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Old 2012-12-31, 22:58   Link #21
CJ_Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Not all of them, btw, but they seem to follow this formula:

1. Have a ridiculously sob backstory.
2. Ditch your moral values and become like the honey badger who doesn't give a crap.
3. Ditch your friends, because they can't help you, and could even be an obstacle to you.
4. Go on a quest for UNLIMITED POWER!
5. Become so overpowered that not even the final villain can TOUCH YOU.
6. If the final villain somehow overpowers you, know that the Deus Ex Machina is still out there to save you, if you're lucky.
7. ???
8. PROFIT!

If you can't follow all of these (I mean ALL OF THESE), people will call you a wimp and never consider you as a badass.

If somebody can prove me wrong by giving me a RECENTLY POPULAR badass MC who is still a paragon of justice and a solid believer in the Power of Friendship, be my guest.

Spoiler:

I have been in an actual argument over this one.

Thank you.
Can you give me a list of those awesome MCs, Cause seriously, I cant remember any besides that owsawa guy. . .Maybe Kamina but well. . we all know what happened there.

also, I actually like the guy from accell world, I never had too much of an issue...I think the story line as a whole was just crap though, had a good premise and setting, but the story is just stupid, and according to the source material, it just goes on and on and on (its not even close to being finished) When It had the potential of being awesome with some awesome growth of the MC, but the story. . .and the stupid loli red king B.S. killed it for me. It would be awesome if the story really involved some growth, but yeah people hated on him from the start, mostly because of the character design of him . . .which I can definitely see how that can be a turnoff (he looks more like a caricature than an actual short and fat character)

but yeah, provide a list of these awesome MCs that I have seem to have missed
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Old 2012-12-31, 23:01   Link #22
Resolve
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I know it might be a bit dodgy but
Kamina from gurren lagann?
He was the main character essentially at the beginning
He loved his friends
Never became overpowered

Just throwing it out there x3
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Old 2012-12-31, 23:16   Link #23
CJ_Walker
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Jonathan Joestar,


a list:

Touma from A Certain Magical Index
Hayate, the Combat Butler
Taichi Yaegashi from Kokoro Connect (He's such a White Knight, he kicked himself in his own balls to help a girl out.)
Marika from Bodacious Space Pirates. You'd think if anyone would be a dark MC it'd be a pirate, but no, Marika is a pretty straight privateer.
Koyomi Araragi from Bakemonogatari
Shichika from Katanagatari
Satou in Ben-To
Daikichi from Bunny Drop
Okumura Rin from Blue Exorcist


The only one I can think of that fits your list is Kanba from Penguindrum. But even in Penguindrum he is offset by Shouma who is the opposite.
I don't think Touma has any issues, hes pretty good, I mean the only thing he has is his punch (can someone say sniper?)
Hayate = he's a comedy character so I don't think it counts, plus that show is bad, mostly thanks to Tsundere. . . (after S1)
Taichi(kokoro connect) . . .yeah fuck him, I hated that guy lol
Marika is Awesome, It'd be hard to even catagorize an mc like her, especially in a show like that
Shichika, wasn't really a gary stu, it was obvious that he was going to get all twelve swords (12 episodes of 40 minutes each) he was just strong, but it served the story, and a deus ex machina still didn't help him when it counted
"never saw ben-to but ill check it out"
Daikichi = blame the author for that one, because ...DAT ENDING...WTF
Rin form Blue exorcist. . .actaully tha anime changed a LOT from the source material, that guy had a freakin hard time in the original manga, they pretty much turn that over on its head in the anime(which is why I dropped it) although with a premise like that, its kinda hard to not go into dbz mode there...I eventually dropped the source material as it was just going no where. and I don't think that Rin would fit the Op's list. . .maybe some parts like deus ex machina (literally lol) but in most of these cases its the rest of the story thats bad, not really the "gary stu"(except kokoro connect. . .fuck that taichi guy he's the #1 gary stu, he gary stu's so hard that the anime tried to make some failed character development mini arc on how much of a gary stu he is. . .that was a failure)

Penguin-drum: well I thought that penguin drum was a bad, pretentious, waste of space that should have never been aired so I hated all the characters equally, even the fucking penguins. . .fuck penguins!

anyway of that list really the only guy that would fufill the ops list would be taichi
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Old 2012-12-31, 23:18   Link #24
CJ_Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
I know it might be a bit dodgy but
Kamina from gurren lagann?
He was the main character essentially at the beginning
He loved his friends
Never became overpowered

Just throwing it out there x3

Well its kinda hard to even judge if the OP isn't giving us anything to base his thoughts on. . .like who in his mind fits the list and WHY so its kinda like. .."well . . .ok, thats good for you. . ."
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Old 2013-01-01, 00:54   Link #25
judasmartel
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Originally Posted by GDiddy View Post
I hate Gary Stus too.
You should know by now that the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu does not apply to original characters, only to self-inserted characters in fan fiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
I don't think Touma has any issues, hes pretty good, I mean the only thing he has is his punch (can someone say sniper?)
Some issues people have with Touma is that he's a particularly bland harem protagonist (but given that he's screwed whoever he chooses...) and that his ability is some sort of Plot Armor. You know, if it really is Plot Armor, then why does he lose to physical fighters when even one of the most powerful magicians in the story can't even freaking TOUCH HIM?

But well, if you think Imagine Breaker is bad, you haven't probably seen Naruto (Kishi LOVES the Uchiha clan) and Bleach (ZOMG AIZEN SO OP) yet.

Anyways, see my sig for the exact reason why I started this thread.
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Old 2013-01-01, 01:04   Link #26
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
You should know by now that the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu does not apply to original characters, only to self-inserted characters in fan fiction.
Well, that was the original definition, but nowadays when so many main characters are no better written than fan fiction characters, the term has evolved to address those types too.
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Old 2013-01-01, 01:08   Link #27
judasmartel
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But see, that pushes some people's buttons. It actually happened when somebody tried to defend Kirito. Okay, some say, "he's a Stu"; others say, "no, he's not, him being OP makes sense in-story". This has become so much of a problem that I gave up trying to reason with Kirito fanboys anymore.

Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but if you're going to give me an interesting protagonist, please give me someone who earns all his victories the hard way without the help of the Deus Ex Machina.
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Old 2013-01-01, 04:51   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Except Light is a sociopath with almost no redeeming value at all. We basically see him 'fall' from grace, as the circumstances become more dire for him, he sheds more and more of his humanity and charisma until we finally see how pathetic he is at his end.
People change when they stare death in the face.
I would call his intelligence a redeeming value, especially since it surpasses that of the worlds greatest detective.
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Old 2013-01-01, 06:56   Link #29
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Last Exile and Banner of the Stars are kind of contenders, depending on your definition of badassery.

In Last Exile, Claus doesn't really have a very tragic back story. Yes it's a sad story, but it's also very typical both in fiction and in real life and since he really doesn't let it bother him it's not really sad at all. His character stays pretty level throughout the series, but in some ways he is a badass in that he comes to terms with what he must do and does it with a decreasing amount of complaint. That's more of a respectable character sort of thing, but the fact that there's a war going on around him kind of makes it badass.

Alex Rowe from Last Exile (captain of the Silvana) is also a super badass in all respects without really fitting into any particularly cliche category. He's a man of mystery who fears nothing and doesn't really have any particularly obvious motivations (without spoiling things, anyhow). He's not the main character though, although I'd be down with a prequel where he is. Just saying.

As far as Banner of the Stars goes, I feel like Jinto can be qualified as a badass. Especially throwing Crest of the Stars and the OVA with the prison into the mix where he gets to survive harsh situations. Then there's the fact that he ends up going to war after having been sort of thrown into his position because of his nobility. I haven't even mentioned Lafiel yet. Let's face it, you have to be a badass to handle a classy lady like her.

I would also throw out the main character from Kamisama no Memochou who was a pretty cool character.

Honestly, I feel like you can muster up a sizable list. The issue is that those characters who don't fit are the less memorable ones who really didn't have a whole lot going for them or much happening around them. Honestly, I don't think that makes them any less awesome.
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Old 2013-01-01, 11:31   Link #30
CJ_Walker
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
You should know by now that the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu does not apply to original characters, only to self-inserted characters in fan fiction.



Some issues people have with Touma is that he's a particularly bland harem protagonist (but given that he's screwed whoever he chooses...) and that his ability is some sort of Plot Armor. You know, if it really is Plot Armor, then why does he lose to physical fighters when even one of the most powerful magicians in the story can't even freaking TOUCH HIM?

But well, if you think Imagine Breaker is bad, you haven't probably seen Naruto (Kishi LOVES the Uchiha clan) and Bleach (ZOMG AIZEN SO OP) yet.

Anyways, see my sig for the exact reason why I started this thread.

Ahh! LOL I had to enable signatures for a moment to see that LOL, yeah I remember the hate on accell world cause of the mc, I mean I kinda got it. . .people really didn't like his character design - I was on the fence about it I was refreshed that they had an mc be short and fat. . .thought it was something new, like having that old guy be a MC in that futuristic anime a while back (forgot the name, sorry) but he wasn't realistically short and fat, kinda felt like they were making fun of fat people in that show tbh lol. . .but I still liked him despite all of that. . .the story of the show just turned dumb imo that whole last arc wasn't necessary, especially as the original is not even close to finished. . .but that's another thread for another day lol


and yeah, everyone knows bleach and Naruto is bad so they don't count ;p

@trace dio is a badass too lol, hell. . .the WHOLE CAST is full of badasses!

. . .ahh the memories...
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Old 2013-01-02, 02:48   Link #31
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Well, that was the original definition, but nowadays when so many main characters are no better written than fan fiction characters, the term has evolved to address those types too.
Yeah, eventually apples would be called oranges and anybody can be anything.
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Old 2013-01-02, 03:14   Link #32
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Yeah, eventually apples would be called oranges and anybody can be anything.
I'm not a linguist, but I suppose that might just not be impossible. Terms do evolve their meanings over time and sometimes in ways that have little in common with the derived word (look at what happened with 'gay').
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Old 2013-01-03, 05:15   Link #33
fukarming
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Not all of them, btw, but they seem to follow this formula:

1. Have a ridiculously sob backstory.
2. Ditch your moral values and become like the honey badger who doesn't give a crap.
3. Ditch your friends, because they can't help you, and could even be an obstacle to you.
4. Go on a quest for UNLIMITED POWER!
5. Become so overpowered that not even the final villain can TOUCH YOU.
6. If the final villain somehow overpowers you, know that the Deus Ex Machina is still out there to save you, if you're lucky.
7. ???
8. PROFIT!

If you can't follow all of these (I mean ALL OF THESE), people will call you a wimp and never consider you as a badass.

If somebody can prove me wrong by giving me a RECENTLY POPULAR badass MC who is still a paragon of justice and a solid believer in the Power of Friendship, be my guest.

Spoiler:

I have been in an actual argument over this one.

Thank you.
I must say, I don't quite understand what you are complaining about

In a fiction show, we know the MC will beat the big bad. If the MC is not more powerful than the big bad, he will need some deux ex Machina to beat it (5 and 6)

Also, the big bad always disregard moral issue (thus they are the bad guys), thus if the MC care about moral issues or friends (moral issues and underpower friends limit the full power of the MC), he will need to significantly overpower to secure the victory. If not, he will need deux ex Machina to help him. (2,3,5 and 6)
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Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2013-01-03, 05:20   Link #34
judasmartel
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It's just that some MCs are so overpowered I no longer care how would he beat the final boss anymore. And THAT is boring. If he's going to beat the final boss, at least make me interested on how he would do it.

That, and it just tells me you have to abandon your moral values and your friends to be considered badass. I know it's not the case, but MCs like these make me feel like nothing good ever comes from believing what is right.
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Old 2013-01-03, 05:27   Link #35
fukarming
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what is the definition of badass?

Superman is ultra strong, but he is never considered a badass because he always follow rules and morality.

Isn't to be consider a badass, you need to have some sort of "bad" in your character?
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2013-01-03, 05:42   Link #36
judasmartel
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I'm really more into the "I'm usually a nice guy, but mess with me and you'll get it" types of characters.
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Old 2013-01-03, 05:51   Link #37
Xion Valkyrie
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Which main characters are you referring to? Most badass mains are morally upstanding, even if they act aloof. Very few mainstream badass main characters would throw away their friends or morals to achieve their goals.

Even Guts, the quintessential 'badass' driven by revenge eventually learns what it means to protect what he has now and struggle against his own hatred.
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Old 2013-01-03, 06:32   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Isn't to be consider a badass, you need to have some sort of "bad" in your character?
The "bad" being used isn't the formal definition but the slang definition

Quote:
The word stayed largely within the African American community throughout the 70ís until the 80ís saw everyone adopt it as their term for describing someone or something that was cooler than the word cool could adequately convey.
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Old 2013-01-03, 06:45   Link #39
Sheba
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I'm really more into the "I'm usually a nice guy, but mess with me and you'll get it" types of characters.
Someone like Hulk?
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Old 2013-01-03, 06:46   Link #40
judasmartel
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I'm not really referring to any main. The list is what I thought people think is the ideal protagonist. Obviously, I was wrong.

Okay, I'll dissect the list for you guys.

1. Have a ridiculously sob backstory.
Somebody told me that conflict is necessary to make a good story. But what kind of conflict? One that starts off deep? Can't we have a well-received story where the real conflict starts right just after it has began, like that of Jonathan Joestar; instead of a story which WILL turn out sour like that of Kiritsugu Emiya or Light Yagami?

Don't get me wrong, I like Kiritsugu, even if he has the probably most sob-worthy backstory ever. I just find it unnerving to see that people seem to like tragic characters and make them up as badasses by saying that Shinji Ikari or Haruyuki Arita has no right to whine about anything when they don't even freaking understand the psychology behind them. They want wimpy MCs to develop a backbone within a span of half a episode, even if they were already suffering for like 10 years due to things beyond their control.

I mean, can't I like both wimps and badasses at the same time? People actually berate me for liking wimpy MCs.

2. Ditch your moral values and become like the honey badger who doesn't give a crap.

I blame it to the manipulative villain who gets praised more for just being good at plans while berating the hero for falling for the guy's trap and succumbing to his values when it clearly can't help him against the villain. They treat morality like it's some sort of Idiot Ball. I hate that. They don't call it "evil", they call it "smart". But to me, "evil" is still "evil", no matter how "smart" it is.

Again, don't get me wrong. I like cunning characters (like Shu from Suikoden 2, who reminds me of Aizen), but I really hate it when they equate goodness with dumbness and demand that mains have to be a step ahead of the villain all the freaking time.

3. Ditch your friends, because they can't help you, and could even be an obstacle to you.

I blame this to the hero party who are usually portrayed to be utterly useless against the enemies so our hero has no choice but to win it by himself. I really can't blame people for asking for shows where the hero party actually does something better than just being hero bait.

Being the party healer is also quite a problem, because they can't fight. [sarcasm]Combat skills are required for all members of the hero party.[/sarcasm] So make him/her a Combat Medic. Problem is, CM's get Worf'd most of the time. I'm glad the medic-nin from Naruto are not such cases.

Barring Priestess Yufa from Ragnarok the Animation, I have never seen White Mages win a single fight. I would like to see a WM win a fight by using the Holy Hand Grenade once in a while.

4. Go on a quest for UNLIMITED POWER!

Duh, that's the point of fighters, right? But please don't treat it like it's the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal should be to use it for the sake of good.

5. Become so overpowered that not even the final villain can TOUCH YOU.

Now that I think of it, I couldn't really think of an MC who can one-shot the final villain. I think I was just exaggerating things. Finishing them with over-the-top moves (for the sake of climax IKR) doesn't really help matters.

I would just say that the harder the MC struggles against the final villain, the better. This is the reason why I liked Kosuke Ueki better than Kirito.

6. If the final villain somehow overpowers you, know that the Deus Ex Machina is still out there to save you, if you're lucky.

I think the Deus Ex Machina ruined most chances for me to ever appreciate Kirito. So in the end, he really didn't win his fights all by himself, he had help from the system.

People usually don't complain about too little help from the Deus Ex Machina and yet complain about too much help from the Deus Ex Machina. But SAO fans don't care about how often the Deus Ex Machina helped Kirito because it makes sense in-story.

So I guess Deus Ex Machina is okay as long as it's explained in the plot, but to me it diminishes the value of the hero's victory, depending on its use.

7. ???
8. PROFIT!


I'll tell you this: I spent the entire two weeks sour-graping on Kirito because of all the hate towards Haru of Accel World. People keep saying Kirito is better because he's thin and Haru is fat, because Kirito is badass right off the bat and Haru has no right to whine because everything is now going his way, because Kirito deserves his girls and Haru doesn't

I really don't like it when people set double standards on others, anime characters or otherwise. So it's okay to be Shinji Ikari but not Haruyuki Arita? So only thin people can become main characters and fat people are not allowed to become main characters?

I mean, right?
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