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Old 2012-12-19, 17:31   Link #2301
Keroko
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I don’t like Miura because, to me, she isn’t that big of a deal. She came out of nowhere, her only quality is that she hangout with the Yagamis for some reason and she has the same personality as Einhart but without the “cool” side of hers: strong and yet timid and insecure girl, ring any bells? And yet she beat Vivio, the main character and when you use the main character to make side/secondary characters shine, you are not going in to my good side.
I'm sorry... Miura having the same personality as Einhart? That's not even remotely close. Strong yet timid and insecure is the only thing they have in common. Miura is fare more eccentric whereas Einhart keeps her cool to the point of facade, more outspoken whereas Einhart chooses her words carefully, more prone to nervous outbursts while Einhart calmly reacts to situations, more impulsive where Einhart observes and analyses, happy contrary to Einhart's passiveness, an open book opposed to Einhart's masks, the list of differences goes on and on.

And Vivio getting beaten seems to be a trend in this manga. Einhart also beat her. Thrice.

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ViVid is just so boring, has nothing going on for the tons of fight scenes and so far any character is even memorable beyond its power or design. I feel that way. Yes, Nanoha could be a little like Miura but where Nanoha show us how cool she was and stand up all on her own to face Fate and the Jewel Seed incident, with the TSAB coming in later, Miura needs the Yagami to make her backstory make sense. If you think about all she has is that the Yagami think she is something, and that is it. So no, I don’t like her one bit. And I just say it.
And Nanoha needs Yuuno to have her backstory make sense. Honestly, that particular point is just grasping at straws. Miura is the Yagami's students in the same way that team Nakajima is Nove's student. That doesn't make bad character design in any way.
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Old 2012-12-19, 17:54   Link #2302
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Yeah, but that is being made up by things we can see. I do know that in both cases I can expect Einhart and Miura to be timid and socially awkward while on battle they can both be really competent. And is just that need to focus their “moe” on how more blushing and timid they can get what it feels too similar and I will never get that feeling away. And to be fair Einhart has more of a character than Miura but they are both just timid… because, and is never bring a good reason. Yeah Ein is cool and Miura is just a mess but they don’t look that different to me and to be fair they haven’t had too much interaction with the rest of the cast or between themselves. In the end the main difference is that one controls her nerves and the other is control by them. That is it. And is not enough for me to make me like a character that I just didn’t like to begin with.

Besides don’t get me wrong, Vivio does lose a lot, but all that other defeats serve a purpose or at least try to present them with a little more on them. You see when Vivio loses to Einhart while trying to make friends with her, there is something going on for both characters beyond the fact they are fighting. With Miura what is going on? They are already friends; they just happen to be on different sides and… that it is. There is no story there and taking out the main character from the tournament: why should we keep the tournament then?

And let me explain my last point. You see, Nanoha is a character on her own rights, and she define herself as a very competent and skill mage with a few weeks of training, taking on Fate who had years of practice. Miura on the other hand really show nothing, she came out of the blue and how they explain it? The Yagamis say she is awesome. That is the kind of freedom they take with a character that has a backstory with other characters and just shows up to be something because of that. Is kind of like in StrikerS Hayate just introduce Carimm as her best friend to Fate, kind of out of nowhere. And on Miura this does bother me because she defeated the main character and she is just a side character, not an enemy, not a rival, a side character that is all of the sudden the “Hayate” of this season because she is with the Yagamis.

So to try and make myself clear is the fact she is just put on the light over Vivio and she isn’t something we can use. You never use a main character to make side characters look good, ever. You can be beaten but the point is to upgrade the main character because the story is the one we are reading, right? So Miura feels like she is being insert as the last time add to an already oversize cast with bland characters.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:19   Link #2303
Keroko
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Does everything need a deep profound explanation? Miura is timid because she is timid. It's simply who she is. Yes, they could have given her some deep reason like she has an abusive, strict family that doesn't tolerate her constant failures or something, but what would that really add? It'd just be drama for the sake of drama, really. Some people are just timid because that's who they are.

And again, that similarity aside they are polar oposites, so your claim that they are similar just doesn't add up.

As for Vivio, it's interesting you claim that her loss against Miura is pointless. It isn't. In fact, I'll go ahead and claim there was far more of a point to her loss here than any of her prior losses. Do note how after the fights she and her friends got together and had a good cry over their loss. Now remember that Vivio lost several times before, and react with naught but a bright smile and a compliment.

So how is this significant? Because this is the first time Vivio failed to achieve her goal. Vivio's fights prior to this were, as Einhart put it early in the manga, hobby fights. They could fight, lose, and laugh it of without losing anything. In this tournament however, Vivio had a goal. And her loss against Miura prevented her from achieving that goal. In other words, this fight was the first time Vivio was faced with the real concept of losing and the pain that comes with it. That is a major point of growth and development for any budding character.

In fact, this makes Miura directly responsible for the first point of character growth for Vivio in the entirety of Vivid so far. That's a huge plus from whatever angle you're looking at it.

And Nanoha has a startling reputation of characters appearing "out of nowhere and using main characters to make those side characters look good" as you put it. It happens every season so I'm not sure why Miura is some sort of exception here. Heck, she was gently introduced over several chapters, that's just about the least sudden introduction of any Nanoha character we had ever. Fate? Came out of nowhere and immediately trounced the main character. Wolkenritter? Came out of nowhere and immediately trounced the main character. Only strikers was relatively light on this.

Hell, Einhart is more guilty of what you accuse Miura of doing. She came out of nowhere and proceeded to beat Vivio three times in a row.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:22   Link #2304
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And Nove, she came out of nowhere and trounced Nove first. Let's not forget that.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:25   Link #2305
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I actually see where are you coming from, Keroko, and I might even agree with you in general. But then again I must say why I don’t think this applies here. You see having a side character who is just timid is fine, and yes it can happen some people are just like that but if you are going to make them more relevant or even take the spot of the main character you need to add something, because if that happen we will want to know more so the simples ideas for a side character can’t not hold up on that case and Miura still feels like a side character. And that is how the story seems to consider her as well since she wasn’t from the beginning and she was just introduce now as the new Yagami member.

I can take a few characters like this one that come out of nowhere if you are going to development or make them have impact on the story. Like the Wolkenritter or Fate came out in Nanoha’s world. They did remain and something that adds to the story and the plot give us a reason for them being here. But when every single character just appears there, with so poor content and such bland personality I am not in the mood to make them part of my new favorites and they don’t leave that much of an impression on me, to the point I have to check Google to keep up with the names.

Your point of Vivio losing is actually a good one. But doesn’t really add here and this is why I think that: you see they do have hobby fights and this tournament is nothing but a hobby. There isn’t a single reason for they to win, this is not their all time sport, this is not their only change to be someone or their one and only dream. They just decide on a wimp they will be part of this tournament after the trip to the Alpine household so really there isn’t any emotion or connection here. Since all the characters are good friends and they loosing will not make them actually lose something, the battles are too much free of well content. I know is cliché to have them fight for a money they need to pay for something for their love ones, but that at least will create room for us to care if they do lose or win. Here? What Vivio lose? She wanted to win but as much she wanted to win with Einhart in previous fights, she hasn’t being train her entire life for this, just a few months and overall this is just a hobby. Is like you losing a Yu-Gi-Oh! Tournament and taking that as a life change experience. Is just odd and doesn’t make me care that much.

So I dislike Vivio lose because even with her on the tournament the plot was already boring, and now without the main character, who am I supporting here? Don’t get me wrong, you can like this or this girl to win but who is the focus of the story, what is the ultimate goal? No really something to be win here since they can lose, like that girl with the swords did with Miura, and go on with your life without even caring about it. Yeah, Vivio dealing with loosing and not getting the objective will be fine but there is none of those elements here because there isn’t even a story that we can talk about. The lack of an antagonist or even a goal beyond just winning your fight is putting the story on a low base od basic and boring fight scenes that really add nothing. All fights could be 5 pages long that all that matters is the end and move on to the next one.
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Old 2012-12-21, 03:19   Link #2306
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So I dislike Vivio lose because even with her on the tournament the plot was already boring, and now without the main character, who am I supporting here? Don’t get me wrong, you can like this or this girl to win but who is the focus of the story, what is the ultimate goal? No really something to be win here since they can lose, like that girl with the swords did with Miura, and go on with your life without even caring about it. Yeah, Vivio dealing with loosing and not getting the objective will be fine but there is none of those elements here because there isn’t even a story that we can talk about. The lack of an antagonist or even a goal beyond just winning your fight is putting the story on a low base od basic and boring fight scenes that really add nothing. All fights could be 5 pages long that all that matters is the end and move on to the next one.
I agree with this. With Vivio losing and Einhart losing soon (I doubt she can beat the champion), where will the manga going? They have to show the rest of the tournament, but Thunder god vs the champion just isn't very exciting to me because I do not have emotion invest in either of them.
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Old 2012-12-21, 03:23   Link #2307
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Given her wide and continuously growing variety of personality traits and ticks, calling Miura a flat character sounds hollow. In fact, it's very interesting you call her bland when she has one of the more varied personalities around.

She is a side character though, that I do not disagree with. But a side character defeating a main character is not bad storytelling. Indeed, the very purpose of side characters is to provide situations of development, growth and change to the main character, and in that respect Miura accomplished her intended purpose just fine.

You see, you are very, very wrong when claiming Vivio and her friends joined the tournament "on a whim." They had been looking forward to this for a long, long time and have been training quite hard to make it there. Note for example how they cheer that they are "finally" old enough to enter the tournament. This isn't just a whim, it is a dream. No, it's not a life changing experience like a life or death battle in the other Nanoha series, but then Vivid has never been about serious business ever since, what, chapter 3? It's a slice of life manga, which means that the growths of personality will adjust to that pace as well. And then still, losing a tournament you have dreamed of competing in is still a shocking experience. Unlike your magic example, this tournament was preceded by months of intense training. That is a loss you will feel as you put a ton of hard work into it.

And guess what? Vivio does feel it. And it hurts. And she vows to put even more effort into it and grow stronger because of it. So regardless of your claim that she shouldn't feel so bad about this, she does. And it does make her grow.

And then we get to the point where you lay the blame of the tournament continuing on the wrong person again. After the loss of Vivio, the main character, the tournament could have been over. But it can't. Why? Because there's a certain character that still needs to outshine Vivio. Again.

And it isn't Miura.
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Old 2012-12-21, 10:14   Link #2308
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Well, you seem to be seen a lot here on this story Keroko, something that I can’t do. Sorry if you like Miura but she is not a rich character no matter how you look at her. She has some hints of a personality and then, as fans, we made up the rest. Because is our take on the character that makes it rich or not. And you might say this applies to all the characters but no, this can be say about most ViVid characters but the ones from previous seasons did had some development, at least some of them.

And I am not wrong about the tournament. It was bring out of nowhere like: “By the way Einhart have you ever hear about this tournament? Is super-awesome and we are going, come with us” you see one thing is us already knowing they are training for it and seeing how this is important and another is just being told so bland about it, like this was just some place they are going. If you want to construct this as something important some foreshadowing is need. Otherwise feels flat when you just say that now they are in a tournament when so far this was just to have fun and be friends with each other.

And no, Vivio “feeling” the defeat is not enough to redeem an overall bland story, why? Because so far this hasn’t been take with any bit of “drama” and now is important? Why wasn’t important before? They were just having fun and getting beat while having fun is not something to be crying up later because you will look more like a crybaby than anything else. You see when you character grows out of a lame and simplistic excuse is not good.

You might think I am just not seeing what you see but I believe you take too serious something that isn’t mean to be serious at all. The story is flat and when tries to construct more it ends on a joke, because how week everything is. The characters are bland, the story is boring and the strongest points from it where the thing about Vivio and Einhart having that blood relationship with the old kings that comes back in play with another character we never hear about until now.

I never say Einhart taking such lights was a good idea but at least makes more sense than Miura because she is the co-protagonist. You might like this kind of stuff but is so not interesting that I can’t buy for one second the “grow” on Vivio’s character because this is just not a serious business as you say it yourself. If this is a slice of life manga then why we still know so little about Vivio? You see ViVid seems to feel like a proper 4th season to the story and not just side material because of all the thing going on it and if you want to focus your story on not really serious stuff then why this crap with tournament and fights that go nowhere?

I’m sorry but I just don’t but this at all. Like I already say, this isn’t a story, this lacks drama and so seeing a character taking it so serious all of the sudden when it hasn’t being a reason for it until that point will look more odd than anything else. If you like the story is fine but I am afraid this is not really what I can call good or even average.
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Old 2012-12-21, 18:24   Link #2309
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Your denial of Miura's character traits does not mean they do not exist. A flat character implies the character only has one or two personality traits and no background. Miura has several and the recent chapters expanded her background (to the point where we know more on Miura's background than that of Einhart. Think about that for a moment.).

And yes. The tournament was out of the blue. For Einhart. The other characters, Rio, Corona and Vivio had been looking forward to this for years. Down to the point where they were intricately familiar with every detail of how the tournament works. They knew about it, they'd been preparing for it. That means that no matter how much a surprise it is for us, for them it was not just a whim.

Frankly, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen characters break down after the fight either. It's usually that they try to hold it in, try to be strong before they break down and cry anyway. Seems to be the case here as well. Vivio was sad when she woke up, but quickly put up a brave face because Miura walked in all crying and worried. It wasn't until she sat down with her friends and talked about it that the walls began to crack. And funny thing? I've seen the same thing happen in real life, so it's damn well possible.

And of course I take this story seriously. No, it's not doom and gloom "The world depends on our victory!" and I am disappointed such a plot is missing, especially after it was hinted at in the initial chapters, but even a slice of life story can have character growth and drama. There's a rather long list of shows that do this. Clannad, Girls und Panzer, Aria, Majikoi, Little Busters, the list goes on and on. All of these had stories that weren't "serious" but they still had character development and drama, ranging the gammut from decent to damn good. The plot being calm does not exclude character development.

Now on the subject of Einhart. Yes, I do want to stay here, because you're moving goalposts. You said that without Vivio, the main character, you've lost interest in the tournament. Cool. But it's not Miura's fault that the tournament is still the focus of the manga now, so laying the blame at Miura is just grasping at straws at this point.

Continuing on, you mentioned a funny thing. "why do we still know so little about Vivio?" You're right. And that has been one of my major complaints about this manga so far, and once again my finger will point at Einhart. Because every single time we get more info regarding Vivio's original, the Sankt Kaiser herself, it is used to develop Einhart. Not Vivio. That is bad storytelling, yes, but it doesn't mean Miura's fight doesn't fill in the gaps left by the author's mysterious desire to focus on this new character rather than the titular character. It's an improvement, if anything.

The leap of logic you take here is quite confusing, really. Because the manga handled Vivio flimsily before suddenly any growth she makes becomes invalid? Wut?

Bottomline regarding this? Einhart steals all of Vivio's past life parts, so what we're left with is how Vivio grows from this point onwards. Miura helped by beating Vivio, showing Vivio what actually losing something you wanted to achieve feels like and focusing her will and determination to get stronger.
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Old 2012-12-21, 20:19   Link #2310
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Could be look like this but I will have to disagree with you again. I have been thinking about Miura as a character and her motivations: why she want to be strong? Why she hang out with the Yagami so much? Does she even has parents? How she was this brute diamond Signum was talking about? And even if she was why they feel the need to train her some more? No, I am afraid Miura is flat because she is strong and she is a bundle of nerves. And that is all we see from her. She doesn’t have a reason to be this timid or being so odd with the training and then have such raw power other than lucky. Is funny when you told me Miura didn’t need deep reasons and Einhart has been more develop but now Miura is more than Einhart. Think about it.

We do know about Einhart a lot but still she feels empty. Where are her parents? Why is she so obsess with her past self? Is this a common thing on her family? Why her house looks like a gym? And, just to be clear, until Vivio was clone and Ixpellia appear what was going to be hear goal in life? But we are giving a simple explanation. She needs to be the strongest so her ghost can feel a little better with himself for losing to his own girlfriend when he was alive. Is it good? In a better story, yes, here not really at least not the way it’s made out to be but is still something, more than Miura’s no reasons to be strong.

And the tournament was out of the blue for Einhart and the reader. That mean us. Because I don’t think they even bother mentioning this tournament until that point so it was out of the blue. No, it doesn’t matter what the character knows, it matters how you present it on the story and this was the worse way possible because didn’t made room for us to care and most of the time you want the reader to care for the character dreams and motivation so when we see them fight for it in the tournament I can feel the drama. I mean “drama” is just seeing our characters fight against opposition and if we like them we do want them to succeed. Here I just see a bunch of cute little girls showing way too much skin and underwear while hitting each other for no good reasons.

Won’t be the first time that a character breaks if lose, agreed and it won’t be the last time. But since the manga already fail to tell me why winning was important seeing Vivio react to loosing it just comes out as she not wanting to lose because… she wanted to win and that isn’t enough for me to care. We all want to win, but if you can’t deal with loosing in your hobbies then don’t play. The story doesn’t give us anything on the characters, we don’t see any passion coming from them and is all more just a happy-friendly aura of “this is going to be awesome”. While is the best for a real life tournament it feels cheap for a story when I am stuck looking this fights.

We do seem to agree on one thing at least, Keroko, and is that the story is missing. I was also looking forward to this manga when I read the first chapter. Now this is just a low of what that look like and I tend to seem they kill almost any change they could have to make this actually good. The bland setting and the poor characters aren’t really the best place to be talking about drama or character growth, at least this slice of life feels cheap and while that doesn’t mean all of them feels the same this one didn’t make it to a good or even half decent feeling. The manga is boring as hell. And to me, that is the worst crime of ViVid.

I am afraid you didn’t get me. I don’t blame Miura for the manga to bee sucking, I blame the author who put Miura on such a spot, since she really doesn’t do anything but kick Vivio and cry. She didn’t talk to Vivio about how it feels loosing, she didn’t teach her to stand back up even when all looks down, and she just beat Vivio and went crying about it. So talking about Miura teaching anything to Vivio is really not important because Miura isn’t on the role of a mentor or even a close friend. I bet if she was the one who lose she will be crying as well.

What you don’t seem to get and confuse is that I say we need more Vivio and I reject a fact that didn’t add anything of value to her character but rather just kick her out of the plot. My point is that the defeat didn’t make Vivio grow or was handle well, so she not being more on the tournament makes me care even lees about it. Because its now going without the main character. If this was actually good I will agree Vivio need to learn, but again considering the bland setting and emotions that this story has the defeat doesn’t add anything that is worth mentioning and Vivio’s conclusion is not even about going on be stronger is about helping Einhart win. WTF?!

Yes, I have being noticing how Einhart looks like the new main character now being develop while making a new character being related to her past, making Vivio even more insignificant. Because now we have Jeremiah, the other guy who was also there and wasn’t mention until now because the author didn’t think about it before. And then you can see how the tournament feels on the reader, something the author didn’t think until now and is made part of the story, just that they didn’t knew about it. I was actually thinking this should happen if Vivio and Einhart fight again on the tournament but to make Vivio grow not to make Einhart and Black Rock Shooter there being more similar and important. I didn’t like it and I think is a flaw of the plot.
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Old 2012-12-27, 08:27   Link #2311
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So, based on the images I've seen, apparently Einhart loses? With that, our main cast has all lost, and the manga can wound down to a finish...

...unless the tournament was just an arc to get them to meet people, and we'll actually get some plot as they delve into the whole Olive/Claus thing. Yes, I'm dreaming. /sigh

...unless this story is now all about Miura?
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Old 2012-12-27, 08:39   Link #2312
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~~ ...unless this story is now all about Miura?
I can live with that.

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Old 2012-12-27, 08:51   Link #2313
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Er, Vivid is obviously not just about the tournament. I think the mangas tries to present all the Kings in the pasts in the present, how their influence affects their offspring (lol), and how Vivio and Einhart eventually come to a resolution with their ancestors.
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Old 2012-12-27, 08:52   Link #2314
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So, based on the images I've seen, apparently Einhart loses? With that, our main cast has all lost, and the manga can wound down to a finish...

...unless the tournament was just an arc to get them to meet people, and we'll actually get some plot as they delve into the whole Olive/Claus thing. Yes, I'm dreaming. /sigh

...unless this story is now all about Miura?
The second seems most likely if ViVid continues. And if I remember correctly, Sieg also had ties to the Ancient Belka, so they would most likely go to her.

Thus more Yuri hijinks.
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Old 2012-12-27, 08:54   Link #2315
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I really hope is not. Miura is just… not that good even if she isn’t as bad as I say she is.

Well I must say I am not surprise Einhart lose that fight. What I am surprise is how long it take. Considering what she and Sieg talk I guess we will have maybe something out of all that past about Jeremiah, Klaus and Olive playing some kind of role in the next few chapters. But the tournament arc should be done for; there is no longer main cast on it. But then again I think it will go on with Miura, Lutecia and all the rest.
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Old 2012-12-27, 12:49   Link #2316
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I just want to know how she lost, did you see that sample image in the other thread of Sieg with the giant claw arm?
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Old 2012-12-27, 16:32   Link #2317
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I don't think it matters that much since it was obvious who was on the lead all the time. Almost every single hit Einhart did connect made more harm to her than her opponent. So really Sieg could win the match at any time she wanted to, the fight was one sided all along.
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Old 2012-12-27, 18:52   Link #2318
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So Sieg has Thorns?

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Old 2012-12-27, 19:59   Link #2319
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If Einhart was a Shura, Sieg was a Royal Guard who used Reflect Shield (40% reflect damage), and thus, Einhart defeated herself.

Einhart: ASURAAAAAAAAA STRIKE!
Sieg: Reflect Shield!
Sieg received 40000 damage! Sieg has 540000 HP left!
Einhart received 60000 damage! Einhart fainted!
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Old 2012-12-27, 20:14   Link #2320
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No really, but that could be fun. Sieg just had a super plot-armor that even break the 4th wall and enter the story making almost impossible for Einhart to cause any amount of significant damage.

In short, was a lot of BS since even when Ein get mad and attack Sieg each hit made two digits damage to Sieg and three digit damage to Einhart herself. That is why I say it really doesn’t matter. Einhart was this close to lose for self-knockout
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