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Old 2012-12-28, 13:41   Link #161
Eragon
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I am not quite sure where all the "Sakura is being shafted" comes from.

In real wars did people put their medics on the front lines?


They didn't. What's even the point of that?
LoL, in front of the Jubbi, everywhere is frontline.
And did you even read what Casshern wrote?
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Last edited by Eragon; 2012-12-28 at 17:14.
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:23   Link #162
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Good lord, do you have a perpetual bad temper or something? I've never seen you post anything about the actual chapters, only attacking members who post something even the slightest bit negative about either the writing or a character. Get off your high horse.
You make me laugh. You're actually accusing me of being on a high-horse because I'm questioning the reasoning behind some people's complaints, and challenging certain “criticisms”; people who return evey week with nothing but negative comments even if they get what they asked for the previous week. I'm actually not the one on a high-horse.

Quote:
"If circumstances had been different" means it could have happened, but didn't. But I guess common sense eludes you.
You argued that Naruto never “180'd” on his ideals, and I gave a counter-example. Please explain where common-sense eluded me?
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:56   Link #163
janipani
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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Sakura may as well not exist, and it's been this way since she falsely confessed to Naruto, betrayed her team, tried to kill Sasuke (another betrayal towards Naruto) and then chickened out of that too. All those events had absolutely no purpose other than to ruin her character.

I can only speculate that, to Kishi, Sakura represents someone that he knows IRL whom he is not particularly fond of. I can't think of another reason why he would senselessly destroy a character like that. I can't imagine that in some part of his mind he could've thought that this would make for good drama or development.

He practically killed her off without killing her off. Anything that involves Sakura since then is a non-issue, just a page filler. Shame, since I liked her in part 1.
Oh yesh! Certainly some woman has crushed Kishi's heart in IRL, and some sort of bitterness towards women and mutual love certainly is there! Sakura isn't only one, but obviously most obvious character to represent that feeling.
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Old 2012-12-28, 16:26   Link #164
neshru
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Originally Posted by popsiclestix View Post
Hinata now has the biggest target on her back.... man if she really dies, they better wrap up the manga really fast. Else, there would be some very pissed off fans.
She will die... and then she will be resurrected among everyone else at the end. That's the real reason why she didn't die during the Pain arc even though everyone got resurrected anyway. Cause you know, killing a character twice just to resurrect it twice would have been kinda lame, so let's not do that.
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Old 2012-12-28, 16:52   Link #165
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
LoL, in front of the Jubbi, everywhere is frontline. Sakura isn't the only who was shafted - how much of the rest of Naruto's group did you see for quite a while now?
And did you even read what Casshern wrote?
...And missing my point entirely. Sakura is doing her job. What else do you want?

And I'm not sure what any of this has to do with a post by a guy who claims to be able to read an author's mind, and even goes so far as to call Jiraiya a failure?
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Old 2012-12-28, 17:28   Link #166
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
You make me laugh. You're actually accusing me of being on a high-horse because I'm questioning the reasoning behind some people's complaints, and challenging certain “criticisms”; people who return evey week with nothing but negative comments even if they get what they asked for the previous week. I'm actually not the one on a high-horse.
I see you talk down to people, with lines along the likes of ignoring common sense, ignoring the author, and ignoring facts. How is that not being on a high horse?

Also, note how you went and started trying to attack me for negatively commenting on Sasuke? Guess what smart guy, I was actually just addressing someone else who had a complaint about Naruto while blindly praising Sasuke. But I guess that eluded you in your valiant quest to prevent negativity. Bravo.

Quote:
You argued that Naruto never “180'd” on his ideals, and I gave a counter-example. Please explain where common-sense eluded me?
Your counter example was really before he took up the whole "No more hatred" thing. Before that, he was just fighting to protect those he cared about. It wasn't until after Minato calmed him down that he took up the whole "no hatred" thing in addition to his prior ideals.

Either way, this is somewhat off topic, and I'm done with it.

Last edited by GDB; 2012-12-28 at 17:42.
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Old 2012-12-28, 18:39   Link #167
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
...And missing my point entirely. Sakura is doing her job. What else do you want?

And I'm not sure what any of this has to do with a post by a guy who claims to be able to read an author's mind, and even goes so far as to call Jiraiya a failure?
Nobody expects anything from Sakura any more, because everyone knows she's a non-factor. Her character depth can be summed up in about as many words as Kiba. Sakura can heal. Kiba has a dog. That's it. She may as well not have a name at all because she's not even distinguishable from the other 10000 ninjas in the alliance.

I never claimed to understand the authors mind. If anything, I stated that I clearly don't know what he is thinking because I don't understand why Sakura turned out to be such a bad character. Everything else was speculation on my part, which I also stated.

I never called Jiraiya a failure either. I just said he failed to win Tsunade's heart, which is a fact and it doesn't make him a failure. Although he also did fail to bring back Orochimaru to the good side, and he failed to do something about the hatred in the world. So really, he failed at all his biggest goals. But I still wouldn't call him a failure, after all, he molded Naruto into the savior who probably will actually rescue the world from hatred. The only one who would call Jiraiya a failure at this point is probably Orochimaru.
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Old 2012-12-28, 20:58   Link #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
We all had love interests when we were in elementary school, but only a very few actually end up to live with that person, i guess less than 1%
But you're right, this manga is not really realistic about that. And we saw after the timeskip that Naruto didn't change, he was still after Sakura.
But i think Sakura's fake confession which was one of those moments where Naruto was unusually smart had the opposite effect on Naruto, Naruto clearly gave up on Sakura since he would never want to live in a relationship where the girl feels it's a sacrifice for her to be with him. So from that moment Naruto was free to be taken by any girl
Will the author show a moment where Naruto "falls in love" with Hinata? If he can't find a proper way to do it then he'll just do it off panel, for example after a timeskip Hinata is already Naruto's wife, or something like that, that would be similar to what happened in DBZ with Bulma and Vegita. Or do you prefer an awkward way of things that happened to Goku and ChiChi? Actually that was even worse than this situation, Goku had no feelings for the girl, he didn't even know who she is, he just accepted that it's his fate. Maybe it would be awkward only for western audience because in the east arranged marriages still exist
Ya i would NEVER bring up DBZ as an example of "what a writer could do" because DBZ has some of the worst romance writing than any series. Seriously, the only reason it even exist is because toriyama wanted babies for his main characters and sex is a part of that... Its just aweful and forced and it seems that kishi is following his path

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If i compare DBZ, One Piece and Naruto then Naruto still wins when it comes to romantic stuff, something is more than nothing
I give it to one piece... better to do nothing than to do something poorly. If Your gonna do something then take the time to to do a half-way decent job of it, Otherwise is just becomes a big ugly black mark for the writing. it becomes something of an eyesore. On the otherhand, if you do not use it at all, then there is nothing to complain about thus it never really becomes a black mark.


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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
I was dissapointed from the start of part 2, when Kishi decided to make her into a weaker version of Tsunade (since Sakura is the only one who still hasn't surpassed her mentor) instead of going with the genjutsu type he made her out to be in the beginning.
I don't think the problem was that she was copying tsunade; i think the problem is that is where her growth STOPPED. as it was mentioned back then, the real significance of Sakura learning to fight like tsunade was that she was orginally a genjustu type; the implication here is that if she really master genjustu type fighting the way she master hand-to-hand combat, she would be a very skilled and well rounded fighter. Heck she could have even gone on to find her own unique way of fighting... but did she? no. She stopped growing. While Naruto was off training she could have done something useful like gone to train with kurenai or something... but she didn't. Instead of allowing Sakura to fulfill the high hopes that Part 2 created for her, Kishi just let her stagnate.

Quote:
Btw, it seemed to me that Naruto was supposed to succeed where Jiraiya failed. I had expected Naruto to end up with Sakura for no other reason than Jiraiya failing to win Tsunade. I was curious what Kishi would do with this. Would he pair Naruto with Sakura the failed character, to prove the point that Naruto will succeed where others failed, or would he cop-out with Hinata? We finally have the answer
That does indeed seem where kishi seemed to be leading everyone on. I mean it seemed clear that the current generation was meant to reflect the previous generation. Jiraiya = Obito = Naruto; Tsunade = Rin = Sakura; Orochimaru = Kakashi = Sasuke... its no coincidence that these characters seemed so much a like and shared similar relationships with one another. All of them suffered to some degree and failed in some great way that has led to regrets... In a way, it seemed like Naruto was supposed to succeed where they had failed; but when it comes to their love lives Kishi seems to have settled on Naruto copping out by just going with some random third party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
To me she started to fall into northing after the sasori fight.
eh, I'd say Cashern's more spot on with it being her false confession... See even after sasori, there was always hope that she would continue to grow, that sasori was only the beginning... she stagnated, but she did not really falter... the confession however and that whole ordeal however was the final nail in the coffin. it was so unbelievably stupid that it seemed like there was nothing Sakura could do to recover from it. She was back to square one, back to where she was before part 2... getting her to climb back up from that hard a fall would have been difficult, and kishi wasn't interested in even trying.


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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I also would like to point out that while Sasuke is targeting people you and I may view as innocent, it's no big secret that Sasuke does not view them as such. So the point is moot.
And that's part of what makes him a psychopath

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Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
How you came to this conclusion, I have no idea

If Kishi is really thinking of paring Naruto with Hinata. Then I wonder how will he resolve Naruto's feelings for Sakura. If Naruto is now suddenly madly in love with Hinata out of nowhere. This manga will hit it's rock bottom.

In a logical sense no man or woman is required to love someone just because the other party is in love with them. But seeing how this manga lacks some common sense. We'll see how it goes down.
I'm sorry Milan Kyuubi, but i think you might be in denial over what kishi is doing... you just have to accept that horrible writing DOES happen.

Though i would not call naruhina as the manga rock bottom. One bad romance subplot won't ruin a series... But combine that with a lame main villain and the fact that we still have to deal with sasuke, and then things are not looking good.


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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
...And missing my point entirely. Sakura is doing her job. What else do you want?
Giving direct support to her long time and close friend, including giving him valuable emotional support when he's been dragged down to his lowest point?
Oh wait... That job was stolen by someone else for shipping fuel...
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Old 2012-12-28, 21:41   Link #169
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
...And missing my point entirely. Sakura is doing her job. What else do you want?
This a fighting Shounen manga, not human resource development. Nobody care that she's doing a job like ninja joe #35428, I want her to be entertaining, cool and actively part of the plot. Or to be clear I would if I cared about her character which I don't for lack of those fore-mentioned qualities... So thinking about it I'm perfectly fine with her doing nothing but a job lost in the background and nothing else.
Carry on Sakura.

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Originally Posted by Luminion Lancer View Post
Well, Naruto was always savvy enough when it came to judging people (Sasuke notwithstanding). He genuinely recognizes when people are lying to him [...]
... Like when they had him checking penises for days after Gaara told him they were going to war? Or when Kabuto flipped the island turtle upside down and they told him it was an earthquake and he actually believed that?
The only time Naruto caught on a lie was when Sakura tried to seduce him and she was less credible than a naked man selling candies in a kindergarten.
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Old 2012-12-28, 21:58   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
eh, I'd say Cashern's more spot on with it being her false confession... See even after sasori, there was always hope that she would continue to grow, that sasori was only the beginning... she stagnated, but she did not really falter... the confession however and that whole ordeal however was the final nail in the coffin. it was so unbelievably stupid that it seemed like there was nothing Sakura could do to recover from it. She was back to square one, back to where she was before part 2... getting her to climb back up from that hard a fall would have been difficult, and kishi wasn't interested in even trying.
I know that fake confession (and the ensuing "battle" against Sasuke) was where she went from being my favorite character (barely above Kakashi) to bottom of the barrel. It was basically the perfect character assassination. I'd actually say she was worse off than she was before part 2, since before part 2 you still had hope she could wind up powerful like Tsunade.
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Old 2012-12-28, 22:30   Link #171
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I know that fake confession (and the ensuing "battle" against Sasuke) was where she went from being my favorite character (barely above Kakashi) to bottom of the barrel. It was basically the perfect character assassination. I'd actually say she was worse off than she was before part 2, since before part 2 you still had hope she could wind up powerful like Tsunade.
Sakura did think she has to sacrifice herself that way to save Naruto, the author made it clear. Her actions were not contradicting her character either in my opinion. Such a fake confession story element can also be found in romance stories. So Kishimoto can use that she screwed up that so badly to make some character development that she needs. But this war is not the time for Sakura, i think it will be the story arc that ends in the Sasuke vs Naruto battle that we will see Sakura more. And my guess is that by then she'll be better, having learned the lesson of her fake confession and her failed assassination attempt.


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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Ya i would NEVER bring up DBZ as an example of "what a writer could do" because DBZ has some of the worst romance writing than any series. Seriously, the only reason it even exist is because toriyama wanted babies for his main characters and sex is a part of that... Its just aweful and forced and it seems that kishi is following his path
DBZ doesn't have romance obviously, that was the point, that all these action shonen manga are not meant to be romantic shojo mangas. And keeping that in mind if we look how much romance stuff is in Naruto i think it's a lot. Also what kind of romance would you expect from girls that are raised to be hardcore warriors? Surely not the usual school girl stuff that you see in average anime. I don't see anything forced in this manga regarding romance, it's simply not in the focus of the story, it's left for the imagination.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-12-28 at 22:45.
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Old 2012-12-28, 23:56   Link #172
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I see you talk down to people, with lines along the likes of ignoring common sense, ignoring the author, and ignoring facts. How is that not being on a high horse?
Because its stating an observation; people sometimes ignore these things because of their bias.

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Also, note how you went and started trying to attack me for negatively commenting on Sasuke?
Um no, I merely stated that you didn't put things in perspective and explained why. Instead of replying to my explanation, you began rambling on about my alleged “bad temper” and “high-horse” : /

Quote:
Your counter example was really before he took up the whole "No more hatred" thing. Before that, he was just fighting to protect those he cared about. It wasn't until after Minato calmed him down that he took up the whole "no hatred" thing in addition to his prior ideals.
And here I thought he was entrusted to do something about hatred by Jiraiya. Even besides that your claim still fails considering he practically did the same thing again during this chapter and was ready to give in.
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Old 2012-12-29, 01:05   Link #173
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
... Like when they had him checking penises for days after Gaara told him they were going to war? Or when Kabuto flipped the island turtle upside down and they told him it was an earthquake and he actually believed that?
The only time Naruto caught on a lie was when Sakura tried to seduce him and she was less credible than a naked man selling candies in a kindergarten.
Right...I forgot I was talking about the idiot-hero of this story. I guess it is a matter of the situation. If it needs to be funny, then Naruto falls for the dumbest of lies. When it needs to be serious, he is damn perceptive.
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Old 2012-12-29, 01:33   Link #174
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Oh wow, it looks like Hinata may get her wish! I would have never seen this coming. Though I'm kinda afraid that she might have raised her death flag.
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Old 2012-12-29, 02:09   Link #175
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everyone busy looking up for possible relationship...

i bet the shika plan will be a failure..by guessing the red sky on the cover..that means the tsukuyomi will be activated.

i wonder where did sasuke and orochi went..maybe to reveal more uchiha secret to defeat obito and madara? maybe sasuke will get mad at madara real intention...and allied with the white forces?

ah just a random guess.
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Old 2012-12-29, 03:30   Link #176
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Wow Sakura, i don't even need to try anymore to bring you unbiased hate.

Hows Hinata doing? I thought her death flag already passed, wait is she even still alive?
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Old 2012-12-29, 03:51   Link #177
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Quick question:

What did Madara mean by Obito being very similar to his old self while he was giving his speech to Naruto?
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Old 2012-12-29, 06:47   Link #178
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^Probably just means that he was angry and bitter at the world. Now he's a demi-god so he doesn't really give a crap

Btw, I hope Kishi hasn't forgotten that Obito is also Sasuke's primary target for revenge. Hopefully Obito wont die to some secondary character. Sasuke's revenge is doomed to fail by shounen logic, but at least let him have some of it.
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Old 2012-12-29, 07:06   Link #179
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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Btw, I hope Kishi hasn't forgotten that Obito is also Sasuke's primary target for revenge. Hopefully Obito wont die to some secondary character. Sasuke's revenge is doomed to fail by shounen logic, but at least let him have some of it.
i did thought Sasuke will be the one killing Obito, but i am not sure now, because Obito is going to die either way,
so may be we should get some Sasuke vs Madara(alive)
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Old 2012-12-29, 07:28   Link #180
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Madara vs anyone other than Jubbi, is utter pwnage. Unless Hashirama comes back there's very little stopping or rather slowing Madara.
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