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Old 2013-01-06, 20:30   Link #31561
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan
This contradicts the images of her given in Bern's EP7 Tea Party, and her EP8 game. I'm willing to claim that the images of Ep4 represents a form of their actions: Shannon and Kanon personalities were fighting for control against Beatrice, Krauss may have fought against Yasu physically even... but Kyrie and Nanjo? They ran and hid.
EP4 has way too many unknown variables anyway. Sure, Kanon was the 9th victim and the first of Kyrie's group - it does tell us a bit about the order, but to find the one "logic" that makes sense out of everything...

Though it is possible that Kyrie was the first actual human of the group to die: after making the phone call - as per Yasu's instrcution - she's shot... considering your points: Krauss witnessed this, tried to talk some sense into Yasu. However he does not succeed and starts running towards the back door, *bang* another one down. Don't know where exactly his body was placed, if he was actually turned as if running inside he might've run into Nanjo who came to check what is going on.

Forced? Well... it's EP4, not a whole lot we can do here.

Nanjo being reduced to running away is quite fitting for him actually. After seeing all that he'd better get the F out.

First twilight? ... well, if Kanon is the ninth it must've happened already. So what happened there exactly? How did she get Kyrie and Krauss (it'd be so much easier with Rudolf instead) to play along? Good question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan
Even what she tells Jessica about "killing Asumu," fits this. She was "prepared to take Asumu's life herself." so that when Asumu did die do to circumstances beyond Kyrie's control, Kyrie still says that she did it herself.. But that's just the thing: Kyrie did not kill Asumu, and this will not change regardless of what Kyrie claim.

I think Kyrie is just a sham, and is not as mentally prepared to carry out a mass murder as shown in Ep7 and 8.
Possible. In the end, EP8 itself said that the Kyrie (or Rudolf's family) culprit theory doesn't make more sense than the others.
Similiar to how George is probably not mentally prepared to kill everyone for Shannon, despite what a magic scene said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
- The locked/unlocked status of a room is almost never checked by the detective, in most cases it isn't checked at all and everyone just assumes them to be locked simply because their owners have the habit of locking them.
Definitely. It's amusing how much they talk about keys without checking this first, blasted unreliable narrator!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
George accomplice:
What applies to Rosa in game two applies to him as well, during several murders he was within eyereach of battler thus not able to commit any crime.
It's quite obvious to me that George was only added for EP3. Even Natsuhi's locked room... you could, with Rosa as the culprit, still claim that we don't have Battler's point of view for what Rosa was doing the entire time. Maybe Rosa threatened him and whatnot, went to the "toilet", etc. without Battler saying anything.

He got threatened and is no longer reliable or at least conveniently hiding part of his knowledge. There is no red that Rosa never left the parlor in this timeframe (I know I know, dumb and cheap argument, don't tell me ). Therefore, Rosa, who has the master keys, could've killed them; George is not necessary.

So... everything could be done with Rosa in KNM's theory (albeit some ... well, Shkanon has its own weird explanations sometimes, let's just not talk any more about this aspect), though EP4 is even harder and weirder to make sense out of. Except for EP3. But KNM wanted Rosa to be the culprit, what a quandery!
It is a common rule in science that the more you have to change and adapt aspects of your theory, the more special cases exist, the more its credibility has to be doubted. Same here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
then there is another rule one must not overlook:
There are no accomplices. There is but one killer and he did it all alone.
That's new - is it one of Van Dines rules? Those don't necessarily apply. And do you mean "accomplices in murder" or "accomplices in protecting the murderer"? Because Shkanon certainly has a few of the latter that probably know what's going on, plus one of the siblings as helper (EP1: Eva, EP2: Rosa, EP3: Krauss?, EP4: Kyrie, Krauss, probably more), the "accomplice that's doesn't know anything". And depending on whether you think that Yasu claimed to prepare a mystery game even more, namely nearly everyone. In fact, if you follow http://goatsreadingseacats.tumblr.com/ you'll notice that Genji was hanging out with Yasu the entire time, providing a steady alibi.

And there could be multiple murderers, at least for EP3... Will even implies in EP3 that Eva might've actually killed Natsuhi and Krauss ("the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade", which was clearly her role in that episode). At least I can't remember a rule that there can't be more.



There is an interview where Ryukishi claims that if you do not understand a certain action by Beatrice, you do not understand the story. With Shkanon it's not hard to understand, but I couldn't make the logic work with Rosatrice (and how KNM explained the love duel). Sure, in theory I can accept the notion that Ryukishi might be lying to protect those that found the answer, but to say "if you don't understand this, you don't understand the story" is a mighty strong statement to still lie about.


Well, in general I don't have anything against them or anyone just proposing different and new theories for fun. I personally enjoy trying to make Kyrietrice work (then again, getting her out of the chapel in EP2 was the biggest problem anyway and with loads of assumptions it's possible to twist the red).


Since I'm already posting... I feel bad for bringing up this topic. I'm sorry. So sorry, please don't hit me. Everyone here has to bang their head against this issue at least once, right? Just ignore me.

Spoiler for Protect your sanity, it's EP5 parlor-time:


So sorry. Let's just not discuss this and move on.

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-06 at 20:49.
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Old 2013-01-06, 21:02   Link #31562
Valkama
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Van Dine's 12th. There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders: the entire indignation of the reader must be permitted to concentrate on a single black nature.

A problem with this rule is Ep8's murder scenerio. Perhaps something like "The Rudolf family is the one true culprit" would work. Of course this rule also wasn't stated in red so who knows.
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Old 2013-01-06, 21:08   Link #31563
GabrieliosP
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@RandomAvatarFan

I may be nitpicking, but Kyrie did do something during the chase scene. She helped Krauss in stalling the goats while Kanon cut through the last set of iron bars. Nanjo was the truly useless one.
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Old 2013-01-06, 21:15   Link #31564
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
So... everything could be done with Rosa in KNM's theory (albeit some ... well, Shkanon has its own weird explanations sometimes, let's just not talk any more about this aspect), though EP4 is even harder and weirder to make sense out of. Except for EP3. But KNM wanted Rosa to be the culprit, what a quandery!
It is a common rule in science that the more you have to change and adapt aspects of your theory, the more special cases exist, the more its credibility has to be doubted. Same here.
I disagree about everything being explainable with Rosa. You can fill her in as Beatrice for some parts but thats everything. The only crime she could have comitted hrself in EP 2 was the first one. We have no clue that she ever left Battlers side from then on. I would even go further and claim she is the detective for the 2nd game as battler stopped thinking rationally at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
That's new - is it one of Van Dines rules? Those don't necessarily apply. And do you mean "accomplices in murder" or "accomplices in protecting the murderer"? Because Shkanon certainly has a few of the latter that probably know what's going on, plus one of the siblings as helper (EP1: Eva, EP2: Rosa, EP3: Krauss?, EP4: Kyrie, Krauss, probably more), the "accomplice that's doesn't know anything". And depending on whether you think that Yasu claimed to prepare a mystery game even more, namely nearly everyone. In fact, if you follow http://goatsreadingseacats.tumblr.com/ you'll notice that Genji was hanging out with Yasu the entire time, providing a steady alibi.
If my memory serves me right its a VanDine rule. The VanDine rule would still allow minor helpers though so it probably comes from EP 8. Even if its just the VanDine rule itself though. Carrying out the murders for her is already against the rule again.
If you want, as Rosa would say it, a Rosa-Wolf you also need a Genji Wolf, as he is the only one alone long enough to kill Kanon/Jessica and and the other 3.
And yes 'we don't know if VanDine truly applies' was one of my base arguments back then too. However, he was allowed to state them in red, so the most likely have a significance.
Another thing to note is that Kanon/Shanon can't be at two places. So they were either with Jessica or Genji. Yet there is another eye witness for Kanon being there, namely Gouda. Genji has no such witness since Kinzo is already dead. he was thus alone during most of the 2nd game.

However a servant must not be the culprit either, without him you can't pin Rosa though.
I wouldn't put it past Rosa to having tried to cheer Maria up pretending to be Beatrice, and running into the masnion afterwards - being seen by Kyrie.

However she was always observed by Battler, if not Knox would require us to get a hint that she had enough ime to kill said 4 people. Not to talk about carying Nanjo out of the room without leaving scrub marks.

The only way out of that room for the two bodies is the window, which is likely since Nanjo is probably pretty heavy. Yet, even then her clothes would be full of blood.
Add the time she needs to change clothes to the time she needs to make the bodies vanish and you can pretty much say that is more than walking to the toilet already.


Still the biggest issue about his theory remains the Beatrice-Battler relationship in my eyes.
We all know how twisted Rosa is, but that goes a bit too far, even for her.

it probably depends on whether the culprit is truly the same for every Episode.
My personal take on it is that its always the same person, solving it would otherhand be truly 'by chance'.



@EP 5:
Its not the only thing that doesn't match up.
The George-knocking theory is too bold in my eyes considering how Natsuhi was still walking around at that time. But yeah he is probably right about the clock.

Though don't forget, even if Erika joins up with them, the number of person's won't increase.
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Old 2013-01-06, 22:30   Link #31565
rogerpepitone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
I disagree about everything being explainable with Rosa. You can fill her in as Beatrice for some parts but thats everything. The only crime she could have comitted hrself in EP 2 was the first one. We have no clue that she ever left Battlers side from then on. I would even go further and claim she is the detective for the 2nd game as battler stopped thinking rationally at some point.
I pointed this out a while back:

1) For the second twilight, Rosa was alone (briefly) while going to find Kinzo. Even then, her story of being with Kinzo is definitely false.

2) Rosa is mentioned as having child-strength sedatives in Episode 3.

3) Rosa is mentioned as making dinner for Battler.

4) When Genji knocks on the parlor door to report finding Nanjo & Kumasawa, he wakes Battler up
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Old 2013-01-07, 01:08   Link #31566
AC-Phoenix
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There was something I forgot when I wrote my post yesterday:

EP 2 Natsuhi's room
Gohda closed the door several times yet it always re-opened.
I think we can take this scene literally.

Think about it: You can only see him closing the door and opening it. You never see him taking the key though so it was probably still in the lock on the outside of the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I pointed this out a while back:

1) For the second twilight, Rosa was alone (briefly) while going to find Kinzo. Even then, her story of being with Kinzo is definitely false.

2) Rosa is mentioned as having child-strength sedatives in Episode 3.

3) Rosa is mentioned as making dinner for Battler.

4) When Genji knocks on the parlor door to report finding Nanjo & Kumasawa, he wakes Battler up
I knew I should have re-read EP 1 and 2 instead of watching it lol.
Then again we got additional hints in the anime...

ad1) I still knew about that one. This and Rosa called the servants furniture is basically what he builds hi claim upon.
ad2) I think it was just something to stop her tantarums

However if you combine 2, 3 and 4 you could guess that Rosa drugged Battler.

The question is though: If Rosa was the Wolf, she could have, as she said, just shot him.
Picking up the line of thought were she pretended to be beatrice for Maria, she could have just told Maria to face the wall again and kill battler off. You would have 2 wolfs and 1 sheep.
I'm also not sure were she made his dinner as several other rooms than the kitchen are suitable for cooking.

Don't misunderstand I could probably make a sound Rosa-culprit theory, yet there is one other rule to this game: Eva must survive.
So we have to find out how she survived in game one and two.
In game 3 Rosa is already dead, yet Beatrice still appears.

I can't deny that Rosa is the only one who could change herself into a believable beatrice though.(A Kyrie save one that is).
Another problem is the part where Batler becomes the head, with Rosa assisting this even before Rudolf. It wouldn't make sense if she was the culprit.

Rosa's motive would however be money, so one still has to explain the sudden love for Battler, otherwise she lacks a motive. And it notably has to be one where she would still be killing Rodulf, while leaving Battler alone and even giving him the 10 tons of gold.




I wish they'd just do Chiro as an anime, that would make things a lot easier to understand...
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Old 2013-01-07, 05:34   Link #31567
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Though don't forget, even if Erika joins up with them, the number of person's won't increase.
Careful, with that you're using the interpretation of Rosatrice. You'd better elaborate before some lost KNM-follower sees it.

"Even if we include you" in the person count, this is explicitly stated, "there are only 17" is basically what tells us that, without her, there are 16 = Shkanon. If you say that she doesn't count to begin with, then this red holds no significance whatsoever.

Yes, I see what you mean (possibly at least). Erika might've not been in the fifth game, instead we had Kanon (and in the 6th we had Erika and not Kanon) as humans (so, because of Erika we still have 17, however it's not necessary that she is the 17th). Though her existence is implied by some red (she does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them) ... similiar to how the chapel doors in EP2 are never checked or the infamous knock there is no red stating "Erika is a human on Rokkenjima right now". So, basically Erika would have Kanon's role of nonexistence in EP5.

Another way to look at it, though I'm not sure (EP5 is my weak point) how important Erika is to keep the red statements together for that episode.

... all this is nice and all, but if Erika wasn't there to begin with, we arguably don't even need to solve the issue of all those parlor-scenes. "There is no detective in EP5" is another theory that tries to deal with Ryukishi's mistake, forgot about it though.

Just be aware that her not couting because "she was dead" is also how Rosatrice explains this red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
The question is though: If Rosa was the Wolf, she could have, as she said, just shot him.
In Rosatrice, she's madly in love with Battler for some odd reason. Why would she shoot him?

Though it bears the question why she'd produce a Beatrice-letter later just to have a reason to throw him out later. Just one of many...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Don't misunderstand I could probably make a sound Rosa-culprit theory, yet there is one other rule to this game: Eva must survive.
According to KNM, this is a lie. Even though we talk about "prime" a whole lot, maybe it doesn't exist in the world of Umineko. According to KNM, the red at the end of EP2, "when the seagulls cry, no one was alive" (where we could argue whether it's really meant to be a red truth and not just... you know... red font and why the hell it'd apply to all the episodes) proves that no one is allowed to survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
In game 3 Rosa is already dead, yet Beatrice still appears.
As I said, George as the secondary culprit was created just because of this. He doesn't do anything in EP1 (under constant surveillance by Battler) and both EP2 and EP4 can still be explained without him (albeit red truth needs some twisting in some cases, but compared to Kyrie-surviving-the-chapel it's nothing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
I disagree about everything being explainable with Rosa.
I don't think so too but if we go with Rosatrice and commit ourselves to it - and only look at the red statements - it's doable in EP1, 2, 4; KNM remembers Knox 2nd only when it's convenient for him anyway. So my point is, George is only necessary for one episode. Basically, because Rosa doesn't work, he had to construct some kind of logic that still works.

Problem is, because he had to fix this, it's already a shackle for the trustworthyness of the theory itself. I mean, anyone can create any number of theories that goings along with the red as soon as we add multiple humans, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
EP 2 Natsuhi's room
Gohda closed the door several times yet it always re-opened.
I think we can take this scene literally.

Think about it: You can only see him closing the door and opening it. You never see him taking the key though so it was probably still in the lock on the outside of the room.
What culprit-theory are you arguing for? Shannon is already inside - Gohda might've tried to unlock the door instead to get out as she starts shooting. And it needs to be a locked room at some point. If Rosa is not allowed to slip out of the parlor without Battler saying anything "out of fear" (c'mon, I was arguing against Rosatrice anyway, cut me some slack ), who took the key then? Sure, maybe Genji did it... but that's some quite heavy accomplice-like behavior, right (regardless who he works for)?

Though Gohda screwing up is always amusing. EP8 provided the hint for your idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
I wish they'd just do Chiro as an anime, that would make things a lot easier to understand...
Hell no, at least not with Studio DEEN producing it. They didn't even get the "anti-fantasy part" of Umineko right... I don't want to imagine how badly they'd screw up the "anti-mystery part".

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-07 at 06:02.
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Old 2013-01-07, 08:41   Link #31568
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Careful, with that you're using the interpretation of Rosatrice. You'd better elaborate before some lost KNM-follower sees it.

"Even if we include you" in the person count, this is explicitly stated, "there are only 17" is basically what tells us that, without her, there are 16 = Shkanon. If you say that she doesn't count to begin with, then this red holds no significance whatsoever.
I might remember it wrong since its already been a few years, but if my memory serves me right the translation said '[...],still no more than 16 [...].
But again it's been a while and I don't have the time to actually replay the VN atm.
You could even take Erika being washed ashore as a general outline for her being a substitute body. Then again, if we got a hint about that most of us probably already forgot about it in the meantime. However, it was implied more than one time that there might be a substitute and Erikas very existence does nothing more than proofing that it is possible to bring a substitute body on the island.
Another thing we shouldn't forget is that there are a lot of wordplays with the words 'people' and 'persons'.
Don't forget that at least one character in this story has a multiple personality disorder, so even if you allow Erika to exist as a living entity she won't necessarily increase the number of persons on the island.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Yes, I see what you mean (possibly at least). Erika might've not been in the fifth game, instead we had Kanon (and in the 6th we had Erika and not Kanon) as humans (so, because of Erika we still have 17, however it's not necessary that she is the 17th). Though her existence is implied by some red (she does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them) ... similiar to how the chapel doors in EP2 are never checked or the infamous knock there is no red stating "Erika is a human on Rokkenjima right now". So, basically Erika would have Kanon's role of nonexistence in EP5.
Again we have the word-play about her existence. Her existence as a living being or a washed ashore corpse? Again it implies the possibility of a substitute body if you take things having happened before the game truly starts as a general outline and thus, granted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
In Rosatrice, she's madly in love with Battler for some odd reason. Why would she shoot him?

Though it bears the question why she'd produce a Beatrice-letter later just to have a reason to throw him out later. Just one of many...
And that is pretty much the problem, KnM always conveniently ignores that he has to give a motive better than 'for some odd reason'.
So to give the Rosatrice guys a little treat(Yeah I'm against rosatrice so I shouldn't do this... but meh more fun like this...): Assume she projected her love for Rudolf onto battler, and go look for a clue that she was in love with Rudolf.
However you still have to explain why she claimed he was a Wolf throwing him out of the parlor. Well the answer is actually right in front of you guys - though for someone who is against Rosatrice I already said too much to help you guys already.
Also don't forget that she was never as man-mad as people claimed. It is shown early that she always tried to get Maria's father to come back to them, who can't be battler since he was nine back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
According to KNM, this is a lie. Even though we talk about "prime" a whole lot, maybe it doesn't exist in the world of Umineko. According to KNM, the red at the end of EP2, "when the seagulls cry, no one was alive" (where we could argue whether it's really meant to be a red truth and not just... you know... red font and why the hell it'd apply to all the episodes) proves that no one is allowed to survive.
The problem is that, in every story, Ange is allowed to live with someone taking care of her in a way that makes her want to solve what happened back then. If it was Kasumi(kyrie's siter) she'd be dead though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
As I said, George as the secondary culprit was created just because of this. He doesn't do anything in EP1 (under constant surveillance by Battler) and both EP2 and EP4 can still be explained without him (albeit red truth needs some twisting in some cases, but compared to Kyrie-surviving-the-chapel it's nothing).


I don't think so too but if we go with Rosatrice and commit ourselves to it - and only look at the red statements - it's doable in EP1, 2, 4; KNM remembers Knox 2nd only when it's convenient for him anyway. So my point is, George is only necessary for one episode. Basically, because Rosa doesn't work, he had to construct some kind of logic that still works.
Aye.
After all Rosa was confirmed dead in several games.
As long as culprits don't change this rules her out as the sole devious entity as there were other deaths after her's.
Again assuming the culprit is the same every time the murders in the 2nd game could have only happened using Genji as accomplice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Problem is, because he had to fix this, it's already a shackle for the trustworthyness of the theory itself. I mean, anyone can create any number of theories that goings along with the red as soon as we add multiple humans, right?
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
What culprit-theory are you arguing for? Shannon is already inside - Gohda might've tried to unlock the door instead to get out as she starts shooting. And it needs to be a locked room at some point. If Rosa is not allowed to slip out of the parlor without Battler saying anything "out of fear" (c'mon, I was arguing against Rosatrice anyway, cut me some slack ), who took the key then? Sure, maybe Genji did it... but that's some quite heavy accomplice-like behavior, right (regardless who he works for)?
Though Gohda screwing up is always amusing. EP8 provided the hint for your idea.
I'm not really arguing for any culprit atm. While my first guess on Umineko was 'Shanon' for some weird reason as soon as I understood that it was supposed to be a mystery, Yasu/Shanon is seemingly not the right answer. Though I remember a Uraneko episode with a letter saying 'Yasu is the killer'
It was not EP 8 how I got the idea btw. I remembered a translated Ryukishi interview stating that there were additional, visual only, hints in the anime and re-watched it. I have yet to read EP 8, which I don't really want to do as the outcome changes according to mini games and other player behavior.

As said, you only saw those 3 persons enter the room, you never saw someone taking the key though, so it probably rested in the lock. Now there are only two ways to unlock the door after Gohda locked it from inside:
Either using the Master keys which's locations are unknown to us, due to the fact that Battler was apparently sleeping for some time so Rosa could have either used them herself or let Genji use them. And Rosa is not absolutely forbidden to leave the room. She is however forbidden to leave the parlor for more than the time it takes to get to a toilet and back. Otherwise she'd take the risk that battler would wake up. Even if you assume that she drugged him using the tantrum medicine, you must not forget that the one in question is designed for children, not for adults.

Back o Natsuhi's room though:
For the following scenario lets, for the sake of the argument, assume Rosa is the culprit anyway for a second. In this case she would be represented by Asmodeus and Beatirice (Asmodeus and Rosa have a similar Hair style, Rosa and Beatrice similar hair color)

Now there are a few ways to kill someone as big as Gohda.. :
1 Using a stake up close
2 Using a gun shooting through the
3 Using device X to shoot the stakes

ad1) The nice thing about those stakes is that they are almost never pulled out. The idea in letting them in instead of taking them with you afterwards is that not taking them out results in less blood splashing out of the body.
However, some of it would still stain her dress, even if its just a small amount. She would have to change dresses in order for battler to not see the bloodstain, requiring an extended amount of time since she needs the guesthouse to change clothes.
Maria is not a problem here since she was shown to listen to her mother when told to stay somewhere quite openly and several times too.
However even if she managed to get to the guesthouse and change clothes you would still have to take the storm into account, so even if she did somehow manage to make it back in time she'd be soaking wet. And even if she would have used an umbrella she would have still left footprints on the floor due to her shoes being dirty/wet
The other problem is that it is unlikely that she'd manage to kill 3 people at the same time that way.
ad2) The door was still intact, no hint was given that this was not the case.
ad3) Knox 4th
You see no matter how much opportunity she has, she couldn't have done it without battler noticing. She is also not the only one who could have placed the latter there as the room was never truly inspected for people being in there already.



Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Hell no, at least not with Studio DEEN producing it. They didn't even get the "anti-fantasy part" of Umineko right... I don't want to imagine how badly they'd screw up the "anti-mystery part".
TbH I don't care if its deen or someone else.
I'm after the visual clues that will most likely arise from there.
Because there is one thing no one can really explain without arguments having more holes than a sponge: The letter and the knock.
Even if you hide in the mansion as Erika said, you still need to get out of the (locked) mansion afterwards.
The next problem is the time of the knocking itself, even with visuals there would be no way to confirm it really happened at 12 am with the way the red is built. it actually implies that the knock happened before 12 am, which brings us back to the problem of not getting out of the mansion afterwards.

Edit: huge oversight on my part due to not having read EP 8:

Rules for purple truth:
The definition of 'culprit' is 'one who murders'.
■ It is possible for a culprit to lie.
■ It is possible for a culprit to lie even before committing murder.
■ Characters who are not culprits only speak the truth.
■ Characters who are not culprits may not cooperate with a culprit.
■ A culprit must carry out all murders directly, by their own hands.
■ A culprit must not die.
■ A culprit must be among the characters appearing in the story.
■ Purple statements are as absolute as red truths. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements.
■ Outside of spoken statements, there are no lies in the narration.

Now some red and see who can suddenly lie using purple:

No, it is possible. A 'culprit' is defined as 'one who murders'. It never says that they have to murder someone who appears in the story. ......In other words. If George committed murder outside the island, sometime before this crime, he could be a 'culprit' without killing anyone on the island, and it would be possible for him to lie.
It wasn't a suicide, it wasn't an accidental death, it wasn't a death by illness! I really was killed by you, Battler-san!!!
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Old 2013-01-07, 09:38   Link #31569
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Now there are a few ways to kill someone as big as Gohda.. :
1 Using a stake up close
2 Using a gun shooting through the
3 Using device X to shoot the stakes
Staking doesn't work, you can't actually get a good enough grip on them. "Our Confession" implies that the victims are shot and then the stake is inserted in the wound.

And really, in theory all your musings about Battler not sleeping long enough... we're talking Ryukishi, the "food trolley traveling to Kinzo's room over multiple stairs" and "people not getting wet in the rain" Ryukishi. Let's not go into too much detail. Battler might've just fallen asleep naturally anyway - lack of information.
Quite ironic how we're constructing a Rosatrice solution for this case to actually criticise Rosatrice.

I always assumed that Genji (who received the letter before from Shannon) gave the letter to Maria while Rosa and Battler were distracted with Natsuhi's room. Considering that those two were also possible candidates for the "letter in Kinzo's room" in EP1 it wouldn't be too outlandish.

Regarding the knock: a possible way of looking at is ... there was no knock. None of the reds actually confirm this, just that it was impossible for everyone. The narrative we saw is basically just this: everyone agreed that they heard a knock. But nobody actually did knock. Everyone agreed that the letter was placed outside. Everyone agreed that a witch did it. Everyone agreed that Shannon is not Beatrice.
That's the lie everyone is creating together, like a big happy family. It's so convenient when there is no detective around.

But as I said, EP5 is my weak point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
While my first guess on Umineko was 'Shanon' for some weird reason as soon as I understood that it was supposed to be a mystery, Yasu/Shanon is seemingly not the right answer.
The probability of Shkanon being the intened solution is quite high.

Of course, due to the nature of how Chiru worked, different interpretations to many events are still possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
The problem is that, in every story, Ange is allowed to live with someone taking care of her in a way that makes her want to solve what happened back then. If it was Kasumi(kyrie's siter) she'd be dead though.
Well, that's the thing, KNM claims that a lot of Ange and Chiru is a flat out lie to deceive those that are not "the chosen ones" (yes, he said that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
I might remember it wrong since its already been a few years, but if my memory serves me right the translation said '[...],still no more than 16 [...].
Wrong. "no more than 17" and "even with you [Erika], there are only 17" is what we're working with. Technically speaking, despite implying that there are only 16, it's never actually reduced to that number. And as you saw yourself, because of that other interpretations than Shkanon are possible due to Erika's odd kind-of-existence.

If the number of people had been proclaimed as being 16, we wouldn't discuss any of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
It was not EP 8 how I got the idea btw. I remembered a translated Ryukishi interview stating that there were additional, visual only, hints in the anime and re-watched it. I have yet to read EP 8, which I don't really want to do as the outcome changes according to mini games and other player behavior.
I was just making a joke, don't worry. Basically, Gohda screws up in a magic scene. And it's the only thing he did over the entirety of Chiru.



You should read EP8 before using purple truth. It is questionable whether it even applies or is just something Bern made up for her little game (and thus doesn't count for any other game). Don't misunderstand. If purple truth applies however, it would destroy any way for George to be a culprit (since he can only kill children and Maria is still alive at the end). But Yasu has many accomplices herself, some of them can't even kill by the way of the red.

edit: Ah yes, one of the reds Erika used? You shouldn't take this one out of context. Really... just read EP8 before commenting on any of it, generally neither Bern's game nor her purple truth are seen as "canon" for the other episodes (just like the EP7 TP isn't "canon" for Beato's games). At least now I know where you are coming from with your arguments about accomplices.

So, basically, purple truth would make both KNM's Rosatrice (even if George "was a culprit" due to some murder in the past, he still can't kill anyone else than children... Maria said this in purple, are you gonna say that she killed someone in the past?) and Shkanon pretty impossible. It gets even worse if we add the "culprit rules" as well:

Rosatrice would fall apart at Kanon's murder (Nanjo not being an accomplice ... he can't even be one; arguably even the 1st twilight might be impossible in that case), Shkanon already in the 1st twilight (Hideyoshi can't lie about seeing Shannons corpse then). And the further you go, the more problems arise. Unless of course everyone is a murderer from some event in the past (with the exception of Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo due to the red truth that they are not murderers) but that kinda defeats the point then.
Heck, even before any murders happen... NatKrauShaKaKumaGenJo constantly lie about Kinzo too. And by the rules of purple truth and a red statement, that's impossible for three of them... scratch that, four of them: it has been confirmed that Natsuhi is not the culprit in EP5, even though she killed someone in the past (the servant with the child).

See why purple truth and the associated rules are generally not seen as significant outside of Bern's game?

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-07 at 11:07.
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Old 2013-01-07, 15:06   Link #31570
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Don't forget that at least one character in this story has a multiple personality disorder, so even if you allow Erika to exist as a living entity she won't necessarily increase the number of persons on the island.
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
I'm not really arguing for any culprit atm. While my first guess on Umineko was 'Shanon' for some weird reason as soon as I understood that it was supposed to be a mystery, Yasu/Shanon is seemingly not the right answer. Though I remember a Uraneko episode with a letter saying 'Yasu is the killer'.
"The culprit is Yasu" is actually a meme that long pre-dates Umineko.
Spoiler for TV Tropes says:
Actually it's interesting that the 'Yasu' of this old game is the person through which you interact with the world. It's very similar to Umineko in that way (and probably intentionally so).

Ryukishi says repeatedly in his interviews that he didn't want to make the answer to his story something that could just be copied and pasted on the internet, and I'm sure that when he says this he's got the "The culprit is Yasu" spoiler-meme in mind.

Anyway, a common point of view in this community is that Yasu presents herself as the culprit through the stories, but isn't really the culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Staking doesn't work, you can't actually get a good enough grip on them. "Our Confession" implies that the victims are shot and then the stake is inserted in the wound.
Yes. Also in Alliance, when Battler is investigating all the corpses he finds the idea that the stakes themselves could have been effective weapons to be pretty ridiculous.
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Old 2013-01-07, 15:36   Link #31571
qno2
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Ah, nice to know why "Yasu" as a name caused to much laughter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Anyway, a common point of view in this community is that Yasu presents herself as the culprit through the stories, but isn't really the culprit.
Just noticed something interesting in that regard and it reminded me of that imageboard (seacats.com or something) where dozens of Rosatrice followers fell without Shkanon followers even saying anything. Specifically, it reminds me of a certain little monologue:

Spoiler for Monologue of a former Rosatrice follower:


If we look at Bern's game it's quite amusing how

■ Outside of spoken statements, there are no lies in the narration.

The complete opposite from Beato's games, where the narration is clearly lying to us (too). Now consider these three rules Bern had in her little game:

■ It is possible for a culprit to lie.
■ It is possible for a culprit to lie even before committing murder.
■ Characters who are not culprits only speak the truth.

So... who is the narration, who speaks to us then? If anything, the author. I propose that the author him-/herself is the culprit and thus allowed to lie to us, though he/she might've not been a culprit YET.

Guess you could draw one of two conclusions from this:

a) Either, both Yasu and Tohya might've done something in Prime. They are culprits and can lie. If you don't have an issue with assuming Yasu did something, it might connect Bern's game a bit more with the overall story. Or, if EP1 and EP2 were written after 1986, based upon Yasu's original scripts from before 1986, maybe just Tohya.
b) Might just refer to the self-insert of the author being the culprit in the stories, though this could then only refer to the "original author", since Tohya was the Detective for four episodes. Even though his role changed a tad in EP5 and EP6, sure.

Not saying that this means anything really. It's just a nice little coincidence I suppose.

Well then, Ryukishi. What did you do? Since you are the biggest liar through which the lesser liar Yasu lies to us?

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-07 at 16:31.
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Old 2013-01-07, 18:16   Link #31572
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Hell no, at least not with Studio DEEN producing it. They didn't even get the "anti-fantasy part" of Umineko right... I don't want to imagine how badly they'd screw up the "anti-mystery part".
Personally I would like to have an anime as I like to have a visual of the scenes (which is why I so love the manga). I doubt someone else that's not DEEN will even produce it but there's to say I would prefer the anime for Chiru to be done better than the one we have...

Also, to be honest, since Umineko was the first part of mystery it was something that was pretty difficult to be turned into an animation which, for time reasons, needed to cut scenes. It would have needed Ryukishi supervising everything and telling them what thye could and could not cut.
And I don't know about the first episodes but I think even if it's possible he was supervising it in the beginning, by the time we reached the end he wasn't doing it anymore. Ep 4 ending is... -_-

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
So... who is the narration, who speaks to us then? If anything, the author. I propose that the author him-/herself is the culprit and thus allowed to lie to us, though he/she might've not been a culprit YET.

Guess you could draw one of two conclusions from this:

a) Either, both Yasu and Tohya might've done something in Prime. They are culprits and can lie. If you don't have an issue with assuming Yasu did something, it might connect Bern's game a bit more with the overall story. Or, if EP1 and EP2 were written after 1986, based upon Yasu's original scripts from before 1986, maybe just Tohya.
b) Might just refer to the self-insert of the author being the culprit in the stories, though this could then only refer to the "original author", since Tohya was the Detective for four episodes. Even though his role changed a tad in EP5 and EP6, sure.

Not saying that this means anything really. It's just a nice little coincidence I suppose.

Well then, Ryukishi. What did you do? Since you are the biggest liar through which the lesser liar Yasu lies to us?
Well, the narrator in Ep 1-4 fantasy scenes is likely Beato who's claiming to be the culprit (and he piece and double is the culprit on the gameboard) so, of course, she's lying. I won't tie this to her being culprit in Prime though she likely did something that set in motion what lead to the Rokkenjima incident.
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Old 2013-01-07, 18:32   Link #31573
qno2
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Personally I would like to have an anime as I like to have a visual of the scenes (which is why I so love the manga). I doubt someone else that's not DEEN will even produce it but there's to say I would prefer the anime for Chiru to be done better than the one we have...

Also, to be honest, since Umineko was the first part of mystery it was something that was pretty difficult to be turned into an animation which, for time reasons, needed to cut scenes. It would have needed Ryukishi supervising everything and telling them what thye could and could not cut.
And I don't know about the first episodes but I think even if it's possible he was supervising it in the beginning, by the time we reached the end he wasn't doing it anymore. Ep 4 ending is... -_-
Ufotable adaptation, now! For me the issues started before the actual mystery: it was destined to kinda failtrain when they skipped most of the exposition, as long-winded as it is. "Who the hell is Gohda" is what I asked in EP2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
Well, the narrator in Ep 1-4 fantasy scenes is likely Beato who's claiming to be the culprit (and he piece and double is the culprit on the gameboard) so, of course, she's lying. I won't tie this to her being culprit in Prime though she likely did something that set in motion what lead to the Rokkenjima incident.
First and foremost the narrator would be the author, though Meta-Beato is rather closely tied to that postion anyway (depending on how you interpret her). Fair enough though, it's a matter on how much "love" or "baseless trust" you have for Yasu; personally I don't see her as much of a crazed prime-culprit myself. Regardless whether you choose a) or b), because of this, she can lie all the damn time without breaking the rules that... probably don't apply to anything outside of Bern's game to begin with. Progress!

As always, it all is so ambigious than any contrived interpretation can kinda work. Uuu~! Magic~!
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Old 2013-01-08, 00:10   Link #31574
Kealym
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
The forehead smashing stake on Natsuhi's night table was what I thought the commonly accepted theory was.

I still don't know how she managed to kill herself in EP4 though now that I think about it...
Is forehead-smashing really the consensus? We're told several times about how difficult it'd be to drive a the conically shaped staked through a skull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Thought so too but... hey, I didn't want to go too much off-topic now.

In EP4: assuming that the grate is large enough for medium-sized objects to fall through it's just a pretty simple trick:
I don't remember the specific number, but Battler described the grate as having bars like 15cm apart or something close - that's more than enough room for a gun to fall through. In fact, it's even better than the EP2 Natsuhi's room case, because with the well the gun will certainly never be found, whereas in Natsuhi's room you just have to sort of hope he doesn't search everywhere (Rosa was probably instructed to prevent that, as described in our Confessions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
The others had fought.

I think Kyrie is just a sham, and is not as mentally prepared to carry out a mass murder as shown in Ep7 and 8.
As has been stated, she totally did fight back. She tried to fight the Siesta's in the Dining Hall, and then fought a few goats with Krauss. When the fought the stakes, it helps that she was armed, and the magic narrative had switched from "guns are totally useless" to "guns will rip through fantasy creatures like wet tissue'. And she slowed down time in EP6, too


Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Don't misunderstand I could probably make a sound Rosa-culprit theory, yet there is one other rule to this game: Eva must survive.

I wish they'd just do Chiro as an anime, that would make things a lot easier to understand...
1. Eva's survival is just not even a rule, at all.
2. I dunno, a Chiru adaptation would be really hard to pull off well, since the plot becomes much more layered and hard to keep track of (lol, Chick-Beato suddenly popping into Featherine's study to read the old gameboards). I would recommend the manga, which is ALSO supposed to add more hints, and clears up several issues (for example, it's WAY WAY WAY clearer in the manga that Battler only witnessed 5 bodies in the shed, in legend)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Don't forget that at least one character in this story has a multiple personality disorder, so even if you allow Erika to exist as a living entity she won't necessarily increase the number of persons on the island.
Lambda says in red that Erika does increase it by one person, though.
Also, Yasu ... does not have multiple personality disorder. Like, it's a verbal shorthand to kind of describe the situation, but I wouldn't call it MPD, at all.

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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
It is shown early that she always tried to get Maria's father to come back to them, who can't be battler since he was nine back then.
That was shown?

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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
The problem is that, in every story, Ange is allowed to live with someone taking care of her in a way that makes her want to solve what happened back then. If it was Kasumi(kyrie's siter) she'd be dead though.
Not necessarily. In worlds where Eva dies, she'd almost certainly end up with the Sumadera's (she was staying with Kyrie's parents during the conference after all, IIRC). And, she wouldn't have the same suspicions of the Sumadera's as she does of Eva, about why her other relatives died. There'd also be no need to kill her, because 1. They'd already control her inheritance until she came of age and 2. The Ushiromiya's were relatively broke in 1986, anyways - there's a lot less money that could even be stolen from her.

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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Because there is one thing no one can really explain without arguments having more holes than a sponge: The letter and the knock.
There was no knock, or letter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Edit: huge oversight on my part due to not having read EP 8:

Rules for purple truth:
Are you trying to apply the rules of Bern's game to the entire story? I ... dunno if i'd recommend that.
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Old 2013-01-08, 00:45   Link #31575
AC-Phoenix
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You could interpret it in a way that there has never been a letter yes, but you forgot that Battler still had the head ring wich was inside the envelope. The
red truth also heavily implies that it actually existed:
And none of them misinterpreted a knocking sound. Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were not involved with the knock. No one else existed inside the mansion. And that knock refers to the action of standing directly in front of a door and hitting it with a hand.



People tend to overlook that no one ever states in red that the letter was placed there at 2400 or that someone knocked at that time.
All the reds you get is where people have been at that time.

The wording 'the clock struck twelve' and not 'it was 12 am' So it could have actually been 2200 it could have also been 1900, no one ever says what time it actually was. I already read that part of the manga btw.

@Berns game:
I think we should ignore her solution, not the entire game though.

@qno2
No you can take it out of context in this case - if you combine it with the other one. You can interpret it as 'even in the Meta world'. It doesn't have to mean that he is the actual culprit just that he is allowed to lie using purple now.
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Old 2013-01-08, 02:18   Link #31576
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym
Is forehead-smashing really the consensus? We're told several times about how difficult it'd be to drive a the conically shaped staked through a skull.
It's the power and determination of love!

Otherwise the problem arises how she hid the weapon from the all-seeing eye of our incompetent detective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
but you forgot that Battler still had the head ring wich was inside the envelope. The
red truth also heavily implies that it actually existed
And it has been very heavily implied that the chapel door was locked in EP2. And? It wasn't. They didn't misinterpret a "similiar" sound for knocking because neither the knock nor a similiar sound existed.

It just means that everyone is covering Shannon, who gave the ring to Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
No you can take it out of context in this case - if you combine it with the other one. You can interpret it as 'even in the Meta world'. It doesn't have to mean that he is the actual culprit just that he is allowed to lie using purple now.
And what would that accomplish? Especially because Bern's rules probably don't apply outside her game anyway? And because you acknowledged yourself that the result doesn't matter too much? His purple statements aren't too exciting; actually the only general statement is "as if Maria could kill someone. Maria-chan couldn't kill anyone." Everything else relates to game-specific stuff (what was locked, who was dead, etc.).

If anything, it means that a second solution to Bern's game is possible, although not intended, which mirrors the main story. Maybe the Japanese fan base had their own Rosatrice.

Maybe you meant it that way to begin with, sure. Sorry in that case.

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-08 at 02:41.
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Old 2013-01-08, 03:32   Link #31577
AC-Phoenix
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
And it has been very heavily implied that the chapel door was locked in EP2. And? It wasn't. They didn't misinterpret a "similiar" sound for knocking because neither the knock nor a similiar sound existed.

It just means that everyone is covering Shannon, who gave the ring to Battler.
It wasn't implied that way using a red though.
I don't say its impossible, its a sound explaination after all. Though it imho breaks apart at the point where everyone straight out suepects Natsuhi instead of Shanon if she gave the Ring to Battler. People would start questioning why she had the ring in the first place.
No matter if she comes clear or not at this point she automatically becomes a suspect.
Yet no one, including Battler who would know about Shanon's true self from that point on, ever suspected her. Not even for a second so they could realize afterwards that it couldn't have been her.
Again I don't say its impossible. Yet casts suspicion on Shanon.
Another reason why I won't give the letter up so easily is because its probably the same way the leetters in the other games were placed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
And what would that accomplish? Especially because Bern's rules probably don't apply outside her game anyway? And because you acknowledged yourself that the result doesn't matter too much? His purple statements aren't too exciting; actually the only general statement is "as if Maria could kill someone. Maria-chan couldn't kill anyone." Everything else relates to game-specific stuff (what was locked, who was dead, etc.).

If anything, it means that a second solution to Bern's game is possible, although not intended, which mirrors the main story. Maybe the Japanese fan base had their own Rosatrice.

Maybe you meant it that way to begin with, sure. Sorry in that case.
The point is if you start arguing about Bern's game you can ignore all Bern-reds in game 5 too. After all The only one who should have been allowed to use reds in game 5 was Lamda, yet we saw Bern using reds as if she was the game master, and Lamda accepted them simply to troll.

Don't forget Beato had a point there, that she can't prove no on left the room - Due to Beato's rule that red is simply the truth she couldn't deny Bern though.
However Beato never misused the reds in such a way.

Actually, you would have to start doubting several red just like this one here:

And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00
The room was not sealed by Erika who has the right to seal a room perfectly but by Eva - so Genji could still leave the room for a short while using the window. This red is therefore not airtight, lamda simply accepted it as the truth and thats how it was possible to become the truth(implied by battler that it works this way).
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Old 2013-01-08, 07:18   Link #31578
qno2
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Again I don't say its impossible. Yet casts suspicion on Shanon.
Another reason why I won't give the letter up so easily is because its probably the same way the leetters in the other games were placed.
Luckily for Shannon, Erika was constantly aiming for Natsuhi anyway and leading the entire discussion.

And the 2nd twilight cast some quite HEAVY suspicion on Natsuhi. Nobody has enough "love" for her to "see" that she was set up.

But yes, this point is an issue for just about anything regarding Shkanon inside the stories (in prime we could argue that it didn't actually happen anyway), how are you going to hide that for too long? There are some ways to justify that, but... overall, it leaves you wondering.

Besides, from a pure gameboard perspective without meta-knowledge Eva helped Shannon with the seal on Genji's room.



Something about EP5 could be added though... we don't have any confirmation whether the phone calls even happened (or matter beyond being a hint for us towards Shkanon). Possibly they served only one goal, to justify Natsuhi's behavior, and are actually magic scenes. She was supposed to be framed as the culprit from the get go, so if Lambda wants, she, as the "current author" could make Natsuhi do whatever she fancies. So, on the pure gameboard level, Natsuhi actually doesn't have a reason to leave the conference, she doesn't have a reason to go into the closet. She did it because the plot needed it to happen; the magic scenes with the phone call are supposed to justify it (and are actually impossible for Shkanon, causing much grief).

I mean, it's quite literally shown how Lambda, the author, calls Natsuhi: "hey d00d, it's me, your god. I need you to do something. Why? Erm, why don't we include your backstory in this then? Alright? K, thx."

Hints? The difference between meta-world and gameboard is especially thin in this episode, with arguments switching between those two layers and seemingly happening at the same time. If you carry this over to how the rest of the gameboard-narrative was treated, maybe it truly doesn't make sense and was barely glossed over. "Who cares whether the actions of each character make sense as long as the readers get a mystery to solve?" So nobody suspected Shannon because of this; just not part of the script.

Though maybe this is just another way of saying: Tohya/Ryukishi suck at writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00
The room was not sealed by Erika who has the right to seal a room perfectly but by Eva - so Genji could still leave the room for a short while using the window. This red is therefore not airtight, lamda simply accepted it as the truth and thats how it was possible to become the truth(implied by battler that it works this way).
Definitely, Battler himself mentioned that they're bending logic for their own gains. Still, the red has been said and nobody called "logic error", though somebody should probably call the witch-police.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
The point is if you start arguing about Bern's game you can ignore all Bern-reds in game 5 too. After all The only one who should have been allowed to use reds in game 5 was Lamda, yet we saw Bern using reds as if she was the game master, and Lamda accepted them simply to troll.
It all boils down on whether the game is the same "canon" as Beato's games. Bern's game was doing the same as the EP7 TP - something completely different from Beato's happened. They are just as likely for prime as Beato's games are (or, let's say, as likely as EP3), but we can't necessarily say that they have a whole lot to do with them, except the general outline of the plot and the characters. Actually, no, the likelihood of Bern's game for prime is less than EP3 or EP7 TP.

Though you have a point, someone here mentioned it not too long ago: Lambda wasn't allowed to change the characters too much, she could only make them do what they're capable of (though, it probably means more something along the lines of "what the readers in prime think they're capable of"), so why would Bern be able to ignore this for her game? Of course, due to the rise of the Rudolf-family-culprit theory 'everybody' in prime thought that it totally makes sense for those three to be ballsin' crazy and greedy.

Some justify the overall weirdness of EP5 with "fanfiction" so there you go. It's still considered to be more true to Beato's games as Berns for some odd reason.

Only the game master is allowed to use red? Does this make Ange's red truth about being Battler's brother any less true? Or the red both Bern and Lambda dropped in the EP4 "????" ? Virgilia's red about Natsuhi? All the various people using red in EP6?

Spoiler for Bern's game, purple, red, culprit rules in relation to Beato's game:

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-08 at 09:03.
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Old 2013-01-08, 09:33   Link #31579
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Is forehead-smashing really the consensus? We're told several times about how difficult it'd be to drive a the conically shaped staked through a skull.
No way it is as the solution that Ryukishi gave is different.

Quote:
K Still, the locked room in Natsuhiís chamber is a special case. If Shannon actually committed suicide, there is nobody who can get rid of the weapon. If you think of Genji finalizing that, then it just happens smoothly, butÖhmm *laugh*.

R Because we have come so far, I think I can give you an answer, though it is basically the same trick as with the well. Shannon died face down, slumped over the makeup cabinet. Itís a really simple trick. You tie the weapon to a heavy object with a string, then you throw the heavy object behind the cabinet. And then itís the classic trick, when you commit suicide, the gun is pulled behind the cabinet towards the heavy object.

K So thatís how it went?!

R I thought, because you solved the riddle of the well as well, that you would get this trick without any problem. I especially wrote that she was Ąslumped over, face down, over the makeup cabinetď. And while the other two in the room were actually pierced by the stakes, Shannon was not. That is why you can imagine her being the last to die in that room, because there was nobody left to insert the stake into the gunwound. There was never a full inspection of that special room, so that means that the weapon was left within it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
2. I dunno, a Chiru adaptation would be really hard to pull off well, since the plot becomes much more layered and hard to keep track of (lol, Chick-Beato suddenly popping into Featherine's study to read the old gameboards). I would recommend the manga, which is ALSO supposed to add more hints, and clears up several issues (for example, it's WAY WAY WAY clearer in the manga that Battler only witnessed 5 bodies in the shed, in legend)
The manga is definitely a must read, expecially EP 8 which is in my opinion way better than the visual novel in terms of plot, explanations and also emotional involvement.

The manga deals much better with Beato and Natsuhi's relation, with Kyrie's surprise and pain at discovering the truth about Battler, with Rosa's past and her relation with Maria, even with Kinzo and Genji's relation. Ep 8 manga version is definitely awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Lambda says in red that Erika does increase it by one person, though.
Also, Yasu ... does not have multiple personality disorder. Like, it's a verbal shorthand to kind of describe the situation, but I wouldn't call it MPD, at all
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Not necessarily. In worlds where Eva dies, she'd almost certainly end up with the Sumadera's (she was staying with Kyrie's parents during the conference after all, IIRC). And, she wouldn't have the same suspicions of the Sumadera's as she does of Eva, about why her other relatives died. There'd also be no need to kill her, because 1. They'd already control her inheritance until she came of age and 2. The Ushiromiya's were relatively broke in 1986, anyways - there's a lot less money that could even be stolen from her.
Well, she might come to hate them anyway as they aren't exactly a nice family and the public might come up with a conspiration theory... like the Sumadera sending a killer there, one the police never found or that somehow ended up dying as well.
LOL, maybe they could even claim Erika was the Sumadera's killer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
You could interpret it in a way that there has never been a letter yes, but you forgot that Battler still had the head ring wich was inside the envelope. The
red truth also heavily implies that it actually existed:
And none of them misinterpreted a knocking sound. Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were not involved with the knock. No one else existed inside the mansion. And that knock refers to the action of standing directly in front of a door and hitting it with a hand.
No, the trick is that no knock existed which is why no one misinterpreted a knocking sound, because there was none. They lied about it and lied about how Battler got the ring. Probably the ring was handed to him but in exchange Beato asked his complicity in a plan to 'unveil Natsuhi's lies', the adults agreed to it and Battler found himself forced to take part to it.
Shannon might have not revealed her true identity or the whole truth about Kinzo's death, she might have just offered cooperation and added things like 'madam tells me to say I saw the master but actually it's years from the last I saw it... but i'm just a servant and this is no proof the master is 'vanished'... though master was so kind I want to help you all to find out the truth...'

Also, the solution for the knok is 'given' in a tip, in which a 'mysterious' envelope was supposed to be handed in the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
It wasn't implied that way using a red though.
I don't say its impossible, its a sound explaination after all. Though it imho breaks apart at the point where everyone straight out suepects Natsuhi instead of Shanon if she gave the Ring to Battler. People would start questioning why she had the ring in the first place.
For this she can have a perfectly reasonable explanation like she had found it in Kinzo's room, where Kinzo is supposed to be but she's not seeing him by years although she'd been told to say she did.

She was getting suspicious and since Battler solved the epitaph she thought that Kinzo would have him to have the ring.

Another possibility is that Battler was handed the solution of the epitaph and the ring by 'someone' and was asked to fake finding the solution. Then this someone instructed them about how they should tell they got the ring.

Or else Shannon said she found the mysterious envelope in front of her door and she preferred to hand it to... Eva or Rudolf instead than Natsuhi but she's afraid if this were to come up Natsuhi would blame her so could they please tell her the envelope was found in a different way?

Really, there's dozens of way to deliver the envelope to the siblings while looking innocent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
The point is if you start arguing about Bern's game you can ignore all Bern-reds in game 5 too. After all The only one who should have been allowed to use reds in game 5 was Lamda, yet we saw Bern using reds as if she was the game master, and Lamda accepted them simply to troll.

Don't forget Beato had a point there, that she can't prove no on left the room - Due to Beato's rule that red is simply the truth she couldn't deny Bern though.
However Beato never misused the reds in such a way.

Actually, you would have to start doubting several red just like this one here:

And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00
The room was not sealed by Erika who has the right to seal a room perfectly but by Eva - so Genji could still leave the room for a short while using the window. This red is therefore not airtight, lamda simply accepted it as the truth and thats how it was possible to become the truth(implied by battler that it works this way).
The red as an advantage. If you try to say something in red and this red isn't true you won't manage to say it. It happened to Battler and Beato in Ep 4.
So we know that Bern's red is true merely because she can say it.

Theoretically Bern could have found out the culprit just by trying to say in red X is the culprit replacing with X the name of each person on the island until she would manage to say the full sentence in red. Then she would know she had the culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Something about EP5 could be added though... we don't have any confirmation whether the phone calls even happened
I'm sure one phonecall was confirmed in red by Lambda as something that really happened. In the manga when the scene in which the phonecall is done Lambda is dressed up as 'mystery man' to play on the fact that the caller is unknown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Definitely, Battler himself mentioned that they're bending logic for their own gains. Still, the red has been said and nobody called "logic error", though somebody should probably call the witch-police.
The problem in Ep 5 is that a lot of things happen off screen so they seem pretty sudden. The reader didn't know the detective put tape on the door, that stayed awake all the night to check on Battler's room, that used also scientific methods to check some stuffs and so on.

Everything seems very similar to a Sherlock Holmes tale where the reader only know that Holmes lowered is gaze before hearing Holmes going into a detailed description of how the culprit should be and then, when Watson asks how Holmes knows, we get lot of details like how Holmes saw there were footprints on the ground and how studing them he could say this and that and how the air smelled of this and that and so on.

In short the competition between Holmes and the reader is lost by the beginning because the reader has way less hints than Holmes to make deductions however the reader doesn't care as we deem Holmes reliable.

Erika is the same as Holmes as she has at her hands lot of extra hints however we don't judge her reliable so we wonder if the fingertips she found and identified as... let's say Battler, are really Battler or she lied and Bern is providing her a fake red truth so that they can trap Natsuhi.

I think Bern's red truth is true, the trick is they're using it to force an interpretation that will show Natsuhi is the culprit.

It's like when they showed that Kinzo was in Natsuhi's bed.

All the red truths about Kinzo not being in the other places were true but the final deduction was obviously a lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Setting aside the last red there, the real problem are Bern's rules for culprits and accomplices in conjunction with Nanjo's purple. Because neither Rosatrice nor Shkanon can work without him (or false proclamations of death in general), according to those rules he would need to be a culprit ('one who murders') as well, but the red from EP4 claims that he isn't a murderer.
Well, technically you could use Erika's reasoning and say that Nanjo killed someone in some other place that's not Rokkenjima. Therefore he's a murderer.... just not of the people in Rokkenjima.

This allows also Natsuhi to lie as she killed the servant.

And since in Umineko you can kill a personality and even a plushie...

this allow Rosa to lie as she killed Sakutarou, Maria as she killed Rosa many times in her head, Kyrie as she killed Asumu in her head many times. And probably everyone else because since the definition of death and killing is too lose likely just by stepping on a bug you become a murderer.

Though I don't think the purple statements are supposed to be applied to all the games. Bern made them to make things simpler and just for her game. I doubt they'll work in the others (and if you provide George with a gun he can kill an adult with no problems... actually likely he could kill one even without it, just with one of his kick).
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Old 2013-01-08, 10:37   Link #31580
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
No way it is as the solution that Ryukishi gave is different.
Ah, shows what I know for barely reading any interviews. Hint: not a whole lot. Nothing surprising, I just thought that Shkanon would be more of a perfectionist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
I'm sure one phonecall was confirmed in red by Lambda as something that really happened. In the manga when the scene in which the phonecall is done Lambda is dressed up as 'mystery man' to play on the fact that the caller is unknown.
The only red that refers to that would be, as far as I could tell (... going through that list is painful, my eyes damn it...)

When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room. Could be anything, really. Sure, there was a call. Maybe not even for Natsuhi, Genji just transferred to somewhere - maybe those in the cousins room received their "orders" from the parlor-group or whatever happened in EP5 to begin with.
Why wouldn't they just dial the number of the guest-house directly? Well, there goes this idea I suppose, at least now I can claim that "shoddy narrative" is an actual argument for my cause.

And Lambda doing that call, even if she's dressed up... is basically what I'm saying, and it has been shown in the VN too. So hey, we haven't had some gratuitous blue lately. The mystery man doesn't even exist on the gameboard and is just author interference to keep the narrative together via intertwining magic and reality on the gameboard. From a pure non-magical standpoint, Natsuhi just happens to decide hiding in that particular closet would be a swell idea. This author doesn't care about the story but just wants to present a convoluted mystery without heart.
The above would be a fitting criticsm for the mystery genre, all things considered.

Far-fetched? Sure, just screwing around, don't mind me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
I think Bern's red truth is true, the trick is they're using it to force an interpretation that will show Natsuhi is the culprit.
That's what bending logic is all about. Just think back how we got Kyrie out of the chapel in EP2 via bending the red statements and adding loads of assumptions with no basis whatsoever.

Those were the days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
Well, technically you could use Erika's reasoning and say that Nanjo killed someone in some other place that's not Rokkenjima. Therefore he's a murderer.... just not of the people in Rokkenjima.

This allows also Natsuhi to lie as she killed the servant.

And since in Umineko you can kill a personality and even a plushie...
Don't forget that Nanjo is not a murderer - just like Genji and Kumasawa. Sure, maybe it referred just to EP1 but it seems like a pretty general statement to me. Therefore, him accidentally causing someones death as a physician doesn't count as "murder" either. Even more, because the red about him not being a murderer could be established in the first place it means that no past event marked him as one. So his only way of becoming a "culprit" is to murder someone on Rokkenjima 1986. Which might be impossible as well depending on how we deal with that red statement.

Though Natsuhi is not the culprit as EP5 confirmed, so even if she can lie...

If those loose interpretations of "murder" applied, the solution to Bern's game would've been impossible to pinpoint, since everyone is lying. Pretty sure it's just about humans.

Well, that's the thing: the purple statements in Bern's game don't matter as long as you don't go for a George-culprit theory (or use them willy nilly over all the games... who knows what's purple and what not? Just talking about the purple that we've got), since most of them are pretty specific for Bern's mystery. So you might as well add them, doesn't matter. They're truly not the problem, everything else from Bern's game however... yeah, let's not apply those things:

In the wake of a huge logic error spears would rain down from the sky as natural disasters as well as godly thunderbolts eliminate the gameboard, Ryukishi, and every single reader.

If someone however can create a theory that:

easy

- considers the Detective's perspective
- follows the red (semantic cheats make this easy)
- includes the purple statements from Bern's game (only few general statements that could be applied to all games)

medium
(all those before and)

- interprets magic scenes
- uses Will's hints
- considers Knox's (namely, the 2nd)
- uses a "Mastermind"-character for EP1-4, who is always at the center of the mystery

hard
(all those before and)

- connects to Chiru in a meaningful manner

lunatic
(all those before and)

- uses Bern's definition of a culprit (so no accomplices either)

Bonus points

- use Van Dine as well

... yeah, if you beat lunatic, you have my deepest respects. Oh, forgot one difficulty:

IMPOSSIBLE
(all those before and)

- actually makes sense


But that's just silly.
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