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Old 2013-01-11, 19:50   Link #21
Marcus H.
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A serious fight can have fanservice (see Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon).

Now, can we get some closure to this issue?
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Old 2013-01-11, 19:51   Link #22
Sol Falling
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I don't remember how much fanservice Strike Witches had in any of its "serious" scenes, but if it did have any, the fanservice didn't bother me any. On some level I think the "if the scene is good enough (i.e. tension, drama, etc.), then it doesn't need fanservice" argument can be turned on its head: if the tension/drama is high enough to pull you into the scene, then there's no reason to be distracted by a bit of fanservice.

My feeling is that Strike Witches was certainly compelling enough in terms of its actual content (particularly Season 1, and episode 6 in Season 2) that the fanservice did not bother me at all. And I'm getting a similar impression from Vividred. Compared to, say, Senran Kagura this season, which I am watching with much lesser hopes of any genuinely meaningful story.

I think the viewers who complain of not being able to take Strike Witches seriously might be misinterpreting the intent or not synchronising with most of the scenes. There are moments when Strike Witches carries off "serious" very effectively, such as when one of the witches gets injured in battle, regardless of fanservice. The point is actually that most of the time, Strike Witches is not trying to be "serious" at all (in the sense of gravitas, weightiness, grimness or whatever). Most of Strike Witches' drama arises instead from 'hotblooded' elements (like passion, wanting to protect people, etc.) for which the mere visual presence of sexuality does not really impact negatively.

For example, you know how there's that saying/idea that a female warrior does not feel embarrassed if she is exposed in the course of battle. That is because, in embracing her duty/identity as a warrior, it would be a failure to be distracted by the feminine aspects of her sexuality. In the same way, whenever any of the Strike Witches characters got heated up about any goal/issue which they were truly passionate about (i.e. protecting people, overcoming themself, reaching their dream, whatever) there is no reason for me to be distracted by their sexuality.

It is beside the point for now because Vividred has not yet really had a fighting/action scene, and has even been a bit conservative with the fanservice (ass shots/etc., although what was there was certainly very well done ). However, I think that even if Vividred ends up including a bit of gratuity into its action scenes, that won't be an obstacle at all to it telling a serious story.
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Old 2013-01-11, 19:51   Link #23
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Fate/Stay night has fanservice, and its the same franchise.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:03   Link #24
hyl
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Depends, eventhough i haven't watched Vivid Red Operation yet but i don't think it's too distracting unless the fanservice goes really overboard like in Aika
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:11   Link #25
Midonin
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It doesn't bother me. Even in a show that has an element normally considered fanservice as a central story element (Manyuu Hikenchou, still one of my lesser known favorites), it doesn't bother me. As has been mentioned by others, there's a matter of the context of a series. The notion that any sexual fanservice is inherently not serious is also a little alien to me. Not to mention there are other circumstances - what if the scene being used is trying to say something about the interplay of sex and violence (it seems people are okay with the second, not so much with the first here)? Then in that case, it would have a reason to be there.

Being serious all the time, and not mixing that seriousness with anything else, is just as stagnating as any other element.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:16   Link #26
Ithekro
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Would Girls und Panzers be the opposite of this? Were in the action scenes you get fanservice....of the tanks, rather than the girls.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:17   Link #27
hyl
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Also this phenomenon is not that new, seeing that there are many animes with fanservice midbattle in the 90's (one of the more (in)famous ones is probably street fighter 2 the movie with Chun li barely dressed after her shower fighting Vega/Balrog/"Claw" or whatever people call him)
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:18   Link #28
Midonin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Would Girls und Panzers be the opposite of this? Were in the action scenes you get fanservice....of the tanks, rather than the girls.
That's a different topic. I have a tin ear for such fanservice, so I end up not noticing much of anything in those scenes.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:24   Link #29
relentlessflame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Were in the action scenes you get fanservice....of the tanks, rather than the girls.
When I split the tangent off to its own thread, I wanted to put "Sexual Fanservice", but the title was already too long. Maybe I'll edit it again to be more clear in that regard. Edit: Done now.

But yeah, I think there is indeed a whole separate conversation that could be had about what is "fanservice" in this context.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:31   Link #30
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Would Girls und Panzers be the opposite of this? Were in the action scenes you get fanservice....of the tanks, rather than the girls.
I actually like Girls und Panzer because there’s no unnecessary sexual fanservice even though they have the option to do it (like making the girls wear some revealing uniforms like in Muv-Luv or something). And bless the author/writer/maker of the series for not doing it.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:32   Link #31
Pocari_Sweat
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@Triple R:

Unfortunately, I think you missed the point of VRO. I don't mean to insult fans of this show or what their tastes are, but really I can tell right from the bat after skimming through the episode (I was curious about the next Yoshino trainwreck k ) that VRO is "meant" to be a fanservice series that largely (though not all) caters to "lolicon fans" and in VRO's specific case "ass fetishists". The "plot" is just icing and is just a tack-on. You do not watch this show for action (at least serious action), though it is part of it. Everyone has a guilty pleasure and if this is theirs, then all means go watch it and enjoy it. Just don't go yelling to the rest of the anime community that such a show is the best series ever and you're meant to take it seriously .

I know personally I'm not going to watch this series, but I'm not gonna go complain about it either. Now if say something like Fate/Zero had this kinda level of fanservice and nonsense, then yes I will be pretty mad too.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:37   Link #32
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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^ Wow, if what you said is true, then I guess I'll just stay far away from VRO. I actually came to this series almost blind except reading a bit of synopsis.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:40   Link #33
Midonin
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I kinda take umbrage at the idea that, for a show like VRO, the plot is simply "tacked on" or the show is a "guilty pleasure". It's like the anime community has this idea in its head that certain shows can only be enjoyed through a lens of detached irony. I haven't seen VRO yet (waiting on the simulcast), but I can say that I actually teared up a bit at the climax of the Strike Witches movie. That doesn't happen for something a person watches as a "guilty pleasure". That requires investment in the characters, the world, the events.

That Japan's a little more open about having some sexiness in its works is one of the things I like about it. It may not work for every series (and there are plenty that don't use it), but if it's there, it was likely meant to be there, and should be considered just another element, not cast aside and ignored.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:42   Link #34
Random32
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I'm sorta hoping the plot isn't purely an excuse to show us nice images of girls, but wouldn't be disappointed if that was true.

I think a nice story can come out of it. It's not like massive fanservice and good story conflict in any way.
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:45   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Depends, eventhough i haven't watched Vivid Red Operation yet but i don't think it's too distracting unless the fanservice goes really overboard like in Aika
LoLs.. Aika is obviously "declared" as ecchi. Vividred Ops on the other hand is uhmm.. magical girls but its common sense that its fanservice when in the opening you got these on the screen...

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Old 2013-01-11, 20:50   Link #36
Pocari_Sweat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
^ Wow, if what you said is true, then I guess I'll just stay far away from VRO. I actually came to this series almost blind except reading a bit of synopsis.
The fact that the PVs and promo images largely focused on zoomed in little girl's asses or in "suggestive" yuri positions, I already knew what I was expecting so yeh... .

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my guilty pleasures too. I mean I don't think I've laughed as much as anything else this season so far than Haganai season 2. That was one "suggestive" and "innuendo-centric" ep
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:52   Link #37
Om Nerabdator
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Honestly i dont see a problem with VRO, plp should of known the kind of FS was gonna be in it if you watched strike witches. i think it blends together really well, if you want action scenes without ecchi then you watch Ippo not a show about loli girls who can transform with an unknown power....you should know better wat was gonna happen the premise is not new action+ecchi has been around for a damn long time
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Old 2013-01-11, 20:52   Link #38
Marcus H.
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Pocari Sweat:

Quote:
You do not watch this show for action (at least serious action), though it is part of it.
I strongly disagree.

Quote:
I don't mean to insult fans of this show or what their tastes are, but really I can tell right from the bat after skimming through the episode (I was curious about the next Yoshino trainwreck k ) that VRO is "meant" to be a fanservice series that largely (though not all) caters to "lolicon fans" and in VRO's specific case "ass fetishists".

[...]Just don't go yelling to the rest of the anime community that such a show is the best series ever and you're meant to take it seriously .
Well, it might not be the "best series ever" since all we've seen in this series is one episode, but it's too early to tell, anyway. Also, I may understand that you're annoyed at those who are too vocal about a series being the "best series ever", but I'm just as annoyed at people who refuse to believe that a series has fans who actually take the series' story seriously.

Quote:
^ Wow, if what you said is true, then I guess I'll just stay far away from VRO. I actually came to this series almost blind except reading a bit of synopsis.
Of course, everyone will be coming blind to this series because it's an original concept (i.e., not an anime adaptation). How about making your own opinion about it instead of parroting someone else's?
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:03   Link #39
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I honestly don't understand the way your brain works if you're making this argument. I don't mean that as some sort of a slight, but I just don't understand it. I can only try to help you understand the way I see it myself so at least you can see where some people are coming from, even if you don't see it that way yourself.

When I see a "serious fight", I always consider it in the context of the work in which its presented.
But "serious fight" is the context. Or to be more precise, "fighting" is what is happening, and "serious" is the context. The stakes are high and/or the combatants are taking this very seriously, and so we have a serious context for this fight.

My point is just because a serious fight takes place in a relatively lighthearted work doesn't detract from the seriousness of the fight itself. And with a serious fight I don't want to be distracted by fanservicey elements that are completely superfluous to the fight itself.

Now, a female character may look attractive in combat just because she has an attractive character design in general. That's fine. And I don't have a problem with "plug suits" because they typically make sense in-canon. But that's different than the camera taking a perverted "male gaze" approach that I think is simply unwarranted and very distracting when what the camera is "filming" is a serious fight.

And besides, there's just no need of it. Isn't there enough time in non-action scenes for this stuff?


Quote:

Fate/Zero is a very dark, serious show pretty much from end-to-end. It has its mood, its sense of direction, and its own style. To do something that is inconsistent with its own established style would be jarring, and unlikely to be well-received by the audience who was expecting something else. But this is a bright and colourful show focused on cute heroines, and it established that fanservice is an element of the show throughout. So once we understand that this is just part of its style, even in "serious fights", then it ceases to be jarring within its own established framework.
I strongly disagree. I continue to find it jarring, completely unnecessary, and detracting from the quality of the fight scenes.

The fact is that many anime shows gravitate seamlessly between fanservicey lighthearted scenes and non-fanservicey action scenes, so just because there's fanservice in lighthearted scenes doesn't mean that I expect them in action scenes.


Quote:
You have a very specific personal set of expectations that apply to all serious fighting scenes regardless of the show... but that isn't the way it has to be.
They're not a "set of expectations", like some grand checklist. I just want "the cameras" to film a serious action scene like I would any fight presented seriously in real life. When pro wrestlers start fighting, you don't see constant focus on their asses, because that would take most viewers out of the match that you, as the viewer, are meant to take with some degree of seriousness (even if it is entirely scripted of course). And pro wrestling has gone through many eras, some more "family friendly" than others, and yet I would say this expectation remains for most viewers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
A serious fight can have fanservice (see Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon).
Of course it can. That's not what we're discussing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Fate/Stay night has fanservice, and its the same franchise.
Good point. Which is another reason why Obelisk ze Tormentor's comparison is perfectly fine, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't remember how much fanservice Strike Witches had in any of its "serious" scenes, but if it did have any, the fanservice didn't bother me any. On some level I think the "if the scene is good enough (i.e. tension, drama, etc.), then it doesn't need fanservice" argument can be turned on its head: if the tension/drama is high enough to pull you into the scene, then there's no reason to be distracted by a bit of fanservice.
With all due respect, I think that's a poor argument.

Fanservice tends to be loud, by nature, much like a hawaiian t-shirt is loud. A hawaiian t-shirt tends to get noticed by people who love it, by people who hate it, and everyone between. Sexual fanservice is the same way.

And things that are loud are inherently distracting.


Quote:
I think the viewers who complain of not being able to take Strike Witches seriously might be misinterpreting the intent or not synchronising with most of the scenes. There are moments when Strike Witches carries off "serious" very effectively, such as when one of the witches gets injured in battle, regardless of fanservice. The point is actually that most of the time, Strike Witches is not trying to be "serious" at all (in the sense of gravitas, weightiness, grimness or whatever). Most of Strike Witches' drama arises instead from 'hotblooded' elements (like passion, wanting to protect people, etc.) for which the mere visual presence of sexuality does not really impact negatively.
I really don't get your point here. "Hotblooded" and "serious" are hardly mutually exclusive. I mean, if they are mutually exclusive, then Gurren Lagann and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure must be total comedies.

And "wanting to protect people" is a serious character motivation. Honestly, that's about as serious as it gets.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:12   Link #40
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Of course, everyone will be coming blind to this series because it's an original concept (i.e., not an anime adaptation). How about making your own opinion about it instead of parroting someone else's?
Mind you that I already watched the 1st ep before I even posting on this thread. Thus, I already have my own opinion. So, what’s that “parroting” supposed to mean? I’m just confirming the things I didn’t know from Pocari’s post.

What I mean by blind is: I don’t know that this series will be too much fanservice-y for my taste, not how the whole story will turn out. Like I said, I only read a little synopsis of it and pic of magical girls before watching the 1st ep. I had no idea that I’d be watching a lot of loli’s ass.
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