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Old 2013-01-10, 06:38   Link #321
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
^ Ever heard of "context"? Yeah, I think not.

I was not scoffing at Naruto using Kurama's chakra. I was replying to the poster above me who suggested that Naruto could rely on Kurama's chakra when a few moments ago his Dad stopped him from doing the exact same thing because Naruto wasn't ready.
The context is that Naruto CAN draw on Kurama's chakra. In fact he did, there was one panel that clearly showed his eyes were a combination of the sage mode and fox slits. Minato restored the seal, he didn't "tighten" it up.
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And yes, Naruto is God in this manga. Even after getting the hell beat out of him he still has plenty left in him to pwn Nagato and Konan
Well he has been beating foes stronger than him all series... You could say Nagato wasn't completely beat. That is open for debate. You could also argue how much of a fight Konan could put up. IMO not much. We see her get taken out by Jiraiya easily and then by Obito. Her giving Naruto much trouble..... I just don't see it.
But to say Naruto was running on empty is just incorrect. As I said before, he had sage mode and 9 tail mode up simultaneously at one point.
If anything I'd say Naruto went easy on Nagato and Konan by sparing them and listening to their story.
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Old 2013-01-10, 08:08   Link #322
Eragon
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^ Yeah as I said believe what you want.....
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:17   Link #323
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
^ Yeah as I said believe what you want.....
You're not putting up a good fight here.....
A better defense for your stance would be based on what is known about Nagato and Naruto rather than speculating on what isn't. You based your stance on the Rivive jutsu to consume a lot of chakra when nothing has stated that. You also try to say Naruto didn't have any chakra left when in fact it was quite the opposite.

A better approach would be to say: based on what is known about Edo Nagato, how much of a chakra difference between Naruto and Nagato is irrelavant. Chakra capacity is a none issue for him when he can just siphon Naruto's.

See how much stronger your arguement could be when you base it on know facts rather than assumption?
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:21   Link #324
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Naruto confronting Nagato with both sage mode and 9 tails mode. Hence you were wrong...
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:25   Link #325
Eragon
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
You're not putting up a good fight here.....
A better defense for your stance would be based on what is known about Nagato and Naruto rather than speculating on what isn't. You based your stance on the Rivive jutsu to consume a lot of chakra when nothing has stated that. You also try to say Naruto didn't have any chakra left when in fact it was quite the opposite.

A better approach would be to say: based on what is known about Edo Nagato, how much of a chakra difference between Naruto and Nagato is irrelavant. Chakra capacity is a none issue for him when he can just siphon Naruto's.

See how much stronger your arguement could be when you base it on know facts rather than assumption?
Tell me, what parts of that haven't been said in the previous few pages? Why should I repeat what others have already said, which you willingly want to ignore or make light of ?

What has Naruto got against Konan that you are so confident that he will defeat her? He doesn't have the toads with him for their saliva, he hasn't got anything beside shadow clones and rasengan which he already used way too many times. What evidence are you basing Naruto sure shot victory on? He has NEVER fought Konan. Sage mode requires time and concentration. Seriously don't talk about facts and assumptions when you are perfectly fine with ignoring the facts yourself.

Oh and if you are going to say that Naruto could have defeated Konan in that state without sage mode then, we have no argument.
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:35   Link #326
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I MAYBE underestimating Konan. It can concede that but based on what I have seen she just isn't that impressive. In the two fights she has been in she has been.... Weak. What does naruto have to counter her paper? How about just blow them away with his wind release?
And why do you insist Naruto didn't have sage mode or 9 tails? He clearly did.... I mean I even posted a pic.
Konan's strength is an opinion. We can debate that. But Naruto still have loads of chakra is not an opinion. It's a straight fact.
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:45   Link #327
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^ And you were telling me that I wasn't putting up a good fight

Blow her up =_=

Well I couldn't care less anyway. Naruto is the hero of this manga. He wins by default no matter what enemy he's facing.

I tire of you ridiculing Konan's strength based on her fight with Jiraya(I'm guessing). Just because Jiraya had the perfect counter against her, makes her weak? lol

As I said believe what you want..........This argument is finished
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Old 2013-01-10, 10:08   Link #328
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I think Mu saved Shikaku and all of them at HQ...they didnt even get any real kinda closure, unlike Neji

Edit: Oh damn, he's dead :/
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Old 2013-01-10, 11:37   Link #329
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The only reason jiraiya beat konan so easily was so kishi could move onto the real fight :/

...and because he hates women.
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:27   Link #330
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
I mention Hinata because Sakura could have gotten the same treatment; not fight but still be important.
The same treatment, as in doing a pep-talk about once every 200 chapters? As I said Hinata has a real purpose in the story but that doesn't make her an important character.
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You can argue how much this subplot matters to YOU, but it is pretty clear Kishi wants it to matter.
I think you're projecting here, while it's pretty clear her character is important to you she's just not that important to the overall plot. It's ok you know, there have been less than a dozen important characters in this show, you can still appreciate a more minor character all the same.
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No, she not only didn't fight, she does nothing AND hinders our protaganist. In fact the latter is the real reason many dislike her characterization. Plenty of characters don't do much but their characters are not nearly as maligned.
Plenty of character don't have the panel time Sakura has and incidentally you have once again paraphrased my argument. Of course she does nothing but hinder the protagonist : she can't fight. Take her last pathetic intervention and have her take out a couple of Sasuke's crew and/or really push/wound Sasuke in his tired state and you can bet your ass she'd be cheered by most of the fanbase (it'd take much to forget her retarded "confession" but hurting Sasuke is usually very forgiving). But she can't so she remain the boring, useless girl who need saving all the time (except for those who are happy with the character healing people off panel, good for you if that's your thing).
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I think when it comes down to it, we both feel Sakura is a wasted opportunity on Kishi's part. We just disagree on why and how to fix it.
Considering the whole discussion focused entirely on the whys and hows that's was a nice way to say we disagree on everything!
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
Okay I can concede that maybe Nagato wasn't spent. I can also concede that maybe there was fight in Konan and Nagato. Would that have resulted in a win? I can't say for certain, but IMO no.
But then you do realize that you've just agreed with James right? He didn't say Nagato and Konan would have won had they chose to figh (as you say we can't tell for sure, unless word of god it's a matter of perception), he said they chose not to fight because Naruto convinced them and thus gave up.

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-01-10 at 14:45.
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Old 2013-01-10, 14:27   Link #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
The only reason jiraiya beat konan so easily was so kishi could move onto the real fight :/

...and because he hates women.
You must be confusing him with kubo.
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Old 2013-01-10, 14:31   Link #332
Eragon
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^ Hey at least Bleach's got uber cool female characters like Yoruichi and Unohana. If anything Kubo loves his female characters - he draws them so curvy
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Old 2013-01-10, 14:36   Link #333
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now it's been two weeks without a new chapter, how long is the new year break going to be?
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Old 2013-01-10, 15:48   Link #334
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The same treatment, as in doing a pep-talk about once every 200 chapters? As I said Hinata has a real purpose in the story but that doesn't make her an important character.

I think you're projecting here, while it's pretty clear her character is important to you she's just not that important to the overall plot. It's ok you know, there have been less than a dozen important characters in this show, you can still appreciate a more minor character all the same.
I'm not going to lie I do like Hinata a lot, but I only bring her up because of this current chapter. Another example would Shinkamaru. He hasn't fought much but still is quite likeable, he got great growth with the death of Asuma, taking on being a good role model for Asuma's kid, cheering up Naruto after Jiraiya's death etc. yet another protrayal of development without fighting. My point was I think your thesis "you need to fight to stay relevant" is incorrect. Hinata and Shinkamaru are just examples of how it can be done.

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Considering the whole discussion focused entirely on the whys and hows that's was a nice way to say we disagree on everything!
Actually I think we agree with more than you think. Most of it has just been debating details. I always try to be polite, afterall this is just a way to past the time until the next chapter comes out.

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But then you do realize that you've just agreed with James right? He didn't say Nagato and Konan would have won had they chose to figh (as you say we can't tell for sure, unless word of god it's a matter of perception), he said they chose not to fight because Naruto convinced them and thus gave up.
I might agree with him if he put up a better fight.... I have no problems with Naruto using talk no jutsu as his coup de grace. I just don't think it applies here. Like I said, debating on the forums is a way to pass the time and maybe gain a better understanding of rationale behind the writing.
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Old 2013-01-10, 18:01   Link #335
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If anything Kubo loves his female characters - he draws them so curvy
I think this is why some people criticize Kubo and Mashima. A lot of fanservice.
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Old 2013-01-10, 18:14   Link #336
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
Nothing that I have read says that recently dead people can be revived via without the user sacrificing himself. Konan's statement simply states he could raise the dead, you are inferring no sacrifice is needed. Where are you coming up with this conclusion?
She said that Nagato in his current state should not perform that jutsu. Why would she add that "in his current state" if Nagato would die regardless of what state he is in? If you die by using it then you could have 100% health and chakra it wouldn't matter, so in that case Konan would clearly tell him not to sacrifice his life for the Konoha people. But she reacted in a different way. Also saying that the rinnegan has control over life and death implies that Nagato can revive or kill someone without him having to die, as opposed to the death god jutsu or Chiyo's revival jutsu which requires the user's life in exchange for the jutsu.

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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
Naruto might have been tired but he had plenty of gas left in the tank. At one point he had both Kurama's charkra while in sage mode. Konan might have been at full power but against Naruto I highly doubt it would have mattered.
I think this is really a matter of opininon, i think that they were both at their limits but Nagato had the advantage because if he decided to go for the kill instead of capture his rinnegan powers at point blank range would have been very effective (just remember Edo-Nagato: he could absorb KillerBee's chakra and make it his own, also he could easily capture both of them while being immobile by using all 6 paths of his power simultaneously), and also i would not underestimate Konan against an exhausted Naruto. Sure Naruto for a brief moment combined the kyuubi powers with sage mode, but it was already stated a few times that if the kyuubi is not his friend then the kyuubi's chakra and nature chakra both have to be balanced out by his own, and at that point his own chakra was already low, since a short time after all that he collapsed while returning to the village.
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Old 2013-01-10, 20:55   Link #337
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
I'm not going to lie I do like Hinata a lot, but I only bring her up because of this current chapter. Another example would Shinkamaru. He hasn't fought much but still is quite likeable, he got great growth with the death of Asuma, taking on being a good role model for Asuma's kid, cheering up Naruto after Jiraiya's death etc. yet another protrayal of development without fighting. My point was I think your thesis "you need to fight to stay relevant" is incorrect. Hinata and Shinkamaru are just examples of how it can be done.
Are you kidding? Out of all the rookies Shikamaru is the one with the most fight and expositions. His entire growth happened around his battle against Hidan and Kakuzu. Remove those and he's still the guy from part 1, the guy we got to know in the first place because of his fight against Kin, Temari and the Sound nin.
I'm not saying that fighting is all there is to character development in this kind of series but in order to have character growth you need the spotlight and for that you need fight scenes 95% of the time.
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Old 2013-01-10, 21:18   Link #338
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Are you kidding? Out of all the rookies Shikamaru is the one with the most fight and expositions. His entire growth happened around his battle against Hidan and Kakuzu. Remove those and he's still the guy from part 1, the guy we got to know in the first place because of his fight against Kin, Temari and the Sound nin.
I'm not saying that fighting is all there is to character development in this kind of series but in order to have character growth you need the spotlight and for that you need fight scenes 95% of the time.
I agree as Naruto is a manga with fighting in it so the most well developed characters will have done at least some fighting.

If Naruto wasn't a fighting manga then it wouldn't look like Sakura did little in Naruto as she doesn't get enough spotlight. I was talking about this on a different forum as well.
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Old 2013-01-13, 01:19   Link #339
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Are you kidding? Out of all the rookies Shikamaru is the one with the most fight and expositions. His entire growth happened around his battle against Hidan and Kakuzu. Remove those and he's still the guy from part 1, the guy we got to know in the first place because of his fight against Kin, Temari and the Sound nin.
I'm not saying that fighting is all there is to character development in this kind of series but in order to have character growth you need the spotlight and for that you need fight scenes 95% of the time.
But that kind of proves my point as well. He was in a fight with Hidan and Sakura was in a fight with Sasori. Yet Shinkamaru still comes off better mainly because he had, as you said, expositions. It also helps that he didn't hinder and guilt trip Naruto left and right while Sakura does.
I personally feel it was when Shinkamaru cheered Naruto up after Jiraiya's death made the most impact. After that I thought: this kid is really turning into decent guy. That moment never happened with Sakura despite being in almost the same amount of fights.
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:43   Link #340
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No it really doesn't. At the time her fight with Sasori impressed most people even many of those who can't stand the character, her downfall (or to be more precise the return to her pathetic status quo) is due to the fact that it was a one time thing after which she was never given anything but feeble lines and being all around useless to anybody.
Shikamaru however has been given more fighting scenes than any other character save from the the main ones and continuous positive exposition in all his regular appearance. Let's put this simply do you actually believe we would be talking about Shikamaru right now if he hadn't had all his fighting scenes in part 2 and only talked to Naruto for 2 panels in this scene you mention? Of course not. But while fighting scenes are the backbones of the characters, those little scenes (and this one is clearly not the most important of all for Shika) are fleshing them out. Taken individually they don't matter much but as a whole they are very important for his characterization but (and this is the point I'm coming across since the beginning) the author won't bother with them much unless fight scenes, spotlight, etc.

And this is a side note but guilt trip Naruto? What are you talking about? She didn't guilt trip Naruto, she guilt tripped herself after believing Sai (Sai! I mean what the hell?) when he told her Naruto was running after Sasuke because of her. That was one the worst written and more cringe worthy scene in the entire story and Naruto somehow managed to make it worse when he fainted over thinking about Sasuke too much (something I have seen people blame Sakura as well probably because she's such an easy target) but guilt trip? Explain.
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