurrection; is that the BETA aren't the only reason why humanity is screwed. You think what the XG-70 did to the BETA is impressive, imagine what that technology can do to other humans.
Of course that is still in my line of thoughts. It's just basically like.....a gas thrown into fire. Humans situation are already bad to begin with, and the BETA just made it worse. Which is why, yes I agree with you on that.
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Old 2012-12-25, 20:00   Link #1220
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Two words: Quantum Causality.

It might be that the threat humanity poses has nothign to do with our firepower/combat ability or whatnot, but the potential for individuals with the ability to change circumstances--so much so as to even bring individuals from alternate dimensions or to reset existence until the ideal reasult (or the closest ideal result) is achieved. EG, humans have the potential to be a "Demon" that changes the fabric of reality.

For further reading and comparison:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon (Might interest Gundam Unicorn fans, too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat (To Aru Majutsu No Index fans know this very well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpected_hanging_paradox (TAKERU THIS IS RECOMMENDED READING FOR YOU BEFORE YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING)
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