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Old 2013-01-04, 16:02   Link #2381
Sansker
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Arrogant? No really, but irrelevant in any case. And if that was your point then I guess discussion on that matter will leave us to another discussion about what the author can and cannot do. Besides you can’t really “correct” an opinion, being this one express once or several times don’t really matter. The idea of “correct” others opinion can be arrogant as well. And the questions are right here on this page. You ask me how to justify the introduction about a new magic style here and I say nothing, then you ask me again and I did respond keep the topic over the same matter as a result.

About battles and wars we do have examples of forces that lose several battles and wins wars. One of my favorites is the war Rome had with the king Pyrrhus of Epirus. The king did win all battles and yet was force to retreat back to his country. So there is that. And I know tactics are good, I just say that sometimes other factors might come in to play on a setting like this one. And AI that can react, I really don’t know because it seems you can make a device in your house so with better resources who knows what could happen?

And I can’t be “sanctimonious” because I didn’t even knew that word existed until I checked on Google.
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:38   Link #2382
Keroko
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On the subject of Sieg, it seems from this chapter she has some sort of "berserk button" or "uncontrollable magic." That goes a long way to explain why she chooses to live alone in a tent in the woods when she has a kind rich friend to hang out with. It also gives us a hint why she dropped out so suddenly in the last tournament.

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So there aren’t invisible spells. Barrier Jackets are very visible. And yes, you can make it stronger or weaker but I do believe is rare to see a particularly strong Barrier Jacket because of the mana it will need to maintain them in combat. All of the Barrier Jackets seems to share similar resistance. But maybe Sieg could have one, I am not sure. Still a little force when last time I did see Einhart hitting her and making actual damage without destroying the Barrier Jacket, so what the hell?
If you want invisible defense spells, Vivio's fight with Miura has them. While on barrier jackets, there are many sources, in particular the DVD booklets, that state there is a difference between various barrier jackets and what they enhance. Subaru's Jacket for example has a higher defensive specification.

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About TSAB personal… we really don’t see anything about them that make them look like anything but useless redshirts so, I don’t think we could say much about their overall capacity. They did some job, but most of the times they are just kick around by the bad guys and some rookies have to take the heave job.
Of course. That's the nature of a redshirt.

That does not change, however, that when said redshirts get a moment to shine, they pull a feat like stopping an entire army of AMF equipped drones. They are not as useless as their redshirt nature would imply.

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About the “real Witch” I don’t really think we should see her. I mean Lutecia and that other girl have been so much out of the events leading up to the destruction of Nove’s team that as far as I know might not even be on the same story. Really I can’t barely say they are characters at all.
"I want to see new magic!"

"Well, watch the witch girl. She has new magic."

"No, I don't want to see the witch girl."

Good grief, make up your mind already. The witch girl has exactly what you want and yet you don't want to see it.
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Old 2013-01-04, 20:29   Link #2383
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That goes a long way to explain why she chooses to live alone in a tent in the woods when she has a kind rich friend to hang out with.
Smashing part of that friend's house probably didn't help matters much for her opinion either.
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Old 2013-01-04, 20:46   Link #2384
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... I give up. Somebody call me when this is over. Good day.
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Old 2013-01-04, 23:40   Link #2385
Sansker
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I don’t know. If Sieg does gone berserker at times: why she keeps fighting? Won’t be better if she avoids that kind of situation so she doesn’t go like the Hulk and smash everything. I mean it that is the case will be irresponsible to risk others lives by entering a tournament where is a good change she will kill someone. Could be something different, and I am not sure she does live on that tend in the woods, seems more like a place to train.

Barrier Jackets aren’t invisible and if that is the case, a strong defense, I say could be address in the lots of parts where they comment on the fight but maybe that is the real answer. I just don’t see Barrier Jackets at such strong shields; they never hold up against the strongest attacks and just seem to be their last resource when fighting.

About the TSAB army I will never seem them being competent since half of the time they are use for the bad guys to stretch out a little. And then we see rookies take down such bad guys so really is something that I am not really getting here about general competence. My take on it.

The witch girl is new magic, but she is just so… no important that I am afraid the manga will show her up when we do have more interesting things going with this fight Einhart and Sieg had. The aftermatch of it is something I think could be more interesting than anything has happen on this manga so far, so really I don’t wish to be interrupt by Lutecia and the witch if its possible.
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Old 2013-01-04, 23:52   Link #2386
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Barrier Jackets aren’t invisible and if that is the case, a strong defense, I say could be address in the lots of parts where they comment on the fight but maybe that is the real answer. I just don’t see Barrier Jackets at such strong shields; they never hold up against the strongest attacks and just seem to be their last resource when fighting.
Actually, Vivio's already applied her barrier jacket defenses without changing her appearance whatsoever back in her mock fight with Shante. So they can be invisible.
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Old 2013-01-05, 00:37   Link #2387
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I didn't remember that. You are right. Point taken
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Old 2013-01-05, 01:20   Link #2388
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Actually, Vivio's already applied her barrier jacket defenses without changing her appearance whatsoever back in her mock fight with Shante. So they can be invisible.
Though it seems to require a special semi-unison "Contact Mode" with a Device specifically designed to cast, maintain and micro-manage one's defensive spells automatically, so that one can concentrate solely on fighting.

This appears to be a recent innovation, otherwise Shante wouldn't have questioned the lack of visible change, considering that she clearly saw Vivio and Sacred Heart do SOMETHING magical.
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Old 2013-01-05, 08:04   Link #2389
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I don’t know. If Sieg does gone berserker at times: why she keeps fighting? Won’t be better if she avoids that kind of situation so she doesn’t go like the Hulk and smash everything. I mean it that is the case will be irresponsible to risk others lives by entering a tournament where is a good change she will kill someone. Could be something different, and I am not sure she does live on that tend in the woods, seems more like a place to train.
We will just have to see more of Sieglinde to find out, now won't we?

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I just don’t see Barrier Jackets at such strong shields; they never hold up against the strongest attacks and just seem to be their last resource when fighting.
Hey, they can hold up to being chucked though concrete walls if the wearer is strong enough. The striperific part of them is rather Vivid specific, due to Vivid being such a fanservice manga.

If we're looking for an in-universe excuse, one could theorize it's an alteration done for the tournament to help simulate visual battle damage without actual physical injury. A visual cue to help judges make calls, so to say.

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About the TSAB army I will never seem them being competent since half of the time they are use for the bad guys to stretch out a little. And then we see rookies take down such bad guys so really is something that I am not really getting here about general competence. My take on it.
Yeah, that's what's generally called redshirt syndrome.

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The witch girl is new magic, but she is just so… no important that I am afraid the manga will show her up when we do have more interesting things going with this fight Einhart and Sieg had. The aftermatch of it is something I think could be more interesting than anything has happen on this manga so far, so really I don’t wish to be interrupt by Lutecia and the witch if its possible.
.... Weren't you complaining there was no point to this tournament anymore just a few pages back? And now what's going on is too important to interrupt?

You keep flipping between arguments like a pendulum here.

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Though it seems to require a special semi-unison "Contact Mode" with a Device specifically designed to cast, maintain and micro-manage one's defensive spells automatically, so that one can concentrate solely on fighting.

This appears to be a recent innovation, otherwise Shante wouldn't have questioned the lack of visible change, considering that she clearly saw Vivio and Sacred Heart do SOMETHING magical.
Debatable given how the concentrated application of magic has always been a thing, but the main point was to show invisible magic exists.
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:29   Link #2390
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I guess we need to see more of Sieg to know, agree, but I am just curious to be honest and is not that important. Besides is because of ViVid’s fanservice that I had my doubts about the defense power of Barrier Jackets. They just torn like they were made of paper mache or something like that. I always assume they made the mage so durable but when they are hit with magic lose some consistency. Besides if the defense was automatic Einhart could not hit Sieg like she did so is something the last one most control.

You get me wrong. I say the consequences of this fight, so I mean stick around Einhart and Vivio after all the memories Sieg make them revive and learn what is going to happen with them. I do consider that more interesting than Lutecia or the witch girl, more when you consider the little to no impact those two had in the story so far.
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Old 2013-01-05, 10:08   Link #2391
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Besides is because of ViVid’s fanservice that I had my doubts about the defense power of Barrier Jackets. They just torn like they were made of paper mache or something like that. I always assume they made the mage so durable but when they are hit with magic lose some consistency.
It's an inconsistency with the rest of the series, but note how damage to Jackets is always from attacks. When Vivio got thrown in a wall by Miura, not against, in a wall, her Jacket, and by extension Vivio, didn't even have a scratch. This shows that Jackets very much do have a great defensive value.

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Besides if the defense was automatic Einhart could not hit Sieg like she did so is something the last one most control.
I'm not sure what you mean by this... could you rephrase it?

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You get me wrong. I say the consequences of this fight, so I mean stick around Einhart and Vivio after all the memories Sieg make them revive and learn what is going to happen with them. I do consider that more interesting than Lutecia or the witch girl, more when you consider the little to no impact those two had in the story so far.
True, though witch-girls main theme has always been "she has unknown magic." But that means your wish to see the plot advance supersedes your wish to see new magic styles, no?
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Old 2013-01-05, 11:33   Link #2392
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Barrier Jackets are great against kinetic impacts, it seems. In fact, magical damage seems to be the only way to actually penetrate and hurt them. And most mages seem to value mobility over armor, so go with fairly light outfits... except for Victoria.
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Old 2013-01-05, 13:59   Link #2393
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Barrier Jackets are great against kinetic impacts, it seems. In fact, magical damage seems to be the only way to actually penetrate and hurt them. And most mages seem to value mobility over armor, so go with fairly light outfits... except for Victoria.
...on the other hand Barrier Jackets also seem to be awfully vulnerable against bladed attacks, Zest's jacket didn't do anything to protect him against Signum's blade, Nanoha's also seem to be badly damaged after receiving hits from Signum and Fate and aside of those ...usually people tend to just use defensive spells against Laevatein ...oh yeah, don't forget Vita being skewered by a Type IV drone.
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Old 2013-01-05, 14:04   Link #2394
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Zest was also on death's doorstep and couldn't seem to use his magic properly anymore thanks to his body breaking down. He likely couldn't put any magic into his barrier jacket, or more likely wasn't even bothering because hey--he wanted to die. Laevatein and Bardiche are also bladed magical weapons, so... yeah.
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Old 2013-01-05, 14:28   Link #2395
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Barrier Jackets are great against kinetic impacts, it seems. In fact, magical damage seems to be the only way to actually penetrate and hurt them.
Not that I disagree with your point, but what about that anti-tank round the Marriage shot at Subaru?

Was there a bit of magic in that mass projectile, or did it simply have enough armor-piercing force to fully peneatrate even a barrier jacket?


Barrier jackets may simply be better at handling blunt force impacts (especially from wide surfaces such as walls) than cutting and piercing surfaces.
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Old 2013-01-05, 14:46   Link #2396
Akiyoshi
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Zest was also on death's doorstep and couldn't seem to use his magic properly anymore thanks to his body breaking down. He likely couldn't put any magic into his barrier jacket, or more likely wasn't even bothering because hey--he wanted to die. Laevatein and Bardiche are also bladed magical weapons, so... yeah.
Funny, Barrier Jackets seem to function all the better when their wearer is in worse condition (guess that's kind of the goal of wearing on on first place), Mages have been beaten awfully on the story and the BJ always seems to give it's better defensive powers when the wearer is as it's weakest which makes sense as those are made to save the live of the wearer. Mages even had fallen uncouncsious with their BJ's still trying to prevent further damage.

Zest was on death's doorstep even before the beginning of the season and was enough to deal with two Belkan Knights and then finsihed off a combat cyborg without even breaking a sweat. I can buy he hasn't the concentration or will to pull out a defensive spell on his last duel but i doubt that has something to do with his Knight Clothing's functions xDU

Nanoha able to gather and firing Starlight Breaker even after being brutalized by Vita and core crushed by Shamal serves as good example magic is not directly related to health condition, Precia was also dying (and probably in even worse condition than Zest) but that didn't prevented her from laying the smackdown on pretty much everyone. Zest wanted to die, but he wanted a honorable knight's death which is, dying in fair fight with wathever strenght you still have, stand still waiting for the sword would be enough if he really wanted to die the way you implied.
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Old 2013-01-05, 19:51   Link #2397
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However, the point of them being magical weapons still stands. Not so much in the kinetic VS magic kind of sense (to be honest, I would rather avoid this kind of comparison), but more that, well, as with all magic attacks the attacks of a magical weapon tends to be enhanced with magic.

So it's more a blunt VS sharp damage, which falls back to fiction fighting being terribly unrealistic almost all the time. Blunt force can do as much harmful damage as sharp damage, but because blunt damage tends to be less visible, it's easier to ignore it. Most people won't care if a hero or villain gets up after getting hit with a hammer, but slicing a guy with a sword? That's going to be cracking the suspension of disbelief on a lot of people if he gets up as if nothing has happened after that.
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Old 2013-01-05, 22:34   Link #2398
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I use to go for the magic being able to cut the Barrier Jacket and the physical impacts not for a reason of the nature in the spells but again that is kind of odd when blades can cut the jackets as well so I really stop thinking about it. Besides on Subaru’s case she is not a good example because of her cyborg nature, she is really stronger and can take more damage than a simple human could, Barrier Jacket or not.

But this is away from ViVid guys. Let’s keep focus. What I mean up there Keroko is this: An invisible defense on Sieg will cover all her body and will be active to prevent Ein from doing damage, but Ein did hit Sieg on the face and cause a 5000 LifePoints damage, so to me Sieg wasn’t using an invisible Contact Mode as Vivio was. Is not that I can’t buy Sieg having a contact mode far stronger than Vivio’s but is just never address and when I see a character beating up another one so bad, I do want an explanation to why the fight is too one sided beyond: “she is the champion”. More foreshadowing or a little quick cover up will be helpful on that case.

And I want to see any kind of plot and story beyond a rather boring fight between two girls we know so little about and are just fighting for fun.
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Old 2013-01-05, 22:43   Link #2399
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Is not that I can’t buy Sieg having a contact mode far stronger than Vivio’s but is just never address and when I see a character beating up another one so bad, I do want an explanation to why the fight is too one sided beyond: “she is the champion”. More foreshadowing or a little quick cover up will be helpful on that case.
Isn't that more than enough reason to explain Sieg's skills?

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And I want to see any kind of plot and story beyond a rather boring fight between two girls we know so little about and are just fighting for fun.
I fear you're going to be disappointed, if that's what you want, at least for now.
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Old 2013-01-05, 23:32   Link #2400
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