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Old 2012-12-20, 07:59   Link #5561
Destined_Fate
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The Coup wouldn't have worked had Orb not ben invaded though. The only reason Yuna recognized Cagalli was because Orb's forces were being overwhelmed and Cagalli only offered to help if Yuna acknowledged that she was Cagalli.

No one knows when, though don't expect too many changes in the HD Remaster.

Though I have a feeling they'll pull quite a few things from the Movies/Special Edition stuff and add it to the HD Remaster. Which should hopefully mean a better ending for Cagalli at the very least.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:48   Link #5562
amaterasu4
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Some stuff I heard about Gundam SEED Re: that is different from the anime:
*Captain Ramius does not pass out after Kira's first fight.
*After Kira kills one unnamed ZAFT pilot and Miguel, the Archangel destroys Heliopolis' interior wall.
*Nicol's character is more rounded and stronger than the TV series one but still is gentile.

Other than that there are still no news about a second volume yet.
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Old 2012-12-21, 00:34   Link #5563
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And exactly did crying achieve again? There's a time and place for that stuff. If anything her crying made things worse since she looked weak and if I was in ORB I wouldn't go against the military over someone that claims to be my Leader inbetween her crying outbursts.
Oh Christ, that's just overanalyzing. She's what, 17 years old? And after leaving the desert, she found out she isn't as much of a hard ass as she thought she was. She still cares though, which is why she cries. It annoyed me too, but it's not like it was totally out of character.
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Old 2012-12-21, 07:48   Link #5564
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It isn't over-analyzing. She had the time between SEED and SEED Destiny to get situated as a Leader of ORB, if she wasn't up for the task than she should have stepped aside yet she didn't. So whether she wanted it or not her position demanded that she grow up but she just chose not to. Than once Athrun was gone she was easily manipulated by Yuna and never questioned him at all. It took Kira of all people to talk sense to her and that doing what Yuna wanted wasn't in the best interests for her or ORB and in fact only served to legitimize Yuna's take over.

It was her inability to grow up that is the reason why most Nations "elect" their Leaders instead of the child replacing their dead parent.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2012-12-21 at 09:51.
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Old 2012-12-21, 08:50   Link #5565
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It isn't over-analyzing. She had the time between SEED and SEED Destiny to get situated as a Leader of ORB, if she wasn't up for the task than she should have stepped aside yet she didn't. So whether she wanted it or not her position demanded that she grow up but she just chose not to. Than once Athrun was gone she was easily manipulated by Yuna and never questioned him at all. It took Kira of all people to talk sense to her and that doing what Yuna wanted wasn't in the best interests for her or ORB and in fact only served to legitimize Yuna's take over.
Cagalli was "situated" as a leader of Orb. In fact, the only trouble she seemed to have was in preventing Orb from allying itself with the EA. It's like a US President whose veto was overruled by Congress. Cagalli seemingly did not have enough support in the government to veto this particular decision.

Also, seeing as how Orb's ruling positions seem to be hereditary in nature, at least when it comes to the 5 families, abdication may not be so easily done, especially if she is the only living representative of her family. Not to mention that relinquishing her power would only mean transferring more powers to the Seirans and other families.
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Old 2012-12-22, 20:22   Link #5566
amaterasu4
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Politics is not simple as people think especially when you only have experience as a soldier. Cagalli had less than two years to rule Orb and it is not easy when there are other politics planning massive changes. Athrun was there just as a bodyguard. He can't do anything to help her work other than being with her.
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:32   Link #5567
Destined_Fate
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Cagalli had no reason to rule than. That's why ORB went to hell and no one cared when Yuna did his coup. Quite frankly Yuna had far more experience to rule ORB than Cagalli even if he was a huge jerk. Siding with the Feds made sense and he was able to easily sell it to the people while Cagalli couldn't even convince her own soldiers that she was who she said she was(and her Neutrality stance was met with mixed views).

At least Yuna put ORB first since he saw an Alliance actually benefiting ORB unlike in the last war where Neutrality had ORB turned into a crater and would have again much sooner had Yuna not allied with the Feds. Or how Yuna decided to put up with Cagalli(whom he didn't really see as anything more than a child, all that was important was her blood and last name) was his future wife since it would give him more sway in running ORB.

The only reason she ruled ORB was because of her blood, she lacked any other qualifications and it showed during her break down and the successful take over the instant she was gone.

And the first thing she does after the war is over? Abuse her power and make Athrun, who is quite young and lacks the proper experience or military service in ORB(being Cagalli's lover and Bodyguard doesn't count), an Admiral of ORB. An Admiral takes years to become and you actually have to serve the military you're supposed to be an Admiral of. It also requires skills that Athrun completely lacks since Athrun is more of a hands on soldier while Admirals are supposed to command not fight alone or in small elite groups. Such high positions in a military shouldn't be handed out like candy just because Athrun is rocking Cagalli's world in the bedroom.

Only in anime does such irresponsibility and corruption not get you bitten in the rear.
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Old 2012-12-23, 14:14   Link #5568
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You know D_F, your posts remind me of the phrase: Every time you apply logic to anime/manga god kills a catgirl.

Sometimes it's best not to apply logic to these things. It only ruins your enjoyment of the series in the long run.
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Old 2012-12-24, 15:51   Link #5569
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Cagalli had no reason to rule than. That's why ORB went to hell and no one cared when Yuna did his coup. Quite frankly Yuna had far more experience to rule ORB than Cagalli even if he was a huge jerk. Siding with the Feds made sense and he was able to easily sell it to the people while Cagalli couldn't even convince her own soldiers that she was who she said she was(and her Neutrality stance was met with mixed views).
1- Yuna = same as Cagalli ( only in his position because of his family)
2- How is it right choose to enter war that have nothing to do with them?

Quote:
At least Yuna put ORB first since he saw an Alliance actually benefiting ORB unlike in the last war where Neutrality had ORB turned into a crater and would have again much sooner had Yuna not allied with the Feds. Or
1- Benefiting ORB? How? >>> Alliance didn't even joined Orb army in battle against ZAFT.
(It's like USA ask UK to join in war but the they let only UK fight the war that they started alone... > thanks god they won't do that in real life.)

2- Of curse Yuna want to protect orb... it's not like they prepared shuttle to run away and let their country burn (again).

Quote:
how Yuna decided to put up with Cagalli(whom he didn't really see as anything more than a child, all that was important was her blood and last name) was his future wife since it would give him more sway in running ORB.
Again, it's OK for Yuna to use family name power but not for Cagalli?

Quote:
The only reason she ruled ORB was because of her blood, she lacked any other qualifications and it showed during her break down and the successful take over the instant she was gone.
To have family that like to scheme under table =/= she lacked any other qualifications.
Yuna family act as learder who love their country but the true is that all of them run on last war.
(That why they still have a lot of power.)

Quote:
And the first thing she does after the war is over? Abuse her power and make Athrun, who is quite young and lacks the proper experience or military service in ORB(being Cagalli's lover and Bodyguard doesn't count), an Admiral of ORB. An Admiral takes years to become and you actually have to serve the military you're supposed to be an Admiral of. It also requires skills that Athrun completely lacks since Athrun is more of a hands on soldier while Admirals are supposed to command not fight alone or in small elite groups.
If you want to blame someone than blame the director.
Even now I don't get it why they give him Admiral rank in SE unlike Captain rank in GSD anime.
And it's even weirder because in SE there is 2 Admirals in one ship.
Unless they do it like that because they want Athrun stay in Eternal and make it easier for communication between Orb and Terminal( ORB army don't need to follow Terminal order but it's another story if it come from their own admiral

Either that or director just want to make peace with Cagalli fun by showing that Athrun is back for good to stay with her... And now he can stay with her publicly since he is no longer mere bodyguard but an admiral.

In other word it have nothing to do with logic.

P.S.: First Admiral in Ark Angel is Kira. (GSD anime)
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Old 2012-12-24, 20:17   Link #5570
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Not the same. Yuna was bred fr his position and was well acquainted in the political space while Cagalli was not.

Simple, it meant the Alliance wouldn't attack ORB and fighting ZAFT guaranteed that they would be treated favorable with the Alliance due to Logos. Thus Yuna put his people first because he wasn't about to let ORB be dragged in with no allies in a war that was effecting everyone. You know like Cagalli's short sighted father who let ORB burn in the last war because of his foolish pride and refusing to face the reality that even if he said he was neutral it didn't mean his nation was safe.

Yuna didn't just use that, he showed far more skill in the Political Arena than Cagalli seeing how he even got the military accept his rule and to denounce Cagalli who was making the same mistakes as her father.

Doesn't change that until the Logos reveal ORB was safe from war because Yuna allied with the Alliance and had his forces fight way from ORB soil. Cagalli would have waited until war was knocked at her doorstep just like her father before deciding that neutrality wasn't working.

Athrun and Kira have done nothing to earn ranks of such high military positions, that cannot be denied. If anything they're just over glorified foot soldiers that are getting rewarded just because they're figureheads not because they actually have the ability of those stations.

The Alliance fell apart by the time ZAFT invaded ORB due to the outrage over Logos. At the time allying with the Alliance was smart, Yuna just made a wrong move by shielding Logos because he had gotten in too deeo.
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Old 2012-12-24, 23:02   Link #5571
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Not the same. Yuna was bred fr his position and was well acquainted in the political space while Cagalli was not.

Simple, it meant the Alliance wouldn't attack ORB and fighting ZAFT guaranteed that they would be treated favorable with the Alliance due to Logos. Thus Yuna put his people first because he wasn't about to let ORB be dragged in with no allies in a war that was effecting everyone. You know like Cagalli's short sighted father who let ORB burn in the last war because of his foolish pride and refusing to face the reality that even if he said he was neutral it didn't mean his nation was safe.

Yuna didn't just use that, he showed far more skill in the Political Arena than Cagalli seeing how he even got the military accept his rule and to denounce Cagalli who was making the same mistakes as her father.

Doesn't change that until the Logos reveal ORB was safe from war because Yuna allied with the Alliance and had his forces fight way from ORB soil. Cagalli would have waited until war was knocked at her doorstep just like her father before deciding that neutrality wasn't working.

Athrun and Kira have done nothing to earn ranks of such high military positions, that cannot be denied. If anything they're just over glorified foot soldiers that are getting rewarded just because they're figureheads not because they actually have the ability of those stations.

The Alliance fell apart by the time ZAFT invaded ORB due to the outrage over Logos. At the time allying with the Alliance was smart, Yuna just made a wrong move by shielding Logos because he had gotten in too deeo.
Well you like to apply realpolitik to a Gundam anime, but I would say that Gundam Seed was not meant for that. Yuna's character was supposed to stir annoyance, disgust and for viewers to rebuke him - because simply speaking, he betrayed his country's most fundamental principle. Screw all that realpolitik, I bet my life that the directors didn't think that far, as you certainly did.
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Old 2012-12-25, 06:10   Link #5572
The American Average
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I bet my life that the directors didn't think that far, as you certainly did.
i'd bet they didn't what the hell they were doing at all, let alone the politics point of view
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Old 2012-12-25, 07:38   Link #5573
Destined_Fate
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Of course they didn't think that far when they did this, they were rushed to capitalize on SEED popularity.

It's just another thing I've notice on what they did very poorly with Destiny.

Should have went with the original plan to kill Kira and Mu at the end of SEED and letting Athrun and Shinn hero it up in Destiny. It would have worked perfectly since all Newtypes/spatial awareness guys(outside the Manga which as far as the Anime cares is non-canon) would be dead by Destiny and they wouldn't have needed to create Rey just to mimic the Rau vs Mu sensing each other stuff. Thus humanities future would be in their hands and not in the hands of those with special powers.

SEED doesn't count because Cagalli had shown that even Naturals can achieve SEED.
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Old 2012-12-25, 18:10   Link #5574
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SEED doesn't count because Cagalli had shown that even Naturals can achieve SEED.
Mu is also a Natural.
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Old 2012-12-26, 03:37   Link #5575
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Athrun and Kira have done nothing to earn ranks of such high military positions, that cannot be denied. If anything they're just over glorified foot soldiers that are getting rewarded just because they're figureheads not because they actually have the ability of those stations.
Kira need to be admiral to let Ark Angel join Orb.
For few simple reason, e.g.:
1- They don't want anyone to control such a dangers power
Unless you don't mind for someone who is higher rank than Murrue Ramius(Captain) to control power equal to nuke.

2- They need someone who can give order to both group when they need it.
(Orb want to go right and Terminal want to go left >>> he already done it in anime when Lacus was hesitation .)

3- Do you really want someone from Seiran to annoy the person who can terminate your whole army on whim?

4- He is the Ultimate Coordinator >>> He could easily master all theory parts about admiral >>> with war >> he can master practical part.
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Old 2012-12-26, 05:06   Link #5576
Znozzy
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Kira need to be admiral to let Ark Angel join Orb.
For few simple reason, e.g.:
1- They don't want anyone to control such a dangers power
Unless you don't mind for someone who is higher rank than Murrue Ramius(Captain) to control power equal to nuke.
What? No, Kira doesnt need to be admiral to let the Arch Angel join orb, Cagalli let the Arch Angel join ORB. (even if it wasnt official)
Quote:
2- They need someone who can give order to both group when they need it.
(Orb want to go right and Terminal want to go left >>> he already done it in anime when Lacus was hesitation .)
Kira is terrible at giving out orders, hell, when he gave one half the maincrew reacted
Quote:
3- Do you really want someone from Seiran to annoy the person who can terminate your whole army on whim?

4- He is the Ultimate Coordinator >>> He could easily master all theory parts about admiral >>> with war >> he can master practical part.
That is unknown, we have no real idea what the Ultimate coordinator is, or how it gives him a advantage over regular coordinators except that he is a tube-child and apparently, the genetic modifications (like eyecolor and haircolor) is perfectly transferred from the babygenetics-schematics parents pick them from.

It removes the uncertainty that is the female womb out of the question, apparently. That seems to be the only advantage Kira had over other coordinators from what SEED told us

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Athrun and Kira have done nothing to earn ranks of such high military positions, that cannot be denied. If anything they're just over glorified foot soldiers that are getting rewarded just because they're figureheads not because they actually have the ability of those stations.
Actually, Athrun has a military career, was part of the black ops team striking at heliopolis back in SEED, he was put in a leader position back in SEED aswell.
Athrun has leadership capabilities and prior military training, is a Hero of Zaft and the son of a prior chairman, one would except a prodigy of that sort to rise up in ranks fast.

in his own bloody country and not another nation, but well. Banging the president-princess seem to be paying off for him

Kira, on the other half, has done nothing to earn a high rank except a high killcount, so i agree with you there.
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Old 2012-12-26, 07:50   Link #5577
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That doesn't justify him getting the rank, he's just a figure head with none of the qualifications for that rank. Admiral in name only unless Cagalli has become really incompetent and actually expects Kira to somehow fulfill the duties of an Admiral despite Kira's lack of experience and qualifications. You know due to the fact that he's still young and is just a glorified front liner with no real command experience.

Kira, despite being a mary sue, will never abuse the Strike Freedom to get his way. Furthermore as an Admiral he isn't even supposed to fit on the front lines anymore because that's not what Admirals do.

Kira doesn't have the authority to command either group, all he has is a big enough gun to force cooperation. That will last forever just like the Freedom didn't last forever.

That would go against Kira's character, he wouldn't terminate either force just because they don't do what he wants.

Ultimate Coordinator or not, he still lacks the qualifications, experience, popular support from the military, very few years of service, and is too young. Look at ZAFT, coordinators everywhere but you don't see any teenage Admirals do you?
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Old 2012-12-26, 08:51   Link #5578
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That doesn't justify him getting the rank, he's just a figure head with none of the qualifications for that rank. Admiral in name only unless Cagalli has become really incompetent and actually expects Kira to somehow fulfill the duties of an Admiral despite Kira's lack of experience and qualifications. You know due to the fact that he's still young and is just a glorified front liner with no real command experience.

Kira, despite being a mary sue, will never abuse the Strike Freedom to get his way. Furthermore as an Admiral he isn't even supposed to fit on the front lines anymore because that's not what Admirals do.

Kira doesn't have the authority to command either group, all he has is a big enough gun to force cooperation. That will last forever just like the Freedom didn't last forever.

That would go against Kira's character, he wouldn't terminate either force just because they don't do what he wants.

Ultimate Coordinator or not, he still lacks the qualifications, experience, popular support from the military, very few years of service, and is too young. Look at ZAFT, coordinators everywhere but you don't see any teenage Admirals do you?
He wouldn't terminate either force just because they don't do what he wants?
What if Serian + alliance order them to purge Coordinator city?
(Serian + alliance will do it if they joined Orb at the end of seed with their low rank, after all they done that to their own city in Destiny )

Also we all know power >>> force peace ( you can't have peace only with ideal)
Freedom didn't last because he wasn't serious ( you can like it or hate it but that is the truth.)

To make it simple, Cagalli know that not all of Orb 5 family support her(Serian family still here, they just lose their head but the body still alive).
+
She want to be sure that no one abuse their power since AA + SF = whole army
1 ship + 1 MS >>> better than few fleet (not just one fleet).

More simple word: Kira admiral of one ship that can crush whole fleet.
(Didn't Kira solo 3 ships + 25+- MS in lesser 3min?)

So Cagalli have to either give him admiral rank or give nuke button to someone who is higher than Captain and lose great power. what will you choose?
(Too bad orb don't have FAITH rank.)

Also Ultimate Coordinator > let Kira to re-program OS that he never saw or use and upgrade it while fighting not Natural but Coordinator. (try to use C# or another language to program OS).
In other word his mind >>> a lot better than Coordinator mind let alone Natural one.

(Normally it's Ultimate Coordinator > 1st generation Coordinator > 2nd generation Coordinator > Natural unless you are Mu but that why I said normally)

Kira = Ultimate Coordinator + 1st generation
So he can learn all theory about Admiral before anyone can voice his opinion >>> soon he will have full army under his command >>> to bad he move to ZAFT.


And No young Coordinator have admiral rank? have you forgetting about Yazak?
ZAFT don't have army rank but Yazak = admiral because he have fleet (few ships and many MS) under his command.

Finally, no Admiral fight in front line? Tell that to Haman, Yazak...etc
It's like old war>>> most generals like to fight in back like with strategy while other like to fight in front line to give their order on the spot.
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Old 2012-12-26, 09:34   Link #5579
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Also Ultimate Coordinator > let Kira to re-program OS that he never saw or use and upgrade it while fighting not Natural but Coordinator. (try to use C# or another language to program OS).
In other word his mind >>> a lot better than Coordinator mind let alone Natural one.
No, Kira being a engineer/programmer enabled him to rewrite the OS, if you don't remember the first episode the professor hands him extra-tasks because he has knowledge within the fields
Quote:
(Normally it's Ultimate Coordinator > 1st generation Coordinator > 2nd generation Coordinator > Natural unless you are Mu but that why I said normally)

Kira = Ultimate Coordinator + 1st generation
So he can learn all theory about Admiral before anyone can voice his opinion >>> soon he will have full army under his command >>> to bad he move to ZAFT.
You have no proof Kira learns anything faster than usual coordinators
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Old 2012-12-26, 09:59   Link #5580
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That's the thing, Kira isn't an Admiral in anything but name. He has no authority, he has no command. The only thing he has is that he can scare people with the Strike Freedom which would mean he's being just as bad as Durandal who wanted to scare people to obey or pay the price.

Kira is a warrior, it will take him years even with intense study to actually lead from the rear instead of the front lines. Lacus has more experience as an Admiral than he ever has and that says a lot considering Lacus usually just lets Waltfield do everything which is smart. Waltfield actually has real knowledge and experience when it comes to leading.

No, Yzak isn't an Admiral. Just because he has some ships and some MS that doesn't make him an Admiral.

Haman isn't an Admiral, she was the Leader of Zeon and she only fought in the front lines when needed. Most of the time she was in the rear commanding others to fight because her duties were vast and required more than trying to god mode everything.

A good example of a proper leader is Sima Yi or Zhuge Liang who rarely fought in directly in front lines, they had Generals do that while they formulated strategies and looked at the big picture. Only rarely did those like Sima Yi actually have to fight in the front line over others, they usually stayed in the camp to quickly issue orders to other units as the battle called for it. Far more valuable than Zhao Yun(Kira here) trying to fight everyone.
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