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Old 2013-01-10, 12:50   Link #681
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
That is the equivalent of having a dispute with my neighbor for social, political and/or economic reasons, taking my shotgun, murdering him, taking his house, marrying his widow and getting the blessing of the local church >_<
Actually, no, it would be like your neighbour and you having a fundamental disagreement about the boundaries of where your property ends and you both bringing in a bunch of lawyers to resolve the issue.

As I said before, War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states -- in a civil society we have granted the state (barring exclusions) the sole monopoly on legitimate uses of violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Umm...I was mainly talking about economy in my post that you quoted. So what’s your point, if I may ask?
I wasn't responding to you specifically but more in general on the topic. There's a reason wars happen and it's silly to just say "War is not acceptable!"
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Old 2013-01-10, 12:59   Link #682
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Actually, no, it would be like your neighbour and you having a fundamental disagreement about the boundaries of where your property ends and you both bringing in a bunch of lawyers to resolve the issue.

As I said before, War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states -- in a civil society we have granted the state (barring exclusions) the sole monopoly on legitimate uses of violence.
I think you have cognitive dissonance, you just accepted that in civilian society the state has the monopoly of violence but still think civilian disputes and wars are the same thing? The equivalent would be having a group of lawyers decide the result of any international dispute, which is sadly a very rarely the case. War is not a dispute resolution mechanism, war is a dispute, always violent in nature, which may or may not solve the cause why the conflict originated in the first place.
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Old 2013-01-10, 13:15   Link #683
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I think you have cognitive dissonance, you just accepted that in civilian society the state has the monopoly of violence but still think civilian disputes and wars are the same thing? The equivalent would be having a group of lawyers decide the result of any international dispute, which is sadly a very rarely the case. War is not a dispute resolution mechanism, war is a dispute, always violent in nature, which may or may not solve the cause why the conflict originated in the first place.
Sorry? Cognitive dissonance? I'm not feeling uncomfortable in any way. Or perhaps you mean to say I was mistaken or misinformed? I don't think so -- I never once said a civilian dispute was the same as war. I did nothing of the sort? I just said in a civilian dispute "going to war" wouldn't actually be going to War. The closest proxy would be using your resources to the extent possible to "win" or "triumph" over your opponent.

In our modern society, even a single "state" according to the U.N. no longer has the right to use force. That said, the Security Council of the U.N. reserves the right to "Enforce its decisions militarily, or by any means necessary". It seems like you are of the mind that war can always be avoided and is never necessary? Just like war can be used to seize territory or inflict grievous harm, so can other non-military actions .. that may need the threat of force to dissuade.
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Last edited by willx; 2013-01-10 at 13:32.
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Old 2013-01-10, 13:28   Link #684
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Also:
If what you said is true, then those decision makers in central country won't be smart enough to "buy security" by providing the southern countries with many kinds of resources to fight the demons. That alone is (once again) a solid prove that (at least) those people in the central know the "big picture". Even the Demon King herself said that the "Human Kings" apparently know that ending the war will only make things worse (poverty, famine, etc). and that's from episode 1 alone.
*shrug* Then cross the "stupid" part and keep the "warmonger," though frankly I think it's stupid because countries are not run and populated by robots, and a war like this can't continue forever. The more they push it the worse it becomes, and eventually it will come around and bite them in the ass.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Remember that back then families had plenty of kids on the average (without taking into account the ones that died at birth or before attaining adulthood) because every father wanted more workers for the farm. So even with wars there was plenty of human surplus. Birth Control? Heresy, Heresy! *runs around in circles flapping arms*
Families had plenty of kids because they had no birth control. Not because it was omg heresy (off-topic but the Church wasn't the same back then as it is now, especially in the early Middle Ages...), but because they had no access to easy and effective birth control, and even if they had most of them probably wouldn't have cared because 1) children died a lot more often before reaching adulthood, 2) even if someone grew up to be an adult there was a bigger chance of dying of some kind of sickness or injury, 3) in case of peasants/serfs, yes they needed more workers who could help make farming more effective so the family has an easier time, and also support the family in need or when the older members can't work anymore. But this doesn't mean "plenty of human surplus."

And btw, consider that war means more taxes in money and/or goods = less food for the family = generally less healthy peasants/serfs + strong young men being taken away for soldiering => fewer and less able people working under worse conditions => add some inevitably occurring droughts or epidemics => much less of whatever crops they're raising. (Never mind things like "exhausting" the soil or armed skirmishes between local lords ending with destroyed villages and crops.) This is not exactly something that can continue forever and ever. You can expect peasant revolts (which demand military attention), but it's also a great way to dig your own grave on the long run.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Those were the upper echelons of society. But nevertheless I beg to differ, to make business you need mostly to know how to add and subtract, maybe write the name of your wares out of memory, but reading was not really necessary to be successful.
Bakers and butchers, the upper echelons of medieval society? Also, again, things were evolving. Judges, lawyers, merchants, bankers, people who regularly handled money knew how to read, and as the middle class developed people belonging there became more and more literate because it gave them an advantage in business and it helped separating them from the lower classes and bringing them closer to the upper class.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Yeah, but by then it was called The Renaissance :-p
No, actually, it was called, for example, 12th-13th century France. Or Italy. Or, as Sheba said, Iberia under Muslim rule. Etc. As Sheba said, people have this impression of the Middle Ages as being all dark and grimy and intellectually empty and never changing, but that wasn't the case at all. And there were large differences between territories, or even on the same territory in different times.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
But you will agree that it was the church (by its own volition or by law of the land) that provided most of the help to the poor.
Yes, because it was their job. I assume the world of Maou Yuusha also has at least one organized religion.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Spain (or any other country under Muslim rule) was not part of the medieval ages (since the term not only delimits a time span, but a geographical span since it took place on the governments that substituted the Roman empire).
Wow, this is what they teach in schools nowadays? O___O) It's nice to know that Scandinavia, Ireland, Iceland and what eventually became Russia weren't part of the Middle Ages either...

Also, forgot to add:
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
(Uwah, sorry for the size of the previous one, I didn't notice it was so huge.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I agree that not all was dark and grim, I was merely trying to get Kuromitsu to talk about what his sources say about taxation on the middle ages.
I have no "sources" per se, and I can't be bothered enough to dig them out of wherever I put them after I graduated (more years ago than I care to admit) - but the fandom for this franchise seems large enough that someone has already done some research. But for disclosure, I studied Medieval English history and literature which obviously had to include the relevant parts of Europe as well, and while I have forgotten much of it, I still fancy myself somewhat knowledgeable about the topic. (Even if my English had gotten worse... -_-)

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-10 at 13:47.
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Old 2013-01-10, 15:19   Link #685
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Actually, no, it would be like your neighbour and you having a fundamental disagreement about the boundaries of where your property ends and you both bringing in a bunch of lawyers to resolve the issue.

As I said before, War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states
Sometimes, yes. Sometimes two sides of a dispute both sincerely believe that, say, a particular piece of territory belongs to them. It's not just a pretext, both sides really do believe it. And when war erupts out of such a situation, then it is a dispute resolution mechanism.

Sometimes, though, war is just about a powerful charismatic leader or state having the stronger military, and deciding that it's going to be used to just flatout steal land and territory that they know legally belongs to another state.

Napolean, Stalin, Genghis Khan... none of these men were under the delusion that they were taking territory that didn't rightfully belong to other nations. They just took that territory because they had the stronger military at the time, period. So yes, it was just outright thievery at the national level (which is called "annexation").


As for the idea that war is good for the economy... It is, up to a point. Specifically, it can cause a spike in the manufacturing sector. War means you need more weapons and more armor being built. Good for smithies in the middle ages. Good for tank manufacturers during WW II.

The economic benefits of perpetual war is very dubious to me, though. For one thing, such a system would depend on two sides being almost perfectly matched - Otherwise, one side simply wins (insomuch as you can win in war, anyway), and thus the war ends. Maintaining such a stalemate indefinitely is almost impossible. Keep in mind that the people fighting in a war are like the Hero of this anime - They want to win, period. In other words, they want to destroy the enemy and end the war. They don't want to be doing this forever.

And even in a perfect stalemate, at some point the civilian population on both sides are just going to get sick of it and want it to end so that the steadily rising casualty counts stop. Just look at how tired modern America is of the Iraq war/occupation.
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Old 2013-01-10, 15:32   Link #686
Anh_Minh
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Please note that the Demon Queen isn't saying that perpetual war is good for the economy.

She's just saying that the present state of having only two sides is preferable to multiple small scale conflicts, and more importantly, that one side decisively triumphing over the other would just result in even more misery. For the losing side, certainly, but also for a lot of the guys in the winning side. Banditry, famine, unemployment... Or maybe a multi-sided war among the victors for the spoils...
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Old 2013-01-10, 15:59   Link #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
If what you said is true, then those decision makers in central country won't be smart enough to "buy security" by providing the southern countries with many kinds of resources to fight the demons. That alone is (once again) a solid prove that (at least) those people in the central know the "big picture". Even the Demon King herself said that the "Human Kings" apparently know that ending the war will only make things worse (poverty, famine, etc). and that's from episode 1 alone.
Seeing the effects of the war does not necessarily mean the party sees the "big picture." The merchants are the most obvious examples: They have accounts of their profits before the war, and they have accounts of their profits during the war. A comparison of the books will show them that the war has benefited them, but it does not imply that they are aware of macroeconomics.

The rulers view the effects of the war on a larger scale, but that also does not necessarily mean they see "the big picture." Take the rulers of the Winter country, for example. They are aware of food shortages before the war, and they are aware of the lack of food shortages during the war. They are also aware of the funds from the Central Nations. They can easily predict from the comparison the sort of consequences that would result from ending the war now.

These are comparisons that real world medieval rulers and merchants can make. However, macroeconomics as an organized predictive study did not really occur until the 17th century or later. The theories of macroeconomics, while often wrong, allow for predictions of long term consequences. For example, it is fairly simple for the Central Nations to see that it is buying security by aiding the Winter country, but what is the long term consequence of taxing your population then shipping the taxes out to another country to be destroyed in a war? I believe Kaynesian economics predict a short term increase in economic activity and significant inflation in the long term--reasonable to see as only beneficial in the 15 year interval the series postulated for the war but problematic in the long run.

In that sense, I agree with kuromitsu's initial assessment: The Demon King is the only one who really grasp macroeconomics as a predictive study.

That being said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger. Which is would be pretty boring and annoying, not to mention unrealistic.
I disagree with the assertion that the series would be fundamentally uninteresting because the Demon King is the only one with a grasp of an advanced social theory. One approach would be to make a series of how the person chooses to force the world to implement her methods where no one of consequence has a grasp of the theory. Take the first book in Foundation as an example: One of the two postulates of psychohistory is that the subject of psychohistorical study does not know psychohistory. Thus, the interesting conflict of that part of the story comes with how the psychohistorians manipulate an imperium that thinks they are kooks. Here in Maoyu, the Demon King leaves her throne to travel with the Hero so she can reach the human world. By doing so, she relinquishes the possibility of tight control over the demon world. And she did not ever have control over the human world. Thus, Maoyu's setup allows it to show us how the Demon King intends to implement her plans.

Another approach is to tell a story of how the person would choose her starting conditions and modify her methods based on real world observations. In this case, the adventures through the world gives the audience a first hand view of the conditions the theory is meant to grasp and the difficulties with which it must deal. In this approach, Maoyu is both more and less advanced than Prelude to Foundation: less in the sense that macroeconomics is far less comprehensive than psychohistory, more in the sense that macroeconomic formulas are already in place, while psychohistory has only been proven to be possible in Prelude.

In some ways, the Demon King and the Hero remind me of a gender flipped version of Hari Seldon and Dors Venabili, where it's the female that is the strong protector and the male the more intellectual. Although in this respect Maoyu is a bit lacking, because Dors is an accredited historian, while the Hero is essentially all brawns.
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Old 2013-01-10, 16:36   Link #688
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Seeing the effects of the war does not necessarily mean the party sees the "big picture." The merchants are the most obvious examples: They have accounts of their profits before the war, and they have accounts of their profits during the war. A comparison of the books will show them that the war has benefited them, but it does not imply that they are aware of macroeconomics.

The rulers view the effects of the war on a larger scale, but that also does not necessarily mean they see "the big picture." Take the rulers of the Winter country, for example. They are aware of food shortages before the war, and they are aware of the lack of food shortages during the war. They are also aware of the funds from the Central Nations. They can easily predict from the comparison the sort of consequences that would result from ending the war now.

These are comparisons that real world medieval rulers and merchants can make. However, macroeconomics as an organized predictive study did not really occur until the 17th century or later. The theories of macroeconomics, while often wrong, allow for predictions of long term consequences. For example, it is fairly simple for the Central Nations to see that it is buying security by aiding the Winter country, but what is the long term consequence of taxing your population then shipping the taxes out to another country to be destroyed in a war? I believe Kaynesian economics predict a short term increase in economic activity and significant inflation in the long term--reasonable to see as only beneficial in the 15 year interval the series postulated for the war but problematic in the long run.
Maybe I should tell you that by saying "Big Picture", I didn't mean it as macroeconomics. When I said "big picture" I meant a larger view where they're more aware of things outside of their country. And Kuromitsu never said anything about macroeconomic in his/her reply to me either.

Also, how do you know that those merchants only count on their account books? For all we know, they can also do some observation on the outside world and new territories to broaden their horizon, not merely watching their usual trading routes or account books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
In that sense, I agree with kuromitsu's initial assessment: The Demon King is the only one who really grasp macroeconomics as a predictive study.
Mind you that in his/her initial post, Kuromitsu only mentioned economy not macroeconomics. And s/he further said that everyone else except Demon King is an idiot who doesn't know economy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy, and everyone else is either an idiot or a stupid, greedy warmonger.
That's what I don't agree, and it's already proven wrong.
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Old 2013-01-10, 16:53   Link #689
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
I disagree with the assertion that the series would be fundamentally uninteresting because the Demon King is the only one with a grasp of an advanced social theory. One approach would be to make a series of how the person chooses to force the world to implement her methods where no one of consequence has a grasp of the theory. Take the first book in Foundation as an example: One of the two postulates of psychohistory is that the subject of psychohistorical study does not know psychohistory. Thus, the interesting conflict of that part of the story comes with how the psychohistorians manipulate an imperium that thinks they are kooks. Here in Maoyu, the Demon King leaves her throne to travel with the Hero so she can reach the human world. By doing so, she relinquishes the possibility of tight control over the demon world. And she did not ever have control over the human world. Thus, Maoyu's setup allows it to show us how the Demon King intends to implement her plans.
FWIW I just think it would be boring because in this case it boils down to one person being Right and everyone else being Wrong, Ignorant or Misguided who need to be set right by the one being right as if she was some sort of a Messiah. Which is not a dynamic I particularly enjoy. (Also, in this particular setting I find it very difficult to believe that the Demon King is the only one who ever sat down and did some thinking and reached these conclusions.)
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Old 2013-01-10, 17:08   Link #690
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
FWIW I just think it would be boring because in this case it boils down to one person being Right and everyone else being Wrong, Ignorant or Misguided who need to be set right by the one being right as if she was some sort of a Messiah. Which is not a dynamic I particularly enjoy.
Then, yeah, maybe this series isn't for you. The others aren't all stupid or evil, but they haven't had the time or inclination to try to understand the world the way she has. A lot of them were too busy trying not to die. And just plain didn't have the opportunity to lead a scholarly life.

Quote:
(Also, in this particular setting I find it very difficult to believe that the Demon King is the only one who ever sat down and did some thinking and reached these conclusions.)
Hm, why, exactly? Why is it so hard to believe the Demon Queen is the only one with the tools to reach that conclusion? I mean, she said as much, the kings know that the war's been good for them. But she's the only one to have the means to have a broader view, and the idealism to risk it all in search of a solution where demons and humans coexist peacefully. Instead of, say, leveraging her superior knowledge to outright win the war.
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Old 2013-01-10, 17:08   Link #691
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
FWIW I just think it would be boring because in this case it boils down to one person being Right and everyone else being Wrong, Ignorant or Misguided who need to be set right by the one being right as if she was some sort of a Messiah. Which is not a dynamic I particularly enjoy. (Also, in this particular setting I find it very difficult to believe that the Demon King is the only one who ever sat down and did some thinking and reached these conclusions.)
Maou is not the only one who knows that the economic situation is being sustained by the war, nor that that is a bad thing. We saw some of the humans discussing that, in fact. I would say she is simply the only person with some idea of how to resolve the situation, but I'm not sure she actually has one. I think she just intends to use Hero's help to try to find one. She obviously has an advantage in education that is not available in the human world, so she may be able to teach methods of agriculture and other things that could help shift the balance so that the one country is not so dependent on the other's war funds. That's only one of the problems, but solve one and perhaps other solutions may present themselves.
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Old 2013-01-10, 17:31   Link #692
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Also, how do you know that those merchants only count on their account books? For all we know, they can also do some observation on the outside world and new territories to broaden their horizon, not merely watching their usual trading routes or account books.
It is not necessary for me to prove that they only look at their account books. I merely have to prove that they can assess the beneficial effects of the war on them by only looking at their account books. I have shown this. Therefore, it is not permissible to conclude that they have a grasp of the bigger picture by their comment on the benefits of war.

Quote:
Mind you that in his/her initial post, Kuromitsu only mentioned economy not macroeconomics.
Let’s examine the original quote, then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
The impression I got from episode 1 is that the Demon King is the only one who has any idea about economy
First, it is quite obvious that “economy” here refers to the financial aspect of nations (and as such really should be “the economy” or “economies” instead of “economy” alone). The series refers to the financial aspect of nations when it discusses economics. The people in this topic refer to the financial aspect of nations. And you yourself make this assumption. [1] [2] [3]

What is macroeconomics? It is the study of the workings of an economy as a whole. In other words, macroeconomics is the big picture of economies. I merely used a simple substitution of equivalent terms.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I just think it would be boring because in this case it boils down to one person being Right and everyone else being Wrong, Ignorant or Misguided who need to be set right by the one being right as if she was some sort of a Messiah.
You assume that the setting of right of what everyone else is doing wrong means that the person that is doing the “setting right” is some sort of Messiah. It can be done this way, of course, e.g. Gundam Seed; and it can even be done violently, e.g. Children of Dune, but it is not a necessary consequence. The solution to how to “set everyone right” can be subtle and quite diabolical, as demonstrated in the short story “In a Good Cause-.” Having the person who is right be grandiose and didactic is a common failing, but it is not a necessary one where he is the one setting out to right the wrongs of the world.
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Old 2013-01-10, 18:01   Link #693
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Hm, why, exactly? Why is it so hard to believe the Demon Queen is the only one with the tools to reach that conclusion? I mean, she said as much, the kings know that the war's been good for them. But she's the only one to have the means to have a broader view, and the idealism to risk it all in search of a solution where demons and humans coexist peacefully. Instead of, say, leveraging her superior knowledge to outright win the war.
Because I can't believe that there are no scholars, philosophers, educated and experienced statesmen, etc. in the human countries. That there's no-one with an open mind and a broad view of the world, who thinks there must be a way out of this situation. It shouldn't even necessarily be the exact same idea the Demon King thought of, just, you know, something.

In ep 1 there was that prince, Hirakawa Daisuke's character who did stop and wonder if there was a point in being at war, but then he backed off when his dad told him that their lands were crap yadda-yadda. (Which, by the way, had a loophole that I can't believe no-one ever stopped and thought about yet, even if only on a "hmmm, what would happen if...?" level. Also, if their circumstances really suck so much then how on earth had they survived as an independent kingdom until the war? Besides, it's not like the Nordic countries were ever particularly rich in bountiful farmland, and yet they managed to get by via growing hardy crops and doing other stuff such as fishing or trading timber. Also, vikings.)

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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
You assume that the setting of right of what everyone else is doing wrong means that the person that is doing the “setting right” is some sort of Messiah. It can be done this way, of course, e.g. Gundam Seed; and it can even be done violently, e.g. Children of Dune, but it is not a necessary consequence. The solution to how to “set everyone right” can be subtle and quite diabolical, as demonstrated in the short story “In a Good Cause-.” Having the person who is right be grandiose and didactic is a common failing, but it is not a necessary one where he is the one setting out to right the wrongs of the world.
I didn't really mean her being grandiose and didactic, just that she seems to be the only one who is considered by the writer as being objectively right. Which is, as I said, not a setting I enjoy. Sure, I guess it might be interesting to see her go around and persuade people, but since we know the Demon King is right it's kind of one-sided by default, if you know what I mean? But as I haven't read the source material I have no way to know for sure. We'll see.
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Old 2013-01-10, 18:21   Link #694
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Because I can't believe that there are no scholars, philosophers, educated and experienced statesmen, etc. in the human countries.
Real world human history has many examples of lengthy, largely counterproductive wars that caused much more harm than good. Where were the scholars, philosophers, and statesmen then?

Plus, it's not a question of lack of intelligence. It's a question of lack of motivation. For many in the human world, they reap the benefits of the war without enduring any of the associated costs. There is little motivation for them to try to think of "a better way" when the current situation is fine for them.

In the real world today, we have a situation where part of the world engages in little more than slave labor sweatshop work to provide cheap goods and clothes to the more developed parts of the world. How many of the people that benefit from that really stop to think about it? Of those people, how many truly try to find "a better way"?
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Old 2013-01-10, 18:33   Link #695
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Plus, it's not a question of lack of intelligence. It's a question of lack of motivation. For many in the human world, they reap the benefits of the war without enduring any of the associated costs. There is little motivation for them to try to think of "a better way" when the current situation is fine for them.
It is also a lack of influence and authority. DQ is in a unique position of being the leader of one half of the war and actually recognizing the war for it is.
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Old 2013-01-10, 18:56   Link #696
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
It is also a lack of influence and authority. DQ is in a unique position of being the leader of one half of the war and actually recognizing the war for it is.
She also has likely had access to whatever the demons have in the way of teaching and libraries. From the sound of it, the demons have been to more than one world. Their libraries may be extensive. She may well have information that human scholars and leaders, however well intentioned some of them could be, just don't have access to.
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Old 2013-01-10, 19:02   Link #697
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Because I can't believe that there are no scholars, philosophers, educated and experienced statesmen, etc. in the human countries. That there's no-one with an open mind and a broad view of the world, who thinks there must be a way out of this situation. It shouldn't even necessarily be the exact same idea the Demon King thought of, just, you know, something.

In ep 1 there was that prince, Hirakawa Daisuke's character who did stop and wonder if there was a point in being at war, but then he backed off when his dad told him that their lands were crap yadda-yadda. (Which, by the way, had a loophole that I can't believe no-one ever stopped and thought about yet, even if only on a "hmmm, what would happen if...?" level. Also, if their circumstances really suck so much then how on earth had they survived as an independent kingdom until the war? Besides, it's not like the Nordic countries were ever particularly rich in bountiful farmland, and yet they managed to get by via growing hardy crops and doing other stuff such as fishing or trading timber. Also, vikings.)
You've made a lot of assumptions there. Do they have access to hardy crops that grow well in that climate? Do they have access to waterways for fishing or trade? Maybe there are already sea raiders in the area.
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I didn't really mean her being grandiose and didactic, just that she seems to be the only one who is considered by the writer as being objectively right. Which is, as I said, not a setting I enjoy. Sure, I guess it might be interesting to see her go around and persuade people, but since we know the Demon King is right it's kind of one-sided by default, if you know what I mean? But as I haven't read the source material I have no way to know for sure. We'll see.
I'll point out to you that the whole ep in all other media is only the Demon Lord presenting Hero the facts that what he belived was too simple. Instead of just doing the whole tealking heads bit for everything the anime used cuts to events that illustrated her point instead just haveing her talk about the examples, so of course they are going to paint her as being right. They are her points.

Currently we have next to no info on the backgrounds of anyone or what the major socio economic forces are of the setting. Is there a single church or are the many faiths and sects? Are they intrested in the goodwill of thier followers or are they corupt? Are there trade guilds and banks, and if so how much infunce do they hold? Are how are relations between the kingdoms or humans? How unified are the deamons? How and why does the Demon Lord have such advanced knowlage?
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Old 2013-01-10, 19:19   Link #698
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Real world human history has many examples of lengthy, largely counterproductive wars that caused much more harm than good. Where were the scholars, philosophers, and statesmen then?
By this logic, real world human history also had lengthy, largely counterproductive wars with increasingly brutal weaponry, and yet humanity hasn't been destroyed yet. Even in the Thirty Years' War which was perhaps the most brutal European war until the Napoleonic wars (or perhaps even worse than that) and went on for twice as long as the one in this show, humanity survived. Sure, millions died, it affected the economy, the population and of course politics to a great degree, but if we want to be as callous as real life often is - this is pretty normal. Also, where were the enlightened, intelligent, idealist monarchs who stepped down from their throne to carry out their (presumably intricate) plan to stop the war? Do you think it would've had a chance to work?

Basically, I was talking about what I think is a writing issue.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Plus, it's not a question of lack of intelligence. It's a question of lack of motivation. For many in the human world, they reap the benefits of the war without enduring any of the associated costs. There is little motivation for them to try to think of "a better way" when the current situation is fine for them.
But it's not, because their situation is precarious. What if something happens to the buffer zone? Revolts may happen among the soldiers, the demons may overwhelm them, the king might get overthrown by someone who decides to put pressure on the central countries, or just says "screw you guys, we're with the demons now"... And this is only one potentially problematic aspect. It's not like they can just lean back and say "okay, we can be sure that this war will go on like this for another decade so we can relax." Politicians and merchants have to plan ahead... If the Demon King is right and there are a few humans who realize that this war is seriously bad for a number of reasons then what's stopping at least a handful of them to take the next step and think about what to do about it? (The plot. )

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In the real world today, we have a situation where part of the world engages in little more than slave labor sweatshop work to provide cheap goods and clothes to the more developed parts of the world. How many of the people that benefit from that really stop to think about it? Of those people, how many truly try to find "a better way"?
The real world today is not even remotely similar to the world in Maou Yuusha, though. I don't see a point in forcing comparisons.

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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
You've made a lot of assumptions there. Do they have access to hardy crops that grow well in that climate? Do they have access to waterways for fishing or trade? Maybe there are already sea raiders in the area.
They had to survive on something, and it appears they had survived well enough to provide enough soldiers who are able to defend the entire continent(?) without having to rely on soldiers from other countries (at least that's how I understood the situation, but correct me if I'm wrong). The king guy said something along the lines of "before the war we had an uncertain existence" - If they seriously can't support themselves with anything at all I wonder why they still existed as an independent kingdom before the war. (And why they have so many strong men who can ward off an entire invading army.)

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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
I'll point out to you that the whole ep in all other media is only the Demon Lord presenting Hero the facts that what he belived was too simple. Instead of just doing the whole tealking heads bit for everything the anime used cuts to events that illustrated her point instead just haveing her talk about the examples, so of course they are going to paint her as being right. They are her points.
Perhaps this is the case. Perhaps not. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Currently we have next to no info on the backgrounds of anyone or what the major socio economic forces are of the setting. Is there a single church or are the many faiths and sects? Are they intrested in the goodwill of thier followers or are they corupt? Are there trade guilds and banks, and if so how much infunce do they hold? Are how are relations between the kingdoms or humans? How unified are the deamons? How and why does the Demon Lord have such advanced knowlage?
As I mentioned earlier, I hope the show will touch on these. It would be nice if they had a reasonably complex setting with many variables that may affect the Demon King's plans.

ETA
For what it's worth, before anyone misunderstands: I'm not saying the show is bad.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-10 at 19:55.
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Old 2013-01-10, 19:55   Link #699
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
By this logic, real world human history also had lengthy, largely counterproductive wars with increasingly brutal weaponry, and yet humanity hasn't been destroyed yet. Even in the Thirty Years' War which was perhaps the most brutal European war until the Napoleonic wars (or perhaps even worse than that) and went on for twice as long as the one in this show, humanity survived. Sure, millions died, it affected the economy, the population and of course politics to a great degree, but if we want to be as callous as real life often is - this is pretty normal. Also, where were the enlightened, intelligent, idealist monarchs who stepped down from their throne to carry out their (presumably intricate) plan to stop the war? Do you think it would've had a chance to work?
My point is simply that it's hardly unthinkable for humanity as a whole to be very short-sighted when it comes to war. We see it in our own history.

With this in mind, I don't see the big problem in someone like the Demon King being the first to see what's wrong with the current situation, and to begin to chart a course out of it.

If you look at many of the major social revolutions in human history, they tended to be focused around specific individuals. Gandi. Nelson Mendela. Martin Luther King Jr.

Change, when it happens, has to start somewhere. I don't see why it's so problematic for such change, in this anime, to start with the Demon King. I'll grant you that it would be nice if she encounters people who are quick on the uptake, as it were, and long had thoughts on the war similar to her's.


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But it's not, because their situation is precarious.
"Merchants" (aka businessmen and entrepreneurs) are not infrequently short-sighted. Just look at modern world history over the last 20 years or so. How many people were victimized by the tech stock bubble imploding? And then we had the massive meltdown from back in 2008. How well did our politicians prepare us for that?


I can get why you don't like the way this narrative seems to be going. But I get the impression that this part of the narrative is "take it or leave it", so you'll probably have to adjust to it if you want to enjoy the show.
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Old 2013-01-10, 21:19   Link #700
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
They had to survive on something, and it appears they had survived well enough to provide enough soldiers who are able to defend the entire continent(?) without having to rely on soldiers from other countries (at least that's how I understood the situation, but correct me if I'm wrong). The king guy said something along the lines of "before the war we had an uncertain existence" - If they seriously can't support themselves with anything at all I wonder why they still existed as an independent kingdom before the war. (And why they have so many strong men who can ward off an entire invading army.)
You may want to rewatch the start. All the kingdoms pooled thier men and lanuched a massive strike on the Gate that the demons came through and are holding it at the same time the demons took an island and since then have been launching atacks from there and have little hope of getting reinfocements untill the Gate is retaken, these atacks are what the southern kingdoms are holding off which are pretty much sea raids. the fact that they are still holding the island implies they have a fairly impressive naval force ( I think we might have found those vikings you were looking for).

Although we haven't been given much info on the king and prince they have shown enough to reasonably assume that they are kind and care about thier subjects well being. If that is true the the king's statement that without the war funds they would have an uncertain existence points to at the current knowlage, farming, fishing and trade level of that kingdom and useing all thier resorces they can spare the best they can hope for is a tight winter for thier people and god help them if it is a bad winter. As for why do they live there you might as well ask why have humans lived in so many god forsaken places where one bad season could lead to disaster, it's kinda what we do. And for the some what large number of able body men for the armies: 15 years of war funds = 15 years of more food = 15 years of lesspeople dieing from stavation = more able bodied people.

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Perhaps this is the case. Perhaps not. We'll see.


As I mentioned earlier, I hope the show will touch on these. It would be nice if they had a reasonably complex setting with many variables that may affect the Demon King's plans.

ETA
For what it's worth, before anyone misunderstands: I'm not saying the show is bad.
I'm just pointing out they can't touch on everything in the first ep and the more complex a setting the more you need to easy into it so you don't lose everyone.
Just remember the whole ep was only the Demon Lord explaining how the world realy is to someone that saw it in almost childlike terms (demons bad, humans good, war bad) that doesn't understand the subtlties of economics (he's a RPG hero they sell thier stuff back for half the cost they buy it for) of course she had to dumb it down a bit.
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