AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-12-29, 08:01   Link #181
mystogan
The Lost Lamb
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: in Darkness
^and why do you think that only Hashirama is the only equal to Madara,i admit Madara is a godlike historical figure who has already kicked the asses of the 5 kages as he is an edo tensei zombie who keeps respawning ,but once he is alive(meaning obito dies), it is possible to kill him, we all know someone is going to stop mostly likely Naruto, he is already a kage level shinobi and so is Sasuke

i am hoping there is Sasuke's involment in killing Madara(i am not saying he becomes good and joins the alliance), as Madara is also an ugly spot on the name of Uchiha and there is less chance of Sasuke killing Obito even though Obito is his target,
__________________
mystogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 09:10   Link #182
TimeMask
Phantom Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
i did thought Sasuke will be the one killing Obito, but i am not sure now, because Obito is going to die either way,
so may be we should get some Sasuke vs Madara(alive)
Sasuke said to Itachi he would kill the one who helped him do the Uchiha Massacre (Obito). Kishimoto could remember this and have Sasuke meet Madara and maybe later kill Obito.

It seems like Sasuke will be the last living Uchiha unless Obito gets stuck in izanami and has to change his ways but Itachi is no longer around.

Obito saw Naruto was doubting himself as he reached out for Obito's hand so it may be harder for Naruto to change Obito. Maybe Kakashi will reveal something about Rin which could help Naruto change Obito to be good.

Last edited by TimeMask; 2012-12-30 at 08:06.
TimeMask is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 10:02   Link #183
Ero-Senn1n
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Sasuke's revenge is doomed to fail by shounen logic, but at least let him have some of it.
He already got the most of it by killing Danzou. A sane person would have stopped there, since the people of konoha have nothing to do with it. But we see how insane Sasuke was: he attacked KillerBee who had nothing to do with konoha because a man who was Itachi's partner in killing his clan said that he should do so. So he made himself an enemy not only of konoha but the entire world for a man who not only participated actively in killing his clan but also he's probably the reason for all that happened. When Sasuke's insanity stops he will realize all this. He's already on a good way since he regained his rational thinking after he met Itachi.
Ero-Senn1n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 10:09   Link #184
Gundamx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Was that real Naruto hand?_?
Some people say that it was Hinata hand...
Gundamx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 10:41   Link #185
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Maybe having Kakashi actually do something? You know, like it seemed he was going to do to the Seven Swordsmen before it all got brushed under the rug?
i dont have a problem with this being called the year of kakashi. this battle has been going on for a while now and kakashi has actually done quite a lot. so much in fact that many people have had a problem with it because it has gone far beyond what we all thought his limitations should be with kamui and just chakra in general even before the kyuubi replenished his chakra. i never expected the year of kakashi to mean that we were getting another gaiden or something. there will also be another flashback to explain some more things about kakashi and obito and of course kakashi will get plenty of screentime when obito dies so it'll carry over a bit into 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
Quick question:

What did Madara mean by Obito being very similar to his old self while he was giving his speech to Naruto?
i took it to mean how obito was trying to psychologically cripple his opponent. madara was doing the same thing vs the kages. basically it's not just an attitude that beats the opponent physically but also breaks them down mentally
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 14:23   Link #186
janipani
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Europe
I would had liked, if either of these scenarios would have happened:

1. Sakura would have realized that Sasuke is just a silly childhood crush that was way off and then she could have build feeling for Naruto in satisfying way. But Kishi seems to hate this kinda approach which is actually even small way realistic IRL.

2. Naruto would have realized that Sakura is silly bitch stalled on stupid childhood crush and just grew up of her and then developed a relationhip with e. g. Hinata or someone else in satisfying way.

But what happened made everyone really hate Sakura, even though some people still tends to hope Naruto ends up with that delusional idiot.

Hinata is not at all better when it's written like this. Who would marry someone just because they can't have anyone they would actually have feelings for.

Yeah.. and I forgot 3. which still can happen, Naruto takes nobody during this manga and says "no" to Hinata.
__________________
The man of million typos
The master of confusing sentence structure


-Best anime was made in 80s-
janipani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 14:28   Link #187
Slayerx
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
DBZ doesn't have romance obviously, that was the point, that all these action shonen manga are not meant to be romantic shojo mangas. And keeping that in mind if we look how much romance stuff is in Naruto i think it's a lot. Also what kind of romance would you expect from girls that are raised to be hardcore warriors? Surely not the usual school girl stuff that you see in average anime. I don't see anything forced in this manga regarding romance, it's simply not in the focus of the story, it's left for the imagination.
First off, just because romance is not the focus of the series is NOT an excuse for such sloppy writing. Romance does not need to be the focused in order to do a decent job of it. Plenty of series do not have romance as a focus but can still make it an effective subplot or atleast do a decent enough job of it so that it doesn't drag the series down.

Heck these things don't even have to be that complicated as even subtle nods can serve well if executed right. For instance, just showing Naruto and Hinata hanging around each other during those moments of downtime talking about nothing would at the very least have shown a growing friendship which can be the set up for romance furthar down the line; you can find ways to imply that they have been getting closer off screen. In a more robust manner, hinata could have simply given a bigger role in the story thus giving more opportunities for her and Naruto to develop; For instance, adding her to the mission where they go after the akatsuki spy would have allowed her to play a similar role as sakura did when Naruto was consumed by the 4 tails. There are just so many way Kishi could have developed their relationship that would not have taken a great deal of extra effort or been distracting to the series. When it comes down to it, Naruhina does feel forced because we jump from nothing to something signficant; kishi couldn't be bothered to establish and develop their friendship and yet he pushes them into a relationship through the most contrived of ways even to the detriment of his over characters.



Second of all, Kishi himself started the romance subplot back at the very beginning of the series. One of the most prominent aspects of Naruto's team was the love triangle between them; and that's not counting the secondary characters. Heck, Sakura's character could have practically been defined as the "usual school girl" in a ninja setting; kakashi himself said that girl's her age were more concerned with boyfriends than being ninjas . Can't just start something and then half-ass it

Its not just leaving it to fans imagination, its being downright sloppy. He wants to have these relationships, but he doesn't actually want to put energy into developing them; that's what makes them feel forced.
__________________
Slayerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 14:57   Link #188
janipani
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Europe
^ Or he thinks that forced relationships are something he wants to presents us. Actually I think his writing is not off or bad because he is not able do it well, but because wants to write it this way.
__________________
The man of million typos
The master of confusing sentence structure


-Best anime was made in 80s-
janipani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 15:05   Link #189
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
I was dissapointed from the start of part 2, when Kishi decided to make her into a weaker version of Tsunade (since Sakura is the only one who still hasn't surpassed her mentor) instead of going with the genjutsu type he made her out to be in the beginning.
So you're upset that Sakura isn't a genius like Sasuke or Naruto?

Quote:
To begin with, superstrength is probably the most unimaginative ability, and she doesn't even have any of Tsunade's special jutsu that make her stand out. It looks like Kishi really didn't care at all. If she just had to be a healer, she still could have been a genjutsu healer.
My opinion is that superstrength was a good technique for a field medic. It doesn't seem to consume much chakra, which lets Sakura save it for medical ninjutsu and it lets her finish the enemy quickly. She isn't even supposed to fight in the first place anyway.

Quote:
But, as it turned out, genjutsu is overpowered against anyone who doesn't have a sharingan or a tailed beast in them. That would've made Sakura a little bit too useful for Kishi's liking. Of all the things he could've done with her he went with superstrength, the one thing that was guaranteed to be obsolete within an arc or two.
Funny, my impression was that normal genjutsu was impractical for fighting, unless you have a partner to cover you.

Stuff like Sharingan genjutsu, or sound based genjutsu seem to be way more useful. As a medical ninja, doing extensive genjutsu training would be a waste for her right now.
__________________




Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.
Endscape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 15:18   Link #190
sayde
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
While it pains me to say this, its not really as if they're in a romantic relationship just yet. While many of us are assuming that's probably where Kishi is implying their relationship will be headed in the future, I wouldn't say that's where it's at currently. Yes, Hinata "loves" Naruto. That's been established from the very beginning. But at this point, I'm not entirely convinced those romantic feelings are mutual. All I would safely assume is that Naruto has officially come to acknowledge her as another very close friend who would gladly lay down her life for him. At the very least, I hope we can all agree that Kishi's provided enough framework for Naruto to plausibly feel that way about her. I mean she only had to play the meat shield role twice.

Assuming the two are still alive after the war, its safe to say, she'll no longer be mitigated in Naruto's mind as the shy but friendly acquaintance. With Hinata growing more of a backbone in her interactions with Naruto and with Naruto finally acknowledging her as something more than an acquaintance, we can definitely see how the two might actually start interacting more on a regular basis off-panel.

Case in point, I think its wrong to a degree to fault Kishi as if he forced a NaruHina romantic relationship on us. At most, Hinata might've just been elevated to the same level of friendship and importance as Naruto's team 7 comrades. So I perceive these current chain of events to be Kishi's way of finally laying down a plausible, firm, foundation for an eventual *mutual* romantic relationship to be built upon (which seems to be exactly what you rather have seen from the get-go Slayerx). Granted, Kishi has not been very efficient at this, but hey--I guess its better late then never.

Last edited by sayde; 2012-12-29 at 15:42.
sayde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-29, 17:20   Link #191
Ero-Senn1n
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Its not just leaving it to fans imagination, its being downright sloppy. He wants to have these relationships, but he doesn't actually want to put energy into developing them; that's what makes them feel forced.
Reading your post it seems that this comes down to individual taste after all. So i can understand what you mean by "sloppy" but for me most of the time it's just ok. Of course there were a few moments when it didn't make much sense, the one i remember to be the most broken part is when Naruto has absolutely no reaction to Hinata's confession after he became the "hero" of konoha. That didn't make sense at all. The author could have added something like Naruto was afraid to talk to Hinata because he didn't know what to say. That was very awkward. The Sakura-Sasuke relationship was ok, considering what a psycho Sasuke has become there was nothing more to do for Kishimoto. I mean if Sakura trying to kill Sasuke and then at the last moment being unable to do it, then all the crying and agony she had before that is not good enough for you then i don't know what is. I think the Naruto-Sakura relationship has been developed enough, it was made clear how she deeply respects him but there's clearly no love. What Naruto feels towards her and how he doesn't do anything was made clear by a plot device called Sai. I think the introduction of Sai was a great idea, since as he discovered what human feelings are he also exposed to the readers and narrated the relationship between Naruto and Sakura.

Of course when it comes to love interests the author goes to the extremes as usual, by that i mean that the characters just can't get over the fact that their love interest either doesn't love them back or they are killed. It's completely unrealistic that people like Jiraiya, Tsunade, Obito, etc. are sticking to someone who they loved at age of 12 and cannot move on with their life. If this was common the ninja world would be extinct within 2 or 3 generations considering at what high rate they die Well maybe that's why there are no Senju any more
Ero-Senn1n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 07:37   Link #192
Casshern
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
So you're upset that Sakura isn't a genius like Sasuke or Naruto?



My opinion is that superstrength was a good technique for a field medic. It doesn't seem to consume much chakra, which lets Sakura save it for medical ninjutsu and it lets her finish the enemy quickly. She isn't even supposed to fight in the first place anyway.



Funny, my impression was that normal genjutsu was impractical for fighting, unless you have a partner to cover you.

Stuff like Sharingan genjutsu, or sound based genjutsu seem to be way more useful. As a medical ninja, doing extensive genjutsu training would be a waste for her right now.
Don't worry, I'm not upset No, it's not a big deal that she's still weaker than her teacher (it was just a note btw). But it's kind of a big deal that she doesn't have any techniques of her own by now, and it's kinda sad that she can only hover her hands over someone or demolish scenery at this point. It makes kage bunshin look interesting and original.

I think that in a fighting shounen everyone should fight. Hinata is weak as hell and supposedly the medic of her team but she still fights and is arguably less boring than Sakura.

As you said, Sakura is a medic. Most of the time she will be behind her team-mates. Genjutsu would allow her to provide support from a distance instead of putting herself at risk. She could've had superstrength as well as genjutsu. It wouldn't be a waste for her, it would only be a waste for those of us who don't care any more.

Finally, compare Sakura to another female ninja, also from a normal family with no bloodline limits, no passed-down techniques or special chakra, who was also trained by one of the sannin for approximately the same amount of time as Sakura. Now remember how far Konan managed to push Obito (even to use Izanagi) and imagine how Sakura would fair against him. Konan would have probably defeated Tsunade if they fought.
Casshern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 10:48   Link #193
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
When it comes down to it, Naruhina does feel forced because we jump from nothing to something signficant; kishi couldn't be bothered to establish and develop their friendship and yet he pushes them into a relationship through the most contrived of ways even to the detriment of his over characters.
i think you're jumping the gun here. is what happened really 'significant' or a 'jump' in terms of them having a relationship? all they are doing is smiling and holding hands which can be explained as exactly what you wanted to see 'their friendship being developed'. it's not like they kissed or naruto said he loved her back. it's not a relationship yet. kishi could have dropped more in about them getting closer, but thats not naruto's character to do that. hes always oblivious until things are literally shoved in his face. in this case it took neji's dying words and another close call on the battlefield for him to feel a closeness with hinata. he's simply not a romantic type or a close friend type either. naruto's always been an oblivious loner with a lot of acquaintances. he never really developed his social skills growing up alone
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 16:19   Link #194
Midnight Commander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Command center, the ship's bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
For instance, just showing Naruto and Hinata hanging around each other during those moments of downtime talking about nothing would at the very least have shown a growing friendship which can be the set up for romance furthar down the line; you can find ways to imply that they have been getting closer off screen.
You know, I'd say the manga would do well to have more dialogue in general. The last dozen chapters have felt shorter than usual to me, and I feel its partly because of a relatively low amount of dialogue; not that this manga had lots of dialogue to begin with. The current fight will of course decrease dialogue, but even during Obito's backstory, the chapters just seemed so short; maybe its just me.

What you state here is one great way to do so, but perhaps the extra effort isn't worth it when they're already quite successful as it is. Admittedly though, I have no idea how the manga industry works. I can remember reading American titles such as X-Men, Punisher and Spiderman back in the days... The pages were pretty full of dialogue; especially in comparison to this manga. ...But maybe the American titles aren't like that anymore, since that was a while ago.
Midnight Commander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 16:20   Link #195
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Don't worry, I'm not upset No, it's not a big deal that she's still weaker than her teacher (it was just a note btw). But it's kind of a big deal that she doesn't have any techniques of her own by now, and it's kinda sad that she can only hover her hands over someone or demolish scenery at this point. It makes kage bunshin look interesting and original.
Sakura spent 2 years learning medical ninjutsu, and got very good at it, something that must have taken up all her time. She probably had no time to learn anything else, especially considering that she shouldn't be fighting at all in her chosen profession.

Quote:
I think that in a fighting shounen everyone should fight. Hinata is weak as hell and supposedly the medic of her team but she still fights and is arguably less boring than Sakura.
So it's just your own opinion then. In any case, it's impossible for everyone, even in a fighting shounen to fight. Medic and support characters are important too.

BTW, Hinata isn't a medic, she's a scout and tracker in a team of scouts and teackers.

Quote:
As you said, Sakura is a medic. Most of the time she will be behind her team-mates. Genjutsu would allow her to provide support from a distance instead of putting herself at risk. She could've had superstrength as well as genjutsu. It wouldn't be a waste for her, it would only be a waste for those of us who don't care any more.
Did you read what I posted? Sakura is a medic, therefore she needs to save her chakra for medical ninjutsu, using it on genjutsu would be a waste. That's why superstrength works for her: she can save her chakra for medical ninjutsu and still fight. She can also end fights fast so she can get back to her job.

As I said earlier Sakura has only been learning medical ninjutsu for 2 years and has already progressed to an amazing level, something that must have taken up all her time. How much stuff do you want her to learn anyway?

Quote:
Finally, compare Sakura to another female ninja, also from a normal family with no bloodline limits, no passed-down techniques or special chakra, who was also trained by one of the sannin for approximately the same amount of time as Sakura. Now remember how far Konan managed to push Obito (even to use Izanagi) and imagine how Sakura would fair against him.
This is one of the worst comparisons I've ever heard. First, Konan has years more experience than Sakura does. As for the fight with Obito, she had years of observations, data and simulations, prep time, terrain advantage, plus the resources of an entire ninja village. I'm sure Sakura could have done just as well as Konan if she had those things.

Quote:
Konan would have probably defeated Tsunade if they fought
Seriously? You think the same Konan that couldn't do anything against Jiraiya could beat Tsunade?
__________________




Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.
Endscape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 20:22   Link #196
Casshern
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Were not talking about a real human being, there's no need to be so charitable with expressions like "probably didn't have time". Kishi could've crammed as many or as few techniques he wanted in those 3 years and there would be no reason to question it. As an example, Sasuke learned a shed-load, Naruto learned none. Simple fact of the matter is that he doesn't want to do anything with her which is why she came to be irrelevant.

Scout, healer, doesn't matter... they're all ninjas. Ninjas fight. Sakura is a ninja too, shes not a white mage. Tsunade isn't sitting safely in the back waiting for someone to carry the injured kage over to her.

Tsunade wouldn't be able to do anything against Jiraiya either. She lost to a pre-timeskip Kabuto. Konan would beat Tsunade, easily. As for Sakura vs Obito, forget that. It was a bad example. Not that it's wrong; just that it's unfair on Sakura. Even with all of Konan's knowledge and time to prepare, even with an extra 100 years to prepare, Sakura would never be able to lay a scratch on Obito with the techniques she currently has. Just compare what Sakura's techniques do and what Obito's techniques do.

Anyway, taking on a boss character isn't what I expected from Sakura at the start of part 2. I just thought she'd have a more protagonistic role than Tenten, and she doesn't.

Last edited by Casshern; 2012-12-30 at 20:32.
Casshern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 20:41   Link #197
GDB
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Anyway, taking on a boss character isn't what I expected from Sakura at the start of part 2. I just thought she'd have a more protagonistic role than Tenten, and she doesn't.
Sure she does. She gets reaction shot panels to herself, rather than having to share them with two or three other characters!
GDB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-30, 21:22   Link #198
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Were not talking about a real human being, there's no need to be so charitable with expressions like "probably didn't have time". Kishi could've crammed as many or as few techniques he wanted in those 3 years and there would be no reason to question it. As an example, Sasuke learned a shed-load, Naruto learned none. Simple fact of the matter is that he doesn't want to do anything with her which is why she came to be irrelevant.
Of course Sasuke learned a lot, he has the Sharingan. As for Kishi letting Sakura learn a ton of stuff, he could, but that would be bad writing.

Quote:
Scout, healer, doesn't matter... they're all ninjas. Ninjas fight. Sakura is a ninja too, shes not a white mage. Tsunade isn't sitting safely in the back waiting for someone to carry the injured kage over to her.
Obviously she has to fight sometimes, but as a field medic, she has to fight in a way that would best let her do her main job.

Quote:
Tsunade wouldn't be able to do anything against Jiraiya either. She lost to a pre-timeskip Kabuto. Konan would beat Tsunade, easily.
The Kabuto thing is a horrible example, since she would have won if not for her hemophobia. And if you really think Konan can beat Tsunade, feel free to delude yourself.

Quote:
As for Sakura vs Obito, forget that. It was a bad example. Not that it's wrong; just that it's unfair on Sakura. Even with all of Konan's knowledge and time to prepare, even with an extra 100 years to prepare, Sakura would never be able to lay a scratch on Obito with the techniques she currently has. Just compare what Sakura's techniques do and what Obito's techniques do.
I disagree.

Quote:
Anyway, taking on a boss character isn't what I expected from Sakura at the start of part 2. I just thought she'd have a more protagonistic role than Tenten, and she doesn't.
Are you serious? Sakura obviously has a bigger role than Tenten.
__________________




Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.
Endscape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-31, 08:16   Link #199
Kyero Fox
Tastes Cloudy
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Snake Way
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to Kyero Fox
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post

The Kabuto thing is a horrible example, since she would have won if not for her hemophobia. And if you really think Konan can beat Tsunade, feel free to delude yourself.
I don't know, No way in hell she could survive that ocean of bombs.
__________________
Kyero Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-31, 10:40   Link #200
sayde
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Seriously? You think the same Konan that couldn't do anything against Jiraiya could beat Tsunade?
--As if to imply Tsunade was as capable and powerful as Jiraiya. Honestly, we'll never know for sure. The 3 legendary Sanin may have been regarded in equal status in terms of their legend, but that doesn't mean all 3 were equal in terms of combat prowess and capabilities. Granted Orochimaru and Jiraiya have had opportunities to show off a wider variation of techniques. But regardless, she hasn't been shown to specialize in long range combat and plenty of other things for that matter. If she's going to hurt you, odds are she'll have to actually get in close and connect with one of her techniques. And even then, it wouldn't guarantee success against that Dance of the Shikigami jutsu. Konan can also be an exceptional long range fighter. And she did well enough to push Obito into giving up his eye and a limb. I'm not sure Tsunade would be guaranteed the same results or better. Her biggest strength seems to lie in her forbidden techniques that make her incredibly resilient to injury. So she's tough to kill.

It would be a fun match.

Last edited by sayde; 2012-12-31 at 10:59.
sayde is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly spoiler discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.