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Old 2013-01-05, 23:49   Link #2401
Craxuan
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Why are we not expecting plot? Vivid has done a better job clarifying its direction and future plot much more than Force.
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Old 2013-01-06, 00:38   Link #2402
Sansker
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Not really since ViVid lacks and overall story that covers the tournament or the characters interactions. There is no goal here so we are making this as we move along, not having a plot to be followed and not even keeping the focus on the same characters and giving some fights too much time and space and others not so much.
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Old 2013-01-06, 05:32   Link #2403
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Is not that I can’t buy Sieg having a contact mode far stronger than Vivio’s but is just never address and when I see a character beating up another one so bad, I do want an explanation to why the fight is too one sided beyond: “she is the champion”. More foreshadowing or a little quick cover up will be helpful on that case.
That whole "having wrecked an entire room as a kid and standing in front of beaten armies" is about as foreshadow-y as you can get.

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Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
Why are we not expecting plot? Vivid has done a better job clarifying its direction and future plot much more than Force.
Vivid has a habit of showing vestiges of more interesting plot than it actually has.

"Here's some interesting info on Vivio's original- Haha, joke, have some loli fights."

"Remember Ix? Well, here she is and she's going to be plot relevant- Psyche!"

And so on.
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Old 2013-01-06, 10:50   Link #2404
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I mean prior that and not just about the big claw thing Sieg des on Record 44. I just say with all the stuff they always put in the chapters like: this power is like this or she is using a super spell, etc. they could mention what Sieg did to make Einhart almost lose the fight by self knockout. A minor complain really is just that the other way around the powers come in and out with so much freedom that is easy for a character to just put out a power to resolve the situation they are on right now and could feel cheap at times.

And you are right about ViVid. That is why I ended not liking it so much. As you say is like it say:

“You want this interesting story? You want it? Well screw you, you can’t have it!”

Potential for something was always there.
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Old 2013-01-06, 11:51   Link #2405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Not that I disagree with your point, but what about that anti-tank round the Marriage shot at Subaru?

Was there a bit of magic in that mass projectile, or did it simply have enough armor-piercing force to fully peneatrate even a barrier jacket?
I said they were great against Kinetic impacts, not perfect. Obviously, you drop something from orbit and get it going at mach 10, a mage's barrier jacket isn't going to shrug that off. But if I could wear something that would allow me to survive a close range HEAT round?

As far as bladed weapons cutting, they have always been magic weapons. If you look back through our history, offense has, 90% of the time, been greater than defense. It would make sense for magical weapons and spells, designed for cutting through magical defenses, would be able to accomplish that role.

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Why are we not expecting plot? Vivid has done a better job clarifying its direction and future plot much more than Force.
I joke all the time about Vivid not having a plot, but yes, it does have a bit of a plot: "Vivio meets another descendent of ancient Belkan times, and they practice martial arts and go to a tournament. Will they win? Will they lose?"

So, you're partially right, in that it does have a plot. It's just so incredibly light, and as Keroko noted, they tease greater plot points, but never get around to them. But as far as direction... with our main characters having lost, where does it go from here? If it has direction, you'd know where it was going.

Vivid's problem is that it's plot was extremely light, and there was never really any real "threat." Nothing to make you think the heroes were in any sort of danger. And granted, that's hard to do with tournament stories, but some stories do manage it; the key is to not make the tournament such a focus. Karate Kid accomplished that, where the tournament was just the stage for the resolution of the conflict.

Vivid has no real conflict, and no real antagonists. I'm not worried at all that anyone will die, or get horribly injured (either physically or mentally).

It's similar to another Tsuzuki creation: Dog Days. That series has no real conflict, and thus doesn't appeal to me. There are people who like it, though, including a friend of mine who likes it because it's "so damn happy."

In contrast, Force has actual threat and actual antagonists. We have a plot with sufficient mystery, ie, while we know kinda where it's going (the Hucks and Hardis will clash with the heroes), we don't know how all the separate elements will play out. Will any Hucks change sides? Where will Thoma end up? Who isn't safe? Given the higher on-screen dead body count and serious injury count, and the Eclipse viruses ability to turn people into lumps of flesh... it's just enough to give you some small doubt about who may survive (intact).

I acknowledge this is a subjective thing, since there are people who like stories like Dog Days and Vivid. But objectively, it can be stated that Vivid does not have much of a plot. Or at least, it is not exploring the deeper plot points that have been hinted at. And if it eventually does, this tournament has really dragged the story out, and didn't really need to be there.

And this is coming from someone who wrote a tournament arc into one of his more popular stories. Despite my attempt to make it relevant to the plot, quite a few people agree it merely dragged the story out, and could have been made more condensed.

Now, whenever I point out negatives, the obvious response is that it is easier to be critical. Not many people actually point out ways to improve, so I will do so. Had it been me writing, I would have kept Einhart as an antagonist, a strong one. She would have beaten Nove up and not been discovered. If we are going to keep the tournament in play, Einhart could have discovered Vivio and demanded a match, easily beating her. Vivio would have wanted a rematch, and because we need to give the shonen protagonist time to train, she could have suggested they meet again in the tournament.

While in the tournament, as Vivio, Rio, and Corona(and probably Miura) fight through it, they discover that Einhart was the tip of the iceberg. There is apparently a conspiracy of ancient Belkan Royalty descendents, and Einhart was merely their strongest development (since Klaus was the only one who could ever fight Olive equally). Victoria and Sieg would be a part of this, and probably end up the antagonists of Rio and Corona. The antagonistic and secretive Belkan Royalty society ostensively seeks to protect society in place of the Bureau, whom they don't see as doing a good job (witness the Bureau helping to fund the creation of combat cyborgs and Jail). That's what Einhart believes.

But more secretly, people like Victoria and Sieg just want to rule again, like their ancestors did in the old days. The former has seen the wealth and prestige of her family decline over the years and wants to reverse. The latter was just born with a cursed power and hates herself for the destruction she causes with it. These two would play nicely into Rio and Corona, as Rio's family is also rich and would counter that Victoria should just accept her life as is; just because your family is rich and powerful, doesn't mean you are any better. And Corona's unique power would play against Sieg's unique power, because Corona was also afraid of her power once, but learned to harness it when someone showed interest in it; she points out Sieg can do the same.

Add in some side fights that further the discovery plot of this Belkan royalty society and lead to the discovery of Olive's last mission, and what their ancestors truly believed (in a surprise the society, the ancient Belkan rulers like Klaus and Olive didn't think their "rule" was beneficial and so helped along their own collapse). Ix would be kidnapped along the way to become a part of this, and perhaps when she wakes up, she could shed some light on just what happened hundreds of years ago.

And that's kinda how I would do it. Link it to the past, with the past struggle being played out in the present, partially inside of a tournament. Then again, if you made Vivid heavier, it would mean you can't do Force and thus show that everything turned out alright.
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Old 2013-01-06, 12:08   Link #2406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I mean prior that and not just about the big claw thing Sieg des on Record 44. I just say with all the stuff they always put in the chapters like: this power is like this or she is using a super spell, etc. they could mention what Sieg did to make Einhart almost lose the fight by self knockout. A minor complain really is just that the other way around the powers come in and out with so much freedom that is easy for a character to just put out a power to resolve the situation they are on right now and could feel cheap at times.
I... must admit the grammar here makes it incredibly hard for me to figure out what you're trying to say. Could you perhaps rephrase it?

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It's similar to another Tsuzuki creation: Dog Days. That series has no real conflict, and thus doesn't appeal to me. There are people who like it, though, including a friend of mine who likes it because it's "so damn happy."
I'm on that list as well. Though Dog Days has a bit of an excuse in that the entire series is supposed to be a deconstruction on the usual "Hero gets summoned to save a country at war" story. S2 completely dropped the trousers of pretend and didn't even bother with serious plot at all.
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Old 2013-01-06, 13:57   Link #2407
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I'd rather have a light-hearted series than one that's bad at having a serious plot.
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Old 2013-01-06, 17:18   Link #2408
Sansker
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They are both bad and ViVid is more heartless than light-hearted. Is just too easy and happy going, like Dog Days, which I did consider an odd and boring.

Keroko, what I say there is just that they could explain what was Sieg doing to resist all the hits Einhart use on her, and no just go with the “Sieg is the champion and she is strong” excuse.

I don’t think we can talk about “improve” ViVid that much when we all see things than may or may not work. I mean I have my own ideas on how to make it more interesting but to be fair giving it a big plot is not the only answer. If this wanted to go in a slice-of-life route could be more as a character focus story or even just short heartwarming stories to picture some elements of how the world for the characters move after the events in StrikerS. But of course that could be boring on some regard and not that great on a series that likes to have so much action. I like action, but pointless action is boring as is right now with the tournament where I think is more interesting to see character development and scenes with Vivio and Einhart dealing with their problems than a fight with any of the other characters.
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Old 2013-01-06, 17:54   Link #2409
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Keroko, what I say there is just that they could explain what was Sieg doing to resist all the hits Einhart use on her, and no just go with the “Sieg is the champion and she is strong” excuse.
.... Which is what they are doing. I'm afraid I have no knowledge of moonrunes to speak of so I can't say what the dialog is saying, but we're shown that Sieg is also another person related to ancient Belka in some ways.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I don’t think we can talk about “improve” ViVid that much when we all see things than may or may not work. I mean I have my own ideas on how to make it more interesting but to be fair giving it a big plot is not the only answer. If this wanted to go in a slice-of-life route could be more as a character focus story or even just short heartwarming stories to picture some elements of how the world for the characters move after the events in StrikerS. But of course that could be boring on some regard and not that great on a series that likes to have so much action. I like action, but pointless action is boring as is right now with the tournament where I think is more interesting to see character development and scenes with Vivio and Einhart dealing with their problems than a fight with any of the other characters.
Chapter 39 was pretty much devoted to showing how Vivio dealt with her loss, so again, they are doing what you're asking.
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:02   Link #2410
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Chapter 39 was pretty much devoted to showing how Vivio dealt with her loss, so again, they are doing what you're asking.
I think i can understand Sanskers's complain on this one, sure one episode is dedicated but i think character developement would be made in a constant flowing, is not necessary to focus just in one character, the plot can move freely from one character to another as long as what happens with the character in the limelight serves some significant purpouse. I'm not saying characters in the tournament serve no purpouse but so far they're very superficial to the main plot and their fights apport very little to actual character developement no matter how awesome some fights may be (as much as i loved Victoria VS. Shante, their fight had little to nothing to do with the plot). The natural exceptions are the fights that involves members of the main cast or fights that reveal something usefull to advance the plot ...and even some of those aren't that significant (compared with her friends, Rio's fight was pretty forgettable and is just "kind of there").

As i've said before Sieg's VS. Eins fight is important to the plot but it was dragged more than necessary (Curb-Stomps battles shouldn't last long ...it becames a bit boring seeing a character being trashed around for more than two episodes straight).

So, this episode abouts Vivio dealing with her loss is usefull but felt almost like a half-baked compensation after a bunch of episodes with nothing important to add on the story xDU
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:12   Link #2411
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Yes that is whait I think Akiyoshi.

On the other hand what is "moonrunes"? The ones I know are from The Hobbit
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:13   Link #2412
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Moonrunes are just what we call Japanese hiragana/katakana/kanji.
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:21   Link #2413
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I didn't knew that. Thank you
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:21   Link #2414
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True, some of the fights were rather plotless and served more as character establishment. However I would defend the fights as most of them tend to have the more juicy character development parts hidden in the dialog. Rio's is kind of out there without translation, I agree. But given that the fight only lasted two chapters, it's not that bad.

Sieg VS Eins is dragged on mainly because of the flashbacks containing plot and character development and the dialog between the two, which has a high chance of bringing development of either type as well. Cut those out and you could easily tone the fight down by a chapter or two. Though as that would cut out what we are asking for that'd be rather counterproductive.

And that's the big problem with judging the latest chapters, really. Untranslated, all we have is pretty pictures, but a lot of potential development lies sleeping in the dialog. You may not notice by only looking at the untranslated chapters, but Vivid has done a lot of its character development during the fights.
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:32   Link #2415
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It does but that is also a problem since most of the time we sit and let other people just tell us things about the characters. Works maybe about some points but really at times all we know about someone is what the others told us and I am more of a fan of sowing and let natural dialogue bring it up rather than exposition dialogue. Which seems to be the one that rules ViVid, where characters only appear to share pointless observations of the obvious and explain the powers of the characters. The rest of the time the dialogue is really not that great.
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Old 2013-01-06, 18:34   Link #2416
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And that's the big problem with judging the latest chapters, really. Untranslated, all we have is pretty pictures, but a lot of potential development lies sleeping in the dialog. You may not notice by only looking at the untranslated chapters, but Vivid has done a lot of its character development during the fights.
Just to mention it, the newer Chapters do get translated in spanish, it's just that i haven't been following ViVid closely for a good time but Sansker has cheked those episodes so i think he have a good grasp of what's being said during the fights xD
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Old 2013-01-06, 19:15   Link #2417
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Translation is also an inexact science, especially when translating from Japanese. Without getting into details, there is a lot about Japanese language that is either assumed, or subtly different depending on how you read it. I've been working on adding song subtitles to some of my Nanoha files (editing in song subtitles for "Take a Shot" "Snow Rain" "Brave Phoenix" and "Pray"), and I've noticed that sentences can be translated a few different ways. When I've had a couple different translations, I've had to go back and roughly translate the words to get a general sense of the phrase to understand which to use. And sometimes I make up my own phrase if I feel the 2 or 3 translations I have don't feel right.

So, I'm gonna wait until there are English translations, where a larger group of people can debate the meaning, rather than, say, rely on someone from Argentina to tell us what the spanish version says. More to the point, I'd rather have a native Japanese speaker explain things, if there points of contention.
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Old 2013-01-06, 20:15   Link #2418
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Well, I do read the spanish and the english version but nothing on the last one made me change my mind about the series at all
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Old 2013-01-06, 21:12   Link #2419
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So, I'm gonna wait until there are English translations, where a larger group of people can debate the meaning, rather than, say, rely on someone from Argentina to tell us what the spanish version says. More to the point, I'd rather have a native Japanese speaker explain things, if there points of contention.
Naturally, having an expertnative japanese speaker would be the better way to get the exact works but since there's no one like that working on ViVid's translation we must work with what we have (the person doing the spanish version translates directly from japanese ...and usually gets most of the stuff right ..or at least that's what i noted when i compare it with the final english releases o_o).

I think the last translated chapter i watched were of the fight between Miura and micaiah so yeah, i'm pretty far away in terms of solid dialogue xD
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Old 2013-01-06, 22:30   Link #2420
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You ever play the party game "Telephone"? The one where you whisper something in someone's ear, and they repeat it to the next person, and by the time the last person says it out loud, it's completely different?

Yeah, I kinda try to avoid judging anything by second and third hand information, and wait until I read it myself. Even if they think they are telling it to you right, it could still come out sounding wrong. So, translation from Japanese to Spanish and then to English, is... not something wise I would engage in.

Though I do talk to people working on the Vivid project.
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