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Old 2013-01-12, 14:05   Link #61
Eragon
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^ I was saying - Given how Maira behaves towards Saki, saying that, to Maria, Saki is merely a friend-with-benefits is really in poor taste and without much basis.
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Old 2013-01-12, 14:47   Link #62
kuromitsu
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What I really don't understand is why is it so important whom she loves "more" (as if the situation was as simple!). It's like a weird ship war.

Obviously, she and Saki are much more than just friends with benefits. Obviously, she and Mamoru are not a forced relationship that Maria feels uncomfortable or unsatisfied with but a deep and close one. And Maria made the choice to give up everything she has, including her relationship with Saki, to stay with Mamoru to keep him safe and alive. At this point, at this display of love and care, I'd say it's totally irrelevant to argue about whom she loves "more" or "better." Romantic love is not all love that there is nor is it any "better" than non-romantic love.

(Not to mention, there's more to it than just "oh, I love him more" or "oh, I love her more but he needs me grumble grumble"... And given some developments that I think everyone knows already, I think it's pretty much a moot point anyway.)

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-12 at 15:01.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:37   Link #63
Eragon
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
What I really don't understand is why is it so important whom she loves "more" (as if the situation was as simple!). It's like a weird ship war.

Obviously, she and Saki are much more than just friends with benefits. Obviously, she and Mamoru are not a forced relationship that Maria feels uncomfortable or unsatisfied with but a deep and close one. And Maria made the choice to give up everything she has, including her relationship with Saki, to stay with Mamoru to keep him safe and alive. At this point, at this display of love and care, I'd say it's totally irrelevant to argue about whom she loves "more" or "better." Romantic love is not all love that there is nor is it any "better" than non-romantic love.

(Not to mention, there's more to it than just "oh, I love him more" or "oh, I love her more but he needs me grumble grumble"... And given some developments that I think everyone knows already, I think it's pretty much a moot point anyway.)

Couldn't have said it better. And this isn't exactly a show for shipping couples anyway.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:55   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
I understand you don't like yuri couples but that's no reason to project your feelings over her character and attack her if she doesn't measure up to them.
Was that directed to me?

I wasn't pushing her down actually. She becoming an interesting character when she started to show worries for Mamoru.

Probably love is part of her "whatever" character development IMHO. When we we're struck during the Bonobo arc, I'm honestly disgusted and lost confidence thinking she maybe have an eye for Saki. But when she choose to stay with Mamoru its became more shocking... I was just thinking what is going on between them.

I say choosing a person out of pity from the person you love is weird. Blame it to the director who had put confusion in the anime.

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Couldn't have said it better. And this isn't exactly a show for shipping couples anyway.
Blame it to the Bonobo arc. Now, it can't be helped but I think you'll be jumping with joy if it'll be Saki x Maria in the end.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:25   Link #65
youngrace
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Saki wasn't only a friend with benefits, just like Mamoru isn't just a "friend." She obviously deeply loves both, whether romantically or otherwise.

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-10, 15:06   Link #66
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Spoiler for For length, quote GenjiChan:


I made this account just to clarify some points about Maria, because it was all in episode 17 and it's just annoying me how people cannot see Maria's intentions. Honestly, you would have to be quite the fool to miss the explicit implications from her letter addressed to Saki (yes, I know, I know, this is such a paradox but I feel that it is necessary here).

First of all, Maria had told Saki, at length, about her immense disgust for their society. She goes on to outline the detriments of their town and society. That already says something about Maria. She DOES NOT CARE if she left her village or even her family. She mentions once about how sad she is to leave her parents but then says she's not even sure how her parents feel about her and if she herself had been eliminated (she posits that her parents will cry and then forget just like how Saki's parents did with her sister). So your argument that Maria made the "ultimate sacrifice" by leaving her village and her family is moot and quite frankly, laughable.

Secondly, she tells Saki she would rather be with Saki and that "that's how she really feels" but someone has to take care of Mamoru and "because Mamoru is already deemed a failure". Heck, she even says that she'd last longer than Mamoru surviving on her own outside the town. Maria KNOWS that Mamoru cannot be by himself, and as his closest friend, she feels it is her responsibility to ensure that he is safe. She even goes on to say that "If I abandon him, he won't survive". In another instance, she mentions that if Saki were to be in danger, "Satoru and I would come running to save you". I'm sure the lack of Mamoru in this declaration was not a mere accident; she is not confident enough in Mamoru's skills regardless of how much she loves him as a friend. Mamoru is not only lacking in this declaration but even during all of the flashback cutscenes as children and even Shun was shown. But Maria still wants to save Mamoru because honestly, who else will? Satoru gave him very little attention and Saki herself seemed annoyed by Mamoru's constant presence around Maria as they grew older.

Lastly: Maria professes her love to Saki several times in this letter and acknowledges and accepts Saki's imperfections and shining qualities. She also says that "I believe the bonds between us is stronger than that" (relative to the bond between parent and child). Moreover, she says that "not being able to see you or Satoru hurts more than anything" and I would assume anything means even being away from the town and her parents. Finally she signs her letter "With Love, Your Maria".

In sum, Maria chose to go with Mamoru because he is helpless and is already doomed to fail, and coupled with her disgust for their society, it was the perfect opportunity to leave once and for all. I suspect that her disgust for the society includes how, although she loves Saki very much, unrealistic it is because they are to be wed to heterosexual partners in the end. Maria loves Saki but she had to leave because I don't think she could stand seeing Saki wed off to someone else. P.S., I think Maria also hated the fact that she was objectified in the society.

Finally, in response to the bolded points above:

1) The so-called "Bonobo arc" was meant to educate the viewer about the hypersexualized society they live in. Moreover, seeing as how controlling their society is, adolescent homosexuality is the perfect birth control. For the adults who fear the children very much, I think their biggest nightmare would be to have raging teens giving birth to children left and right. After all, it has been programmed in their genes to be sexual when stressed out.

2) The director was not trying to confuse you. I think that is only your misunderstanding and confusion about the entire affair in the end, and your refusal to acknowledge that yes, it is an effective way to control the populace.

Of course, it can't be helped that you are stuck with your own beliefs, from what I assume your own culture's homophobia. Seeing as how entrenched your origin is with Roman Catholicism (don't get me wrong, I grew up in the Philippines myself), it cannot be helped that you are so prejudiced, now can it?.
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:38   Link #67
kuromitsu
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Not to reignite the whole "who loved whom more waah" discussion, but there are a few points that need clarification (heh).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
She DOES NOT CARE if she left her village or even her family.
You're simplifying this to a great deal. What she realized -after some time being away from the village, not when she decided to leave- was the tragic fact that her parents may not love her as much as she loves them. That if she was to be killed they wouldn't fight for her, they would accept her fate, be sad and move on, eventually forgetting about her. It's not that she doesn't care, she does care, which is why she even mentioned this.

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
Heck, she even says that she'd last longer than Mamoru surviving on her own outside the town.
She said that she would perhaps last for some more time in the town, but Mamoru has been already etc etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
I'm sure the lack of Mamoru in this declaration was not a mere accident; she is not confident enough in Mamoru's skills regardless of how much she loves him as a friend. Mamoru is not only lacking in this declaration but even during all of the flashback cutscenes as children and even Shun was shown.
There's a very simple explanation for all that: they only met Mamoru when they were 12, since he came from a different "elementary" school than the rest of Group 1. So he couldn't have been there to share all those pre-12 memories. So he was sort of an outsider, a "late addition" to the group, and while he was friends with everyone, Maria was pretty much the only one he formed a deep relationship with. (As for the cutscenes from after they're 12, well, there were scenes where Maria wasn't even present and couldn't have known about, so there's that. They were there more for the viewers' benefit than anything else.)

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
Lastly: Maria professes her love to Saki several times in this letter
Which reminds me, did the fansubbers really translate the opening formula as "to Saki, my love"? I look forward to them being consistent and using this in the letter to Saki from her mom where she uses the same formula to address her... (In my opinion there are times when it's not necessarily a good idea to embellish things.)

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
She also says that "I believe the bonds between us is stronger than that"
By which she meant the bonds between her, Saki and Satoru (and theoretically, "X"), just to be clear.

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In sum, Maria chose to go with Mamoru because he is helpless and is already doomed to fail, and coupled with her disgust for their society, it was the perfect opportunity to leave once and for all.
She wrote the letter after Satoru and Saki left, after putting two and two together (or rather, the info from Mamoru finally forming the "full" picture that we've known all along, that children who "disappear" are killed). She decided to leave with Mamoru before she had a chance to sit down and assess the situation and come to the realizations she mentions in the letter. She decided on first impulse. Mamoru can't go back to Kamisu 66 or he'll be killed. They can't trust anyone there with his life (or her own, for that matter), seeing what happened to others like Saki's sister, Reiko or "X". Mamoru decided that his only chance is to leave and live somewhere far away. She won't let him go alone. She had a chance to change her mind and go back to the town with Saki, and as she professes that's what she really wanted to do. But she didn't, for the reasons she lists in the letter.

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
I suspect that her disgust for the society includes how, although she loves Saki very much, unrealistic it is because they are to be wed to heterosexual partners in the end. Maria loves Saki but she had to leave because I don't think she could stand seeing Saki wed off to someone else. P.S., I think Maria also hated the fact that she was objectified in the society.
I still have no idea where people are getting these from, but I guess personal interpretations will vary wildly... (so I won't argue about them)
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Old 2013-02-11, 19:43   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post

I made this account just to clarify some points about Maria, because it was all in episode 17 and it's just annoying me how people cannot see Maria's intentions. Honestly, you would have to be quite the fool to miss the explicit implications from her letter addressed to Saki (yes, I know, I know, this is such a paradox but I feel that it is necessary here).
Hohoho... attacking me huh?

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
Secondly, she tells Saki she would rather be with Saki and that "that's how she really feels" but someone has to take care of Mamoru and "because Mamoru is already deemed a failure". Heck, she even says that she'd last longer than Mamoru surviving on her own outside the town. Maria KNOWS that Mamoru cannot be by himself, and as his closest friend, she feels it is her responsibility to ensure that he is safe. She even goes on to say that "If I abandon him, he won't survive". In another instance, she mentions that if Saki were to be in danger, "Satoru and I would come running to save you". I'm sure the lack of Mamoru in this declaration was not a mere accident; she is not confident enough in Mamoru's skills regardless of how much she loves him as a friend. Mamoru is not only lacking in this declaration but even during all of the flashback cutscenes as children and even Shun was shown. But Maria still wants to save Mamoru because honestly, who else will? Satoru gave him very little attention and Saki herself seemed annoyed by Mamoru's constant presence around Maria as they grew older.
The problem is that it was never hint that she has feelings for Saki after the Bonobo arc... If It was given there from the start, I will never question her intentions.... I believe her feelings just went up because of the forced homo-pairings.

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
Finally she signs her letter "With Love, Your Maria".
This with be normal IRL. But its always misunderstood in anime...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
In sum, Maria chose to go with Mamoru because he is helpless and is already doomed to fail, and coupled with her disgust for their society, it was the perfect opportunity to leave once and for all. I suspect that her disgust for the society includes how, although she loves Saki very much, unrealistic it is because they are to be wed to heterosexual partners in the end. Maria loves Saki but she had to leave because I don't think she could stand seeing Saki wed off to someone else. P.S., I think Maria also hated the fact that she was objectified in the society.
Yeah... I agree.. poor girl..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
1) The so-called "Bonobo arc" was meant to educate the viewer about the hypersexualized society they live in. Moreover, seeing as how controlling their society is, adolescent homosexuality is the perfect birth control. For the adults who fear the children very much, I think their biggest nightmare would be to have raging teens giving birth to children left and right. After all, it has been programmed in their genes to be sexual when stressed out.
That is how they think... Do you think it'll work same as we are IRL?

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Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
The director was not trying to confuse you. I think that is only your misunderstanding and confusion about the entire affair in the end, and your refusal to acknowledge that yes, it is an effective way to control the populace.
Everything will work out well if you make it work out in your script..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enpitsu View Post
Of course, it can't be helped that you are stuck with your own beliefs, from what I assume your own culture's homophobia. Seeing as how entrenched your origin is with Roman Catholicism (don't get me wrong, I grew up in the Philippines myself), it cannot be helped that you are so prejudiced, now can it?.
Scratches head I'm no RC dude... nor homophobic.... attacking based on my background would not prove anything.. unless I'm a priest....
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Old 2013-05-03, 07:45   Link #69
Icewolfnector
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
What I really don't understand is why is it so important whom she loves "more" (as if the situation was as simple!). It's like a weird ship war.

Obviously, she and Saki are much more than just friends with benefits. Obviously, she and Mamoru are not a forced relationship that Maria feels uncomfortable or unsatisfied with but a deep and close one. And Maria made the choice to give up everything she has, including her relationship with Saki, to stay with Mamoru to keep him safe and alive. At this point, at this display of love and care, I'd say it's totally irrelevant to argue about whom she loves "more" or "better." Romantic love is not all love that there is nor is it any "better" than non-romantic love.

(Not to mention, there's more to it than just "oh, I love him more" or "oh, I love her more but he needs me grumble grumble"... And given some developments that I think everyone knows already, I think it's pretty much a moot point anyway.)
Very nicely put. I think so to.
I think the problem for most people is that they can't accept, or it is just very difficult for them that someone can love more than one person equally. Be it the same form of love or different ones.
Thats most likely indepted to the fact that most societies are very monogamous and that feeling equally strong love for several people also isn't so commonplace.

Appart from that it is somehow sad we never saw what happened to Maria and Mamoru after they parted with Saki and Satoru. It just didn't feel like a proper farewell, they just dissapeared. Even though she left the letter and all there was still something missing for me.
Just a short glimps on there live after that would have been nice. I kind of feelt a bit helpless when they were gone and there was no hope of finding them left. Probably just like Saki feelt in a way.
Btw I wonder what happened to Maria, Mamoru and Shun when they were seperated from the others during the summer camp.
Funny thing is, those three were the ones who later all died in the series.

Sad Story makes me sad. Imo Maria deserved both of them.
Just wondering, but is there an Anime where one of the main guys/girls gets more than one partner in the end? ^^
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