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Old 2013-01-11, 21:13   Link #41
Marcus H.
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With all due respect, I think that's a very poor argument.

Fanservice tends to be loud, by nature, much like a hawaiian t-shirt is loud. A hawaiian t-shirt tends to get noticed by people who love it, by people who hate it, and everyone between. Sexual fanservice is the same way.

And things that are loud are inherently distracting.
The loudness of fanservice is in the eye of the beholder.
One person may find himself magnetized towards a pair of bewbies in a catfight between ninja, but another may acknowledge the presence of scanty clothing and provocative poses and still look at the scene as a battle between two warriors.

Following that analogy, it's seeing someone wearing an otaku shirt in the middle of a crowd of normal people. It can be distracting to some, but some may choose to admire the guy's guts to wear a MEGA MILK shirt or to plainly ignore it.

Quote:
What I mean by blind is: I don’t know that this series will be too much fanservice-y for my taste, not how the whole story will turn out. Like I said, I only read a little synopsis of it and pic of magical girls before watching the 1st ep. I have no idea that I’ll be watching a lot of loli’s ass.
The PV showed a piece of ass on the very first minute—second, even!
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:14   Link #42
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Well, it might not be the "best series ever" since all we've seen in this series is one episode, but it's too early to tell, anyway. Also, I may understand that you're annoyed at those who are too vocal about a series being the "best series ever", but I'm just as annoyed at people who refuse to believe that a series has fans who actually take the series' story seriously.
You have missed my point and added in a strawman for the last sentence. If you like VRO and want to take it seriously by all means go for it as I'm not gonna go lecture anyone about it nor am I going to deny their existence (no idea where you got that from). My post is aimed at people like Triple R who are "upset" that he didn't get what he was expecting for a series like VRO. I mean this series already had PVs and promo images of little girls in suggestive poses, has Yoshino on script and is an anime original. To me, this is like complaining To love Ru has too much fanservice and not enough focus on the sci-fi elements.

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The PV showed a piece of ass on the very first minute—second, even!
Maybe not everyone watches promo material of series they watch? :/
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:19   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
You have missed my point and added in a strawman for the last sentence. If you like VRO and want to take it seriously by all means go for it as I'm not gonna go lecture anyone about it nor am I going to deny their existence (no idea where you got that from). My post is aimed at people like Triple R who are "upset" that he didn't get what he was expecting for a series like VRO. I mean this series already had PVs and promo images of little girls in suggestive poses, has Yoshino on script and is an anime original. To me, this is like complaining To love Ru has too much fanservice and not enough focus on the sci-fi elements.
Just to be clear, I'm not "upset".

This was just the one element of VRO that I didn't like. Most of my post on VRO's first episode was complimentary in nature, and I largely enjoyed it, but alas, the one criticism I made is what spurred a lot of discussion.

So much so that it started this thread on General Anime which, I should add, is not a discussion that I personally wanted to have on General Anime (relentlessflame moved it here, and I never asked for it to be moved). I was just interested in discussing VRO itself on the VRO thread.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:19   Link #44
Midonin
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
One person may find himself magnetized towards a pair of bewbies in a catfight between ninja, but another may acknowledge the presence of scanty clothing and provocative poses and still look at the scene as a battle between two warriors.
This is more or less exactly what happened to me with Senran Kagura. The show has a lot of fanservice by design, but because of the way it was presented (around the time the transformation sequence and jidai geki narrator kicked in), I had become more interested in it as a ninja-styled magical girl show than anything else. Sure, Asuka had fallen into the river and gotten a gratuitous wet t-shirt scene, but the start of her friendship with Homura was also shaping up to be interesting. In the end, I had barely noticed the fanservice.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:21   Link #45
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The PV showed a piece of ass on the very first minute—second, even!
Did you not read my post? Read it again, it's a short post. It won't take much effort.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
^ Wow, if what you said is true, then I guess I'll just stay far away from VRO. I actually came to this series almost blind except reading a bit of synopsis.
There, I said I only read short synopsis (and a promotional pic of it with magical girls in it). I haven't visit VRO thread or watch any PV before it.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:23   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post

There, I said I only read short synopsis and a promotional pic of it with magical girls in it. I haven't visit VRO thread or watch any PV before it.
Same here. I don't watch PVs for every anime show I check out.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:23   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post


Of course it can. That's not what we're discussing.

mate thats exactly what we're discussing in this thread
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:25   Link #48
Marcus H.
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Pocari_Sweat: You had me at "You do not watch this show for action (at least serious action), though it is part of it," the same thing I heard from Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon early into the series. Of course I'm annoyed, but hopefully those people have been silenced by the series' sales over two seasons. But it did change how I see people right now; they're more impulsive when it comes to reacting over stuff, and I certainly am no exception to that.

TLR is different because it's based on the manga, unlike Vividred that is an anime-original series. You cannot read about Vividred in advance. For those who expect To Love-Ru to be a sci-fi, there's more than one hundred chapters of the manga to read, and they only have themselves to blame for that.

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Did you not read my post? Read it again, it's a short post. It won't take much effort.
I did.

Why would you do that?
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:26   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, a female character may look attractive in combat just because she has an attractive character design in general. That's fine. And I don't have a problem with "plug suits" because they typically make sense in-canon. But that's different than the camera taking a perverted "male gaze" approach that I think is simply unwarranted and very distracting when what the camera is "filming" is a serious fight.
Ask yourself the following: if such stuff's truly as unwarranted as you say, then why is it there? why do you think it's there?

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But "serious fight" is the context. Or to be more precise, "fighting" is what is happening, and "serious" is the context. The stakes are high and/or the combatants are taking this very seriously, and so we have a serious context for this fight.

My point is just because a serious fight takes place in a relatively lighthearted work doesn't detract from the seriousness of the fight itself. And with a serious fight I don't want to be distracted by fanservicey elements that are completely superfluous to the fight itself.
You seem to have this weird tendency of taking things much more seriously than they're supposed to be taken...
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:29   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The loudness of fanservice is in the eye of the beholder.
I've seen more than enough anime threads to know that when fanservice happens in an anime episode, very often discussion centers around that fanservice shot.

Let's not play coy here - People tend to notice fanservice shots; the amount of discussion surrounding them is proof enough of that. Fanservice shots do tend to be loud.


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Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator View Post
mate thats exactly what we're discussing in this thread
No, it's not.

Were discussing whether or not we like it being there. That's entirely different than discussing whether or not it can be there.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:35   Link #51
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I kinda take umbrage at the idea that, for a show like VRO, the plot is simply "tacked on" or the show is a "guilty pleasure". It's like the anime community has this idea in its head that certain shows can only be enjoyed through a lens of detached irony.
I agree with you. I actually find it sort of vaguely demeaning of the show and its fanbase. There are shows that I have enjoyed despite things I recognize as areas that may negatively impact the enjoyment of others, but I never feel "guilty" for the things I like. It implies that there's something wrong with liking it, and I find that rather backwards and repressive.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And besides, there's just no need of it. Isn't there enough time in non-action scenes for this stuff?
But why shouldn't there be shows that choose to blend things in this way? Just because you don't like it and would prefer the keep the potatoes away from the meat and the veggies doesn't mean it's the only way to enjoy a meal. I mean, there's nothing wrong with your view either, but this insistence that it should be keep separate is just a personal preference. I don't see anything inherently superior of that view, despite your "there's no need for it" insinuation.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I just want "the cameras" to film a serious action scene like I would any fight presented seriously in real life.
I want anime directors to be able to do all sorts of things, even things that you may not do in real life. I know that I won't be a fan of all of it, but I don't necessarily consider it a problem when a director takes an approach that I don't prefer.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Fanservice tends to be loud, by nature, much like a hawaiian t-shirt is loud. A hawaiian t-shirt tends to get noticed by people who love it, by people who hate it, and everyone between. Sexual fanservice is the same way.

And things that are loud are inherently distracting.
Really, it doesn't have to be that way. Once you've acclimatized yourself to a world where everyone wears "hawaiian t-shirts" all the times, it stops being distracting. You stop noticing it. It stops being "inherently distracting", but without at the same time becoming superfluous. It becomes part of the flavour of the show (or the character of the locale). That doesn't mean that (perhaps unlike Hawaiian shirts) people won't still comment when they find it particularly attractive.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
alas, the one criticism I made is what spurred a lot of discussion.

So much so that it started this thread on General Anime which, I should add, is not a discussion that I personally wanted to have on General Anime (relentlessflame moved it here, and I never asked for it to be moved). I was just interested in discussing VRO itself on the VRO thread.
The criticism was moved here because there isn't really enough actually shown in VRO to discuss this issue in the context of that show (yet). It's more of a complaint in the context of your negative experience with Strike Witches, and your hope for VRO. In my view, anyway, it's better to have this tangent in a separate thread because it's about more than just this one show, whether you intended for the comment to result in this tangent notwithstanding.

Everyone can still discuss VRO in the VRO thread, of course.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:35   Link #52
Marcus H.
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Triple_R: Whether you like it or not, fanservice, especially sexual fanservice, exists and will continue to exist, and you will eventually notice them. Deal with it.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:43   Link #53
Traece
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I suspect most people these days will find fanservice to be very distracting and unnecessary. It obviously serves no purpose except behind the fourth wall.

It annoys me to see all of these action anime coming out and they're full of fanservice. I hated Highschool of the Dead for that reason, because all it was was fanservice and girls with unrealistic bust sizes slaying zombies. Sure, it's entertaining to some people, but not to critics and not to vocal viewers. The worst thing about it is that it hurts the characters and by doing so it diminishes the quality of the anime overall. The more pointless fanservice I see of a character the less I care about that character, and by that I also care less about what I'm watching. When fanservice shots are a huge part of an anime it becomes an anime centered around a gimmick, which is a fantastic indication that I'm watching something that was intended to get sales and not ratings. I don't want to watch anime pandering to the masses of people that like copious amounts of fanservice. I want to watch quality entertainment.

As far as fanservice in general, I don't mind fanservice as long as it's rare or there's a purpose. I don't need to see side boob and ass shots every five minutes to be entertained. If the character is attractive and likable, and there's some funky situation going on or it's something where fanservice is obligatory, shoot. Shoot all you want. Do I want to see women getting their clothes ripped off and then close-ups of it? No. I want to see women ripping people's heads off, and then close-ups of them swimming in a pool of blood, AND THEN I want to see fanservice. Because I'm a man!

The fanservice issue kind of goes along with an issue that I have with a lot of anime. "Camera" work. I've seen too many anime with shoddy perspective on action shots, and it ruins those scenes because it's very difficult to process what I'm seeing when it's just not clear. I want to "see" the action, not the lightning quick flashes of something that's supposed to look like action. For all I know they could be doing the tango instead of swordfighting! Just stop. No, literally. Point the "camera" at the action, and stop moving it around everywhere.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:49   Link #54
Random32
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But "serious fight" is the context. Or to be more precise, "fighting" is what is happening, and "serious" is the context. The stakes are high and/or the combatants are taking this very seriously, and so we have a serious context for this fight.
Why does "serious" mean "no fanservice."

Quote:
My point is just because a serious fight takes place in a relatively lighthearted work doesn't detract from the seriousness of the fight itself. And with a serious fight I don't want to be distracted by fanservicey elements that are completely superfluous to the fight itself.
It doesn't just take place in a lighthearted work, it takes place in a fanservicey work.

I personally enjoy the fanservice.

Quote:
Now, a female character may look attractive in combat just because she has an attractive character design in general. That's fine. And I don't have a problem with "plug suits" because they typically make sense in-canon. But that's different than the camera taking a perverted "male gaze" approach that I think is simply unwarranted and very distracting when what the camera is "filming" is a serious fight.
I think it complements the fight. It makes the fight more interesting, because yay, ass shots. It is perverted, it would be out of place if the context of the series wasn't "yay fanservice," but that isn't true for this series.

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And besides, there's just no need of it. Isn't there enough time in non-action scenes for this stuff?
If you find it distracting during fight scenes, why wouldn't you find it distracting during conversation scenes?

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The fact is that many anime shows gravitate seamlessly between fanservicey lighthearted scenes and non-fanservicey action scenes, so just because there's fanservice in lighthearted scenes doesn't mean that I expect them in action scenes.
Beyond that you don't like them, what is wrong with fanservicey action scenes? A lot of us have expressed that we are either happy or apathetic about fanservice in action scenes.

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I just want "the cameras" to film a serious action scene like I would any fight presented seriously in real life.
Why?

Let's look at it another way. Let's reveal another one of Random32's weird hobbies. I enjoy watching (hot) girls wrestle. I want the best, most fanservicey shots of them possible. When I watch magical girls fight, I really wouldn't mind a similar philosophy in choosing where the cameras are positioned and focused.

It's all about how you approach it. I approached Fate/Zero from your point of view, so I wouldn't like fanservice in it, but I approached Vividred in the point of view present above, so I do like fanservice in it.

Quote:
Fanservice tends to be loud, by nature, much like a hawaiian t-shirt is loud.
Quote:
And things that are loud are inherently distracting.
For you. If I'm not in it for the fanservice, I really don't have trouble ignoring fanservice where it would be distracting. For example, there is a ton of fanservice (at least relative to KyoAni's adaptations) in LB!, I notice them, but I'm not really distracted from anything important.

Being noticed doesn't mean being distracted by.

Let's say I'm having lunch with a friend on a cafe on a busy street. I'm having a great discussion with said friend. Suddenly, a wild Hawaii shirt guy appears. I obviously notice him, but I'm not distracted by him. I don't feel the impulse to insult/compliment the shirt dude. I can continue my conversation as if nothing happened just fine.

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And "wanting to protect people" is a serious character motivation. Honestly, that's about as serious as it gets.
It is that way on the scale of "serious" vs "fluffy." However, it is not that way on a scale of "serious" vs "fanservice."

I think a lot of our disagreement comes from the fact that we are coming in with different thoughts about what "serious" is.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:50   Link #55
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I agree with you. I actually find it sort of vaguely demeaning of the show and its fanbase. There are shows that I have enjoyed despite things I recognize as areas that may negatively impact the enjoyment of others, but I never feel "guilty" for the things I like. It implies that there's something wrong with liking it, and I find that rather backwards and repressive.
So you never like things that a part of you knows is wrong?

I like overeating, but I know that it's wrong. Overeating at Christmas-time is a "guilty pleasure" that I allow myself. By recognizing that it's a guilty pleasure, I'm less likely to overindulge in it to the point that it could be counterproductive.


Quote:
But why shouldn't there be shows that choose to blend things in this way? Just because you don't like it and would prefer the keep the potatoes away from the meat and the veggies doesn't mean it's the only way to enjoy a meal. I mean, there's nothing wrong with your view either, but this insistence that it should be keep separate is just a personal preference.
And all I did was state a personal preference. Someone refused to accept that personal preference. So I explained my personal preference . That lead into a wider debate, but ultimately I'm only expressing my personal preference.


Quote:
I don't see anything inherently superior of that view, despite your "there's no need for it" insinuation.
Well, is there a need for it? There's plenty of non-action scenes that you can put the fanservice in to please people who want fanservice. And then you can keep the action scenes free of fanservice for those of us who are distracted by it.

That certainly seems win/win to me.


Quote:
I want anime directors to be able to do all sorts of things, even things that you may not do in real life. I know that I won't be a fan of all of it, but I don't necessarily consider it a problem when a director takes an approach that I don't prefer.
Well, most people do. Many people were highly critical of the director approach taking in certain Shin Sekai Yori episodes, for example.

People have a right to their opinions. People have a right to disagree with any approach that an anime chooses to take. People have the ability and the right to like some of what they watch, but not all of it, and to express both. There's nothing wrong with any of that.


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Really, it doesn't have to be that way. Once you've acclimatized yourself to a world where everyone wears "hawaiian t-shirts" all the times,
Maybe I don't want to acclimatize myself to a world where everyone wears hawaiian t-shits all the time because I don't love them that much, and prefer a world with more clothing variety.
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Old 2013-01-11, 22:00   Link #56
Random32
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I like overeating, but I know that it's wrong. Overeating at Christmas-time is a "guilty pleasure" that I allow myself. By recognizing that it's a guilty pleasure, I'm less likely to overindulge in it to the point that it could be counterproductive.
Why is fanservice wrong?

I'm guilty for watching fanservice since the community around me tends to think it's wrong, but there really isn't any reason other than societal conditioning for that.

Quote:
Well, is there a need for it? There's plenty of non-action scenes that you can put the fanservice in to please people who want fanservice. And then you can keep the action scenes free of fanservice for those of us who are distracted of it.
What about the people who want fanservice integrated with action scenes?

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That certainly seems win/win to me.
You ignored a 3rd party. It's win/win/lose.

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Well, most people do. Many people were highly critical of the director approach taking in certain Shin Sekai Yori episodes.
Episode wise there are a lot of people that do, mainly because we are in it for the long run. It's hard to just not watch episodes done by certain staff because you don't like their style.

However, it's a lot easier with complete series. If a series doesn't take a direction I like, I just don't watch it, instead of complaining.

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Maybe I don't want to acclimatize myself to a world where everyone wears hawaiian t-shits all the time because I don't love them that much, and prefer a world with more clothing variety.
Then learn to ignore "distracting" things. I would hope that you don't lose your train of thought when talking to someone in real life when a person in a Hawaii shirt walks by, despite noticing it, you weren't distracted by it.
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Old 2013-01-11, 22:09   Link #57
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In the right context "fanservice" is fine. I don't even believe every instance of an ass shot or whatever should even be called fanservice but the community seems to be content on labeling it as such so what can I do...

Anyway it doesn't bother me that studios do this, what bothers me is how enamored fans are by these scenes. I've said this before, unless you're 13, 14, or around that age then you have no business making "bewbz" the focus of your viewing experience with an action orientated show. If you want porn, watch porn. There are certain series I won't even discuss with people because the fanbase seems to center around the fanservice. Fans make that a reality.
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Fanservice in fights can definitely work as long as the fight itself is presented with comedic or not-so-serious tone (like what we get so far in this anime). But when it comes to serious fight (as in, the fighters can get badly hurt or even die, or the fight itself is intended to cause grief), I agree with Triple R that they should be more focusing on the actual fighting elements as in "attacks thrown, where they hit, and how the combatants respond to the attacks" and the likes. For example, how would you feel if (in Fate/Zero) Ufotable decided to focus on Saber’s boobs and ass whenever she fights? I personally will consider it insulting.
As I said, it's fans who choose what they focus on while they're watching. A studio can and will do whatever they feel is necessary to grab viewer's attention, lowbrow are not. You can't blame anyone but you're self if you choose to fall for their cheaper tactics.
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Old 2013-01-11, 22:10   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So you never like things that a part of you knows is wrong?

I like overeating, but I know that it's wrong. Overeating at Christmas-time is a "guilty pleasure" that I allow myself. By recognizing that it's a guilty pleasure, I'm less likely to overindulge in it to the point that it could be counterproductive.
I don't consider anime selection to be a "vice" like overeating, which can be objectively bad for your health. There's very little "objective" about what anime one person enjoys vs. another person, nor do I see any need for that sort of a judgement call. If you enjoy it, that's good enough.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, is there a need for it? There's plenty of non-action scenes that you can put the fanservice in to please people who want fanservice. And then you can keep the action scenes free of fanservice for those of us who are distracted by it.

That certainly seems win/win to me.
Having the two blended together could be a core element of the show's uniqueness. I don't think we should deny a combination of elements just because some don't like this particular blend.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Maybe I don't want to acclimatize myself to a world where everyone wears hawaiian t-shits all the time because I don't love them that much, and prefer a world with more clothing variety.
This is the very same straw man that you used the other day. You said yourself that there are plenty of other shows that keep the fanservice out of the serious action scenes. The fact that this show may not is part of the global "clothing variety". So, in that sense, it's better that some shows like this do exist. It doesn't mean all shows will do this (and they haven't so far).
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Old 2013-01-11, 22:14   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Write View Post
Anyway it doesn't bother me that studios do this, what bothers me is how enamored fans are by these scenes. I've said this before, unless you're 13, 14, or around that age then you have no business making "bewbz" the focus of your viewing experience with an action orientated show. If you want porn, watch porn.
There's a whole spectrum of things between outright porn and none at all. This isn't an "either or" thing.
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Old 2013-01-11, 22:18   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
There's a whole spectrum of things between outright porn and none at all. This isn't an "either or" thing.
That's the way I see it when it comes to eccentrics who love fanservice.

Don't go to a baseball game if you only want to enjoy the popcorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Having the two blended together could be a core element of the show's uniqueness. I don't think we should deny a combination of elements just because some don't like this particular blend.
A show about vomit can be unique, but that doesn't make it any less grotesque.
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