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Old 2013-01-03, 16:18   Link #4801
Diveman
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What surprised me was the development on the Yuki's father arc,, because instead of being a sane person and react how a normal human would react, that is, have a proper conversation with yuki's dad (with her mother's help) about the whole thing. And not "let's solve everything by running away", I mean, come on it's 2013 already, that stuff is too old now.

Oh well, at least in the next chapter we'll see how shou x kento went along, I hope is something troll that makes me rage as well.
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Old 2013-01-03, 16:34   Link #4802
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Btw, the ending in Ichigo 100% is much better when it comes to the writing.
No, it's pretty much the same, if not worse. At least GE was aware of its shounen theme, and knew that even if it makes no sense Seiji needed to end with Yuki because otherwise it would be like he was running away from his "real feelings". Ichigo's author didn't know even the basics of writing a shonen manga, and it shows in the fact that Manaka got together with Nishino out of a misunderstanding. He was running away when he thought Aya had a boyfriend, he was being a coward (just like Seiji when he got together with Shou) but, unlike GE, the story in Ichigo never had Manaka overcoming that cowardice. I'm not saying Manaka getting together with Nishino didn't make sense character-wise; it made sense, they have good chemistry. The issue is that it was written in a way that goes against the theme of the genre.

GE's problem is execution at a character level, but at least the author never forgot that the relationship with Shou was the easy way out for Seiji, and that's a no-go in a shounen manga.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2013-01-03 at 16:51.
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Old 2013-01-03, 16:39   Link #4803
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^I have to disagree. You're talking about what's acceptable in a shounen manga and what's not. Frankly, that's why shounens suck. They're all caught up in these rules that they never break out of. They HAVE to have the first girl win, they HAVE to have the main character be weak and useless, they HAVE to turn the characters into idiots to continue the plot. As soon as you start forcing specific themes onto a genre, you stunt any kind of possible innovation.

All in all, it makes for horribly cliched and overused plots. GE fell victim to it. KNIM and Suzuka fell victim to it. And in the end, I think it hurts the genre more than anything.
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Old 2013-01-03, 16:45   Link #4804
Kazu-kun
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^That's the problem right there. You're talking about what's acceptable in a shounen manga and what's not. Frankly, that's why shounens suck. They're all caught up in these rules that they never break out of.
You can break the rules, but for that the author needs to come up with a different theme and develop it in a way that makes sense, which requires a level of writing skills most mangaka don't have. Also, let's not forget these manga are published in shounen mangazines, so they have to feel like shounen to the readers, hece the recurring themes and tropes.
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Old 2013-01-03, 16:52   Link #4805
KLGChaos
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You can make a perfectly good shounen manga and not have the first main girl win. You can have a character who's smart and savvy. You can have drama that's natural and realistic and is properly used to develop the characters without completely destroying them in the process. Heck, you can even have drama that doesn't focus on just the relationship. For example, having the parent of one of the main pair die and see how the aftermath brings them closer together as they seek comfort from each other-- stuff that happens in real life without the need for all the cheating and heart-breaking that is prevalent in most shounen dramas.

It would take some effort to properly develop a second girl, but it can be done and honestly, it would be a good way to get length out of the manga without the constant melodrama (or lack of any plot) that seems to pervade them after a certain point.
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:01   Link #4806
Kazu-kun
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^ You have no idea how much skill (and time) is required to make all that work, and still make it feel like a shounen manga. You probably shouldn't look for that kind of stuff in a shounen mangazine. Maybe you would have a better chance to find that sort of thing in a seinen mangazine. I don't know.
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:10   Link #4807
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
No, it's pretty much the same, if not worse. At least GE was aware of its shounen theme, and knew that even if it makes no sense Seiji needed to end with Yuki because otherwise it would be like he was running away from his "real feelings". Ichigo's author didn't know even the basics of writing a shonen manga, and it shows in the fact that Manaka got together with Nishino out of a misunderstanding. He was running away when he thought Aya had a boyfriend, he was being a coward (just like Seiji when he got together with Shou) but, unlike GE, the story in Ichigo never had Manaka overcoming that cowardice. I'm not saying Manaka getting together with Nishino didn't make sense character-wise; it made sense, they have good chemistry. The issue is that it was written in a way that goes against the theme of the genre.

GE's problem is execution at a character level, but at least the author never forgot that the relationship with Shou was the easy way out for Seiji, and that's a no-go in a shounen manga.
No but I don't care about shounen cliché theme. All I want is an interesting story. Futhermore, I'm talking about the writing here not who the main chara end up with. In the end, I'm sorry but for example this ast chapter is the epitom oif bad writing. Serioulsy, it makes you laugh intead of feeling happy.

Shou is the easy way out ? Not really, at frist she rejected him, then he fell in love with Yuki, then they brok up and Shou and him fell in love (during a short period). The mangaka could have end the manga here. It would have made sense and we could have Utsumi and the other helping Yuki without him falling in love with her once again.

Intead of that, the mangaka made Shou the easy way out not so long agao, when Utsumi realized once again (lol) that he loved Yuki. And after that, a lot of crap chpater with so many cliché events to make the UtsumiXYuki believeable once again (and of course, with so many cliché event, it sucks)
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:18   Link #4808
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
^ You have no idea how much skill (and time) is required to make all that work, and still make it feel like a shounen manga. You probably shouldn't look for that kind of stuff in a shounen mangazine. Maybe you would have a better chance to find that sort of thing in a seinen mangazine. I don't know.
That doesn't change the fact that Ichigo 100% was printed in Weekly Shounen Jump for 19 volumes and the mangaka hinted that it was fan input that made Nishino win, so I'm pretty sure shounen readers don't mind breaking the shounen tropes every once in a while. Frankly, with the recent crop of stereotypical shounen jump titles getting cancelled 15-20 chapters in, and something totally atypical like Assassination Classroom raking in the sales, I think Shounen Jump readers are ready for new manga to shake things up a bit.
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:28   Link #4809
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
That doesn't change the fact that Ichigo 100% was printed in Weekly Shounen Jump for 19 volumes and the mangaka hinted that it was fan input that made Nishino win
But Ichigo isn't a good example, because they made Nishino win at the cost of Manaka's characterization. It would have been different if the author had done it in a way that emphasizes Manaka's character growth, but that wasn't the case. It was the opposite.

All in all, I think subverting tropes and clichés is good as long as you don't compromise the theme and the character growth that comes attached to it. Ichigo did it wrong, and that's why even if GE is clinched as hell I still think it's better than Ichigo.


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Shou is the easy way out ? Not really
Go read the chapter when Seiji and Shou get together. The line at the end says "He chose the person who loves him instead of the one he loves". From that line you knew they wanted to make it clear he's running away, and that's a gigantic clue the relationship wasn't going to last. A shounen hero, at the end, has to choose the girl he loves, even if that girl doesn't want him, because his choice is a reflection of his courage.
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:33   Link #4810
Waven
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@Kusa-San:

I'm beginning to think you don't like cliches.

And tbh you are talking about who the Mc ends up with. What exactly would make it better writing to end the series when he got together with Shou? Shou didn't even have that much screentime and other issues were unresolved, how could you end it there as an author?

I'm sorry, your post reads exactly like a sour Shou fanboy reaction would. There's not even a clear reasoning.

I agree with KLGChaos and would go even further and say all genres get dull at some point but shoroms usually have a particularly limited time span.
Writing a shorom with no or even just a few cliches, however, tend not to work commercially. At the end of the day cliches exist because that's what the target audience unconsciously expects.
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:50   Link #4811
Kusa-San
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Uh not really, I said : "Btw, the ending in Ichigo 100% is much better when it comes to the writing. " The last chapter of Ichigo 100 is less cliché than the last last chapter of GE. Serioulsy, this chapter 155 is just so badly written that you can't feel anaything other than laughing a lot.

Now, yes, i think it would have been more interesting to have Utsumi endup with Shou because it woud have been nice too see something like in Ichigo 100% once again. Futhermore, I like the interaction when they were together.

But it doesn't mean that I was against an ending with Yuki but the way it has been done is "over the top".

Now about the ""He chose the person who loves him instead of the one he loves" for me it make thing even more interesting and also (for me), it was obvious that chapetr after chapter Ustumi was falling in love with Shou.
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Old 2013-01-03, 17:59   Link #4812
Kazu-kun
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Now about the ""He chose the person who loves him instead of the one he loves" for me it make thing even more interesting and also (for me), it was obvious that chapetr after chapter Ustumi was falling in love with Shou.
In a shounen manga, the chapter when the hero gets together with the girl is the most important. You'll know if that girl is the end game from the way they get together. If choosing that girl empathizes his courage, the girl is the end game. On the other hand, if it shows weakness in his heart, then the relationship isn't going to last.

Again, that line was there to make it clear it wasn't meant to be, even if there was good chemistry between them.
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Old 2013-01-04, 01:16   Link #4813
Master Chibi
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The only Good Ending makes me feel is how shitty it is to be a manga-ka.

They need to move entirely to digital or start adopting web comics or something where they're not shackled down by all this bullshit. I mean you have to be pretty god damn conceited to name your manga Good Ending and somehow not gag on your own fucking pencil to include it in the second to last chapter.
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Old 2013-01-04, 04:18   Link #4814
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
In a shounen manga, the chapter when the hero gets together with the girl is the most important. You'll know if that girl is the end game from the way they get together. If choosing that girl empathizes his courage, the girl is the end game. On the other hand, if it shows weakness in his heart, then the relationship isn't going to last.

Again, that line was there to make it clear it wasn't meant to be, even if there was good chemistry between them.
Considering the themes this manga played with and showed just getting together won't feel that good and complete by now. I mean we had plentful of images of Yuki having sex with non-hero and to lesser extent Shou-Usui so one would hope that the author would be able to provide those with the main pairing too, but probably waking up in the same bed is the best stuff you will get which would make it feel inferior and incomplete due to scenes shown before.
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Old 2013-01-04, 05:40   Link #4815
KLGChaos
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I agree with KLGChaos and would go even further and say all genres get dull at some point but shoroms usually have a particularly limited time span.
Writing a shorom with no or even just a few cliches, however, tend not to work commercially. At the end of the day cliches exist because that's what the target audience unconsciously expects.
This is true. I remember I used to love action series like Naruto, Bleach, HSDK, etc. Now, I struggle to read them unless they're something really special, as they all seem to reach a certain level and then lose momentum and start dragging. Bleach's second rescue arc was where it died for me, for Naruto, it's been this current arc. HSDK I felt lost it's way after the DofD arc.

And sadly, you're right about cliches. Audiences come to expect a certain thing and it's much easier to write already established themes than it is to be innovative. If it wasn't, we wouldn't suffer from sequel syndrome all the time in movies and video games. Shorom dramas and comedies both suffer from the same problems, just in different ways.

It's why I've come to enjoy a lot of Korean manhwa webcomics. The authors seem to have a bit more freedom to experiment. It doesn't always succeed and can turn off readers (like The Breaker: New Waves), but when it does, you can end up with something really good (like Green Boy).

I'm not giving up hope, though. In the video game industry and movies, there's been imaginative and innovative gems that pop up every now and then that defy genre conventions (games like Journey, Limbo, etc) and end up being something special. It'd be nice if a ShoRom could follow suit.
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Old 2013-01-04, 11:56   Link #4816
ragez2010
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Spoiler for cp 156:
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Old 2013-01-04, 13:05   Link #4817
cero_86
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Spoiler for 156 kinda sad:
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Old 2013-01-04, 13:30   Link #4818
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Spoiler for So:


Well again the Good Ending was just a soap opera in manga format. With the same retarded drama that gets worse the longer plot goes and same quick happy fix at the end. Though in soap operas they usually show intimate moments between the main couple and not just skip it right to the baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
This is true. I remember I used to love action series like Naruto, Bleach, HSDK, etc. Now, I struggle to read them unless they're something really special, as they all seem to reach a certain level and then lose momentum and start dragging. Bleach's second rescue arc was where it died for me, for Naruto, it's been this current arc. HSDK I felt lost it's way after the DofD arc.
Personally I think that OP doesnt have this limit. When I first started Op I thought I would drop it in 10 chapters or so due to weird art and humour but OP is still going strong though got so long. And I actually hate action shounens yet still enjoy One Piece.

Green Boy is good example of romance manga where the pairing is strong and author doesnt need to shove freaking drama every damn chapter to make the story flow. Green Boy main couple has much more chemistry than GE one ever did.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2013-01-04 at 13:43.
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Old 2013-01-04, 13:47   Link #4819
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
You can make a perfectly good shounen manga and not have the first main girl win.
First girl or not, it`s always the one who has the most development and influence with the protagonist, something different would feel like an ass pull and would not make sense.


Quote:
You can have a character who's smart and savvy. You can have drama that's natural and realistic and is properly used to develop the characters without completely destroying them in the process. Heck, you can even have drama that doesn't focus on just the relationship. For example, having the parent of one of the main pair die and see how the aftermath brings them closer together as they seek comfort from each other-- stuff that happens in real life without the need for all the cheating and heart-breaking that is prevalent in most shounen dramas.
I agree with that.

Quote:
It would take some effort to properly develop a second girl, but it can be done and honestly, it would be a good way to get length out of the manga without the constant melodrama (or lack of any plot) that seems to pervade them after a certain point.
The moment the sencond girl gets so much development that it would make sense for her to be the ending girl, she becomes the maingirl, simply because she would get the most development.

All in all I can say that you guys are reading the wrong genre if you don't want predigtable plots. It's like people going to MC Donalds and then complain that it tastes always the same. I mean realy, really???

Nearly every romace story and especially shounen romance stories are cliche and have always been predigtable and they will always be predigtable. There is absolutely nothing that was not there, tvtropes is your friend. But if you want a more mature approach to romance, read seinen romance stories.


Spoiler for Here is the raw to chapter 156 for people who still care:

Last edited by Dauerlutscher; 2013-01-04 at 14:04.
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Old 2013-01-04, 13:59   Link #4820
Velvetj
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Spoiler for 156:

Last edited by Velvetj; 2013-01-04 at 14:19.
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being good sucks, drama, kento boss, romance, shoukento, shounen, slice of life, yukiumi

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