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Old 2012-12-29, 17:48   Link #25501
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Ultimately, the policemen need to be paid enough to keep the thought of money out of their head - that should be a good start to stifle corruption, the biggest, if not greatest threat to a functioning police force.
This is a thorny issue in a lot of places in America, even. In San Francisco, the police are paid very well. Even basic uniformed officers make a respectable salary, enough to live comfortably on even in San Francisco, an expensive place to live.

I hear anti-government, anti-police types complain endlessly that they get paid too much, that they get too many privileges, that they get away with too much. It hurts my brain when pure illogic pours out of another human's speech-orifice.

I used to live in the South, where cops aren't paid shit. They make barely over minimum wage--and guess what? A lot of them are on the take, or are otherwise corrupt. I remember an incident where a coworker of mine got stopped for a routine traffic violation and the police found his gigantic bag of weed. The officer took the weed and didn't arrest him (which, in Alabama, for that much weed, he'd be tossed in the back of the car so fast he'd get whiplash), or even give him a ticket, told him he'll be let go with a warning. Both of us knew damn well that cop took the weed to either smoke or sell.
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Old 2012-12-29, 18:45   Link #25502
ganbaru
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National Rifle Association vows to fight arms trade treaty at U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BR03420121228
Quote:
The leading U.S. pro-gun group, the National Rifle Association, has vowed to fight a draft international treaty to regulate the $70 billion global arms trade and dismissed suggestions that a recent U.S. school shooting bolstered the case for such a pact.
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Old 2012-12-29, 19:37   Link #25503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
National Rifle Association vows to fight arms trade treaty at U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BR03420121228
I doubt that sheet of paper would stop gunrunners and terrorists, as there are millions of loose Kalasnikovs distributed around the planet through black markets and crime rings.
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Old 2012-12-29, 19:39   Link #25504
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I find it telling that in times of great distress, communities instinctively fall back on these rituals to find solace and the strength to carry on. And this is what I feel is often lacking in the secular view of the world, the relative difficulty it has in reaching people on a deeper, heartfelt and perhaps primeval level.
I wonder if this is more out of habit and deeply ingrained social mores, though. It's certainly an interesting thing to consider, either way. Religion can probably, to some people, give the impression of more 'legitimacy' when paying condolences to the fallen, for instance. On the other hand, I don't think many secular individuals themselves would feel this way.

Regardless, I don't think too many people were checking up on each other's religion after that shooting. Everyone felt outrage and dismay and I think even the most fervent atheists and religious people can find some common ground in expressing shock and sadness in light of that horrible event. I certainly didn't need to attend a candlelit vigil or commune with my neighbors to reach my feelings of anger/horror - and my desire to see constructive changes made to prevent future such occurrences (even if I am not wise enough to think of them myself).
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Old 2012-12-29, 21:45   Link #25505
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http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/331529/...os-says-bishop

As I read this article, I was like, "ARE YOU BLIND?"
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Old 2012-12-29, 22:04   Link #25506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/331529/...os-says-bishop

As I read this article, I was like, "ARE YOU BLIND?"
I stopped reading in the first few lines after the first paragraph. The statements were too ludicrous for me to take.
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Old 2012-12-29, 22:39   Link #25507
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
@SaintessHeart

Too bad none of those actions you listed have anything to do with the sexism rampant in Indian culture. That country is proof that increasing wealth and education do not eliminate traditional attitudes, and needs a total cultural change for women to achieve anything resembling equality, because right now women in India are seen as having negative value (not just relative to men, but actual negative value since the bride's family has to pay the groom's for marriage ). There's a total lack of any appreciation for females.
It is not just India, in many other Asian cultures spanning the entire world, women are often treated as 2nd handed goods. I have heard of a tale where a government expat from India got grilled by his female superior, and promptly said something along the lines of, "If you were in India that tone of voice will get you slapped." Got into a whole lot of trouble.

On the other hand, having worked both blue and white collar as temp and contracts, I would actually want to agree with the incredibly sexist saying of "Women have two mouths and men have two heads" with regards to the current generation of women workers. A number I have met in the management positions, especially in blue collar, are typical Sarah Palin types or realistically detached like their male fresh-grad counterparts. They have never moved heavy equipment before, neither have they visited the warehouse even once, yet they are given the power to have a say in deadlines and workloads. And those claims of "sexism" when they are passed over such positions are entirely unwarranted for when they don't even possess the logic to determine that in the case of a massive stock-in within a single week/month, the BIGGEST items should be the ones to be turned over first, NOT the ones given in the earliest date because of the warehouse space constraints.

The older generation of "aunties" have that pre-requisite experience and understanding of work environments but are treated to glass ceilings because of their age and gender, and their younger female counterparts are offered management positions for "gender fairness" when they don't even possess the necessary experience and understanding of the environments they manage. As a result, there isn't much respect for women even in developed Asian societies, just alot of "do it yourself" and resignation letters being submitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
This is a thorny issue in a lot of places in America, even. In San Francisco, the police are paid very well. Even basic uniformed officers make a respectable salary, enough to live comfortably on even in San Francisco, an expensive place to live.

I hear anti-government, anti-police types complain endlessly that they get paid too much, that they get too many privileges, that they get away with too much. It hurts my brain when pure illogic pours out of another human's speech-orifice.

I used to live in the South, where cops aren't paid shit. They make barely over minimum wage--and guess what? A lot of them are on the take, or are otherwise corrupt. I remember an incident where a coworker of mine got stopped for a routine traffic violation and the police found his gigantic bag of weed. The officer took the weed and didn't arrest him (which, in Alabama, for that much weed, he'd be tossed in the back of the car so fast he'd get whiplash), or even give him a ticket, told him he'll be let go with a warning. Both of us knew damn well that cop took the weed to either smoke or sell.
Pretty much the same difference I can highlight over here and Malaysia next door. I have been on car rides across the causeway where coffee money is given in exchange for a warning for "speeding". Over here the cops would get dismissed for even a single cent taken.

My relatives have told us that the policemen in their kampung are only given incentives, i.e a home near their workplace, personal vehicle, but the pay scale is sometimes not even enough to send their kids to university. Over here, the cops are duly well paid, but they do not have enough balls to step in and break up fights, or spirit to enforce justice, preferring to "investigate the issue".
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Old 2012-12-29, 22:54   Link #25508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
I felt that this was what the author was trying to reflect in his opinion piece. It's interesting to me that it would draw such completely opposite reactions.
Yes, well, I felt the opposite of yours too. All I read was "look at these godless humanists and compare them to the compassionate religious," politicizing a national tragedy cloaked in the garb of humanistic questioning.

The question is kind of a peculiar one. "Where are the secular priests?" I would actually be rather pissed if someone steps out and says something stupid like "let us secularists/atheists join together to mourn this tragedy [amen]," because whether or not you are a humanist has shit all to do with it. And who the hell are they to assume the right to be my priests, to lord over me as my clergy and guides?

The sense of crisis that produces this outpouring of religious unity and cooperation, while in this case harmless and comforting and which I have very little problem with, is the same sense that occasionally, very occasionally mind (ha), produces things like witch burnings, ostracisms, wars, and other Very Fun Things. I would celebrate its presence with utmost reservation. It doesn't even help with finding an actual solution -- unless someone smart, well situated, and infinitely more charismatic than I decide to harness this energy to bring some major cultural and mental health institutional reforms in place (+gun control optional because I don't want to wade into that debate).

I would also have to note that what this article's author attempts to place as exclusively religious is, in fact, for many, many Americans, the supposedly religious Americans, superseded by the national community. It was a national tragedy, on national news, the unofficial public chief mourner is basically the national Head of State, the President, and the religious are but a subgroup in this context. Secular is already the invisible default. If you're looking for comfort in your fellow citizens, well there you are, you're replacing what your ancestors would have relied on religion for. Going by the power of nationalism and the very real and sometimes very, very destructive effects on humanity and the world, nationalism-as-secularism really is doing quite well (the subversion and subsuming of the previous regime, religious faith, into the new regime, nationalism, should not be considered truly "religious" in nature anyway). The state is, after all, the greatest of all secular institutions (us idealists would rather pursue things like human rights and "one world" global unity, but it's just not there yet and won't be for a very long time).

The only way a non-national form of secularism can fulfill the need you mention is by its transforming into "a religion," an institution, something like communism. The State has replaced religion in very many key functions of civilization (legitimizing marriages, for starters, and oh how we still feel the hung up here in the US!), but I would rather leave some prerogatives to the not-state, whether they're faith groups, good old family and friends, the local neighborhood (the lack of an actual neighborhood is a modern problem not directly related to "secularism's" failings), or a subreddit. "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state" isn't a very nice idea.

And since I'm feeling cynical today, I might as well throw in the big, big context that it was only the 20th century that saw the world religions come together in a grand multi-faith celebration of, well, faith, where Popes make apologies to Patriarchs for past city-burnings, the Dalai Lama is a worldwide human rights leader, Zen Buddhism comfortably warps itself around American consumerism, and spiritual leaders come together in well-publicized grand gatherings where high rhetoric are spoken (let's ignore Islam's unique issues for now). Beautiful, unifying, so very human, a spectacular contrast to the religious wars of olden days, and it is only possible because of secularism's growing power and penetration. There is a common problem for them all to share, see.

Last edited by Irenicus; 2012-12-29 at 23:05.
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Old 2012-12-29, 22:58   Link #25509
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I'm sure John Lennon would have had something to say about all that considering his stance on religion.
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Old 2012-12-29, 23:05   Link #25510
synaesthetic
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It's that very secular penetration that scares the fundamentalists, you see. They'd much rather turn back the clock to the religious wars, the jihads, stripping women of rights and power, stoning homosexuals to death and burning witches at the stake.

The forward march of the widening secular state is what keeps religion from misbehaving badly. Where the secular state is narrow and weak (or nonexistent), barbarism in the name of their chosen deity (or deities) rules over all it sees.
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Old 2012-12-29, 23:11   Link #25511
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's that very secular penetration that scares the fundamentalists, you see. They'd much rather turn back the clock to the religious wars, the jihads, stripping women of rights and power, stoning homosexuals to death and burning witches at the stake.

The forward march of the widening secular state is what keeps religion from misbehaving badly. Where the secular state is narrow and weak (or nonexistent), barbarism in the name of their chosen deity (or deities) rules over all it sees.
I guess we are exchanging the lowered age of marriage for less idiocy and unwarranted actions going by "the tenets" of a "holy book"?

Guess it is a choice of lesser evils, though I do not understand why people still want to mandate that "heresy" is some sort of taboo or crime. What is EXACTLY heretical about looking at things from a different perspective?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-12-29, 23:11   Link #25512
Ithekro
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They say a people need to believe in something to gain direction and success. What that thing is is to be deturmined. The "easy way" is religion as it is far easier to just let the clergy tell you the will of the lord and know that whatever happens it is for a purpose or that a higher power is there.

It is a far harder thing to force one to believe in ones self or others, as we are pretty much constantly told we can't do anything or are not good enough. The ego is set to fail on most people.
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Old 2012-12-30, 00:41   Link #25513
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
They say a people need to believe in something to gain direction and success. What that thing is is to be deturmined. The "easy way" is religion as it is far easier to just let the clergy tell you the will of the lord and know that whatever happens it is for a purpose or that a higher power is there.

It is a far harder thing to force one to believe in ones self or others, as we are pretty much constantly told we can't do anything or are not good enough. The ego is set to fail on most people.
This

People are weak, most prefer Warm illusions to Harsh Reality.
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Old 2012-12-30, 00:48   Link #25514
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Four dead as passenger jet crashes into highway outside Moscow

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Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Quote:
A passenger jet crashed into a highway after making a hard landing at Moscow’s Vnukovo Airport. Four people were killed and four critically injured, says the Interior Ministry. Officials believe the cause could be pilot error.
Two people were found dead at the scene of the TU-204 jet crash, while a 27-year-old woman died on the way to hospital. Whether the fourth person died at the scene or in the ambulance remains unclear. Those killed are the captain, the co-pilot, the flight engineer and a flight attendant, the Emergencies Ministry declared
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...or/473696.html
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Old 2012-12-30, 00:52   Link #25515
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
This

People are weak, most prefer Warm illusions to Harsh Reality.
"Reality" wouldn't be so harsh if we weren't harsh on others for no apparent reason. Granted, some people deserve a punch to the face, however it is neither illusion or reality to keep exerting force on them to change their ways.

Besides, "reality" is not much more than a perspective of how we react to what we are informed about based on our senses, ethics and personal thought. It is an opinion that works truly well for each one of us and balances out in each give-and-take relationship. If is helps, congratulations, it is real. If it doesn't, well, it is on the imaginary side of the loci you have drawn for yourself - time to make some shifts and adjustments.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-12-30, 06:25   Link #25516
ganbaru
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Israel eases ban on building material for Gaza
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BT02U20121230

Pakistan militants kill 41 in mass execution, attack on Shi'ites
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BT00T20121230
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Old 2012-12-31, 17:04   Link #25517
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Clinton remains hospitalized with blood clot

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton spent a second day at a New York hospital on Monday, under observation for a blood clot, stemming from a concussion she sustained while battling a stomach virus.

The illness has kept her out of the public view since Dec. 7, and has started to raise a host of questions as her team keeps typically tightlipped about the details: Where is the clot located? How severe is her condition? How soon will she recover? And, as Democrats are privately if not publicly speculating, how might her illness affect a decision about running for president in 2016?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...12-30-20-04-23
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Old 2012-12-31, 17:36   Link #25518
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By the time we reach October in 2016, Hillary Clinton will be 69 years of age. As much I'd like her to write History, I think this is too much of a long shot for her to hope winning the next election.
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Old 2012-12-31, 18:00   Link #25519
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
By the time we reach October in 2016, Hillary Clinton will be 69 years of age. As much I'd like her to write History, I think this is too much of a long shot for her to hope winning the next election.
i agree

so no Hillary for 2016 but get ready for Chelsea in 2024.
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Old 2012-12-31, 18:54   Link #25520
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
By the time we reach October in 2016, Hillary Clinton will be 69 years of age. As much I'd like her to write History, I think this is too much of a long shot for her to hope winning the next election.
That's certainly not old for running for President, but the clot problem will be an issue raised by opponents even if they clear the one they spotted completely up.
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