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View Poll Results: Nekomonogatari Black Rating
Perfect 10 31 35.63%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 27 31.03%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 19.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.90%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.30%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.15%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 2.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.15%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-02, 10:29   Link #61
Clarste
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The underwear color conversation maybe went on for a bit too long, but it's not like it was completely irrelevant. On the superficial level it's obviously about Hanekawa's choice of underwear which... we'll being seeing a lot of for the next 2 episodes, but it's also about the nature of White and Black Hanekawa.
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Old 2013-01-02, 10:32   Link #62
apr
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The underwear color conversation maybe went on for a bit too long, but it's not like it was completely irrelevant. On the superficial level it's obviously about Hanekawa's choice of underwear which... we'll being seeing a lot of for the next 2 episodes, but it's also about the nature of White and Black Hanekawa.
That doesn't matter much when you're first reading it. As an opening sequence for an entirely new story, it's a godawful experience to trudge through. Much like the horrible alarm clock monologue in Tsukimonogatari. -_-
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Old 2013-01-02, 11:02   Link #63
Clarste
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I dunno, personally I like the way Nisio writes entirely meaningless dialog which seamlessly transitions into entirely meaningful dialog. Waiting for the pay-off in the second half is half the fun. Personally this is why I didn't enjoy Nise very much. There was very little pay-off from the early conversations.
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Old 2013-01-02, 11:28   Link #64
Folenfant
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I freely admit that this is one of those franchises I watch for all the sexy poses and when I just need something to throw on in the background before I go to sleep. The dialogue is just wretched in all but a few instances and there's rarely any substance to any of it. For me watching an episode of monogatari is and probably always will be like going to the scene replayer in eroge and just randomly picking scene after scene.
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Old 2013-01-02, 11:44   Link #65
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I dunno, personally I like the way Nisio writes entirely meaningless dialog which seamlessly transitions into entirely meaningful dialog. Waiting for the pay-off in the second half is half the fun. Personally this is why I didn't enjoy Nise very much. There was very little pay-off from the early conversations.
It's not meaningless should one pay attention to the characters and not ogle or rage with underwear
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Old 2013-01-02, 11:45   Link #66
Clarste
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Did you not read the second half of the sentence?
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Old 2013-01-02, 11:52   Link #67
Malkuth
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I did mate, but I disagree with it too on the same logical basis as your first one
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Old 2013-01-02, 11:58   Link #68
Clarste
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Okay, then I think you misunderstood the entire sentence.
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Old 2013-01-02, 12:02   Link #69
Malkuth
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Sorry mate, I might, I'll think about it again tomorrow (now I am too tired to rethink it.... Comiket->Emperor->YasukuniNeoNazis->ToraNoAna->MetalBarCrawl)
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Old 2013-01-02, 13:28   Link #70
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
That part is not irrelevant at all. That part is very important for the development of the story in Neko Black, with Neko Black being a cornerstone of Araragi's chara development along all the first season of Monogatari, including his relationship with Hitagi. In a way, Araragi discussing about when one is in love could apply even to his relationship with Senjougahara.
I did not learn anything new in this episode in the first 17 minutes about Araragi's relationship to Hanekawa previously to Bake. However, my main beef with the scenes are just how boring the dialogue was. There were parts of Nise that drove me crazy, like the toothbrush, but rather than stupid this was just boring. It felt like Nisio was on auto pilot and didn't even try. It doesn't help that Tsukihi is by far my least favorite character in Monogatari. And unlike other people here I do not believe in wincest.

There is a difference between an author's intent though and how much an author succeeds at expressing that intent. I can see the point of Nekomonogatari, but the way they are going about in telling this story in the first episode is anything but good to me.
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Old 2013-01-02, 14:02   Link #71
Clarste
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Why would it be about their relationship in particular? It's about Araragi.
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Old 2013-01-02, 14:26   Link #72
komaruze
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I still think it has one of the strongest endings in the series, though. The way it ties into Bakemonogatari gave me goosebumps.
This. The last sentence "I go up the stairs" was probably my favorite in the whole OVA.

The first part (Tsukihi) was the weakest part, although I wouldn't outright say it was bad. I actually kind of liked the dialogue itself, it was just the weird imouto-fanservice that turned me off (especially Karen).
The rest of the OVA was enjoyable for me. Sometimes when I read people's opinions comparing the "sequel" animes with Bake, I can't help but think that Bake was hyped too much. Was is really that good? Yeah, it was better, I agree, but was it really that much better than Nise or Neko-Kuro? I can't make judgments based on the LNs (just reading Kizu now), but for the anime adaptions, while Nise felt way worse (content-wise) than Bake to me, Neko wasn't all that bad. I seriously think some people are ruining their own enjoyment of the series by putting Bake on a pedestal. Bake was pretty good, but that's it.
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Old 2013-01-02, 15:19   Link #73
Daniel Lind
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I'd say Tsubasa Family is better than Bake just because as far as prequels go, it enriches the original rather than just being there or even ruining it.
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Old 2013-01-02, 15:44   Link #74
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I did not learn anything new in this episode in the first 17 minutes about Araragi's relationship to Hanekawa previously to Bake.
I think it was never implied in Bake that Araragi had once wanted to confess his love to Hanekawa. This is new.
Quote:
However, my main beef with the scenes are just how boring the dialogue was.
I think that everyone has his insecurities, especially when one was a teenager, so I believe that what Araragi was going through is highly relatable. The original dialogue in itself had a lot more gags, though I guess they had to be cut because they disrupted the flow of the conversation.
Quote:
And unlike other people here I do not believe in wincest.
This is not a matter of believing in wincest or not.

For example, in these days I have read To-love-ru, which is a classic of romantic comedy. There the protagonist, Yuuki Rito, falls onto other girls. Somehow he ends up with his head in their panties and his hands inside their bras. He has no ill intentions, just a bizarre case of clumsiness. Even when he has something serious to talk about he still falls onto some girl.

It is similar to what happens here. Araragi wants to have a serious conversation, and harbors no ill intentions at all, yet he still crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed, readily yet somehow against his will.
Quote:
There is a difference between an author's intent though and how much an author succeeds at expressing that intent. I can see the point of Nekomonogatari, but the way they are going about in telling this story in the first episode is anything but good to me.
I think it is better to talk about what the author wanted to do when you have read what he have actually written though. While the lines come from Nisio, the way they are interpreted comes from the director.
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Old 2013-01-02, 15:49   Link #75
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post

This is not a matter of believing in wincest or not.

For example, in these days I have read To-love-ru, which is a classic of romantic comedy. There the protagonist, Yuuki Rito, falls onto other girls. Somehow he ends up with his head in their panties and his hands inside their bras. He has no ill intentions, just a bizarre case of clumsiness. Even when he has something serious to talk about he still falls onto some girl.

It is similar to what happens here. Araragi wants to have a serious conversation, and harbors no ill intentions at all, yet he still crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed, readily yet somehow against his will.
Yeah, Araragi's relationship with his sisters is what I find to be one of his most interesting points, despite how weird it is normally. It's the way something so abnormal happens as a matter of course, really.
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Old 2013-01-02, 16:36   Link #76
Folenfant
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Originally Posted by komaruze View Post
This. The last sentence "I go up the stairs" was probably my favorite in the whole OVA.

The first part (Tsukihi) was the weakest part, although I wouldn't outright say it was bad. I actually kind of liked the dialogue itself, it was just the weird imouto-fanservice that turned me off (especially Karen).
The rest of the OVA was enjoyable for me. Sometimes when I read people's opinions comparing the "sequel" animes with Bake, I can't help but think that Bake was hyped too much. Was is really that good? Yeah, it was better, I agree, but was it really that much better than Nise or Neko-Kuro? I can't make judgments based on the LNs (just reading Kizu now), but for the anime adaptions, while Nise felt way worse (content-wise) than Bake to me, Neko wasn't all that bad. I seriously think some people are ruining their own enjoyment of the series by putting Bake on a pedestal. Bake was pretty good, but that's it.
I can't make those judgements for the LN but having watched what's animated I never thought it was all that different at all writing style or content wise other than being just ever so slightly more subtle. Back then it had the benefit of being fairly fresh and unconventional which probably went a long way towards its popularity. Also it had to work to establish the franchise so it had a bit more to offer development wise in Bake but now that its a smash hit it seems to be about indulging itself and the audience as its primary goal. It doesnt have to work to win people over so much anymore and people know what to expect. Classic sequel syndrome really.
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Old 2013-01-02, 16:40   Link #77
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Hanekawa's family issues is one of the few cases when I think "it would be so simple to solve if only Bakemonogatari didn't happen".

Or in other words, Araragi would have banished the cat forever if only he had started dating Hanekawa.

Hanekawa needed a family she doesn't have. She hanged on to the flawed and abusive parents because that's all she had got. If she had ended up with Araragi, she would have gained a family legitimately.

But in the end, it is not meant to be. Hitagi struck first.
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Old 2013-01-02, 16:54   Link #78
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Folenfant View Post
I can't make those judgements for the LN but having watched what's animated I never thought it was all that different at all writing style or content wise other than being just ever so slightly more subtle. Back then it had the benefit of being fairly fresh and unconventional which probably went a long way towards its popularity. Also it had to work to establish the franchise so it had a bit more to offer development wise in Bake but now that its a smash hit it seems to be about indulging itself and the audience as its primary goal. It doesnt have to work to win people over so much anymore and people know what to expect. Classic sequel syndrome really.
No, that's not it. Nekomonogatari was certainly planned in advance, possibly before Nisio even started writing the series. It was heavily referenced in Bake. Maybe Nisio didn't know where to take the franchise after Bake, but Kizu and Neko Black were already set in stone.
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Old 2013-01-02, 16:58   Link #79
Romanticide
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Hanekawa's family issues is one of the few cases when I think "it would be so simple to solve if only Bakemonogatari didn't happen".

Or in other words, Araragi would have banished the cat forever if only he had started dating Hanekawa.

Hanekawa needed a family she doesn't have. She hanged on to the flawed and abusive parents because that's all she had got. If she had ended up with Araragi, she would have gained a family legitimately.
It wouldn't have worked that way, she'd still have stress from her "parents" and other things that would cause the cat to come back.
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Old 2013-01-02, 17:17   Link #80
Kaisos Erranon
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but now that its a smash hit it seems to be about indulging itself and the audience as its primary goal. It doesnt have to work to win people over so much anymore and people know what to expect. Classic sequel syndrome really.
This is from back when Nisio didn't really have a very clear idea what he wanted to do with the series. Wait for Zenmonogatari.
If nothing else, NekoWhite tries to do a lot more with Tsubasa's character and definitely succeeds in that regard.
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