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View Poll Results: Nekomonogatari Black Rating
Perfect 10 31 35.63%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 27 31.03%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 19.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.90%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.30%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.15%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 2.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.15%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-04, 05:32   Link #121
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
In what way would Araragi be superior to Hitagi? I'm guessing a number of events led you to that conclusion, but I can't remember any particular instance of him showing any type of superiority over Hitagi, nor him alluding at such a thing.
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
No... I don't think Koyomi is superior to Hitagi. It was Hitagi who asked him out and pushed him for an answer. In almost every single banter they have, Koyomi is pulled along her pace.

I think the bigger problem is that Tsubasa is incapable of expressing her emotions. There's no way Koyomi can have a relationship based on emotions like love with a person who bottles away every emotion she has. It was mentioned more than once how the way she reacts to her family was repulsive and revolting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ Likewise. For every exchange, very rarely does Koyomi become a tsukkomi. He's always the boke.



IIRC, the best example of an emotion Tsubasa can portray is ah, darn it. Neko Black really destroyed Tsubasa's credibility in portraying true emotion. Now, I have to wonder if the smiles and giggles she had portrayed in Bake ever had a hint of sincerity... or all of those are "logical responses to a particular stimulus".

If those emotions are actually true, then is it possible that Koyomi was the only one who was able to make her "human" again?
Unfortunately, as she sorts out her feelings for Koyomi, the infamous "fall from grace the stairs" scene happened, and she lost all of her chances to get Koyomi's affection.
Koyomi is immortal, stronger, desired by half a dozen girls, has a functional relationship with all his family, a big bro (->Oshino), and is always capable of resolving any impossible problem "thrown" at him without resorting to the help of others... all these from Hitagi's perspective, who has to resort in RPing the dominant member of the couple to balance things out in their relationship, because unlike every other character she has no confidence in herself, and is the only "normal" one (at least as far as I have read, which isn't all that much).

As for examples, the start of Nise- when he interrupted her silly game to check on his family... another is the end of TV-Bake- where not only read through her proposition, but also was a turning point in their relationship, because he took over the initiative again from her.

I can see why most think Hitagi is driving the relationship, but that is just on the surface.
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Old 2013-01-04, 06:10   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Spoiler for Follow-up on comparison:
Spoiler for Follow up Response:
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Old 2013-01-04, 08:57   Link #123
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There was!? Where!?
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:32   Link #124
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Episode 4.

Araragi's plan to get rid of the cat was incredibly reckless and came at a complete disregard for his own life, as usual. He would have died if Shinobu hadn't intervened, and he wouldn't have minded. On the contrary, the thought of dying for Hanekawa made him happy. In spite of this, he still couldn't save her. Because she is the only one who can save herself.

The reveal that Hanekawa was in control all along was interesting. She was using the cat to run away from her problems, which is not a good solution by any means. I can't blame her for doing that, however. If anything, that proves she is actually human, albeit a very abnormal one.

The ending tied well into Bakemonogatari. The way I understood it, Araragi's love for Hanekawa didn't count as his first love because the person he was in love with (the mask Hanekawa wore) didn't exist. His feelings toward the real Hanekawa are more complicated. Even so, he probably wouldn't have rejected her if she had confessed to him before Senjougahara. Not sure their relationship would have been healthy though.
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Old 2013-01-04, 09:59   Link #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Episode 4.

Araragi's plan to get rid of the cat was incredibly reckless and came at a complete disregard for his own life, as usual. He would have died if Shinobu hadn't intervened, and he wouldn't have minded. On the contrary, the thought of dying for Hanekawa made him happy. In spite of this, he still couldn't save her. Because she is the only one who can save herself.

The reveal that Hanekawa was in control all along was interesting. She was using the cat to run away from her problems, which is not a good solution by any means. I can't blame her for doing that, however. If anything, that proves she is actually human, albeit a very abnormal one.

The ending tied well into Bakemonogatari. The way I understood it, Araragi's love for Hanekawa didn't count as his first love because the person he was in love with (the mask Hanekawa wore) didn't exist. His feelings toward the real Hanekawa are more complicated. Even so, he probably wouldn't have rejected her if she had confessed to him before Senjougahara. Not sure their relationship would have been healthy though.
It's been a a few days since I watched it, and my Japanese are pretty bad, but to my understanding Tsubasa didn't use, but let the cat resolve her problems
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Old 2013-01-04, 10:36   Link #126
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ Likewise. For every exchange, very rarely does Koyomi become a tsukkomi. He's always the boke.
That's not true, in many cases the straight man is Araragi. Even Tsukihi said that the straight man was mainly his thing. It depends on who the other character is, though. I think Hanekawa and Tsukihi are almost never the funny man.
Quote:
IIRC, the best example of an emotion Tsubasa can portray is ah, darn it. Neko Black really destroyed Tsubasa's credibility in portraying true emotion. Now, I have to wonder if the smiles and giggles she had portrayed in Bake ever had a hint of sincerity... or all of those are "logical responses to a particular stimulus".
You could say Hanekawa gets multiple impulses from the events. For example, Hanekawa had to bury the cat, yet she would have rather not. In a way, she is authentic because she still obeys one of her impulses; in another way, she is not authentic because she doesn't obey to certain impulses. Some could consider this as lying, though it is something different.

Hanekawa does have genuine emotions. For example, she was distressed at Araragi saving another girl (Senjougahara) beside her. Simply, the way she expressed was very indirect: she told Araragi her girlfriend wouldn't have liked him to get close to another girl.

The problem of Hanekawa, more than her emotions, lies in the fact she is gifted and her thoughts are much more complicated than an average person.
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The ending tied well into Bakemonogatari. The way I understood it, Araragi's love for Hanekawa didn't count as his first love because the person he was in love with (the mask Hanekawa wore) didn't exist.
It didn't count as his first love because he chose expressely not to consider it love.

Just in case, I will explain that the original used a Japanese expression, "wearing a cat". That means "feigning innocence". Some translated it as "wearing a facade" (brilliant translation in its own way), but ultimately it only refers to how the blame is shifted away on the supernatural cat.

The Hanekawa Araragi knew (though he admitted he didn't know much of her) was the real deal, as proved from the fact that she did go to save him when he mailed her for help. He just liked Hanekawa better when she was still trying to do her best. The fake in this case would be cat Hanekawa.
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Old 2013-01-04, 11:12   Link #127
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The only thing who bothered me "You're going to live as that person for your whole life!" "You can't change that" "You were born as that person , you grew up into that person"

My answer : - People can change -
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Old 2013-01-04, 11:22   Link #128
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
The only thing who bothered me "You're going to live as that person for your whole life!" "You can't change that" "You were born as that person , you grew up into that person"

My answer : - People can change -
Let's face it, realistically speaking it is not that easy. It is as hard as to stop smoking. The point of the dialogue was to make Hanekawa go back to her usual self, though, anything else would have been counterproductive.
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Old 2013-01-04, 12:29   Link #129
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
That's not true, in many cases the straight man is Araragi. Even Tsukihi said that the straight man was mainly his thing. It depends on who the other character is, though. I think Hanekawa and Tsukihi are almost never the funny man.
You could say Hanekawa gets multiple impulses from the events. For example, Hanekawa had to bury the cat, yet she would have rather not. In a way, she is authentic because she still obeys one of her impulses; in another way, she is not authentic because she doesn't obey to certain impulses. Some could consider this as lying, though it is something different.

Hanekawa does have genuine emotions. For example, she was distressed at Araragi saving another girl (Senjougahara) beside her. Simply, the way she expressed was very indirect: she told Araragi her girlfriend wouldn't have liked him to get close to another girl.

The problem of Hanekawa, more than her emotions, lies in the fact she is gifted and her thoughts are much more complicated than an average person.
It didn't count as his first love because he chose expressely not to consider it love.
It's a given that Hanekawa has emotions, otherwise she would be incapable of liking Araragi.

The problem is that she cannot express certain emotions as directly as Senjougahara can. I'm sure you have read Neko White, so you already know the complaints raised against her personality. Whether it's a force of habit or her own rational decision or the Kaii influencing her, her ability to suppress any "negative" emotion is too strong.

It's like a soldier seeing a close comrade dying in front of him during wartime. The soldier has to set aside crying and mourning for his fallen comrade until after the battle is over. If the surviving soldier was Hanekawa, she would go beyond that and never cry for the fallen comrade even after wartime is over because of the belief that she must "be strong".

Going back to the cat burial, the "normal" impulse that would say "it's too troublesome" and make people hesitate to bury the cat is not something I think affects Hanekawa. It's not so much that she doesn't have it as it's that she unconsciously says "feeling this way is not an option." She rules out feeling that way, therefore on the surface she can bury the cat with no evidence of hesitation.
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Old 2013-01-04, 14:09   Link #130
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It's been a a few days since I watched it, and my Japanese are pretty bad, but to my understanding Tsubasa didn't use, but let the cat resolve her problems
No, she was in complete control ever since she finished draining her parents. The cat tried to leave after that, but she pulled it back into her and used its power for herself. She wasn't letting the cat do anything, and honestly at this point the cat doesn't even exist anymore. Just like the old story, she was never possessed in the first place. She just took a kaii's power and used it as an excuse to do what she wanted. There was never any split personality, just acting.
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Old 2013-01-04, 14:22   Link #131
zeando
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
No, she was in complete control ever since she finished draining her parents. The cat tried to leave after that, but she pulled it back into her and used its power for herself. She wasn't letting the cat do anything, and honestly at this point the cat doesn't even exist anymore. Just like the old story, she was never possessed in the first place. She just took a kaii's power and used it as an excuse to do what she wanted. There was never any split personality, just acting.
during golden week, maybe
after she forgot about it, it was indeed split personality, or else she should have had memories about her time as cat, which wasn't the case after golden week
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Old 2013-01-04, 14:31   Link #132
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
No, she was in complete control ever since she finished draining her parents. The cat tried to leave after that, but she pulled it back into her and used its power for herself. She wasn't letting the cat do anything, and honestly at this point the cat doesn't even exist anymore. Just like the old story, she was never possessed in the first place. She just took a kaii's power and used it as an excuse to do what she wanted. There was never any split personality, just acting.
No... there clearly was a Kaii personality, but during Golden Week Hanekawa took over after her parents were already attacked.
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Old 2013-01-04, 15:03   Link #133
Azuma Denton
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Just finished this 2-hour special after waiting for days so i can watch all in one go...

1. The opening is beautiful. It is arranged artistically and suits the songs.
2. Gah, i really hate Araragi interaction with his sister, especially with Tsukihi. Chessy and pointless, IMO...
3. Oshino Meme, glad to see him again in Monogatari. This guy character is one reason why Monogatari series enjoyable. It just feels different when Koyomi discussing about oddities without him around in Nisemonogatari.
4. Inconsistency with flash back scenes in Bakemonogatari Tsubasa Cat. While kinda understand it, because when Bakemonogatari is aired, NisioIsin not writing Nekomonogatari yet. And i feel those flash back scenes is more dramatic than this one.
5. Good characterization of Hanekawa. NisioIsin did a good job in writing a deep background story regarding Hanekawa and her family.
6. The ending animation is quite different from Bake and Nise. Simple...


Overall, i enjoyed Nekomongatari (Kuro) story. Much more than i enjoy Nise. But still not on par with Bakemonogatari Tsubasa Cat arc IMO. *no Hitagi sob sob...


Awaits the second part of Monogatari story.
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Old 2013-01-04, 15:24   Link #134
Kaoru Chujo
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I'm only able to scrape out a few minutes here and there to watch anime right now, but what a joy to see Shinbou returning in full form. Beautiful, strange, and shallow in a deep way (or is that deep in a shallow way?). The interactions with sisters have become even more weird and wonderfully bizarre. Questionable in a good way, lol. And the idea that no-one is completely good is kind of reassuring, for me.
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Old 2013-01-04, 16:39   Link #135
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
No... there clearly was a Kaii personality, but during Golden Week Hanekawa took over after her parents were already attacked.
We never saw it though. Araragi only met her after she took over, so the kaii personality never showed up on screen.

Obviously things changed after the ending of this story though. The Kaii Killer sword separating them and all that. Well, afterward she made her own "modern kaii" so the old cat still doesn't exist, but whatever-it-is is separate from her now, which it wasn't during Golden Week.
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Old 2013-01-04, 19:29   Link #136
Reckoner
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Well finally got to watch parts 2-4 and I'll just say I would like to pretend that part 1 didn't exist. Much Much much better. This is what I have come to expect from this franchise. Not that garbage introduction we got at the beginning. Here's to hoping Kizu and season 2 is good.
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Old 2013-01-04, 19:52   Link #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
No, she was in complete control ever since she finished draining her parents. The cat tried to leave after that, but she pulled it back into her and used its power for herself. She wasn't letting the cat do anything, and honestly at this point the cat doesn't even exist anymore. Just like the old story, she was never possessed in the first place. She just took a kaii's power and used it as an excuse to do what she wanted. There was never any split personality, just acting.
I don't remember this, but I will give it a second watch, this time with a pause function, so I won't miss dialogue because of me smoking
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Old 2013-01-04, 21:45   Link #138
HandofFate
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Shinobu so good.
Araragi hiding the sword in his body was pretty badass. My opinion of hanakawa as a character is slightly better, but her character standing compared to the others I don't think is going to change much.
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Old 2013-01-04, 22:03   Link #139
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Good stuff. Highly entertaining in many ways, as usual with this franchise. I would have a hard time fighting a girl with cat ears in sexy lingerie too, haha.

I look forward to the next season.
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Old 2013-01-04, 23:34   Link #140
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so was there any reason why shinobu wanted the helmet?
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