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Old 2012-12-28, 02:04   Link #501
Akito Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escimo View Post
Say you agree with the content of the post and the post is in your opinion helpful and well constructed, you don't "promote" it because it doesn't conform with the popular opinion?
It'll get up-voted but more likely than not the popular opinion will be getting more promotions. If the point was to filter out the rubbish, it's only "showing" what's the most popular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escimo View Post
This would suggest a situation where your opinion is a polar opposite of everyone else's which is never the case.
Make that "majority." I think you know what I meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escimo View Post
Well... That's true enough. Although I find it hard to believe that the praise floodgates would open to that extent.
But they're already open. The occasional critic are the large rocks breaking the water's flow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escimo View Post
All I'm saying that the if the system's benefits outweigh the issues, as they would in my opinion, the fact that there are foibles in the system isn't exactly a matter of global extinction. So it wouldn't hurt to lighten up a little.
If it wouldn't hurt to lighten up a bit then I see no point in a system promoting or demoting anything at all. You're right; it's a form of entertainment and we should just enjoy it for what it is if we really wanted to lighten up. But the fact that people can go several pages talking about anime tells us that some of us take our Japanese cartoons very seriously.

Though if criticism is mitigated enough, I highly doubt any author would be willing to get his shit together and start improving his craft.
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Old 2012-12-28, 02:06   Link #502
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I logged on animesuki today and suddenly the opening lyrics to King Missle's detachable penis song started playing in my head.


Where did it go?
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Old 2012-12-28, 02:10   Link #503
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I logged on animesuki today and suddenly the opening lyrics to King Missle's detachable penis song started playing in my head.


Where did it go?
At least you can't get STDs now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Do you know how the elder members of the community influenced me the most when I was still pretty new to Anime Suki? Through posreps.

Posreps helped ensure that I didn't hold back and stop voicing dissenting opinions. The reputation system allowed people to encourage others without having to actively get involved in the debate themselves.
Or they could I dunno....join in the debate and back you up? Or if they held opposing views, still thank you for your post openly on the forum itself while debating?

It's not worth having a feel good system if the tradeoff is the equivalent of a phone where people can give you nuisance calls any time because the number's public
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Old 2012-12-28, 06:23   Link #504
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escimo View Post
Starting an argument on political systems certainly wasn't my intention.
I live in a multi-partisan representative democracy which admittedly has its strengths and foibles. But none the less is certainly not directly comparable to the issue in hand.

The point was simply that having a system biased towards majority rule to somehow quantify contributions of a member to a discussion forum has its benefits and dismissing them simply on the fact that they are biased towards popular opinion is in my opinion runaway idealism.
I don't think you and I share the same definition of runaway idealism. In fact, I think idealism is the only thing holding your concept together.

Reality has shown us that many people aren't able to handle this in a mature fashion, given what happened with the rep system. The problems of cliques is just going to show up again.

Quote:
True, a +/- system does not represent democratic process in this case but it's based on the same basic principle albeit with perhaps even larger foibles.
It's quite the opposite. It's inherently placing value on a certain voice, rather than the concept of having each voice be equal.

Quote:
But let's face it having a system to promote (I use the term quite loosely considering that the only reward is a few extra inches on the virtual penis.) users based on their contributions as evaluated by their peers is hardly a civil rights violation and saying that it somehow subjects individual action to a vote is stretching the metaphor quite thin.
Good thing I didn't use that metaphor then. But regardless, it'd still a tool supported by the rules to allow passive aggressive behavior. And that's what people were complaining about.

Quote:
I hold that if some system like this contributes to forum members being civil, constructive and active the benefits of the system outweigh the problems caused by the polarization of opinions or majority rule. (Which is a massive misnomer since we're still talking about little green boxes that do only a little else than take screen real-estate.) Even if that system works through popular opinion.

It's just that I really can't come up with any system to promote posting well thought of, well constructed and informative posts as a behavior than some kind of peer review resulting to some kind of reward even if it's pretty much based on placebo effect.
There's a great system but it requires effort. You see an insightful post and add insightful thoughts to it. My problem is that such a system of like and dislike requires absolutely zero thought to it and honestly if one were to support my posts without putting any serious reasoning, well, I don't need that kind of support at all. It's just a roundabout solution. Drawing on support is good for generating better arguments through input-- relying on support is just weak willed.

Well, +/- stuff works on places like Youtube. But that's only because most comments are trash and it's hardly moderated. So it works if you're going to ignore most of what's posted.

Quote:
I would see a benefit of post ranking in several areas of this forum. Take episode discussions for example. Some will like it, some will not and some will be indifferent about it. In cases where these views split relatively evenly the top ranked posts would probably include representatives of all aforementioned views ranked in the order of popular opinion on the episode. However beyond that they would represent the most informative and well articulated opinions.
I've thought of that myself earlier in this thread, but as Relentless pointed out, this kind of thing tends to fall apart for polarized discussions.

======Back to the topic at hand=======

As an unrelated note, I really did like the rep system somewhat as a vanity tool. But as a tool for generating useful discussion, it's a pretty big joke. Honestly, I would take some people a bit more seriously if they would admit the same over making excuses of rep fulfilling some kind of higher existential need. Not targeting anyone in particular, but am I really the only one that's willing to admit that? If you've ever made a post about how rep is Serious Business, I probably laughed at it and negged you afterwards. True story.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-12-28 at 06:38.
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Old 2012-12-28, 06:58   Link #505
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I have one thing to say about this thread and then I'm never saying anything in this thread ever again.

Rep being removed is the best thing that has ever happened to AnimeSuki.

The End.
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Old 2012-12-28, 07:34   Link #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I logged on animesuki today and suddenly the opening lyrics to King Missle's detachable penis song started playing in my head.


Where did it go?
Into the hands of a fujoshi in an arts school preparing for her final year project. The title is "While Auguste Rodin Thinks", and the project theme is "Perspective".
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Old 2012-12-28, 09:42   Link #507
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I'm so glad this happened. I refrained from posting anything for at least a year (heck, I stopped coming for a long while) when I kept receiving negative reps for silly reasons.

THANK YOU, AnimeSuki!
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Old 2012-12-28, 10:57   Link #508
MrTerrorist
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Ok, i think i'm getting Cold Turkey for not rewarding fellow users for whatever comment/work/pic/link they do. With the Rep system now gone i feel...... incomplete.

-Remembers something SaintessHeart said-

You know? SaintessHeart idea of positive only rewarding system that gifts users with lolis doesn't sound bad once you add shotas, bishonens, bishoujos, catgirls, traps, attractive older parents and whatever character type into it.
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Old 2012-12-28, 10:57   Link #509
NoirX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noe View Post
I'm so glad this happened. I refrained from posting anything for at least a year (heck, I stopped coming for a long while) when I kept receiving negative reps for silly reasons.

THANK YOU, AnimeSuki!
Although, rather than avoiding negrep like that you can just disable the rep altogether. Because personally I think it's a shame that someone has to hold him/herself from posting what might be a good and quality post just because he/she is afraid of a negrep that one will recieve from someone.
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Old 2012-12-28, 11:23   Link #510
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirX View Post
Although, rather than avoiding negrep like that you can just disable the rep altogether. Because personally I think it's a shame that someone has to hold him/herself from posting what might be a good and quality post just because he/she is afraid of a negrep that one will recieve from someone.
Not to argue against that but you didn't usually get negrepped for voicing a different opinion. You got negrepped for voicing a different opinion in a (c)rude way. Unless you mean to tell me that some boards hold such retarded individuals that they should have been closed down already, a thing I don't believe, even though I do come across known morons here and there, some of whom are unfortunately quite resilient.
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Old 2012-12-28, 11:41   Link #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Not to argue against that but you didn't usually get negrepped for voicing a different opinion. You got negrepped for voicing a different opinion in a (c)rude way. Unless you mean to tell me that some boards hold such retarded individuals that they should have been closed down already, a thing I don't believe, even though I do come across known morons here and there, some of whom are unfortunately quite resilient.
Some were just outrageous. :/

I posted my reasons for liking Fate Testarossa in an actual MSLN fandom thread, where it's OK to post stuff like that, and I didn't infringe upon anybody. (now if I posted that out of the blue in a Code Geass thread, that's a diffferent matter) The comment for the negative rep was "Fanboyism is dangerous, and it can limit people's thinking" - I thought "...what?" And another one iirc was about "Your age of 17 shows in your post" - just because I supported a character in the International Saimoe League Thread... hah.

Also, "we're more afraid to lose than to gain." It got to the point that I didn't care about posting anything anymore until something was done.
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Old 2012-12-28, 11:42   Link #512
Sinestra
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im kind of bummed i was proud of my rep that took 7 years to build But if the Admins felt it was better for the site then i will trust their decision.
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Old 2012-12-28, 12:14   Link #513
NoirX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Not to argue against that but you didn't usually get negrepped for voicing a different opinion. You got negrepped for voicing a different opinion in a (c)rude way. Unless you mean to tell me that some boards hold such retarded individuals that they should have been closed down already, a thing I don't believe, even though I do come across known morons here and there, some of whom are unfortunately quite resilient.
As Noe said, Those kind of people(let's just say fanatics) are surprisingly alot in this community that even different kind of opinion that differs from one accepted opinion is given a negrep. It's quite a common thing that things like that happen and cause people to refrain from posting like what Noe experienced. I for one got negrepped for just giving another positive alternative on a thread but I just ignore it like nothing happen at all(probably most people can or they can't do this I don't know but yah). Which is why actually I suggest to just disable the rep and be ignorant of those kind of fanatics.
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Old 2012-12-28, 13:04   Link #514
DonQuigleone
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The neg rep problem is easily solved by removing it...

As for cliques, I don't think the reputation enabled the forming of cliques, it's just that the cliques that did form (and will form no matter what you do) tended to use it.

If you wanted to prevent any cliques from forming you'd probably have to switch the site to anonymous posting, with all it's other problems...
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Old 2012-12-28, 13:11   Link #515
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirX View Post
As Noe said, Those kind of people(let's just say fanatics) are surprisingly alot in this community that even different kind of opinion that differs from one accepted opinion is given a negrep. It's quite a common thing that things like that happen and cause people to refrain from posting like what Noe experienced. I for one got negrepped for just giving another positive alternative on a thread but I just ignore it like nothing happen at all(probably most people can or they can't do this I don't know but yah). Which is why actually I suggest to just disable the rep and be ignorant of those kind of fanatics.
Disabling the rep seems fishy. The general consensus here was that disabled rep was, more often than not, a negative, as someone else already mentioned. People's predisposition is a valuable tool in an argument. For me and many others, a blank rep was essentially red, so sometimes, I didn't even care to argue back.

My own reason for not posting much is not caring enough to argue against something anymore. I never feared the negreps. Usually people who gave them around sometimes (me for example ), aren't exactly saints so, most of the time, what goes around, comes around. Most arguments just end on the "agree to disagree" stalemate or someone ends up getting banned (that last part used to be a game in certain boards but whatever, I won't go into details :P). People who don't care about an argument's outcome don't post in the first place, unless they're offering an opinion from a somewhat neutral standpoint.

As for the fanatics and that stuff, I would know. I thought my reputation preceded me I don't really care about reputation been removed altogether, although some easily applied positive feedback like the positive reputation votes wasn't hurting anyone.
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Old 2012-12-28, 13:14   Link #516
Kirarakim
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Most of my neg reps were because people didn't agree with what I said. At least I assume because they were usually left blank or had some nasty message attached "you are an idiot" or something to the regard. And I understand negative reps shouldn't be taken seriously but you know it isn't something pleasant to see.

I am not sure what I did in the very beginning of these boards but for the longest time its been my policy to not negative rep anyone for anything because I don't think negative reps teach people about their behavior (maybe in rare occurrences) instead I think they are a rude power to have over someone. If I don't like something someone posts or I disagree with them then I will tell them on these boards and not hide behind an anonymous rep system.

Now as I said before I thought the positive rep system was a nice way to show appreciation for someone's post but there is no reason we can't do that through PM or on our profile page. In fact I got 2 messages recently on my profile page which I thought was rather nice. I am going to start doing that myself more too. Why should we be tied to a rep system to say something nice about each other and to encourage one another. And this way you aren't limited with the number of times you can do it.
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Old 2012-12-28, 13:53   Link #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Disabling the rep seems fishy. The general consensus here was that disabled rep was, more often than not, a negative, as someone else already mentioned. People's predisposition is a valuable tool in an argument. For me and many others, a blank rep was essentially red, so sometimes, I didn't even care to argue back.
While that holds true, I'm thinking of something logical like...."Why would someone looks fishy when he/she disabled their rep while their post contents are actually that of good and quality ones. Can't people judge from posts instead of the disabled rep?". If you're just using negrep to others because you disagree with others point of view regardless of their post is a good one or not, then it means you're just purely selfish and that alone makes you liable to argument discussions. Basically, even if it's quite unpleasant that you get blank rep and such, as long as you're a member of the community you're free to voice your opinion. If you don't, then there's no point in joining as members of the community in the first place I think.
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:04   Link #518
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
And these people can't encourage you via private or visitor messages?
On private messages... I'm honestly amazed that people keep bringing this up, due to a clear and major weakness in the PM system.

PM boxes are capped at 100 total. Many people here (myself included) have a hard enough time keeping our PM boxes freed up as it is. It's not at all uncommon for me to PM someone and get the message that this user's PM box is full and hence I can't send a PM to that individual.

The only way PMs could even begin to be seriously considered as a substitution for posrep messages is if the PM boxes were increased in size from 100 to 150.


VMs, similarly, are already pretty heavily used by people. Do we really want to add to that clutter by also using VMs as a substitute for old posreps?


The PM/VM/posrep division was a very good one, I think. Each method of contacting another user had its particular uses, and distinct pros and cons. And by having these three different methods, you cut down on the clutter within each of them.


Quote:
A rise or decrease of great discussion throughout threads is also dependent on what is being discussed... I mean if Ore no Kanojo to Osananajimi ga Shuraba Sugiru sparked massive amounts of fanboy was are you seriously going to try and pin that on the removal of the rep system?
Is that property more popular than even Sword Art Online? Or Madoka Magica? Or Fate/Zero?

The fact is that every year there's at least a couple very popular shows. If the most popular anime show of 2013 ends up spurring on better discussion than what SAO did, then I'd at least consider the impact that no neg rep might have had here. On the flip side, if the most popular anime show of 2013 ends up spurring on more flamewars than what SAO did, then I'd at least consider the impact that no neg rep might have had here.

If we're going to run a fair and thorough experiment here, then we should also consider the potential negative impacts that removing the reputation system might have. To do otherwise is simply being closed-minded and biased to a fault, imo.


Quote:
Did you read the Macross Frontier forums as it aired?
No I didn't.


Quote:
Rep did f all for the amount of shit slung between the massive amount of Sheryl shippers and the smaller Ranka contingent. The only reason you don't still see shipping wars in that forum today is because Relentless and the other mods had enough and banned it outright.
Fair enough. Lack of shipping wars can probably be chalked up to moderation more than anything else. Shipping wars are hardly the only form that flamewars can take, though.


Quote:
First things first, it was what Kadokawa decided to do, you should know that by now, secondly lol @ "not liking Endless 8" being a controversial opinion. What next, you're going to be brave and say SAO's ALO is a horrible arc?
No matter how crappy a popular property gets, it will always have a lot of fans pushing back at even the slightest criticism of it. Heck, you yourself basically admit this when you write...


Quote:
Lets be real, when it comes to shows that popular noone really cares what a member says, no matter how well regarded.
Which is partly why I think some anti-reputation system arguments on this thread are overblown. In my experience, getting pos rep can be encouraging when confronted by fanboys that want to shout you down. I think that has a much bigger impact than receiving negrep for voicing unpopular opinions - The fact is that if you voice unpopular opinions, you're going to face heavy pushback for that regardless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post

Reality has shown us that many people aren't able to handle this in a mature fashion, given what happened with the rep system. The problems of cliques is just going to show up again.
I still have yet to see anybody put forward a concrete example of how cliques were causing real problems here on Anime Suki. So I'm inclined to think that the clique problem is getting overblown.


Quote:
It's quite the opposite. It's inherently placing value on a certain voice, rather than the concept of having each voice be equal.
Are all opinions of equal value? Or are some opinions better thought out, better considered, and/or better presented than others?


Quote:
As an unrelated note, I really did like the rep system somewhat as a vanity tool. But as a tool for generating useful discussion, it's a pretty big joke.
Rep points themselves weren't a particularly useful tool for generating useful discussion. But I think that the comments that accompanied them were.

Positive reinforcement, and words of support, can prove encouraging at times.

Now, some people have suggested that PMs and VMs should be fine in accomplishing that, but there are flaws here.


If people here are serious about using PMs as a permanent substitute for posrep comments, then I would encourage them to voice support for increasing PM box limit size. After all, if you're going to increase what PMs are used for, that should be accompanied by an increase in the total limit for PMs.
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:24   Link #519
npal
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Originally Posted by NoirX View Post
While that holds true, I'm thinking of something logical like...."Why would someone looks fishy when he/she disabled their rep while their post contents are actually that of good and quality ones. Can't people judge from posts instead of the disabled rep?". If you're just using negrep to others because you disagree with others point of view regardless of their post is a good one or not, then it means you're just purely selfish and that alone makes you liable to argument discussions. Basically, even if it's quite unpleasant that you get blank rep and such, as long as you're a member of the community you're free to voice your opinion. If you don't, then there's no point in joining as members of the community in the first place I think.
The notion locked into place BECAUSE most of the blank rep ones were ruder than average posters, otherwise I doubt people would have that issue. When I first came here many years ago, I didn't know what the hell that black box meant at first. But the rule worked, that's why people use it. You'll obviously start unprejudiced but I've seen my share of retards with disabled rep to not bother much with them. If I read something that's ridiculous and the person has disabled rep, I know not to bother with them. The opposite goes (excluding mods and admins) for the high rep members, you know you're at least talking to decent people.

Normally, you don't use negrep for simply disagreeing, but I'm not sure how the system ended up being used by most. I can say though that the more recent negreps I got were, in hindsight, more justified than not, so I take it the system was working as intended.
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:42   Link #520
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Normally, you don't use negrep for simply disagreeing
But that is what many people used it for. What you think people did not abuse the system? People were anonymous so they didn't care.

Also I know a lot of people who disabled their rep who were perfectly respectable posters. A disabled rep was not equivalent to red.
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