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Old 2013-01-05, 03:48   Link #421
GundamZZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyprene View Post
I was half-considering "Dragonlord", which was the translation for 魔王 used by the original Dragon Warrior NES game. Ended up rejecting it for a couple reasons, not the least of which is that at one point an actual Dragon Lord does show up.
In the first Dragon Quest game, the last boss is dragon king(竜王). The dismal in distress is Rola Princess. The last boss abducts the princess and plan to marry her. He also plots to conquer the world. Yusha is the descendant of a legendary hero Lot. Lot's legacy is defeating a great demon king(大魔王). So, the dragon king is the first last boss from the genric genre. Sticking with demon king or queen is probably more faithful to the later naming trend. Besides, Mao-nesan is the candidate for the last boss or dismal in distress, or both. It's refreshing that Yuusha(brave being) and Maou(demon monarch) already exchange love oath in the first episode. It makes the rest episode as honeymoon, or seven years of etch.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Looking forward to the Demon King and her Head Maid then, and all the rest of the joy that will derive from the decision. Because by going with Demon King, you automatically add an implicit connotation in English that the speaker is questioning the femininity of the one addressed, since it is _NOT_ immediately recognizable as a formal title. Yes, Duke of Normandy is a side-title, but she isn't ADDRESSED solely like that, but with her main title which is explicitly female. So, you're opening up a can of worms by sticking to translational purity here, which in my book is a very poor trade.
Nah. Most other language in the world do not address everything by genders. To other culture, addressing tree/flower/houses as male or female is weird. Fortunately, English hasn't gone that far. Instead trying to pacify the English purist, it is also good time to educate them about other culture.
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Last edited by GundamZZ; 2013-01-05 at 04:08.
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Old 2013-01-05, 03:50   Link #422
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Looking forward to the Demon King and her Head Maid then, and all the rest of the joy that will derive from the decision. Because by going with Demon King, you automatically add a connotation in English that the speaker is questioning the femininity of the one addressed. Yes, Duke of Normandy is a side-title, but she isn't ADDRESSED solely like that, but with her main title which is explicitly female. So, you're opening up a can of worms by sticking to translational purity here, which in my book is a very poor trade.
Erm yeah can't be completely sure about it, but I think we'll live...
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Old 2013-01-05, 03:55   Link #423
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyprene View Post
I was half-considering "Dragonlord", which was the translation for 魔王 used by the original Dragon Warrior NES game.
There was also that nifty little reference to Dragon Quest I whenever Demon KingQueenLord offered to share half the world with him.
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Old 2013-01-05, 03:59   Link #424
Petdit
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Erm yeah can't be completely sure about it, but I think we'll live...
Of course we'll live, but I agree with Mentar that it feels very off.

Well, there will be other versions, too, I'm sure. So those who feel strongly about it will undoubtedly be able to get the Demon Queen, as well.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:03   Link #425
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Looking forward to the Demon King and her Head Maid then, and all the rest of the joy that will derive from the decision. Because by going with Demon King, you automatically add a connotation in English that the speaker is questioning the femininity of the one addressed.
Honest question from someone who doesn't know japanese but isn't that the case in japanese as well?The characters were both acting like that was the case and that her title was weird with even her saying "It's a traditional title,I can't help it"

So if it sounds unnatural in japanese shouldn't it sound unnatural in english as well?
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:04   Link #426
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Petdit View Post
Of course we'll live, but I agree with Mentar that it feels very off.
I don't know- I can't bring up any immediate examples, but this certainly isn't my first King-Queen in Anime or any other fantasy story so I guess I'm just not seeing the can of worms.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:07   Link #427
Dr. Casey
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Scorpios take everything seriously, Chaos. If Mentar was born a few days earlier, he would be a Libra and not care as much, but that is not the path fate had in mind.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:08   Link #428
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Honest question from someone who doesn't know japanese but isn't that the case in japanese as well?The characters were both acting like that was the case and that her title was weird with even her saying "It's a traditional title,I can't help it"

So if it sounds unnatural in japanese shouldn't it sound unnatural in english as well?
Yeah, so it is canon that Ruby Eye is using a male title and that the characters acknowledged that it is strange. The characters also made it clear that they can't change it.

She is using a male title. That's the fact of it. To change it to "Demon Queen" would not be a translation, but fanfiction.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:09   Link #429
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Scorpios take everything seriously, Chaos. If Mentar was born a few days earlier, he would be a Libra and not care as much, but that is not the path fate had in mind.
Coincidentally, I'm a Libra
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:11   Link #430
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Scorpios take everything seriously, Chaos. If Mentar was born a few days earlier, he would be a Libra and not care as much, but that is not the path fate had in mind.
I doubt that this is it

I have been in love with this show for a loooong time, and for me, Demon Queen is Demon Queen, which would have been a perfectly valid editing decision, too. I think Petdit put it best: There will be other versions, I'm sure. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
She is using a male title. That's the fact of it. To change it to "Demon Queen" would not be a translation, but fanfiction.
Listen to the translation experts *rolls eyes* ... well, whatever.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:14   Link #431
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I think Petdit put it best: There will be other versions, I'm sure. Problem solved.
Your anguish would be delicious when you find out that every version uses the same thing

King, Emperor, Lord... etc.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:16   Link #432
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Your anguish would be delicious when you find out that every version uses the same thing

King, Emperor, Lord... etc.
They won't, don't worry. The reference mangas do it 'my way', and even in the worst case, I'm perfectly able to edit and remux softsubs
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:23   Link #433
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I doubt that this is it
Listen to the translation experts *rolls eyes* ... well, whatever.
So you are telling me that after this episode confirmed that 1. The characters know her title is male and 2. The characters can't change it. That you still insist that the title gets changed to suit a translation mistake in the fandom?

Despite the fact that the source material does not?

And that I am a hack for stating this fact?
Quote:
They won't, don't worry. The reference mangas do it 'my way', and even in the worst case, I'm perfectly able to edit and remux softsubs
Good, then it would be the last we would hear about it. Feel free to edit all your subs to suit your preferences, no one is stopping you.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:31   Link #434
Marcus H.
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They won't, don't worry. The reference mangas do it 'my way', and even in the worst case, I'm perfectly able to edit and remux softsubs
Well, sorry that they didn't do it your way.

Can we please move this "subber elitism" out of this thread? We already have much to discuss, and it doesn't include whether we call her "Demon King" or "Demon Queen".
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:32   Link #435
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So you are telling me that after this episode confirmed that 1. The characters know her title is male and 2. The characters can't change it
As someone not familiar with the source are elements 1 and 2 in the novels and manga as well or is it something unique to the anime?
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:36   Link #436
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
As someone not familiar with the source are elements 1 and 2 in the novels and manga as well or is it something unique to the anime?
Doesn't matter. 1. We are discussing the anime. 2. In all versions her title never changed (Other than her alternate name when disguised as a human). The names in this franchise are all symbolic; they are not meant to identify individuals, but entire populations and social groups.
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Old 2013-01-05, 04:38   Link #437
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So you are telling me that after this episode confirmed that 1. The characters know her title is male and 2. The characters can't change it. That you still insist that the title gets changed to suit a translation mistake in the fandom?
Look. Translation is no mathematical science, there is always a wide range of interpretation possible. Which is kinda humorous, since in the past I've usually taken the position that favors a more literal conversion. Calling this fairly ambiguous editing decision a "translation mistake" is pretty rude.

The thing is that in this show, all characters wear functional descriptions. Female Knight, Young Merchant, Winter Night King, Shrewd Treasurer - neither of them are titles, they merely describe what they are. Treating Maou completely different from the entire rest feels off to me, and as you can see, not only me. And yet, like I explicitly stated, I accept Cyprene's reasoning and appreciate his effort to explain it to us.

Quote:
Good, then it would be the last we would hear about it. Feel free to edit all your subs to suit your preferences, no one is stopping you.
If discussing this point is irritating to you, why do you prolong this discussion by rudely telling people to shut up? It's been fairly civil up to now, let's please keep it that way.
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Old 2013-01-05, 05:00   Link #438
Cyprene
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Her official title, oddly enough, is "Archenemy", as the subtitle of the book is "Archenemy and Hero."

I don't think I've ever seen any material in English actually use that, though, and we never seriously considered it. Nor was there any message from Japan telling us to do so. Sometimes there are very lengthy lists of "official" names (One show that CR has this season requires official names for every single character in the script, right down to "Bystander A" and "Girl C".) MaoYuu had none of that, so it was up to my discretion and the editor's.
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Old 2013-01-05, 05:23   Link #439
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Look. Translation is no mathematical science, there is always a wide range of interpretation possible.
Except there's nothing ambiguous about 'Maou', not in this context since the characters themselves clearly acknowledge it =_=

At the same time, I've never seen 王 being used for anything other than King.
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Old 2013-01-05, 05:36   Link #440
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Cyprene View Post
I was half-considering "Dragonlord", which was the translation for 魔王 used by the original Dragon Warrior NES game. Ended up rejecting it for a couple reasons, not the least of which is that at one point an actual Dragon Lord does show up.
If you are into more localized translations, there are always nice choices like "Overlord," "Ha-Satan," or "Arch-devil," etc. I am rather partial to the first choice to go along with naming her kingdom the Netherworld. But of course, "lord" is also a masculine title, but fortunately overlord does not have a masculine form in use.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Because by going with Demon King, you automatically add an implicit connotation in English that the speaker is questioning the femininity of the one addressed, since it is _NOT_ immediately recognizable as a formal title. Yes, Duke of Normandy is a side-title, but she isn't ADDRESSED solely like that, but with her main title which is explicitly female.
She is addressed by "your majesty." The fact that the listing of her titles does not include one that is solely Duke of Normandy/Lancaster is a function of listing the titles from most to least important, not a function of needing to emphasize her sex. When the office itself is named with an apparently masculine title, the holder of the office generally uses that title until the name of the title itself is changed--Lord Justice Butler-Sloss, first name Anne, addressed as "My Lord" for several years until it was permitted to change, for example.

In universe, the character's title is Demon King. The Hero's reaction and the Demon King's explanation are quite explicit on this matter. For the viewers, it is merely a simple matter of accepting that she is to be addressed with a normally masculine title, which is far less jarring than a disconnect between her in universe title and reference in text.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The thing is that in this show, all characters wear functional descriptions. Female Knight, Young Merchant, Winter Night King, Shrewd Treasurer - neither of them are titles, they merely describe what they are. Treating Maou completely different from the entire rest feels off to me, and as you can see, not only me.
You are cherry picking here. "Head maid" is a title, as is King of Winter--<ruler> of <realm> is a title, after all.
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