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View Poll Results: Is 100% of all eroge only porn and nothing else?
Yeah 14 23.73%
Nope 46 77.97%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-08, 13:56   Link #41
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I am a yuri fan, however... I end up usually with yuri that contains no yuri.

Either it's porn without plot, or it's a romance where the romance never gets explicitly shown. Or it's "Class S," which makes me rage.

Too many yuri works revolve around the "Class S Friendship" horseshit. Japan wants to have its cake and eat it too--you can't accept lesbianism on one hand (to make a profit) and then call it childish and "just practice" for being a good wife on the other.

Pretty much every yuri series, manga, light novel or VN is centered around school-age girls. It's never adults, or even college students. It's always dumb teenagers, and while their romance is always very intense and real for the characters, the story almost always ends when they finally manage to admit their feelings.
Eh, I'm not sure how much much credit I'd give the legacy of class S relationships (an idea that at its peak like what, around 90 years back?) here. Change a few words in your last paragraph and quote it out of context and I'd bet a lot of people would think it was about tropes in straight eroges. Light novels even more so.

The lack of diversity in the manga format is more surprising because the manga format generates stuff like (as you yourself pointed out) Wandering Son.
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Old 2013-01-08, 14:47   Link #42
SPARTAN 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I am a yuri fan, however... I end up usually with yuri that contains no yuri.

Either it's porn without plot, or it's a romance where the romance never gets explicitly shown. Or it's "Class S," which makes me rage.

Too many yuri works revolve around the "Class S Friendship" horseshit. Japan wants to have its cake and eat it too--you can't accept lesbianism on one hand (to make a profit) and then call it childish and "just practice" for being a good wife on the other.

Pretty much every yuri series, manga, light novel or VN is centered around school-age girls. It's never adults, or even college students. It's always dumb teenagers, and while their romance is always very intense and real for the characters, the story almost always ends when they finally manage to admit their feelings.

There aren't ANY stories (as far as I know, I could be wrong) that deal with lesbian relationships that last, that have to stand up against adversity, against social pressure, against family and institutions. Hell, Japan seems more willing to examine the long-term issues of gender identity mismatches (Wandering Son) than to really deeply explore a lesbian relationship.

I guess the male-dominated system just feels threatened by the fact that two women could live their lives in content and happiness without a cock involved?
Sorry to sound like a noob here, but what do you mean by "Class S"? I know there is an attitude in Japan the lesbianism is "just a phase", is that what you mean?
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Old 2013-01-08, 15:01   Link #43
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Where would you find porn as interesting as an eroge? :3

Btw I voted no since I think its on the verge of it in some and past it in some and nowhere near it in some :P
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Old 2013-01-08, 16:15   Link #44
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119 View Post
Sorry to sound like a noob here, but what do you mean by "Class S"? I know there is an attitude in Japan the lesbianism is "just a phase", is that what you mean?
It refers to lesbian relationships between schoolgirls that were - and maybe still are, it's hard to tell how much traction the idea has these days - seen as practice for straight relationships. Historically, it would be associated with 1920s when all girls schools (followed by an arranged marriage) were common in Japan and certain literature of that period. Given the period, I'd speculate they were scared shitless they'd experiment with guys instead.
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Old 2013-01-09, 02:57   Link #45
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...depends on how you define porn. Most eroge have pornographic scenes in them, but I wouldn't call the whole thing porn.

Of course, I do have a bit of a suspicion that this question is purely trolling (still an interesting convo, but just a hunch..)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hmmph, what's wrong with porn anyways? :/

Stupid Victorian attitudes.
HEY THINK OF THE FUCKING CHILDREN-

...er, I'll show myself out now.
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Old 2013-01-09, 17:15   Link #46
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It seems people call any visual novel with a sex scene eroge. This does not make sense: would you call any movie with a sex scene an erotic film?

If the eroge you are playing does not have lots of porn in it then you are playing the wrong eroge!
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Old 2013-01-09, 17:38   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
It seems people call any visual novel with a sex scene eroge. This does not make sense: would you call any movie with a sex scene an erotic film?
As have been said, the context equation is different.

Movies with a sex scene instantly becomes a 18+(or whatever the legal age) movie, even if it isn't a full fledged erotic/porn film. Eroges are similar to that, they're games that contain 18+ materials, even if they're NOT just simple mindless porn (though like I've also said, a lot of the time they are ).
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Old 2013-01-09, 17:45   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
As have been said, the context equation is different.

Movies with a sex scene instantly becomes a 18+(or whatever the legal age) movie, even if it isn't a full fledged erotic/porn film. Eroges are similar to that, they're games that contain 18+ materials, even if they're NOT just simple mindless porn (though like I've also said, a lot of the time they are ).
I feel like a lot of that alienation probably stems from Western culture and it's silly hatred of nudity. This is something that had had an influence on Japanese culture as well. Although Europe doesn't frown upon nudity quite like the United States, which is vehemently anti-nudity. It's hilariously ironic, but I think that Hollywood's embracing of sex scenes in the recent years should help to mitigate that nonsense a bit.
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Old 2013-01-09, 20:50   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
It seems people call any visual novel with a sex scene eroge. This does not make sense: would you call any movie with a sex scene an erotic film?
It depends on the portrayal. A good number of movies have sex scenes, but they're not explicit in the sense that you don't "see anything". They also tend to go by in a minute at most, and resolve in either "the morning after" or "talking in bed". So you know they had sex, but most wouldn't call it "porn".

But I mean even in eroge with the least sexual content (games with maybe one or two scenes per route), each scene is still usually 15-20 minutes (if you listen to all the audio) and contains explicit dialogue and visuals (even if mosaic'ed). Now of course, these scenes may be in the context of a 15-20 hour route, so you could say that proportionally it's no different from the short snippet in a movie. But still, these scenes go much further than what you would see in those movies.

So basically, an eroge is just any adults-only game with sexual content. As soon as they add one scene that goes over the line, it needs the 18+ sticker. If they eliminate that one scene, they can sell it as "all-ages" (likely rated E-15 or whatever, but these are more voluntary). This is why there are a lot of games, anime, manga and so on that try to get as close to the line as they can without crossing it, and those that do cross it tend to go further than just one scene (because at that point, you might as well take advantage of it).
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:01   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It depends on the portrayal. A good number of movies have sex scenes, but they're not explicit in the sense that you don't "see anything". They also tend to go by in a minute at most, and resolve in either "the morning after" or "talking in bed". So you know they had sex, but most wouldn't call it "porn".
If you're going to go in this direction, then I think it's suitable to include the "porn for women novels." Those books have no pictures (from what I know), but they can be very explicit with many styles of wordplay to describe an erotic event and body parts, quite similar to an eroge.

--------
Just to give my wild opinion. If we're talking about all eroge here, then that includes the ones that have a really deep, and possibly realistic story. Lets just say games like that are 24hrs long (same as a day). It has maybe one or two erotic scenes, lasting maybe a total of 20-40mins.

If an eroge is considered porn just because there is a few minutes of sexual content out of a 24 hour game, then real life itself is nothing but a porno.
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:15   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Insane View Post
I voted yes

*Goes over to play Rance*
Sengoku Rance hell yeah

and I also voted yes well it depends on if they have allot of nudity and sexual references in it then yes.
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:35   Link #52
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffle View Post
If an eroge is considered porn just because there is a few minutes of sexual content out of a 24 hour game, then real life itself is nothing but a porno.
Still not quite right. Pardon me, but I don't get why people keep missing this point.

Eroge is an eroge, it just means it is a game that contains (explicit) 18+ material, doesn't mean it's just mindless porn. The mindless porn you're talking about though, certainly exists as a subset or a genre of eroges, dubbed "nukige".
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:47   Link #53
hyl
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While eroges are technically porn because of their sexual content, but by the same technicality aren't uncensored ecchi animes (usually the disc version) also considered porn?
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:54   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Still not quite right. Pardon me, but I don't get why people keep missing this point.

Eroge is an eroge, it just means it is a game that contains (explicit) 18+ material, doesn't mean they're just mindless porn. The mindless porn you're talking about though, certainly exists as a subset or a genre of eroges, dubbed "nukige".
I think you might missed the sarcasm in the original post, as I'm not sure you're really disagreeing so much.

I think most people understand that eroge is the big category that includes everything (Game + Ero), and it includes various subsets that exist on all points along the spectrum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
While eroges are technically porn because of their sexual content, but by the same technicality aren't uncensored ecchi animes (usually the disc version) also considered porn?
I made a thread related to that topic many years ago. A lot of people would consider it softcore porn, but technically it's not rated "adults only" due to technicalities, so sales aren't age-restricted.

I all depends on your definitions, in the end.



As fair warning to everyone, I think this thread is probably going to be locked soon, as it was a troll thread in the first place.
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:57   Link #55
Snuffle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Still not quite right. Pardon me, but I don't get why people keep missing this point.

Eroge is an eroge, it just means it is a game that contains (explicit) 18+ material, doesn't mean it's just mindless porn. The mindless porn you're talking about though, certainly exists as a subset or a genre of eroges, dubbed "nukige".
Uh... It seems you misunderstood me... (Or am I misunderstanding you?) My whole post is pretty much implying I think the same thing you just said... I don't think of all eroge as mindless porn, I just forgot the terminology for those types, being "nukige."
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Old 2013-01-10, 10:00   Link #56
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think you might missed the sarcasm in the original post, as I'm not sure you're really disagreeing so much.

I think most people understand that eroge is the big category that includes everything (Game + Ero), and it includes various subsets that exist on all points along the spectrum.
......I guess I should have my sarcasm detector checked



Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I made a thread related to that topic many years ago. A lot of people would consider it softcore porn, but technically it's not rated "adults only" due to technicalities, so sales aren't age-restricted.

I all depends on your definitions, in the end.
Can I ask for a link to said thread perhaps, for reference. I'm beginning to think that maybe my interpretation of the word doesn't really click with most people.
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Old 2013-01-10, 10:16   Link #57
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Can I ask for a link to said thread perhaps, for reference. I'm beginning to think that maybe my interpretation of the word doesn't really click with most people.
Here you are, except it's from almost 9 years ago now. Holy crap! (I can't read those old threads any more... )
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Old 2013-01-10, 10:56   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
It seems people call any visual novel with a sex scene eroge. This does not make sense: would you call any movie with a sex scene an erotic film?

If the eroge you are playing does not have lots of porn in it then you are playing the wrong eroge!
Because it's well....erotic?

Eroge is what you call this genre. I tell you, in Japan, mention VN or ビジュアルノベル, not everyone knows what you are saying.

Eroge OTOH, everyone understands what you mean, and they don't think nukige eitther but rather Key stuff or other more famous ones
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Old 2013-01-10, 13:27   Link #59
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Going by the dictionary, games with erotic scenes that cause sexual excitement are definitely pornographic. By that definition, a lot of popular books could be considered porn.

However, a lot of people think of "porn" to be something with little to no story beyond explicit sex scenes. They might not take it kindly if you call their "brilliant, work of art" visual novel to be porn, even though that same VN was marketed as an eroge.

I'm not exactly exempt from that crowd either, since the sex scenes in the eroge VNs that I have played are far from the most interesting or entertaining parts. In fact, a lot of those sex scenes were rather disappointing, because many of them were badly written, featured poor art, and felt too much alike. I feel that with the huge emphasis on characters and story that many eroge I've played have, it would be a huge exaggeration to say that they are only good for porn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arekwibowo View Post
Is eroge only about prnography? Please comment.
There are some eroge that only feature sex (they are called "nukige" by fans), but they don't make up the entire market. Frankly, your question is quite silly in that it gives us an extreme argument that can be answered objectively; it's like asking "are all Hollywood movies crime thrillers?" or "are all Disney animated films about princesses"? Your poll is pretty much a loaded question in which I have no choice but to answer truthfully.
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Old 2013-01-10, 16:11   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Eroge is what you call this genre. I tell you, in Japan, mention VN or ビジュアルノベル, not everyone knows what you are saying.
Well, part of this is because, technically, most eroge would actually be classed as AVG (Adventure Games) and not "Visual Novels" because of the sprites. In English fandom, we've appropriated Visual Novel as a catch-all for the whole medium, mostly because it's a useful separation (since many Western gamers have a problem calling these "games" due to the limited "gameplay") that is also less loaded than "eroge" (precisely because some people immediately think porn).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Eroge OTOH, everyone understands what you mean, and they don't think nukige eitther but rather Key stuff or other more famous ones
This gets complicated though, because there are always all-ages works (such as some of those by Key) that don't have any erotic content. When people mistakenly call that "eroge" (at least around here), they get swiftly corrected. And likewise, some people hesitate to call everything eroge just by virtual of having a few adult scenes because of the bad association.

So... basically all the common definitions are flawed in some way.
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