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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 8 18.18%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 10 22.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 43.18%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 11.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 4.55%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-04, 14:53   Link #81
felix
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Originally Posted by Rakshasa View Post
That's bound to work; living like tigers that roam around their territory and only meet to mate once a year or so?

And how would you keep people away from each other? Tell them to stay within a small plot of land and never move around?

Loneliness messes up people's minds in really bad ways.
I was thinking religious monk style solitude; I'm unfamiliar with the whole tiger version can you explain?

And they wouldn't have to be completely alone, just no more then a small family.
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Old 2013-01-04, 15:19   Link #82
kuromitsu
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I was thinking religious monk style solitude; I'm unfamiliar with the whole tiger version can you explain?
I think they meant that tigers are solitary animals, they live alone except when a female is raising cubs. Male and female meet only to mate.

(Apropos big cats, ep 14 made me wish the anime had made the killer kitties more cat-like... aww, kitties!)

Anyway, humans are social creatures, there's a reason why every single human culture ever gravitates toward groups, and for that matter this is true not only for humans but also our nearest relatives (*cough*bonobos*cough*). We're relatively weak, slow to mature, our children are completely defenseless and unable to fend for themselves for at least 10 years (they can't even walk for a ridiculously long time!), etc. etc. etc. This is part of what makes us human. So we have a built-in need for cooperation in order for the species to survive.

For that matter, how do you expect the species to survive with groups in complete isolation? Genetic diversity is pretty important, and if you want that, and don't want to go to war with the nearby families every time you feel the need to procreate, you pretty much have to cooperate. And if you're willing to do that you might as well admit it makes more sense to live in a society.
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Old 2013-01-04, 15:51   Link #83
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I'm not saying I have some complete solution; what I'm saying is that the nature of their problem is centered around social interaction. You're giving me all these reasons that would apply to some really primitive human, but they're not primitive and not entirely human. Their situation is like say that of a group of tigers, since we were talking about them, that are trying to use our social system; it just doesn't work and it's waste to try and make it work. They have the power to change their very DNA should they pursue it, and just one child is able to decimate a small army, while being barely able to stand—pretty sure they'd be fine.

Even their solution is just a another version of what I described; it's application just makes it more familiar.

There are sugar coated versions too, for example: what if there was a law that nobody could be near more then one other person in a range of several kilometers.

Or a romantic version if you like: the entire society is focused on the warrior code and constantly fight each other, with the pupil interacting with his master or after leaving his master, his husband/wife, and nobody else. When a child is born the mother or father become their master and the other goes on their way.

Better then the whole pruning for the sake of clinging to, what is in their world, an obsolete system that's just rotting away. But don't get me wrong, I'm sure if something were to happen to our society to cause the current system to become a handicap (ai, alien contact, immortality, whatnot), we would still cling hopelessly to it too, just as we cling to obsolete laws like the patent laws (created in an age were knowledge was precious and advances slow, to encourage sharing).
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:16   Link #84
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Ep 14 has already aired, won't we get a topic for it?

(I just want to post screencaps of kitties...)
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:39   Link #85
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I'm not saying I have some complete solution; what I'm saying is that the nature of their problem is centered around social interaction.
Not quite, at least not the way you seem to think. Theirs is a relatively complex situation that the anime hasn't gotten around to show in full yet, though we've already had hints (re: the little glimpses of history in the early episodes). Regarding that, and the theory about what causes gouma and akki to develop in the first place, I'm not sure social isolation would be a good solution to anything. At the best it would be just treating the symptoms. At best. Also, you seem to be forgetting about akki and gouma and the death feedback... but anyway, let's just suppose they're not an issue for some reason.

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You're giving me all these reasons that would apply to some really primitive human, but they're not primitive and not entirely human.
Still, they have to eat, to lodge, to clothe themselves, to procreate and generally survive as long as possible. Their power is awesome but it's not like they can conjure food and clothes and children and medicine out of the blue. Bakenezumi would be no help because of reasons the show is just about to really get into.

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There are sugar coated versions too, for example: what if there was a law that nobody could be near more then one other person in a range of several kilometers.
And how would you make sure people respect this law? Like it or not, humans, even Shinsekai yori's humans, have evolved to be deeply social. Changing that is pretty much going against human nature. Also, food, lodging, clothing...

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Or a romantic version if you like: the entire society is focused on the warrior code and constantly fight each other, with the pupil interacting with his master or after leaving his master, his husband/wife, and nobody else. When a child is born the mother or father become their master and the other goes on their way.
So how do the master and the pupil even meet? How do people get a wife/husband, just raid a neighboring house and steal the women? What happens to children, are they kicked out of the family when they are old enough? If the society is based on constant fighting, how do you make sure people won't team up to gain advantage over others? Also, who grows the food, who makes clothes, who heals the sick, etc? Who is responsible for keeping everyone in line? And so on and so forth.

Tigers can go around being solitary partly because they have evolved that way, and partly because, being animals, they have few and simple needs and not a particularly complex mind (from what we can tell, anyway). Food and water, offsprings, and surviving to produce as many offsprings as possible. Humans, though? Not really on the same level...

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Better then the whole pruning for the sake of clinging to, what is in their world, an obsolete system that's just rotting away.
They're not clinging to a system, they're clinging to 1) human civilization, 2) the survival of humans as we/they know them. Perhaps it's a futile struggle, but what would you have them do, throw up their arms and go "whatever, we give up, let's just go play tigers in the forest"?


Btw, ep 14 has already aired, won't we get a topic for it?

(I just want to post screencaps of kitties...)

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-04 at 18:06.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:00   Link #86
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There are sugar coated versions too, for example: what if there was a law that nobody could be near more then one other person in a range of several kilometers.
What exactly do you think laws are?

We've long since moved away from the old way of thinking that laws of nature rule the universe, they are social constructs and mean little if you're isolated.

Also, where is ep. 14 topic, I want to discuss the content.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:02   Link #87
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Threads up.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:39   Link #88
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We've long since moved away from the old way of thinking that laws of nature rule the universe, they are social constructs and mean little if you're isolated.
Only because you can't compare it with the social constructs you live in doesn't mean it's impossible. It's this same one track thinking that denied every commodity we now take for granted because it went against the "traditional wisdom" of the time. And yet here we are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu
And how would you make sure people respect this law? Like it or not, humans, even Shinsekai yori's humans, have evolved to be deeply social. Changing that is pretty much going against human nature. Also, food, lodging, clothing...
They can basically control the weather and create their own little space. All those things become trivial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu
They're not clinging to a system, they're clinging to 1) human civilization, 2) the survival of humans as we/they know them.
That's still clinging to their old obsolete ways and avoiding change. If the survival of humans is the goal then any system that guarantees that survival is good enough. Social interaction can just move from there. If you get stuck in the mud, it's typically wise to just pull back, and find a different route. Struggling will just mean you'll get permanently stuck; but guess in the case of the people in the series, they are already permanently stuck, to some extent.

As for the whole "human civilization" argument, frankly I think we all should be a little bit more humble about it. Who's to say if history went some different way we wouldn't have seen an even more technologically and socially advanced civilization then what we have now.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu
And how would you make sure people respect this law?
You don't have to. The idea is of re-inventing their common sense. Just as you don't drown yourself into a well, don't cover yourself in fire and all that, the common sense here would be don't form permanent groups. Technically the people that form groups would just end up dieing because of fiends or karma demons. If someone manages to find a way to form permanent groups and deal with those two issues then it's all for the best too. Just like with the romans, culture and technology can go and will come back... human lives don't. How their current system doesn't just implode on itself is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu
So how do the master and the pupil even meet? How do people get a wife/husband, just raid a neighboring house and steal the women? What happens to children, are they kicked out of the family when they are old enough? If the society is based on constant fighting, how do you make sure people won't team up to gain advantage over others? Also, who grows the food, who makes clothes, who heals the sick, etc? Who is responsible for keeping everyone in line? And so on and so forth.
Like I keep saying, I only gave this as an example to illustrate the problem, but so you don't think I'm ignoring your other questions there, (just as an example) master = parent, ritual duels (as many people as you like), every child gets raised by one of the parents, technically they could just stay with their master until he found some wife somewhere. Never thought about the team up part, who knows, guess you team up could just be considered a violation and you'd be marked for death by everyone else. Hunting; farming is semi-inefficiency anyway in that kind of society. You really think they can't make their own clothes? You don't heal the sick—though I guess they could tend to each other after combat or something. Nobody is responsible, but if anyone manages, then that would imply they manage to solve all the karma demon and whatnot.

Regarding the two parts of your post I didn't answer; I'll wait and see and answer later, since I'm guessing you know something about the series itself I don't.
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Old 2013-01-04, 20:18   Link #89
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Only because you can't compare it with the social constructs you live in doesn't mean it's impossible. It's this same one track thinking that denied every commodity we now take for granted because it went against the "traditional wisdom" of the time. And yet here we are...
You're comparing apples and oranges, though. (Also what "every commodity"? We've had many of those for a long time, just not in the exact same way due to various reasons such as scientific development, etc.) What you're expecting them to do is not just apply some changes in their lifestyle, it's deciding to throw away something's been engraved in them for thousands of years of human civilization, and millions of years of human evolution, to discard something that's integral to human nature as we know it... and for what exactly? (I mean, supposing that it was even possible.)

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They can basically control the weather and create their own little space. All those things become trivial.
No, they can't? It's not like they have the superpower of "I can do whatever I want"... For one, it's not like everyone has the same amount of power and talent. You're drawing conclusions based on watching special people do special things. But as we've seen before, not everyone is like them, most people are not on their level. Which leads to point two, what do you intend to do with people like Reiko who can't control their power? Three, it's not like they can use their power in any way they like, it needs concentration and it affects the user's mental and physical state. (Remember how Satoru was barely able to stand after using so much of his power?) And four, a single gouma or akki would basically turn your theory upside down.

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As for the whole "human civilization" argument, frankly I think we all should be a little bit more humble about it. Who's to say if history went some different way we wouldn't have seen an even more technologically and socially advanced civilization then what we have now.
But it didn't go a different way... And fyi I'm not talking about "our" civilization, I'm talking about "humans staying humans" in general.

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You don't have to. The idea is of re-inventing their common sense. Just as you don't drown yourself into a well, don't cover yourself in fire and all that, the common sense here would be don't form permanent groups.
This is the kind of thinking that makes sense on paper, but falls apart when you try to apply it to real life...

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Technically the people that form groups would just end up dieing because of fiends or karma demons.
Because... why exactly? o_o) And what guarantees that solitary people won't snap and seek out other people and murder them out of sheer paranoia? (I mean, the society you're suggesting is based on "OMG DON'T COME NEAR ME, DO YOU WANT TO KILL ME") And that's just an example.

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Like I keep saying, I only gave this as an example to illustrate the problem, but so you don't think I'm ignoring your other questions there, (just as an example) master = parent, ritual duels (as many people as you like), every child gets raised by one of the parents, technically they could just stay with their master until he found some wife somewhere. Never thought about the team up part, who knows, guess you team up could just be considered a violation and you'd be marked for death by everyone else.
But by all this you're describing a community. People bound by commonly accepted rules to facilitate life (in whatever way), social interaction... And in any case, the entire thing falls apart the moment someone says "to hell with this, I do whatever I want". (To, again, say nothing of akki and gouma. Or the death feedback and aggression limiter.) If the people are sane enough to have ritual duels and master/pupil relationships and such it's a no-brainer that people would realize that teaming up would put them in advantage.

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Hunting; farming is semi-inefficiency anyway in that kind of society. You really think they can't make their own clothes? You don't heal the sick—though I guess they could tend to each other after combat or something. Nobody is responsible, but if anyone manages, then that would imply they manage to solve all the karma demon and whatnot.
As for farming and such, not really, what do you think they use the bakenezumi for? And as for hunting, good luck going out on your own and finding a prey animal that's trying to hide from you. And no, the akki and gouma issue wouldn't be solved by this, what makes you think that?

And you say "they manage to solve"... who are "they"? Again you're describing something that wouldn't happen without some sort of cooperation.
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Old 2013-01-04, 21:16   Link #90
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I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying living outside a large community would somehow not lead to karma demons and such, what I'm saying is that when the incidents would happen their effects wouldn't be nearly as severe (at least the karma demons would be somewhat contained) and fiends are less likely to happen because for them to exhibit the symptoms stress induced by a large community of people seems to be a requirement. The problem here is they are all walking nukes. Until they figure out (though more lets say "humane" means) how to live with each other with out betting their entire extinction should one of them lose it, it's much safer and worthwhile to just keep to distant relations and make only temporary contact rather then stay in a permanent large community ensuring maximum damage.

Living in a small group or traveling as nomads isn't so bad when the alternative is ritual sacrifice of sorts and potential to kill 1000 people (family, friends, etc) in one fell swoop. If they went to 2% of their population then one would assume the only reason 2% didn't go to 0% was merely because they became spaced out enough and the communities small enough to ensure they wouldn't just die in a year. If we were to scale the entire village up, how big would it have to be before it ran the risk of generating too many ticking time bombs. Given what we know of the "past" it only takes 0.2% to apparently kill 98%.

As the series pointed out itself, it's not monsters, famine, or shelter that's the great enemy of humans, it's humans themselves. In their case, it's been exaggerated to the point everything else just doesn't even come close.

Even if my idea of their problem is wrong, they're still too foolish to believe they are still part, or can function, by the very society they completely destroyed.

Quote:
What you're expecting them to do is not just apply some changes in their lifestyle, it's deciding to throw away something's been engraved in them for thousands of years of human civilization, and millions of years of human evolution, to discard something that's integral to human nature as we know it...
Actually city life being "the life" is something quite recent. Our ancestors didn't really go "hunting animals" to "forming cities." Cities for the longest time were mostly these giant trade centers, and formed almost exclusive only near rivers or some very important seat of power (such as Rome). Living in extremely large close groups has only been possible due to revolution in architecture, economic stability, and so on. Unfortunately while the city state always hold more power then a group of rural settlements banding together, the city is something that needs a lot of infrastructure to function (not resources, it's pretty efficient about that, just infrastructure). They may have the infrastructure in the series (god knows how), but their condition means they also have the means to completely unbalance it in a day; it's very risky. With out infrastructure you're better having the individuals of the society form smaller groups because while overall the city is more efficient at consuming resources the individual is more efficient at sustaining himself. (Obviously trade is possible regardless of what system you adopt, be it large or small.)

Anyway, I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this. The problem here is how we both view society, it's worth and what makes us human. To me, working together and forming large groups, has plenty to do with being human but is not what makes us unique as humans; in fact that's what most animal species do, some even completely evolved towards this—why would I thus think the fact we form large groups makes us special; in that respect ants beat us in every way.
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Old 2013-01-04, 23:00   Link #91
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This episode offered nothing new but only reiterated the remaining childrens' suspicions that they're being targeted; at least, the children that saw the members of the Education Board releasing the nekodamashi when Shun went missing.

Definitely, Saki will be spared, that's why I honestly believe, because Satoru's grandmother got convinced that the former is so well balanced in both her mental state and manipulation of Cantus; the grandmother is going to push the strings and all influence so as to have Saki's life spared so as in a nearby future Saki inherits the grandmother's position as head of the Ethics and Virtue Comittee for the village's sake.

Mamoru and the rest, definitely, as we saw in this episode they are not going to get so lucky given that they have stuck their noses too deeply into the villages' secrets; let us not forget about the incident from that summer camp two years into the past.
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Old 2013-01-05, 15:43   Link #92
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Sorry, felix, but I'm with kuromitsu on this one.

In a society where each and every human being is a walking nuclear weapon in his/her destructive capability, I would say that the two most important things by far are...

1) Properly raising/socializing children.

2) Law enforcement.

And sure enough, this society focuses heavily around both of these two things.


Now, what is tremendously helpful in properly raising/socializing children, and engaging in law enforcement? Social groups.

To have any meaningful degree of law enforcement, you need at least a village of shared customs, laws, and/or regulations.

And while I don't entirely agree with the old adage of "It takes a village to raise a child", I think that it's generally better to have many people involved in a child's raising than just a parent/legal guardian or two.


If you have thousands of small families scattered about the Japanese countryside, you're going to cause the following problems:

1. Alienation. People will feel alienated from non-related peers, and hence distrustful of them. This is a natural repercussion of never really mixing with non-related peers.

2. You're pretty much begging for loads of "The Hatfields vs. The McCoys" situations. That's definitely not good.

3. Everybody is essentially "home-schooled". But not all parents have the skills and aptitudes necessary to make good teachers in addition to being good parents. So many children would suffer educationally in your proposed system, with the ultimate result being that humanity would decline even further with steadily less and less practical scientific knowledge.

4. I think you overestimate the practical capabilities of most Cantus-using humans here. We're not talking about Superman X 70,000 here. For example, it's a safe assumption that Maria can't fly (why else would she bother with the whole "hop and float, hop and float" manner of movement?) I also get the impression that Cantus-using humans have limited control over the weather (that's a pretty stark Winter everybody is dealing with in the anime right now; if there were many high-level weather controllers amongst the Cantus-users I'm inclined to think this wouldn't be the case). Taking all of this into consideration, I'm not sure if every Cantus-using human could be trusted to take care of their own basic physical needs when it comes to food, shelter, and clothing. So there remains obvious benefits to these humans continuing to organize in groups that form villages and towns.


So on the whole, I think that social groups are still to humanity's benefit in the world of Shin Sekai Yori.

Now, that being said, I think having widely-spread apart villages would certainly be better than having all remaining humans living in one place together. By having a dozen or more widely-spaced apart villages, you can mitigate the effects of any lone disaster.

Ideally, I think it would be best if you had maybe 70 villages of approximately 1,000 people each, with these villages spread apart as much as possible. I grew up in a town of about 1,000 people, and that's enough for decent socialization, I think.
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Old 2013-01-05, 15:48   Link #93
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Then do you agree with the whole hypnosis and kill them while their young philosophy? Because that's the extent of their police force.
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Old 2013-01-05, 15:57   Link #94
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Then do you agree with the whole hypnosis and kill them while their young philosophy? Because that's the extent of their police force.
Obviously it's not good, in a moral sense. But from a strictly pragmatic perspective, I have a hard time coming up with anything better.

If we took how the society of Shin Sekai Yori functions and put it up against your suggestion, and ran a sort of 200 year test on both approaches, I honestly think that your approach would set humanity further back than what we have right now in Shin Sekai Yori. I definitely respect where you're coming from here, but I really do think that long-term it's the less effective approach to take.
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Old 2013-01-05, 16:23   Link #95
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Is it? "Freedom" has brought more to the table then thousands of years of control ever did. And people were living in groups for generations, yet it was only when they gain some degree of freedom though either plentiful food (via something like the Neil) or some other advent, that they were ever able to achieve anything. The argument you're posing is that because they have their system they can maintain their society, but can it be considered a society while they have their system? and can it ever grow beyond their system? From my point of view it's nothing more then a very sophisticated jail, even for the "good" inhabitants. This caged bird status doesn't seem to allow for much of anything because while from a certain perspective you could say they are working together, what they really are is limited to working together in very confined group and space. I don't call that kind of system a society; it's at best a hospital. There has to be better ways of dealing with it.
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Old 2013-01-05, 16:40   Link #96
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Is it? "Freedom" has brought more to the table then thousands of years of control ever did.
Freedom without even a semblance of civilization will accomplish nothing. All of the greatest human achievements required groups of people to help make it happen. Even the great playwrights, artists, scientists, inventors, architects, etc... were only able to accomplish anything of lasting value because they had a social/cultural context that could both help inspire their creations and also give them a society that would be benefited by those creations.

What you're suggesting is little more than complete anarchy, a world that would make even Mad Max seem like a paragon of ordered society by comparison. A world like that could never create anything of lasting value, imo. Why, even basic historical records would eventually be entirely lost for most people as there would be nothing to perpetuate them in an organized fashion. At least the world of Shin Sekai Yori can speak of nuclear weapons with people not being totally flabbergasted by it.


Quote:
The argument you're posing is that because they have their system they can maintain their society, but can it be considered a society while they have their system? and can it ever grow beyond their system? From my point of view it's nothing more then a very sophisticated jail, even for the "good" inhabitants.
It's arguably a jail for kids. But is it a jail for adults? We haven't really seen what adult life is like in this society.


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I don't call that kind of system a society; it's at best a hospital. There has to be better ways of dealing with it.
I have yet to see someone suggest a better way.
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Old 2013-01-05, 17:13   Link #97
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It's arguably a jail for kids. But is it a jail for adults? We haven't really seen what adult life is like in this society.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R
I have yet to see someone suggest a better way.
That doesn't justify it.
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Old 2013-01-05, 17:19   Link #98
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Fair enough.

That doesn't justify it.
I agree.

Shin Sekai Yori is the classic "no win" scenario.
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