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Old 2012-12-29, 14:43   Link #221
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane View Post
Because Kirito is a gary stu. And Gary stu doesn't need any annoying, incredibly long development a-la never ending shounen series as long as he's the strongest, loved by the heroines, kick any bad guy's asses and able to bring the story with his sheer awesomeness.

Other than that, i can't think of anything
Kirito is not a stupid Gary Stu! =_= Many members here established legitimate points on how he isn't, in ESSAY LENGTH.

Holy crap, am I sick of this dead horse argument.

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Old 2012-12-29, 17:51   Link #222
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Hence my last line "Other than that, i can't think of anything". That so-called "ESSAY LENGTH" doesn't give a thing to me and just make me more and more confused as the debate goes on. Well, it's not like i care whether he's a gary stu or not though, as long as he's awesome.
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Old 2012-12-30, 12:40   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane View Post
Because Kirito is a gary stu. And Gary stu doesn't need any annoying, incredibly long development a-la never ending shounen series as long as he's the strongest, loved by the heroines, kick any bad guy's asses and able to bring the story with his sheer awesomeness.

Other than that, i can't think of anything
Y'know what, rather than reply in great detail and depth, because it's 1.40AM where I am, I'm just going to link to the following posts, where we all jointly rebut the presumption that Kirito is a sue.

Where Mary Sue tests give false positives.

Rebuttal of weak arguments.

Explanation of how, as Main Character, in an organic setting, Kirito is not a Sue, by Aphrah.

Rebuttals, ahoy.

Further rebuttals on the issue of whether Kirito is a sue. In one corner, childish insistence. In the other, methodical arguing with points and superior command of language.

But one more thing: SAO is Kirito's story. Kirito is organic to this verse and setting. As such, by definition, he cannot truly be considered a Stu or a Sue, as he's the main character, and not a fanfic character.

Though if Kirito's a sue, then so must the top MMO players in all MMO games in the world. Hell, I guess I'm a sue too - I went from being bottom of the ranks to the top 4% of all 544,000+ Mass Effect 3 players in the world, over an 8-month period. And I guess the Twin Bloodtears over at EVE Online must also be sues as well - afterall, you don't expect two guys to be able to purge a territory held by a guild. Except that's what they did.

At the end of the day, whether a character is a sue or not is not a complete arbiter of whether the character is entertaining. If the audience is entertained, they will be willing to accept the character.

Sephiroth. Nineball Seraph. Sues, both of them - but beloved characters as well.

I rest my case.

Also, my apologies on Essay Length in most of those above links, but the way I was taught to argue my case was to establish the situation, and present points to support my argument against my opponent. There is much to be said about the British method of teaching Law.
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Old 2012-12-31, 00:56   Link #224
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^ So Kirito bashers can't appreciate him because they haven't been to the top of the MMO standings like you?

I mean, damn, not everyone has been to the top of any MMO standings like Kirito is. So does it mean we can't appreciate him unless we're like the top 1000 MMO gamers in the world?

So how can a mid-to-low-level MMO gamer appreciate him?
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Old 2012-12-31, 00:58   Link #225
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Pretty sure Goose is just refuting the arguments of Kirito's skill level being god-tier as "unrealistic"...
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Old 2012-12-31, 01:04   Link #226
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Yes, I understand now that Kirito really earned his high level (2 years of continuous playing can do that for you). I'm just saying that I'm having a hard time appreciating him because he had the system's help in defeating villain GM's (which is kinda necessary, since it's impossible to do so in RL MMOs), and I suck at MMOs.
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Old 2012-12-31, 01:26   Link #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Yes, I understand now that Kirito really earned his high level (2 years of continuous playing can do that for you). I'm just saying that I'm having a hard time appreciating him because he had the system's help in defeating villain GM's (which is kinda necessary, since it's impossible to do so in RL MMOs), and I suck at MMOs.

Wait, are you saying Kirito is too strong, or that he's not strong enough? O_o
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Old 2012-12-31, 01:29   Link #228
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Dunno. Maybe both?

If I'm going to say "too strong", it's actually pretty understandable why he had to seek the system's help in defeating a villain GM which would otherwise be impossible (Ultima's Lord British was killed b/c the GM controlling him forgot to put his invincibility flag back on).

I'm definitely not going to say, "not strong enough", because the opposite is exactly what the bashers are on about.
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Old 2012-12-31, 12:17   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Yes, I understand now that Kirito really earned his high level (2 years of continuous playing can do that for you). I'm just saying that I'm having a hard time appreciating him because he had the system's help in defeating villain GM's (which is kinda necessary, since it's impossible to do so in RL MMOs), and I suck at MMOs.
Technically, he didn't use the system to help him defeat Kayaba; in the first duel, Kayaba had to use the system to defeat Kirito, because Kirito would have exposed him.

As for their last duel, Kirito managed to glitch and exceed the system to stay alive long enough to deal a killing blow to Kayaba, who had already turned off his Invincibility. Throughout the rest of the light novels, there are strong hints that the Cardinal System and The Seed aren't set in stone, and that it's possible for players to exceed the system. Note Asuna managing her diving save despite being under the paralysis effect, or being able to run at 60km/h to save Kirito - a speed which the LNs note exceeds the game parameters. Kayaba himself is surprised that it's happening... but being a gamer, he rolls with it.

All the system helped him was delay his death long enough for him to land a killing blow on Heathcliff. That killing blow was all him.

That said, an interpretation of your perspective might be that as you suck at MMOs and RPGs, you are therefore unable to comprehend of a situation where high-level, expert players exist, as you have no experience of being such a player. Am I wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Pretty sure Goose is just refuting the arguments of Kirito's skill level being god-tier as "unrealistic"...
Thank you. I'm glad at least someone gets where I'm coming from.

Edit: I talk alot about ME3 MP, but honesty compels me to acknowledge that ME3MP is a lot more forgiving than other MMOs because it's PVE, with zero PVP, and it's a third person shooter, so the learning curve isn't as high. It's also setup in such a way that unlike a conventional MMO, there are no useless classes - in fact the starting unlocks and classes remain competitive even against the Ultra Rares, even on Gold and Platinum.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2012-12-31 at 12:56.
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Old 2012-12-31, 12:37   Link #230
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I rather liked early on (Ep3-8) Kirito is framed as this super awesome badass who swoops out of nowhere to save people, but from another perspective, he's just a high level character hanging out in newbie zones in order to show off.

Although after WoW being a high level didn't mean much anymore in the MMO-scape, in the earlier days of FFXI and Everquest it was still a pretty big accomplishment just to reach the level cap. Every so often as a fresh player, carefully making your way through a low level, but for you difficult dungeon or something, someone would wander on by in full artifact armor, and lend you a quick helping hand. And when you reached that point your self someday, you'll find yourself wandering the fields when you see someone who could use some help, and the cycle continues.

That, I think was the underlying idea behind Kirito's early portrayal, at least.
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Old 2012-12-31, 15:03   Link #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Technically, he didn't use the system to help him defeat Kayaba; in the first duel, Kayaba had to use the system to defeat Kirito, because Kirito would have exposed him.

As for their last duel, Kirito managed to glitch and exceed the system to stay alive long enough to deal a killing blow to Kayaba, who had already turned off his Invincibility. Throughout the rest of the light novels, there are strong hints that the Cardinal System and The Seed aren't set in stone, and that it's possible for players to exceed the system. Note Asuna managing her diving save despite being under the paralysis effect, or being able to run at 60km/h to save Kirito - a speed which the LNs note exceeds the game parameters. Kayaba himself is surprised that it's happening... but being a gamer, he rolls with it.

All the system helped him was delay his death long enough for him to land a killing blow on Heathcliff. That killing blow was all him.

That said, an interpretation of your perspective might be that as you suck at MMOs and RPGs, you are therefore unable to comprehend of a situation where high-level, expert players exist, as you have no experience of being such a player. Am I wrong?
Thus, Accel World's Incarnate System. Pretty much makes sense if one just reads the LNs and watch the anime, huh?

I was referring to Suguou when I said "he used the system to beat the GM". But now I know that it is possible for a player to beat a GM WITHOUT HELP FROM THE SYSTEM if the GM just turned off his Invincibility flag.

Nope, I haven't experienced high-level play. I'm too broke for it. No use playing my toon for several hours a day if I can't fund it consistently. Plus I get bored from the grinding too easily (my longest grind lasted for 12 hours, yet I'm still nowhere near the level cap HML), but I have nothing else to do but grinding because I suck at PR. Bad PR = few people on the friends list = crap tier guild.

It has also become my belief that to be a top-tier MMO player you need to BLEED cash.

And btw, we don't play Mass Effect around here in our country. Defense of the Ancients and other similar games are the most popular around here, but again, I don't play anymore. I can't find a game where I could be at the top without shelling out a single dime.
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Old 2012-12-31, 15:31   Link #232
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As a note, there are still plenty of MMOs out there that aren't "Pay to Win." Guild Wars 2 for instance, requires only the investment of the original game with no subscription, and the only cash shop items are cosmetic or minor quality of life increases.

And while subscription games like WoW require a steady flow of $15 a month (50c a day), that puts you on equal footing with every other player in the game, with the only determining factors being time and skill.


Moving back on topic, the absolute most impressive thing Kirito did was the fact that he did it all with permadeath on.Back when I played I was one of the best players on my server in WoW, in the top guild, with some of the best gear in the game taking on the toughest bosses. But every victory was hard fought, standing on a pile of the corpses from a hundred wipes to get there. I'm a fan of roguelikes too, but I can count the time I've ever beaten one legit with 1 finger. I would never even dream of playing Diablo 3 on hardcore mode.

SAO as a game honestly seems pretty easy, and balanced around the fact that you don't get re-tries. But how absurdly careful you would have to be, grinding up to the top, especially alone like Kirito did. (It's touched on a bit in the novels.) Or the fear of stepping into a boss room, having no idea what any of it's abilities are, or how strong it is, or even what it looks like.
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Old 2012-12-31, 15:49   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
As a note, there are still plenty of MMOs out there that aren't "Pay to Win." Guild Wars 2 for instance, requires only the investment of the original game with no subscription, and the only cash shop items are cosmetic or minor quality of life increases.

And while subscription games like WoW require a steady flow of $15 a month (50c a day), that puts you on equal footing with every other player in the game, with the only determining factors being time and skill.
Time became a problem for me when I stopped school because we can't pay for it anymore. So now, here I am, sitting around like a bum 24/7 for like 2 months now. So time shouldn't be a problem, anymore, right? Nope. I'm stuck with a crappy non-gaming laptop, so I can only play so much of my favorite games at a time.

Skill, hmm... I'm used to the traditional wait-until-poked RPGs, so when it comes to action RPGs, I tend to stumble even on the easiest missions (read: mid-level missions at the highest difficult) and I get my ass kicked in PvP.

Another problem I have is that I can't afford decent gear because by the time I can buy it, the gear becomes rare and crappy and better gear would be on sale. This is frustrating because people look at other players based on their gears, because generally, good gears = skilled player. Nobody has the patience to put up with a newbie, especially on popular missions. So I'm stuck with flying solo on a crappy mission because everyone else is too picky and expects everyone to be very skilled at the game. And I can't practice my skills because my budget won't allow me to (crappy laptop can't handle my game, so I'm forced to spend the little allowance I have on PC rentals).

That said, I don't think I could ever play SAO. However awesome could it be, I would die very quickly if I ever got the chance.
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Old 2013-01-01, 13:52   Link #234
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post

So how can a mid-to-low-level MMO gamer appreciate him?
Just to clear up things, I've never played an MMO in my entire life and yeah....guess who my avatar features?
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Old 2013-01-02, 00:54   Link #235
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Just to clear up things, I've never played an MMO in my entire life and yeah....guess who my avatar features?
So that's what the audience wants, huh? A protagonist so overpowered that not even the final boss can't touch him? A protagonist who only loses to a minor character we will never see again?

Granted, it's impossible to beat a GM without the system's help OR the player exceeding the system (through hacking or whatever) in real life MMO's unless the GM himself removes his invincibility flag, I'm going to give him that.

Deus Ex Machina or not, it does make sense plot-wise. But really? So that's what people want now? An protagonist that can't be beaten by anyone, even by the most powerful entity of the setting?

Okay, who doesn't want that kind of protagonist? But defeating EVERYONE in one shot, including the Final Boss? Come on.
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Old 2013-01-02, 02:07   Link #236
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
A protagonist so overpowered that not even the final boss can't touch him?
Heh? Seriously? I'll check that episode..... I know Kayaba hit him with his sword..
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Old 2013-01-02, 02:22   Link #237
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When it came to the battle of "Who is the better fighter", Kirito lost to Kayaba, full stop. He made a stupid mistake, and paid for it.

Things all worked out in the end, yes. Kirito was able to defy the system with sheer willpower, and bring things to a draw. But it doesn't change the fact that Kayaba beat his ass into the ground, and he wasn't able to win with his all of his vaunted video game skillz.
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Old 2013-01-02, 03:03   Link #238
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose
At the end of the day, whether a character is a sue or not is not a complete arbiter of whether the character is entertaining. If the audience is entertained, they will be willing to accept the character.

Sephiroth. Nineball Seraph. Sues, both of them - but beloved characters as well.
I like this reply the most, people should speak more of this. If I may add, Kirito may or may not be a Sue, and I now think that trying to prove for or against it is rather pointless and doesn't really carry much weight since the definition of the word floats all over the place.

So yes, while I think Kirito is a Sue, but I also like the guy. Kind of how I like Dante DMC or the aforementioned Sephiroth. Which I think weighs heavily on the 'cool' factor.
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Old 2013-01-02, 04:36   Link #239
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Well, somebody did post that the term "Sue" does not apply to original characters, but only to fan-fiction characters, and I stuck to it.

So basically, what I felt about Kirito is similar to what I felt towards DMC's Dante? Weird, huh? But unlike Kirito, I liked Dante from the start, he's so cool, but it took him a while to beat Vergil, depending on the player controlling him.
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Old 2013-01-02, 08:23   Link #240
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Does anyone know the highest level Kirito reached?

Someone told me, that in the LN - it mentioned him being over 90 about the time when him and Asuna got married in SAO. But, if that were true - why did he get wooped against the scythe boss in the hidden underground dungeon at the town of beginnings?
Kirito stated the boss was easily in the 90's, but even so - he got pwned.

I'm pretty sure his safety margin of 10 levels would of definitely given him the advantage then.
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