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Old 2013-01-10, 03:48   Link #661
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbZeroNow View Post
I really liked how they showed the Demon King's quasi-Keynesian outlook on the war between the humans and the demons, and the concern about more pestilance bringing suffering due to famine and overpopulation a valid concern for a medieval world. It will be interesting to see how they handle showing the medieval insurance company(since there were the equivalent of insurance companies in the Middle Ages) and various other economic institutions of that era.
If they will involve medieval institutions I'll have more interest in the show than I do now... The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger. Which is would be pretty boring and annoying, not to mention unrealistic. Someone said a while ago that the setup was realistic because feudal lords would scoff at the idea of paying a tax to feed the poor - but it's not like there was no taxation in the middle ages even on feudal lords, or there were no poor relief efforts. Not that I'm expecting any serious treatment of medieval politics and economics from this show, but still, if a show is going to be praised for its treatment of economics it would be good if it had a reasonably complex and believable setup instead of an oversimplified one.
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Old 2013-01-10, 04:20   Link #662
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger. Which is would be pretty boring and annoying, not to mention unrealistic.
The fact that the central countries is profiting from the on-going war by doing the smart move of “buying security” from the borderland countries for the growth of the central’s own economy is a solid proof that not everyone is an idiot when it comes to economy.

It’s all spelled out by Demon Queen herself in episode 1. There’s also a scene showing some merchants do some cheers for the fortune they’re making during the war to stressed that.
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Old 2013-01-10, 04:34   Link #663
kuromitsu
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^That would be the "stupid, greedy warmonger" part... ^^;;
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Old 2013-01-10, 04:43   Link #664
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Old 2013-01-10, 04:43   Link #665
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
^That would be the "stupid, greedy warmonger" part... ^^;;
What do you mean? There's always some "stupid, greedy warmonger" people in the medieval era (or in any era), but that doesn't mean everyone else is like that (like you said before).
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Old 2013-01-10, 08:41   Link #666
kagato3
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
If they will involve medieval institutions I'll have more interest in the show than I do now... The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger. Which is would be pretty boring and annoying, not to mention unrealistic. Someone said a while ago that the setup was realistic because feudal lords would scoff at the idea of paying a tax to feed the poor - but it's not like there was no taxation in the middle ages even on feudal lords, or there were no poor relief efforts. Not that I'm expecting any serious treatment of medieval politics and economics from this show, but still, if a show is going to be praised for its treatment of economics it would be good if it had a reasonably complex and believable setup instead of an oversimplified one.
I will say pretty much all of your impression is incorrect. Very few things are as simple as you think. We do know that the rulers of one of the southern kingdoms are useing the money from the war to help feed the people and the king knows that if the war ends his people will suffer as there is not a stable food source that grows in the area. The Deamon king even states that the human kings understand that the war is what is keeping many of the ills of the world from flareing out of control. Pretty much the whole of the DL presentation is that as bad as the war is ending it will be worse unless things can be changed.
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Old 2013-01-10, 08:48   Link #667
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I have to object that Maou's meat is truly useless.

That reminds me, Haganai Next will be up within the next few days. Welp, I'll be getting a lot of meat this winter.
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:20   Link #668
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
If they will involve medieval institutions I'll have more interest in the show than I do now... The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger.
That is a bit harsh, nowadays people have little idea how the economy works, most people are interested in their every day basic needs, why would it be different back then? You might say back then the economy was a lot simpler to understand, which is true, but back then only the upper echelons of society knew how to read (there was no public education system), books were expensive and rare because they were hand made by monks and the feudal lords were only interested in having cheap (as in free) manual labor that could be easily manipulated (as in, the dumber the better).

Quote:
Which is would be pretty boring and annoying, not to mention unrealistic. Someone said a while ago that the setup was realistic because feudal lords would scoff at the idea of paying a tax to feed the poor - but it's not like there was no taxation in the middle ages even on feudal lords, or there were no poor relief efforts.
Here is the quintessence of what made the medieval world go round. There was just one basic tax, the king taxed 20% of the income the feudal lords made. The feudal lords were supposed to make income since the king allowed them to use the land (and the serfs that lived there in) to raise crops. The complex taxation system the roman empire had was nowhere to be seen, it was thought as complex burden. Feudal lords barely made enough money to maintain their castle and a few troops, so anything else was achieve with local taxation (no federal funds whatsoever), be it maintenance of a local road, building a bridge and whatnot. Beyond some church efforts (that had a tax of 10% of their own) to relieve the poor, I have no knowledge of organized relief efforts to help the poor in the middle ages.

Quote:
Not that I'm expecting any serious treatment of medieval politics and economics from this show, but still, if a show is going to be praised for its treatment of economics it would be good if it had a reasonably complex and believable setup instead of an oversimplified one.
I like the KISS premise of the show, you do not need to make something boring to be true.
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Old 2013-01-10, 10:51   Link #669
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
What do you mean? There's always some "stupid, greedy warmonger" people in the medieval era (or in any era), but that doesn't mean everyone else is like that (like you said before).
I didn't say that...?

Look, what I was trying to say is that the first episode presented a very simplified picture, wherein the Demon King was apparently the only one who was smart enough to see the greater picture, and everyone else we were shown was either helpless/blind to the situation, or going "war is good, war is money, ha ha ha *moustache twirl*"

There was also, from what I remember, no mention of financial institutions and taxes, loans, etc. that existed in the actual European middle ages, nor the exact mechanics of how the war is actually being fought and from what funds, no mention of any revolts and power struggles that eventually happen during times like these... basically anything that might complicate the setting.

Of course the first ep was just an introduction and I expect (or rather, hope) that the show will eventually touch on these things. And I guess the fact that it's humans vs demons and not humans vs other humans helps simplifying the issue, though I wonder about the relations between the humans' countries.

And the three main points the Demon King mentioned in her exposition made me wonder. If this is a pre-industrialized setting then it's not like their "industry" is anything like modern industries so the "country whose entire industry is dependent on making war materials" sounds a bit off. And war as a population check kind of makes me "huh" - I mean, think of the Thirty Years' War or the Napoleonic wars, and what they did to the population of some of the affected areas, that was no "population check." And about the surplus population going off and dying in battles, can the population procreate fast enough to supply the needed amount of soldiers and workers, let alone create a surplus?

How long has the war been going on, anyway? If they mentioned it I don't remember...

Mind you, I'm no economist or sociologist so I might be on a wrong track, but if the show wants to tackle what it seems to want to tackle, I'd like to see a reasonably complex setting with more than a handful of factors at play. Of course all depends on how seriously the show takes its own setting...

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
That is a bit harsh, nowadays people have little idea how the economy works, most people are interested in their every day basic needs, why would it be different back then? You might say back then the economy was a lot simpler to understand, which is true, but back then only the upper echelons of society knew how to read (there was no public education system), books were expensive and rare because they were hand made by monks and the feudal lords were only interested in having cheap (as in free) manual labor that could be easily manipulated (as in, the dumber the better).
These are stereotypes, you know that? The middle ages had banks, loans, insurance, etc. of course on different levels at different times because the "middle ages" weren't one big, unchanging monolith. And no, by the time society has developed to the level it is on in this show, literacy was more widespread - merchants, bankers, people doing business in their profession, etc. had to know how to read. Also they were very much affected by things like war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Here is the quintessence of what made the medieval world go round. There was just one basic tax, the king taxed 20% of the income the feudal lords made.
That's... pretty much incorrect. ._.) Also the Middle Ages was pretty long and it's not like it was the same everywhere, all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Beyond some church efforts (that had a tax of 10% of their own) to relieve the poor, I have no knowledge of organized relief efforts to help the poor in the middle ages.
Those church efforts were organized, though, as providing for the poor was one of the main responsibilities of the Church. Thich was sometimes enforced by laws, I call to mind a law by one of the late Anglo-Saxon kings (I think it was Aethelred II but I can't remember) prescribing the Church to use x portion of their revenue for poor relief, or the Statute of... Oxford or Cambridge sometime in the 14th century, that ordered each county to provide care for the poor living in their area. Also in the 14th century there was another statute that ordered parishes to use a certain percent of their income to help the poor. And then of course there were the Tudor Poor Laws, but that came two centuries later. I'm sure there were others and also in other countries, but it's been a long time and I can't look these up right now. Obviously how effective they were depended a lot on various factors including people being people, but that doesn't change the fact that the efforts existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I like the KISS premise of the show, you do not need to make something boring to be true.
Who says it's boring? If the show wants to take its "yay economy!" aspect seriously I'd find such a complex world building more interesting than running into a wall of "don't think too deeply about this, have some boobs." Then again, 13 episodes, what can you do.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-10 at 11:21.
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Old 2013-01-10, 11:27   Link #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I didn't say that...?
You even deny your own words?:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger. Which is would be pretty boring and annoying, not to mention unrealistic.
Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Look, what I was trying to say is that the first episode presented a very simplified picture, wherein the Demon King was apparently the only one who was smart enough to see the greater picture, and everyone else we were shown was either helpless/blind on the situation, or going "war is good, war is money, ha ha ha *moustache twirl*"
If what you said is true, then those decision makers in central country won't be smart enough to "buy security" by providing the southern countries with many kinds of resources to fight the demons. That alone is (once again) a solid prove that (at least) those people in the central know the "big picture". Even the Demon King herself said that the "Human Kings" apparently know that ending the war will only make things worse (poverty, famine, etc). and that's from episode 1 alone.
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Old 2013-01-10, 11:39   Link #671
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
And about the surplus population going off and dying in battles, can the population procreate fast enough to supply the needed amount of soldiers and workers, let alone create a surplus?
Remember that back then families had plenty of kids on the average (without taking into account the ones that died at birth or before attaining adulthood) because every father wanted more workers for the farm. So even with wars there was plenty of human surplus. Birth Control? Heresy, Heresy! *runs around in circles flapping arms*

Quote:
And no, by the time society has developed to the level it is on in this show, literacy was more widespread - merchants, bankers, craftsmen, etc. had to know how to read. Also they were very much affected by things like war.
Those were the upper echelons of society. But nevertheless I beg to differ, to make business you need mostly to know how to add and subtract, maybe write the name of your wares out of memory, but reading was not really necessary to be successful.

Quote:
That's... pretty much incorrect. ._.) Also the Middle Ages was pretty long and it's not like it was the same everywhere, all the time.
Yeah, but by then it was called The Renaissance :-p

Quote:
Those church efforts were organized...
But you will agree that it was the church (by its own volition or by law of the land) that provided most of the help to the poor.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:02   Link #672
jcdietz03
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Does the US economy NEED war to be healthy?

The US economy did well after World War 2 because other countries' infrastructure was destroyed and ours wasn't. It wasn't intrinsically because of war.

I think the military-industrial complex does pretty well even in times of peace. Sure, they sell more bombs when there's war, but their R&D does well regardless of war or peace conditions. I don't think members of the military-industrial complex need to be warmongers, nor do I believe the US economy needs war to be healthy.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:10   Link #673
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Does the US economy NEED war to be healthy?

The US economy did well after World War 2 because other countries' infrastructure was destroyed and ours wasn't. It wasn't intrinsically because of war.

I think the military-industrial complex does pretty well even in times of peace. Sure, they sell more bombs when there's war, but their R&D does well regardless of war or peace conditions. I don't think members of the military-industrial complex need to be warmongers, nor do I believe the US economy needs war to be healthy.
IMO there's no point in comparing the economy of medieval era where the (human) countries are forced to battle demons for their own lives with the modern or World War era US economy. They're worlds apart.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:18   Link #674
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
IMO there's no point in comparing the economy of medieval era where the (human) countries are forced to battle demons for their own lives with the modern or World War era US economy. They're worlds apart.
I would like to say that no matter the time period, no matter how some people might idealize it, war is murder and theft on a grand scale, of course somebody is going to benefit from it (otherwise nobody would start a war) and if it becomes a long enough (measured in years) it becomes part of the economy.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:18   Link #675
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post



Yeah, but by then it was called The Renaissance :-p
Kuromitsu meant that Middle Ages were not the GRIMDARK Dun Ages that Monty Pythons and various medias made it out to be. There were food hygiene, technological development still happened, Spain under the muslim rule and Bagdad WERE the places to be if you were an intellectual. The Templar Knights were credited with the developments that will lead later to modern economy, etc... While it's nowhere a happy place to live if you have a time machine, it's not the miserable time that medias have made them to be.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:27   Link #676
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I would like to say that no matter the time period, no matter how some people might idealize it, war is murder and theft on a grand scale, of course somebody is going to benefit from it (otherwise nobody would start a war) and if it becomes a long enough (measured in years) it becomes part of the economy.
I’m not idealizing the medieval war btw. I agree with your idea of wars. All I’m saying is: there are too many factors that differentiate between the economy of Maoyuu’s medieval world and modern US. Comparing the two is like comparing a rhino and a giraffe. Yes, both are big animals, yes both are mammals, but there are still glaring differences between them .
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:28   Link #677
willx
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I’m not idealizing the medieval war btw. I agree with your idea of wars. All I’m saying is: there are too many factors that differentiate between the economy of Maoyuu’s medieval world and modern US. Comparing the two is like comparing a rhino and a giraffe. Yes, both are big animals, yes both are mammals, but there are still glaring differences between them .
War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states. It is typically a "last resort" mechanism but one that happens still with regularity in many parts of the world. War doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens due to social, political and economic factors.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:29   Link #678
mangamuscle
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Spain under the muslim rule and Bagdad WERE the places to be if you were an intellectual.
Spain (or any other country under Muslim rule) was not part of the medieval ages (since the term not only delimits a time span, but a geographical span since it took place on the governments that substituted the Roman empire). I agree that not all was dark and grim, I was merely trying to get Kuromitsu to talk about what his sources say about taxation on the middle ages.

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War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states. It is typically a "last resort" mechanism but one that happens still with regularity in many parts of the world. War doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens due to social, political and economic factors.
That is the equivalent of having a dispute with my neighbor for social, political and/or economic reasons, taking my shotgun, murdering him, taking his house, marrying his widow and getting the blessing of the local church >_<
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:32   Link #679
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^That would be the "stupid, greedy warmonger" part... ^^;;
that makes them greedy warmonger, not stupid.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:42   Link #680
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War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states. It is typically a "last resort" mechanism but one that happens still with regularity in many parts of the world. War doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens due to social, political and economic factors.
Umm...I was mainly talking about economy in my post that you quoted. So what’s your point, if I may ask?
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