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Old 2012-12-28, 14:44   Link #521
NoirX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
The notion locked into place BECAUSE most of the blank rep ones were ruder than average posters, otherwise I doubt people would have that issue. When I first came here many years ago, I didn't know what the hell that black box meant at first. But the rule worked, that's why people use it. You'll obviously start unprejudiced but I've seen my share of retards with disabled rep to not bother much with them. If I read something that's ridiculous and the person has disabled rep, I know not to bother with them. The opposite goes (excluding mods and admins) for the high rep members, you know you're at least talking to decent people.

Normally, you don't use negrep for simply disagreeing, but I'm not sure how the system ended up being used by most. I can say though that the more recent negreps I got were, in hindsight, more justified than not, so I take it the system was working as intended.
I get your point, but as I'm wondering before what about those who's saying a good and quality post but disabled their rep? Do you think they not worth bothering aswell? And I also have a share of the retards, it's just that I don't really care at all, and because of that I keep posting anyway even if the retards hate me and keeps giving me bad reps. What I'm trying to say is that people don't really need to rely on rep system that much, use your own judgement to judge if other users are worthy or not instead of just simply seeing their rep amount(don't judge the book by it's cover).
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:46   Link #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
On private messages... I'm honestly amazed that people keep bringing this up, due to a clear and major weakness in the PM system.

PM boxes are capped at 100 total. Many people here (myself included) have a hard enough time keeping our PM boxes freed up as it is. It's not at all uncommon for me to PM someone and get the message that this user's PM box is full and hence I can't send a PM to that individual.

The only way PMs could even begin to be seriously considered as a substitution for posrep messages is if the PM boxes were increased in size from 100 to 150.


VMs, similarly, are already pretty heavily used by people. Do we really want to add to that clutter by also using VMs as a substitute for old posreps?


The PM/VM/posrep division was a very good one, I think. Each method of contacting another user had its particular uses, and distinct pros and cons. And by having these three different methods, you cut down on the clutter within each of them.
Enlarging the PM box is something that has to be done someday, and it has been given consideration. It's 2012 anyways, the space currently is very 2001. Check out this thread for example.

It needs to be like 500 or some shit.

Quote:
I still have yet to see anybody put forward a concrete example of how cliques were causing real problems here on Anime Suki. So I'm inclined to think that the clique problem is getting overblown.
Maybe. But this is not from my own anecdote; it seems to be the mod team feels that way over the data they have that we don't.

Quote:
Are all opinions of equal value? Or are some opinions better thought out, better considered, and/or better presented than others?
In the context of voting, yes all opinions are equal because everyone is worth one vote. This system knows not your intent, just the + and - you pressed.

But this is exactly why I don't like using a democracy to decide voting on a single post. Hell, let me flip the table around. If we go by +/- system, then when you read a good post and vote it up, and then some angry jackass reads the first sentence and votes it down, it'd count for the same thing. Is that even right? Hell, that's one of the few things that the rep system actually gets right. Though maybe it shouldn't to that degree. I do think for the sake of entertainment, that more points should give more power, but it shouldn't be so big. Say 2:1 ratio at best, instead of 10;1 like it was.

Quote:
Rep points themselves weren't a particularly useful tool for generating useful discussion. But I think that the comments that accompanied them were.

Positive reinforcement, and words of support, can prove encouraging at times.

Now, some people have suggested that PMs and VMs should be fine in accomplishing that, but there are flaws here.
It's a very indirect effect. It helps boosts people's egos via positive reinforcement which may help them post better but it's just not really the main factor to me. But here's the difference here between me and many others in this thread : I don't think ego boosting among friends is a bad thing. Why shouldn't people get to feel good over something so little? It just comes down to people abusing it.

But still, I think even if people reinforce positive thinking, that it's still biased towards certain avenues of posting style, namely a more "clean" and positivist approach. It's just really hard to constantly express critical opinion over a long period of time and be widely approved of. It's possible yes, but it's an uphill struggle. To make it clearer, it can reach the point where we all agree on something and causes stagnation. Honestly, if you read my posts and think "Man, Archon is full of shit", then it's actually a good sign that we can increase the chances of meaningful discussion.

And finally it's just really hard to separate disagreeing with someone and not liking the way one argues. At least for me, and quite a few people that were honest enough to me to admit that. Ideally a debate is not to convince the other side that they are wrong but to open the opinions to everyone else. But honestly, do you think most people are capable of this mindset?
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Old 2012-12-28, 14:48   Link #523
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Triple R I get what you are saying about limitations with PM and I think if feasible an increase in PM size would definitely be nice.

But remember reps had drawbacks to. A lot of times I wanted to positive rep the same person but couldn't because you need to rep 10 different people before giving rep to the same person again.
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Old 2012-12-28, 15:13   Link #524
janipani
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Yeah.. this was great. I'm individual of strong opinions and that sometimes makes me annoying, but I feel that there is always need for different aspect of view, so now I don't have be upset about people giving bad reps for me simply because they don't like what I am saying.
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Old 2012-12-28, 15:13   Link #525
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@Triple_R Shipping wars and cliques are my area of expertise. Do you want my version or the mod version?

-The mod version is that shipping wars end up in flames and trolls, and tend to spread out all over the place, so just killing them outright in all threads is easier and efficient. Of course, that didn't use to be so. There were pretty successful and persistent shipping wars going around (especially when you have communities within communities pop up), but those had mostly just died out by the time they decided against all forms of active campaigning, in all and any threads and boards. It made things easier to manage and supervise. Fairly recently, Social Groups appeared. Pretty much the same thing as before, although apparently it's easier to contain the flames.

As far as the rep goes, Social Groups do give you the resources to guide reputation even now however you like, but that was always against the rules anyway. Note, however, that when community leaders generally expressed distaste against a poster, you could be sure he'd be stamped for negrepping by the group, as long as no rules were actively broken. Enemy groups don't need more reason to go against each other anyway.

Clique repping was just a lesser symptom of group politics. I'm not sure how exaggerated the reports are but some form of underground group repping WAS there. For example, you can be fairly sure that the worst members of each group would end up getting negreps primarily from the opposite group and the group members would posrep each other often. Thing is, these worst posters from any group were indeed bad posters and ended up getting banned, so the negrep wasn't really unjustified. I seriously doubt that you have even stuff like that now.

-My version is, of course, more romantic.
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Old 2012-12-29, 04:00   Link #526
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Thing is, coalitions working together to rep themselves are wasting their own time anyway. So why bother stopping them trying to get pips?

Also, most communication between such coalitions is on the boards anyway, so it's possible to use a bot to sniff out such bad behaviour and issue warnings.

The rep system could be fixed by adding some kind of decay, so that farming it was difficult.

You could prevent the passive aggressive reps more easily by allowing you to flag rep messages the way you can flag posts, so that moderators can take swift action.

I feel like getting rid of rep completely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I felt more connected with the forum due to getting positive reps, as it showed to me in concrete ways that people enjoyed reading my posts. Without that kind of positive feedback I don't feel like I'll be quite as motivated to go to the same amount of effort.

The + reps created a kind of community spirit.
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Old 2012-12-29, 11:23   Link #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Thing is, coalitions working together to rep themselves are wasting their own time anyway. So why bother stopping them trying to get pips?
because their circlejerking ruins the debating climate for everyone else and such behavior shouldn't be encouraged

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Also, most communication between such coalitions is on the boards anyway, so it's possible to use a bot to sniff out such bad behaviour and issue warnings.
you write such a bot then
(have fun with that, it's vastly more complicated than you seem to think)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The rep system could be fixed by adding some kind of decay, so that farming it was difficult.
except that would hit less active posters harder and "rep farmers" less
also, you go implement that if you want it

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
You could prevent the passive aggressive reps more easily by allowing you to flag rep messages the way you can flag posts, so that moderators can take swift action.
this was possible with the old system already
(I should know; I've been infracted for rep trolling)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I feel like getting rid of rep completely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I felt more connected with the forum due to getting positive reps, as it showed to me in concrete ways that people enjoyed reading my posts. Without that kind of positive feedback I don't feel like I'll be quite as motivated to go to the same amount of effort.
don't let the door hit you on your way out, brah
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Old 2012-12-29, 11:49   Link #528
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
because their circlejerking ruins the debating climate for everyone else and such behavior shouldn't be encouraged


you write such a bot then
(have fun with that, it's vastly more complicated than you seem to think)


except that would hit less active posters harder and "rep farmers" less
also, you go implement that if you want it


this was possible with the old system already
(I should know; I've been infracted for rep trolling)


don't let the door hit you on your way out, brah
A perfect example of a negrep-invoking post. Now there's no way to tell people that their post is crossing certain boundaries, other than actually telling them straight up in a PM (but seriously, why bother that much), but in any other thread, the post I just made would have been off-topic. Good job illustrating the point though, now I'm not sure if the above deserves a cookie instead after all. My comment also just brought hard feelings and possible enmity inside a thread instead of keeping it in the reputation tab.

That's probably the only helpful use of negrep, keeping the threads on topic instead of degrading to pure arguments about discussion etiquette.
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Old 2012-12-29, 13:20   Link #529
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Quote:
Now there's no way to tell people that their post is crossing certain boundaries
Sure there is. Do you not like the content? Report it. If we feel it breaks the rules, we take care of it.

Quote:
That's probably the only helpful use of negrep, keeping the threads on topic instead of degrading to pure arguments about discussion etiquette.
Neg rep has never had this effect, and in many cases has done the exact opposite.
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Old 2012-12-29, 13:28   Link #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Sure there is. Do you not like the content? Report it. If we feel it breaks the rules, we take care of it.



Neg rep has never had this effect, and in many cases has done the exact opposite.
I think you might be missing npal's point. A comment made via negrep is a comment that typically doesn't show up on the public threads... where it might have shown up if the negrep outlet wasn't there.

It's not that giving out a negrep steers discussion back on track, it's that having the negrep outlet helps to keep purely ad hominem arguments off the threads so those threads are less likely to go off track in the first place.
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Old 2012-12-29, 13:35   Link #531
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Sure there is. Do you not like the content? Report it. If we feel it breaks the rules, we take care of it.
You do realize that not every post that warrants a negative rep breaks the rules unless you stretch them to hell, right?
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Old 2012-12-29, 13:53   Link #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think you might be missing npal's point. A comment made via negrep is a comment that typically doesn't show up on the public threads... where it might have shown up if the negrep outlet wasn't there.

It's not that giving out a negrep steers discussion back on track, it's that having the negrep outlet helps to keep purely ad hominem arguments off the threads so those threads are less likely to go off track in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
You do realize that not every post that warrants a negative rep breaks the rules unless you stretch them to hell, right?
And yet people have advocated many times for the removal of neg rep.

In any case, either people will learn to keep their stupidity to themselves, or face the consequences of no longer being able to hide behind complete anonymity.
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Old 2012-12-29, 15:10   Link #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
And yet people have advocated many times for the removal of neg rep.

In any case, either people will learn to keep their stupidity to themselves, or face the consequences of no longer being able to hide behind complete anonymity.
I'm quite sure that at least the former won't happen. Just that maybe people will be aggressive more openly to others which is the latter.
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Old 2012-12-30, 00:24   Link #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Disabling the rep seems fishy. The general consensus here was that disabled rep was, more often than not, a negative, as someone else already mentioned. People's predisposition is a valuable tool in an argument. For me and many others, a blank rep was essentially red, so sometimes, I didn't even care to argue back.
So, you saw the rep bar first, then the post?
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Old 2012-12-30, 00:52   Link #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
A perfect example of a negrep-invoking post. Now there's no way to tell people that their post is crossing certain boundaries, other than actually telling them straight up in a PM (but seriously, why bother that much), but in any other thread, the post I just made would have been off-topic. Good job illustrating the point though, now I'm not sure if the above deserves a cookie instead after all. My comment also just brought hard feelings and possible enmity inside a thread instead of keeping it in the reputation tab.
Well, there's also something called self control. Mind you, I have none.

But let's be serious, if you can't be bothered to click a few more buttons for a PM, your thoughts don't have much value. Then again, if someone is being a dick, I doubt they'd care anyways, so hit report or make their post looks silly.

You'll have to learn to create a decent argument while subtly insulting them slightly below the threshold for moderation but just enough to trigger them to rage post at you and get mod'd. I know it takes effort, but hey, nobody said life was easy.
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Old 2012-12-30, 01:34   Link #536
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I agree with this change, the neg reps and comments pissed me off especially wen all i was doing was stating my opinion, i would of liked to see the users name being shown though for neg repping someone, i bet they wouldnt of done it then
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Old 2012-12-30, 02:17   Link #537
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All the cool kids had rep disabled anyways.
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Old 2012-12-30, 05:20   Link #538
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Then again, if someone is being a dick, I doubt they'd care anyways, so hit report or make their post looks silly.
My point exactly. Why waste more energy than needed when many simply won't even care than much. Reputation however will end up piling up. They themselves won't care but the rest will at least be mindful of concentrated negative reputation. It can also eventually work as negative reinforcement, a thing a PM won't do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
You'll have to learn to create a decent argument while subtly insulting them slightly below the threshold for moderation but just enough to trigger them to rage post at you and get mod'd. I know it takes effort, but hey, nobody said life was easy.
And again, why should I waste any more energy on a lost cause? I don't care about provoking people to get themselves banned, unless you're talking about heated shipping arguments, which was one of the points of the game anyway. Negrep provided an easy and efficient way to make your point and get on with it. I don't care that rep in general is gone but it wasn't all that bad and useless as people try to make it look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So, you saw the rep bar first, then the post?
Obviously. A rep bar is pretty easy to spot, a wall of text takes time to read, so perception works in favor of spotting the rep bar first.
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Old 2012-12-30, 06:25   Link #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
My point exactly. Why waste more energy than needed when many simply won't even care than much. Reputation however will end up piling up. They themselves won't care but the rest will at least be mindful of concentrated negative reputation. It can also eventually work as negative reinforcement, a thing a PM won't do.
There's a reason why the popular notion of dealing with trolls is to ignore them. It's not farfetched to say that some people seek attention and are inviting this to happen. If anything, I'd argue that negging them just encourages that kind of behavior.

And while it's true that we could be mindful of their reputation, that crappy posts generally speak for themselves.

Quote:
And again, why should I waste any more energy on a lost cause? I don't care about provoking people to get themselves banned, unless you're talking about heated shipping arguments, which was one of the points of the game anyway. Negrep provided an easy and efficient way to make your point and get on with it. I don't care that rep in general is gone but it wasn't all that bad and useless as people try to make it look.
Why should you spend any energy on a lost cause to begin with? Justice? Honor? Spite? There is no legitimate reason that isn't petty and adds fire to the fuel.

What you call easy and efficient, I call lazy. And I did use it when I felt too lazy to come up with anything thoughtful. It was used when one just didn't want to waste energy and that's why I said these kind of things are petty and worthless anyways. It can be fun, but that's about it. I mean I don't think the mods would take me seriously if I'm like "Don't take away my ability to easily insult lots of people anonymously,because I don't want to put the effort into posting, despite that being the very point of a forum"
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Old 2012-12-30, 10:13   Link #540
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
There's a reason why the popular notion of dealing with trolls is to ignore them. It's not farfetched to say that some people seek attention and are inviting this to happen. If anything, I'd argue that negging them just encourages that kind of behavior.

And while it's true that we could be mindful of their reputation, that crappy posts generally speak for themselves.
True, but once you get 1 or more red dots, I doubt people will even consider reading your posts, so the end result is the same, they ignore you. I generally did that. Yes, it's basically ad hominem, but if you actually managed to get that much of a bad rep, chances of actually saying something useful for a change are slim at best, and MY time is too precious to waste searching for that one moment of brilliance in an otherwise uncivilized... entity. YOUR time, however, is your own, as well as your priorities, so I won't tell you how to use it or even offer any advice on that matter.

Quote:
Why should you spend any energy on a lost cause to begin with? Justice? Honor? Spite? There is no legitimate reason that isn't petty and adds fire to the fuel.

What you call easy and efficient, I call lazy. And I did use it when I felt too lazy to come up with anything thoughtful. It was used when one just didn't want to waste energy and that's why I said these kind of things are petty and worthless anyways. It can be fun, but that's about it. I mean I don't think the mods would take me seriously if I'm like "Don't take away my ability to easily insult lots of people anonymously,because I don't want to put the effort into posting, despite that being the very point of a forum"
It is never fun neg-repping people, for my part. It's only easy and efficient. I hardly see the fun in it, that's why I don't really care that it's gone. For the rest, the first point still applies. You can call it lazy. I, however, see no need OR point to waste my time arguing about the basic qualities of a post that only takes up valuable space and its mere sight shortens my life expectancy, when I could be talking with people like Vexx instead, for example.
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