AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Sword Art Online

Notices

View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 19
10 out of 10 : Nearly Perfect... 30 28.30%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 21 19.81%
7 out of 10 : Good... 8 7.55%
6 out of 10 : Average... 6 5.66%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.94%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.94%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 2 1.89%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-01-08, 14:24   Link #301
Oroboro
Endless Sorceror
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Even if the setting is that of a game, the people who play it are still real people. If Kirito had gone through with Leafa's suggestion, she would have been hurt, even if it was her own idea.

Spoiler for LN info about Leafa's internal monologue:


And again, try to see things from Kirito's perspective. He's been awake for 2 months already, and Asuna has been asleep the entire time. Her family is marrying her off because quite frankly, the implication is that she'll never wake up. There's no "hope" of someone beating the game to keep them going. No victory condition.

Kirito breaks down, and Suguha tells him to stay strong and keep going. He gets a vague, blurry hope to cling to, and decides to check it out. From a realistic standpoint, the idea that Asuna is being held captive by Captain McRapeypants along with a bunch of other people for mind control research is quite frankly, completely ludicrous and unimaginable. If it wasn't a work of fiction, it's far more likely the only thing Kirito would find there is nothing.

So why hurry?

(And if you think this self doubt should've been shown more, well, you're probably right, but it's important to remember most of the ALO stuff is being told from Leafa's perspective, not Kirito's. We get to see him as "Mysterious Brooding Stranger with a dark secret" instead.)

On that note
Spoiler for Future EP spoilers:
Oroboro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 14:53   Link #302
Akka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Even if the setting is that of a game, the people who play it are still real people.
I don't see how it affects in any way the "disproportion" aspect, which is still the only real point. Killing some avatar in a game is still trivial comparing to helping someone in real life. I have a hard time to believe this need to actually be pointed out, and even harder time to believe that it STILL need to be pointed out after being explained to death for twenty pages.
Quote:
And again, try to see things from Kirito's perspective. He's been awake for 2 months already, and Asuna has been asleep the entire time. Her family is marrying her off because quite frankly, the implication is that she'll never wake up. There's no "hope" of someone beating the game to keep them going. No victory condition.

Kirito breaks down, and Suguha tells him to stay strong and keep going. He gets a vague, blurry hope to cling to, and decides to check it out. From a realistic standpoint, the idea that Asuna is being held captive by Captain McRapeypants along with a bunch of other people for mind control research is quite frankly, completely ludicrous and unimaginable. If it wasn't a work of fiction, it's far more likely the only thing Kirito would find there is nothing.

So why hurry?
Sorry, but this is just a pile-up of rationalizations that only happens in anime/movies/series where people try very hard to come up with stretched explanations at why someone is acting in a completely unrealistic manner.

In reality, if someone very dear to you is under something akin to death threat, you don't wander around having fun, because your whole mind is occupied with this. It's just so obvious I'm, again, flaggerblasted that I have to actually point it, and that it doesn't spring to the face of anyone.
I hardly know people who would merrily go party while their daughter is being kidnapped anyway, even if they can do nothing about it and have no hope.
Quote:
(And if you think this self doubt should've been shown more, well, you're probably right, but it's important to remember most of the ALO stuff is being told from Leafa's perspective, not Kirito's. We get to see him as "Mysterious Brooding Stranger with a dark secret" instead.)
The problem is precisely that he doesn't brood at all, and doesn't seem to be particularly in a hurry.
Quote:
On that note
Spoiler for Future EP spoilers:
Agree, and it precisely highlight how bogus all the rest was up to this point.
Though
Spoiler:
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 14:58   Link #303
Rageth
That Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
But my entire point was that the scales are so disproportionate that the "betrayal" of people in a game is just a non-issue, just like if someone fall in the water and there is a rope next to you, you'll just take it and throw the end to the person who has fallen, and you will certainly not think of it as "rude" or "a theft" at this time (while you would think that if you'd just take the rope in a different situation).
I'd consider that VERY rude, rope or no rope... And he already had developed a friendship with Leafa, so killing her then, and deciding to team up with the opposing side, is not in Kirito's character at all. Especially not on a hunch..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
First, he's (supposed to be) in a very stressful and rather desperate situation. When you're under such pressure, the reality is that you simply don't care about irrelevant side stories. It's just not realistic to see him bantering and playing around, regardless of it being what drives the plot forward or not (it WOULD be realistic if everything was a plan, and as such he actually HAS his mind on the issue at hant, but even if it's the case, it's not properly shown in the last few episodes).
Stressful? You mean how he was stressful while in SAO, where he could be killed be anyone/anything? Sure he had moments of stress and such, but he was seen bantering and playing around anyways... He wasn't the kind to break under pressure, and instead strove to make something positive out of the situation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Second, if he's not even sure Asuna is up there, then on the contrary he should be even MORE pressed for time to check if it's the case - because if it's not, then all the time spent in ALO is just wasted.
It's actually counter-productive to use the "he isn't certain Asuna is here" as an argument to rationnalize his apparent carefree behaviour, because it actually is even more illogical for him to do so in that case.

I think what we have here is simply a case of bad adaptation or sloppy writing.
It was literally, his only lead. No one else knew what had happened, and he got a lead of a picture of a girl in a cage, that happened to look vaguely like Asuna. If you haven't noticed, he has a very calm personality, in addition to being carefree. His calm really only broke the moment he discovered for sure, that Asuna was in ALO.
"He isn't certain Asuna is here" is how we can rationalize his calm, and as such, aimed to find out.

Now, if you want to argue his behaviors being illogical... Keep in mind he was a 14 y/o when he entered SAO, and spent 2 years in an environment that threw logic out the window 80% of the time...
Logically speaking, Kirito should have PTSD... along with 90% of the survivors...
.... great... now I want to ask the author why they don't have ptsd....
Rageth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 16:24   Link #304
Akka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rageth View Post
I'd consider that VERY rude, rope or no rope...
If someone fall in the water and you consider it rude to grab a rope to save him...

Well, let's just say you're either playing the Devil's Advocate to an extent making pointless to use any argument, or you're insane.
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 16:33   Link #305
Rageth
That Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
If someone fall in the water and you consider it rude to grab a rope to save him...

Well, let's just say you're either playing the Devil's Advocate to an extent making pointless to use any argument, or you're insane.
... I seem to have completely misread that part of what you said. Lol. Sorry about that. I find myself having to reread text often. >.< For some reason, I read that someone pushed you into water... disregard my reply to that part.
Rageth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 16:34   Link #306
Oroboro
Endless Sorceror
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
I don't see how it affects in any way the "disproportion" aspect, which is still the only real point. Killing some avatar in a game is still trivial comparing to helping someone in real life. I have a hard time to believe this need to actually be pointed out, and even harder time to believe that it STILL need to be pointed out after being explained to death for twenty pages.

Sorry, but this is just a pile-up of rationalizations that only happens in anime/movies/series where people try very hard to come up with stretched explanations at why someone is acting in a completely unrealistic manner.
Because by betraying someone in game, for vague and flimsy reasons, throwing away everything they did to selflessly help you will hurt that person in real life. You may think Leafa's feelings don't matter, but Kirito is a nicer person than that.
Quote:
In reality, if someone very dear to you is under something akin to death threat, you don't wander around having fun, because your whole mind is occupied with this. It's just so obvious I'm, again, flaggerblasted that I have to actually point it, and that it doesn't spring to the face of anyone.
I hardly know people who would merrily go party while their daughter is being kidnapped anyway, even if they can do nothing about it and have no hope.

The problem is precisely that he doesn't brood at all, and doesn't seem to be particularly in a hurry.

Agree, and it precisely highlight how bogus all the rest was up to this point.
Though
Spoiler:
What I'm suggesting is that maybe, even if we weren't told it, is that Kirito was afraid that at the World Tree he would find nothing. Asuna's been asleep for two months, and while Sugou marrying her is bad, there's really not a damn thing Kirito can do about it. Except... play a video game?

"Play a VRMMO that had a blurry photo of my wife" is less "I have to save her from the clutches of the evil villain!" and more "A slim, vague hope to hold on to as long as I can to distract from my powerlessness."

Honestly ask yourself and think about it - if you cut out all the scenes from Asuna's perspective where we know that Asuna is awake and alive and getting molested, would you still think Kirito is dallying around too much? Asuna's plight is a lot more serious from the audiences perspective than it is from Kirito's.

And we do see his brooding, there are at least a dozen shots of him with downcast eyes or a serious look on his face whenever the topic of the world tree comes up, and Leafa looking on in confusion, wondering what about it makes it so important to him.

(Incidentally this discussion is highlighting how utterly silly the whole "play a new VRMMO to save my wife" plot is in the first place, but that's neither here nor there. )
Spoiler for Future EP spoilers:

Last edited by Oroboro; 2013-01-08 at 16:52.
Oroboro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 16:37   Link #307
Rageth
That Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
(Incidentally this discussion is highlighting how utterly silly the whole "play a new VRMMO to save my wife" plot is in the first place, but that's neither here nor there. )
It worked the first time, though, right? XP
Rageth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 17:00   Link #308
Akka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Because by betraying someone in game, for vague and flimsy reasons, throwing away everything they did to selflessly help you will hurt that person in real life. You may think Leafa's feelings don't matter, but Kirito is a nicer person than that.

You realize you're actually saying :
- It's really SERIOUS BUSINESS to be PKed in a game (if someone is actually that hurt by having his avatar killed in a game, it's hint that he's actually serious mental trouble).
- Having a serie of hints about the situation of your wife who is under life-changing threat is a flimsy excuse to do something utterly trivial.

I know over-rationnalization is a fan favourite past-time, but c'mon... This is going quite a bit into WTF territory.
Quote:
What I'm suggesting is that maybe, even if we weren't told it, is that Kirito was afraid that at the World Tree he would find nothing.
Again, this could be an interesting version, but it's NOT SHOWN.
Quote:
Asuna's been asleep for two months, and while Sugou marrying her is bad, there's really not a damn thing Kirito can do about it. Except... play a video game?

"Play a VRMMO that had a blurry photo of my wife" is less "I have to save her from the clutches of the evil villain!" and more "A slim, vague hope to hold on to as long as I can to distract from my powerlessness."
TBH, I have to say that the whole "I'll play a video game instead of beating this bastard to a pulp or tricking him into confessing" (especially considering how he happily prattle and expose all his evil plans at the drop of a hat) was already stupid to begin with.
But it doesn't stretch the suspension of disbelief nearly as much as "well, my wife is going to be raped and taken away by a slimy monster, I guess I'll have some fun on the side playing".
Quote:
Honestly ask yourself and think about it - if you cut out all the scenes from Asuna's perspective where we know that Asuna is awake and alive and getting molested, would you still think Kirito is dallying around too much? Asuna's plight is a lot more serious from the audiences perspective than it is from Kirito's.
Actually, I would feel it's even worse. Because here we know that Asuna is, at least for now, still safe.
When you don't even know ? You tend to imagine the worst.
Quote:
And we do see his brooding, there are at least a dozen shots of him with downcast eyes or a serious look on his face whenever the topic of the world tree comes up, and Leafa looking on in confusion, wondering what about it makes it so important to him.
Sorry, but that doesn't make him "brooding" for me, it makes him just inconsistent. "I'm going to look farther afield, pain in my eyes, thinking to my lost love... and then I'm going to dick around for fun !"
Hu...
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 17:11   Link #309
Rageth
That Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
- It's really SERIOUS BUSINESS to be PKed in a game (if someone is actually that hurt by having his avatar killed in a game, it's hint that he's actually serious mental trouble).
You don't seem to understand that you're talking about a guy who spent the last 2 years in a world where "PKing" was equivalent to murder, and who has the philosophy of "The avatar is the same as the player"
Rageth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 17:20   Link #310
Oroboro
Endless Sorceror
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post

You realize you're actually saying :
- It's really SERIOUS BUSINESS to be PKed in a game (if someone is actually that hurt by having his avatar killed in a game, it's hint that he's actually serious mental trouble).
- Having a serie of hints about the situation of your wife who is under life-changing threat is a flimsy excuse to do something utterly trivial.

I know over-rationnalization is a fan favourite past-time, but c'mon... This is going quite a bit into WTF territory.
Argh... it's not about the game. You keep framing the issue as "PKing someone in a game VS. Saving someones life!" but the issue is "Betraying and turning your back on a friend VS. some flimsy chance you might have a better chance at reaching your destination where something bad might be happening."

Again. Lyfa is a person, not just some video game avatar. It's not the act of PKing her that's the problem, its saying "Hey, thanks for going out of your way to help me and all, but fuck you, I've found something better!"

TBH if Kirito did something like that and Asuna found out she'd probably dump his ass in a heartbeat. But this is the same guy that
Spoiler for I can't remember if this was brought up in the anime or not:


Quote:
Actually, I would feel it's even worse. Because here we know that Asuna is, at least for now, still safe.
When you don't even know ? You tend to imagine the worst.
Or you try your hardest not to actually think about it. Kirito's a coward too sometimes. He ran away from Klein, he ran away from Sachi, he wanted to run away with Asuna, he tried to run away again until Suguha comforted him.
Oroboro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 18:19   Link #311
Akka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Argh... it's not about the game. You keep framing the issue as "PKing someone in a game VS. Saving someones life!" but the issue is "Betraying and turning your back on a friend VS. some flimsy chance you might have a better chance at reaching your destination where something bad might be happening."

Again. Lyfa is a person, not just some video game avatar. It's not the act of PKing her that's the problem, its saying "Hey, thanks for going out of your way to help me and all, but fuck you, I've found something better!"

TBH if Kirito did something like that and Asuna found out she'd probably dump his ass in a heartbeat. But this is the same guy that
Talking about "betrayal and turning your back on a friend" because someone you have played a bit with in a game, is going to explore one part of the game instead of going to wipe with you, is just absurd.

Trying to make it look more important than looking for information about your missing wife just cross the line of laughable into the territory of "completely insane".

And finally trying to argue that someone would say "you saved me from being brainwashed, raped and maybe killed, but I'll kick your ass because you didn't stop to play around and that was mean for the girl who had a respawn penalty", just robs me of anything to say. I could maybe emote a blank stare.

You seem to completely forget the entire notion of "priority" : "getting information about someone who is in danger" is higher priority than "playing with people in a game". I feel dumber that I even had to say it.
Not being nice in a game because you have some actual REAL-LIFE URGENCY doesn't mean you don't consider the other a person. The fact that the idea can even touch your mind freaks me out, to be honest.

What's next ? When a guy in a WoW raid must log out because his baby is crying, and the raid wipes or disband because they lack a healer, then the guy is a traitor ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rageth View Post
You don't seem to understand that you're talking about a guy who spent the last 2 years in a world where "PKing" was equivalent to murder, and who has the philosophy of "The avatar is the same as the player"
He's aware enough of that to have killed with a grin the avatar of ten people five minutes before, and two more the day before.
I'm afraid that's yet another potentially plausible explanation that was wasted by the plot.
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-08, 18:36   Link #312
Oroboro
Endless Sorceror
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Kirito is a nice person who likes to help other people when they're in trouble.
Kirito is not a ruthless pragmatist who will use others and sacrifice them for his own personal gain.

This all comes back to that age old argument of "Do the ends justify the means?" Maybe you think that the situation of "Vague chance his wife might be in the game" should take precedence over absolutely everything else, but Kirito as a character obviously prefers not to compromise his own moral code, or burden / hurt others with his own personal issues.

Last edited by Oroboro; 2013-01-08 at 19:21.
Oroboro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-09, 15:10   Link #313
Akka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
I guess if you consider you have to be a "ruthless pragmatist considering that the end justify the means" to have any sense of priority and to put real-life concerns above game trivialities, then we just have to admit we don't live in the same reality.

Anyway, I simply don't have the mental fortitude to argue against such twisted and bizarre logic, so I'll let it drop.
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-09, 15:25   Link #314
Oroboro
Endless Sorceror
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
If at the end of the day, you think the story would've been better off if the hero cut down an sweet, innocent girl who's been nothing but kind to him just because it might give him some kind of advantage in the future, then I guess you're entitled to that opinion.

Why bother with ideals like trust and friendship? Just take the shortest path to victory, no matter who you have to step on to get there. After all, it's just a game.
Oroboro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.