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View Poll Results: Nekomonogatari Black Rating
Perfect 10 31 35.63%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 27 31.03%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 19.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.90%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.30%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.15%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 2.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.15%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-07, 07:05   Link #161
Dauerlutscher
I never asked for this
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
So Araragi is just the typical horny guy that lusts for other girls but he won't cheat on his girlfriend.
And what I undertood so far is that his feelings for Hanekawa are not that of romantic love, bu "something else". What is this something else? Ist it like love for family members, or like love for a Religion, or like love for a thing etc.?
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Old 2013-01-07, 07:42   Link #162
novalysis
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Some have argued that Araragi does not feel romantic love towards Hanekawa, but rather , a form closer to the concept of Agape, or unconditional love.

Though since Japanese, unlike English, distinguishes between the various forms of love, I wonder what was the word Araragi used that was translated as love, when he monologues that he'll never fall in love with Hanekawa.
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Old 2013-01-07, 08:05   Link #163
Clarste
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In his monologue at the end he uses "suki", which is technically an adjective meaning "favorite" or "liked". I don't think it has any particular connotations as a specific form of love. Nor do I think Nisio intended to use any such distinction.

The distinction used in the show that stands out to me is, of course, based on his conversation with Tsukihi in the beginning (which is the basis of the rest of the story). Tsukihi tells him that love is when you want to be with someone. However, Araragi doesn't "want to be with" Hanekawa, he wants to die for her. That's completely different, and frankly it's kind of the opposite. That seems to be the conclusion he comes to when he says that what he feels is beyond love. A lot of people seem to think that means he loves her more, but that's not the impression I got from the line, and Araragi certainly treats it as something different.
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Old 2013-01-07, 08:32   Link #164
Marcus H.
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I wonder if Kizu and Tsubasa Tiger will help us sort out what this "something else" Koyomi feels towards Tsubasa.
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Old 2013-01-07, 08:56   Link #165
Dauerlutscher
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Seriously, this whole "something else" thing is annoying me and it seems to me to be just trolling from the author and then fans, myself inclueded, overinterpret what Araragi said.
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Old 2013-01-07, 09:02   Link #166
Clarste
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Honestly, I thought it was pretty clear. He wanted to die for her, almost did, and found great happiness in that. Even though it wouldn't save her. Those are his feelings. No more and no less. Whether we call that love or not is irrelevant. She's someone he wants to die for, even if it won't save her.
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Old 2013-01-07, 09:25   Link #167
Gohan78
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The biggest problem I have with Nisio Isin is that he tends to write these abnormal characters whose motivations and behaviour are so removed from reality that I cannot hope to comprehend them.
Araragi is such a character. Why is he happy to die for Hanekawa? The only explanation I have is that he views her more like a goddess than a potential girlfriend.

Also, I don't understand why during their confrontation he said that he hated her guts. Was it to provoke Hanekawa to attack him?
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Old 2013-01-07, 09:32   Link #168
Dauerlutscher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Honestly, I thought it was pretty clear. He wanted to die for her, almost did, and found great happiness in that. Even though it wouldn't save her. Those are his feelings. No more and no less. Whether we call that love or not is irrelevant. She's someone he wants to die for, even if it won't save her.
Sure those are his feelings but i wonder about the why?

And I'm not really sure if I'm remembering right, but how many times has he died in his fight against Kanbaru?
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Old 2013-01-07, 10:08   Link #169
Tempest35
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Heh heh, Dauer, you might be looking at this the wrong way. We can't really fully explain why Araragi doesn't like Hanekawa romantically - all we got is our own personal ideas why. You'll need to form one of your own that you can be satisfied with. She's a goddess that he does not wish to 'taint', she's been 'friendzoned', he's an idiot, too much work for him - all of these are valid in some way and fashion.
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Old 2013-01-07, 10:15   Link #170
Magewolf
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I think Araragi loves Hanekawa but he knows that them getting together would be harmful to her.

Hanekawa has at least 3 levels and Araragi get to see them all for the first time during this incident that is what made him see that they would not work as a couple.

The outer most level is the perfect girl that she shows the world.Below that is the clockwork monster that projects the perfect image and below that is a young girl in pain screaming for someone to save her.

Araragi understood that he could not save her from the outside,Hanekawa defense's were to good for that.Him loving her would be like giving a severe burn patient morphine,it would take away most of the pain but not do anything to help heal the wounds.
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Old 2013-01-07, 10:25   Link #171
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
The biggest problem I have with Nisio Isin is that he tends to write these abnormal characters whose motivations and behaviour are so removed from reality that I cannot hope to comprehend them.
Araragi is such a character. Why is he happy to die for Hanekawa?
Dying was the only way he knew to stop the cat. He meant to sacrifice himself to use the sword. Once the cat was killed, Hanekawa would have been forced to return to her normal life, which is what Araragi thought was best for her. He thought it was best to teach her not to cheat and recur to the supernatural to solve her own problems.

He probably thought Hanekawa would have done the same for him, were their positions reversed.
Quote:
Also, I don't understand why during their confrontation he said that he hated her guts. Was it to provoke Hanekawa to attack him?
Yes, and maybe no. The part is not commented on by any thoughts, so it is open to interpretation. Araragi was ad-libbing, and his main purpose was provoking. He certainly wasn't serious when he proposed to massage Hanekawa's breasts.

On the other hand, he could have even disliked what Hanekawa was trying to do, but that was because he was far from indifferent to her. He had all sorts of feelings for Hanekawa, ranging to admiration to compassion, and even love was included, though afterward he chose to deny it. Had she just asked for his help, everything would have been well. Probably he felt disappointment for that.
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Old 2013-01-07, 10:27   Link #172
Dauerlutscher
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@Tempest35
Well, I'm now sure that he doesn't feel something romantic towards her, and I can imagine why.

My problem was with the "something else" and "die for her" and the, in my opinion, overinterpretation of them.
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Old 2013-01-07, 10:49   Link #173
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I wonder if Kizu and Tsubasa Tiger will help us sort out what this "something else" Koyomi feels towards Tsubasa.
I hope so. I'm having a hard time interpreting his feelings for Hanekawa. The only thing I am sure of is that his feelings go beyond friendship. It's something special, that is close to romantic love but can't exactly be called that.
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Old 2013-01-07, 11:22   Link #174
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I hope so. I'm having a hard time interpreting his feelings for Hanekawa. The only thing I am sure of is that his feelings go beyond friendship. It's something special, that is close to romantic love but can't exactly be called that.
Courtly love, perhaps. He wants to make her happy, but he does not have the power to do so.

Keep in mind that he had to re-evaluate his entire view of her, as she is NOTHING like what he had imagined. Whatever feelings he had at the beginning is irrelevant as it is based on love for a girl who doesn't actually exist. What feelings he has now is for the real Hanekawa. The girl who doesn't want to be helped, and refuses to help herself.

Araragi simply isn't romantically interested in the real Hanekawa. He still cares for her greatly, but he does not want to raise a family with her. And if you don't want to grow old together with someone with children running around, then you haven't got a chance.

In short, he really likes her. He is attracted to her. But that's where it ends. There is only so much attractions can do. Reality gets in the way.

Spoiler for minor spoiler on Hanekawa:
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Old 2013-01-07, 13:57   Link #175
zeando
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Courtly love, perhaps. He wants to make her happy, but he does not have the power to do so.

Spoiler for minor spoiler on Hanekawa:
mostly this, since also hitagi had a problem, but in her case it was ok to stay with her and slowly cure it after the first treatment, while with hanekawa it wasn't

one explanation is, as you said, araragi wasn't really able to solve hanekawa's problem by himself, he had over 2 chances to address it and in both he only solved it temporarily, never definitely
but there may also be other explanations,
he may have been able to solve it, but didn't have the will to do so, in which case one should ask/wonder why he didn't want to
maybe he really wanted to be asked for help by her

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Keep in mind that he had to re-evaluate his entire view of her, as she is NOTHING like what he had imagined. Whatever feelings he had at the beginning is irrelevant as it is based on love for a girl who doesn't actually exist. What feelings he has now is for the real Hanekawa. The girl who doesn't want to be helped, and refuses to help herself.
instead of saying araragi loved an hanekawa who didn't exists, i would say araragi loved/admired(greatly) only a part of hanekawa(the perfect white one), not her as a whole

Spoiler for an other spoiler from kizu:

Last edited by zeando; 2013-01-08 at 09:27.
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Old 2013-01-07, 14:39   Link #176
Zetsubo
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So basically ... Hanekawa has a strong Bitchy side to her.
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Old 2013-01-07, 15:01   Link #177
Tempest35
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To use what you said, VCV, the difference between Araragi's feelings for Hanekawa and Senjougahara are not so far part. It's practically the difference of 'being in love' with someone and 'loving' someone.

Being 'in love', or telling others that you are 'in love': In the early years, it can be called 'puppy love' by some people. It's usually regarded as being shallow and not having much substance in the overall scheme of things, especially if the relationship just started. Only if a relationship has passed a certain amount of time, will others say that something may be there to start building an actual relationship. However, being 'in love' is still important - it's where spending time with that person becomes exciting and fulfilling. It's an ideal for most people to 'fall in love' with someone so they can experience that euphoria.

It's also mostly selfish as well. "I spend time with 'x' person because they make ME feel good/happy/content/relaxed, etc." Nearly all external relationships go through this - it's natural and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. But it's not good to base a lifelong commitment with someone else based off of this form of love. Like it was mentioned before, it's still pretty fragile all things considered. The lasting love, the love that doesn't care if you still like them or not, that's what most people consider 'real love'. This is the love that, despite the time spent around them, or the changes they go through, the love you feel for them will not change. Some people think that being friends before being lovers is the way to go but while it makes some things easy, other things will be harder...

There are countless stories of people who have been rescued by other people, sometimes complete strangers and feel a tremendous amount of debt and gratitude towards that person for the rest of their lives. They also wish to, if possible, repay that person for what they have done. In times gone by, sometimes that person offered themselves as a slave to the other, or swore an oath of brotherhood or something else to that effect. "I promise to never leave your side and to always be there for you until my debt to you can be repaid." Sound familar? More often than not, this has turned into an unhealthy obsession for some weaker-minded people and has caused problems for all parties.

For Araragi, Hanekawa was something akin to this for him. Surviving his vampirism was due in no small part of her efforts and for that, he was or is eternally grateful. She was his perfect angel to him, that rescued him from hell. Now, while he didn't do the entire obsessing over Hanekawa to become a genuine nusicance, he did hold her up as a paragon of all that he wasn't and should strive to become. If Hanekawa had asked him to swear his life to her, he would have done so without hesitation. He would live, breathe, and die for this goddess that saw fit to extend her lovely hand to his unfortunate soul. ( ) This form of 'love' can be also called 'adoration'. He'll protect her with his life, and die for her sake with a smile on her face, and those who sully her name will answer to his 'righteous fury' for her sake. I believe this sums up what Araragi was feeling towards Hanekawa for the majority of the Nekomonogatari arc.

As for afterward, Araragi now feels a different sort of love for Hanekawa. No longer does he 'adore' her as some untouchable, infallabile ideal of a woman that has such a tantilizing selection of lingerie. No, this is more of a 'brother-in-arms/comrade' sort of love. In the military, many people who have survived violent tours of duty usually have one or several people which they share this sort of relationship with. 'Closer than brothers' is a usual saying. You'd love them like family and no matter what happens afterward, you'd always have their back and try to help them, even if it will hurt you in return because you know that they'd do the same for you.

Araragi has learned that like him, she too is now experiencing life affected by an Oddity, and one by her own weakness and choosing. He has discovered that she is just a human like him, experiencing an incredible situation in her homelife that he can't fully understand nor really help her with. They are in a similar position now. His affection for her has not changed, he still wants to grope her every now and then, but loving her romantically won't cut it any more for him. He probably felt that they have connected on a level that is deeper than any romantic notion in his head. Other people would mistake this 'deeper connection' to automatically assume that it's a form of romantic love but for Araragi, it's not.

Whew, okay, I'm tired... I've written less for college papers... lol
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Old 2013-01-07, 15:47   Link #178
Zetsubo
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I have come to think that both Araragi and Hanekawa chose to become oddities to escape their own internal sadness and desperation.

Araragi didn't care if the vampire ate him or turned him into one since he had no reason to live.

Hanekawa... well she wanted to...
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Old 2013-01-08, 05:00   Link #179
FRS
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I finally found the time to see it on one session, the begining was weird, but the second half was as good as Bake was: a weird mix of beautiful scene, weird dialogues and fanservice
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Old 2013-01-08, 06:52   Link #180
stassy
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Aren't Koyomi's feelings for Tsubasa just motherly/parent love?
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